Use of the Irish language on boards.ie

gleannuirce

Correct me if I am wrong but I can be banned for simply using my first language, the Irish language, on boards.ie.

And No, i am not simply interested in discussing issues related to the Irish language.

boards.ie to you but board.ie for me

Conor

gleannuirce wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but I can be banned for simply using my first language, the Irish language, on boards.ie.

And No, i am not simply interested in discussing issues related to the Irish language.

boards.ie to you but board.ie for me

This is not the place to discuss your previous issues with a moderator.

But no, you would not be banned for using Irish, unless you were doing so deliberately to be disruptive or to deliberately exclude those who do not speak Irish or if the charter for a given forum prohibited it (I don't know of any which do).

If you wish to discuss this topic further, please start a new thread.

gleannuirce

Thanks Conor, but do you not think this is the right thread? - the one that says "your feedback welcome".

I'm fed up of being marginalised on this issue. I am an Irish person who speaks Irish - please don't ask me to disappear to a ghetto board or treat me as a side-issue.

You say that posting in Irish is not in itself a reason to be banned.
Thank You.

But the owner of the site, Tom Dunne says, and I quote directly..

"If a post is deemed to disrupt a thread, then the moderator is well within his or her rights to sanction the person who made the post.
Irish, in a forum where English is the norm, could be deemed as disruptive."

So using Irish (non-disruptive and relevant) is allowed. Or it isn't.

Rabies

What it comes down to is, you could post something that most of the poster here can't read.
It is an english language based forum. Not an Irish, French, German, Polish etc. We have sub forums for those, granted they are often about the teaching of the language, but its a start.
If you post in another language other than english where the majority of the thread is already english then you will probably be instructed to post further comments in english.
Not trying to censor posts or restrict the freedom of speech, but make it more understandable to the general public.

Conor

gleannuirce wrote: »

Thanks Conor, but do you not think this is the right thread? - the one that says "your feedback welcome".

That thread was for feedback on the terms of use of the site which make no reference to language since that is a forum-by-forum issue, not a site-wide one.

I've moved your posts to a new thread to keep the original one on-topic.

You say that posting in Irish is not in itself a reason to be banned.
Thank You.

But the owner of the site, Tom Dunne says, and I quote directly..

Tom Dunne is not the (or even an) owner of the site. That said, this:

"If a post is deemed to disrupt a thread, then the moderator is well within his or her rights to sanction the person who made the post.
Irish, in a forum where English is the norm, could be deemed as disruptive."

is consistent with site policy.

So using Irish (non-disruptive and relevant) is allowed. Or it isn't.

The arbiter(s) of whether or not a post is disruptive is/are the moderator(s) of the forum the post is made in.

Using the Irish language may be disruptive in one thread and not in another. It's a matter of context.

Ultimately though, it's about respect for the others in the thread. If you post in Irish, you should either make sure that the readers of that thread can understand what you're saying, or provide a translation.

30% of our audience comes from outside of Ireland and of the 70% that visit from Ireland it's safe to assume that a large proportion of them will struggle with anything other than rudimentary Irish. Know your audience before you post in a language other than English or your posts may be unintelligible to those you're talking to.

nesf

One of the key problems is the moderation of comments in Irish. We do have a small number of mods who are native Irish speakers or who are fully fluent in the language but beyond them most mods won't be able to understand anything complicated in Irish. The second problem is responding to a thread, in English, with Irish divides the conversation by excluding those who don't speak the language from understanding the post in the thread. If a conversation was happening around a table in a pub in English among your average sample of Irish people who only have bits of school Irish on average, and you suddenly started speaking in Irish it would be decidedly odd to say the least.


As such, from the above, if someone posts solely in Irish on a forum that is conducted in English that I mod (i.e. not Teach na nGealt or Gaeilge (Irish)) then I'll ask them to post in English. Since I'm married to a native speaker and raising my children in the language one could say that I am sympathetic towards the language but I fail to see any good reason for posting in anything other than English in a forum where all the users are posting in English.

Tom Dunne

Ah, this all makes sense now.

A bit of background - gleannuirce and myself have exchanged PMs on this matter and I was utterly oblivious to the fact that he thought I owned this site. Since we couldn't agree on matters, I suggested he start a thread here in Feedback.

gleannuirce wrote: »

I'm fed up of being marginalised on this issue. I am an Irish person who speaks Irish - please don't ask me to disappear to a ghetto board or treat me as a side-issue.

I am going to cut to the chase here - lose the sense of entitlement. This is a privately owned website and the owners (not me) can do as they see fit. You are not being marginalised, you are not being oppressed you are being allowed to take part in an online community. If you don't like the way the community works, well then nobody is forcing you to take part.

gleannuirce wrote: »

But the owner of the site, Tom Dunne says, and I quote directly..

"If a post is deemed to disrupt a thread, then the moderator is well within his or her rights to sanction the person who made the post.
Irish, in a forum where English is the norm, could be deemed as disruptive."

Just for the record, it is also considered inappropriate to post the contents of a PM without the senders consent. I did not give you permission to post the contents of our correspondence here.

gleannuirce wrote: »

So using Irish (non-disruptive and relevant) is allowed. Or it isn't.

You appear to be struggling with some basic facts about the way the site works. As with any real world community, there are rules, regulations and customs that must be adhered to. It's not a black-and-white situation.

Bubs101

gleannuirce wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but I can be banned for simply using my first language, the Irish language, on boards.ie.

. How can Irish be your first language over English, seriously. Unless you just stepped out of Tir na N'og the language that you use first is English, the language that you speak to your friends is English and the language that you'd expect to use in a thread is English. I've seen Irish been used in threads a few times and every one of those was a trolling attempt.

If you actually want a discussion on a discussion board than using Irish is going to leave you with pretty much unanswered threads and is going to cut of the overwhelming majority of potential contributors for no good reason

OP, you can clearly use the english language so why bother posting in a language half of boards don't have any fluency in.

Either post in that forum's language or don't post at all..

I think its acceptable to post in Irish anywhere provided there is an English translation for the majority of us who's Irish is quite limited. Just don't expect a bi-lingual response!

nesf

Deleted User wrote: »

I think its acceptable to post in Irish anywhere provided there is an English translation for the majority of us who's Irish is quite limited. Just don't expect a bi-lingual response!

Yeah exactly my meaning when I said "posting solely in Irish". If someone wants to post in Irish and provide an English translation and allow people to be able to reply in English then I've no issues with it as a mod.

AckwelFoley

gleannuirce,

我认为，如果您张贴一个说法语的论坛的爱尔兰人，并且使用爱尔兰语是您的第一种语言的论据，我认为您会接受一点同情.

Annoying, isnt it?

Darragh

Deleted User wrote: »

I think its acceptable to post in Irish anywhere provided there is an English translation for the majority of us who's Irish is quite limited. Just don't expect a bi-lingual response!

Bang on the money on behalf of those who work for the owners of the site

Wibbs

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I am going to cut to the chase here - lose the sense of entitlement. This is a privately owned website and the owners (not me) can do as they see fit. You are not being marginalised, you are not being oppressed you are being allowed to take part in an online community. If you don't like the way the community works, well then nobody is forcing you to take part.

QFT

gandalf

Deleted User wrote: »

I think its acceptable to post in Irish anywhere provided there is an English translation for the majority of us who's Irish is quite limited. Just don't expect a bi-lingual response!

Thats a brilliant idea. So OP how about instead of whinging that boards.ie doesn't cater for you, that you instead show some good example to all those on boards who have limited Irish and post your contributions in Irish and English and maybe you will get some of us interested.

Now you will have to work hard if the others experience of the Irish Language is like mine. In second level I had two teachers, one was the weakest teacher I have ever encountered and the other was an alcoholic whose idea of teaching was to look out the window and let us read Peig for the whole class (yep showing my age there plus I had the English version of the book!).

So instead of expecting everything to be handed to you and whinging on that boards doesn't promote Irish (they do, theres a dedicated forum or two) how about you take up the excellent advice of dolanbaker there and in doing so show old codgers like me that those that want to promote the Irish language aren't a pack of whingers who expect things to be given to them.

whatduck

Deleted User wrote: »

I think its acceptable to post in Irish anywhere provided there is an English translation for the majority of us who's Irish is quite limited. Just don't expect a bi-lingual response!

The only problem I could see with that is how are we to know if the translation is accurate unless the mod of the relevant forum speaks Irish? Someone could troll a forum in Irish and than give a non troll English translation. I'd assume things like personal abuse still count no matter the language.

DeVore

If a troll speaks in a forest and no one can hear....is he still banned?

I like the idea of a translation, its both polite and educational. I personally would read both as I used to be fluent but sadly lack the vocab now and would read the translations to pick up the words.

However the insistance on this strikes me as having a bang of cordite off it, but lets see shall we....

DeV.

Sílim go mbeadh sé ina smaoineamh maith a cheadú nó dátheangach fiú a spreagadh-phoist ilteangacha i roinnt fóraim, fiú amháin má tá sé riachtanach google a úsáid chun aistriú a dhéanamh ar an obair

I think that it would be a good idea to allow or even encourage bi-lingual posts in some forums, even if it is necessary to use google translate to do the work.

Dudess

gleannuirce wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but I can be banned for simply using my first language, the Irish language, on boards.ie.

And No, i am not simply interested in discussing issues related to the Irish language.

boards.ie to you but board.ie for me

Hardly that simple. If you keep posting in Irish (so what if it's your first language? It's not this website's first language) on a thread being conducted in English and then you ignore a moderator's instruction to speak in the thread's language, then of course you'll be banned. It's got nothing to do with trying to "repress" Irish - it IS to do with derailment of the thread.

This isn't the first such Feedback thread - and the other one was similarly disingenuous.

Dudess

gandalf wrote: »

the other was an alcoholic whose idea of teaching was to look out the window and let us read Peig for the whole class (yep showing my age there plus I had the English version of the book!).

Jeez, were you in my class? :pac:

Thank god for that English translation of Peig - nabbed me a C- in higher level Irish.

doubleglaze

Aghaidh tuinc dait it fhios ál raidht to iús inglis an- bórds dat aghaidh í. Deost méic siúr iú speil tuings raidht...;)

copacetic

doubleglaze wrote: »

Aghaidh tuinc dait it fhios ál raidht to iús inglis an- bórds dat aghaidh í. Deost méic siúr iú speil tuings raidht...;)

que pasa? nicht verstehen.

dlofnep

I think it's a valid question, but I can also see the mods argument where they need to be able to understand a post so that they can moderate it.

I think however that if a topic is started in Irish, it should be let run in Irish regardless of the forum - with the user being made to translate it at the request of a moderator if they can't understand it.

I wrote a small translation application that uses google's translate API, which might be useful for moderator's who wish to understand a post. It won't be 100% accurate, but it will give you a good jist of the post. The link is available in the gaeilge forum.

It is an Irish forum, and while the posters mostly operate in English - I think that Irish should also be accomodated for where possible.

Xavi6

doubleglaze wrote: »

Aghaidh tuinc dait it fhios ál raidht to iús inglis an- bórds dat aghaidh í. Deost méic siúr iú speil tuings raidht...;)

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithris?

Xavi6

Xavi6 wrote: »

An bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithris?

cén fáth!

Black Swan

gleannuirce wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but I can be banned for simply using my first language, the Irish language, on boards.ie.

I've used an Irish word or phrase for emphasis (or a sense of community) embedded in a mostly English language post occasionally on several boards.ie forums during the past few years and never had a problem. Being understood by the boards.ie audience is important when posting, and you have a better chance of being understood in English (especially if the poster's or reader's Irish is as poorly developed as mine).:o

dlofnep

Might I make a suggestion?

Perhaps we could include a vbulletin plugin that would allow a user to translate a post from Irish into English (Not entirely sure of the technicalities, but might be possible with Google's Translate API).

This will allow users to post in Irish if they so choose, and allow moderation to be able to translate the post if they are curious. There seems to be a certain element of suspicion with regards of use of the Irish language, and I believe this needs to stop. Most people just want a chance to use it to discuss normal, everyday topics and aren't trying to intentionally annoy moderators.

Perhaps, with each post - optionally users could add 3 or 4 words that they have used in their post, and translate them - similar to what Foinse do at the end of their articles. This would allow users to learn new phrases with each post.

I would be more than happy to personally research the possibilities of having an automatic translation script for posts and do the hard-work. I might not be able to complete it, as I haven't worked with PHP in some time - but I'm more than willing to give it a shot.

Let me know what you think.

-Chris-

I don't understand why this is an issue, why plug-ins are needed, why policy needs to be stated etc.



My wife is French. I don't know any French.

When I go with her to Paris to see her family, they speak English when I'm in the room because it would be rude to exclude me from the conversation.
French is their first language, but manners dictate that they speak English.


Ideally I'll dust off my Junior Cert French at some point, but for the sake of one week per year I haven't gotten around to it yet.


This is a forum where the primary language is English, where many posters don't or can't speak Irish, where many posters aren't Irish-born, where there are specific fora that cater to the Irish speaker.

Why on earth would you be so intransigent as to blurt out Irish in an English thread and instantly exclude anyone who doesn't speak the language? It just seems rude to me.


My €0.02

Dav

The offer of leg work is very much appreciated dlofnep, but I doubt it's something the tech team here in the office are likely to ever have time to implement as the cost of development time vs payoff means it probably doesn't make sense (I don't decide what the tech team work on btw, I'm making an assumption based on what I know their current workload and plans to be).

If people want to post in Irish (or indeed any language) on a forum where English is spoken, they're welcome to as long as they provide an English translation to what they're saying. I think that's the fairest on everyone - English is the mother tongue of most Irish people and certainly for the vast majority of Boards.ie users.

If people want to learn (or teach) the language, it's best to do that on the Gaeilge forum or Teach na nGealt where it's the primary language and not disruptive to "everyday business" of the forum.

Dav

doubleglaze

-Chris- wrote: »

My wife is French. I don't know any French.

When I go with her to Paris to see her family, they speak English when I'm in the room because it would be rude to exclude me from the conversation.
French is their first language, but manners dictate that they speak English.

Why on earth would you be so intransigent as to blurt out Irish in an English thread and instantly exclude anyone who doesn't speak the language? It just seems rude to me.

Seems to me that the intransigence and the rudeness is more on your side. Apprenez un peu de francais quand meme!

-Chris-

doubleglaze wrote: »

Seems to me that the intransigence and the rudeness is more on your side. Apprenez un peu de francais quand meme!

I do feel very guilty for not knowing/remembering my JC French, and I can see how I'm inconveniencing them, but my experience is that language fluency is based on practice.
I'm only in a French-speaking environment one week per year, so even the bit I force myself to learn is rusty/forgotten by the next year.

For them, however, they are bilingual, their TV is bilingual, their ads are bilingual, they get lots of practice, and they're normally happy to get even more practice.


The point remains - I don't know French and it would be a big deal for me to learn it, they do know English and can speak it with little inconvenience. Therefore we all speak English as it's the most inclusive way of doing things.

I believe the same principle for boards.ie - it's not so much whether you can speak a particular language, it's more about whether you should speak it and what effect it has on the readers that it potentially excludes.

faceman

Never mind irish, there are english speaking posters who could do with translating their english posts into english!

Overheal

Google Translate has come so far, but it still only hardly stands up to scrutiny:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055678273 (and Translation)

I dont think a vBulletin API would fare any better right now. Reading that just gives me a headache.

dlofnep

Yeah, it does have a bit of a way to go Overheal. I agree with you, but it's a good start. The only problem with translation facilities (other than not being 100% accurate), is that if someone mispells a word, it won't even begin to entertain translation it.

Still, it was just a thought. I'd rather try and do something productive with regards to development than complain. But if people aren't in favour of a translation plugin, we can just translate our posts individually.

Overheal

no solution would be perfect. you then have to trust the person is translating themselves correctly, ie. Translation "I cordially disagree" [Actual: "Wrong again you retarded bastard"]

Good point on the typos too. I could just call someone a leathchean and youd be none the wiser.

After that it comes down to relying on Irish reading posters to Report Posts and Irish Speaking Mdoerators to moderate those posts. I thing as Nesf pointed out, there isnt enough manpower or skill on board right now to handle the language barrier on a sitewide scale.

sceptre

Dudess wrote: »

Thank god for that English translation of Peig - nabbed me a C- in higher level Irish.

There was an English translation of Peig?

Dammit to hell, I wish I'd known that, er, a number of years ago.

nesf

doubleglaze wrote: »

Seems to me that the intransigence and the rudeness is more on your side. Apprenez un peu de francais quand meme!

Yeah but realistically you'd want to be fluent in the language to stop using English and fluency is a very long way from Junior Cert French.

gleannuirce

Tom Dunne,

I don't know why I thought you were the owner of the site. Of course I accept that you aren't and apologize for my wrong assumption.

You assert "You are not being marginalised, you are not being oppressed..."

I believe I am being marginalized so we'll have to disagree on that. And I never claimed to be oppressed, though banning me for commenting in Irish on a discussion concerning the Irish language in planning matters is oppressive enough behaviour in my opinion.

You assert "it is also considered inappropriate to post the contents of a PM without the senders consent".
Fair enough, but at least I quoted you, and didn't accuse you of claiming to be oppressed or whatever.

You further assert "As with any real world community, there are rules, regulations and customs that must be adhered to."
I live in the real world Tom. Real house, Real mortgage, Real job (thankfully) and Real-life gaeltacht Irish speaker. And really don't like patronizing invites to live in the real world.


Bubs101: you ask "How can Irish be your first language over English, seriously"

Seriously Bubs there's loads of us. Come and visit. Or google 'gaeltacht'.


Ads by Google:You state "Either post in that forum's language or don't post at all.. "

I admire your honesty AbG, but don't make me feel marginalised please.

snyper snipes with.....
gleannuirce,

我认为，如果您张贴一个说法语的论坛的爱尔兰人，并且使用爱尔兰语是您的第一种语言的论据，我认为您会接受一点同情.

Annoying, isnt it?

No snyper, just silly.


Chris writes about his family situation

"French is their first language, but manners dictate that they speak English"

Chris, I think you need to reflect on that one.

As to the posters who have supported my view to some extent, particularly concerning the techy translating possibilities Thank You.

I am sure that some of you realise that boards.ie is a powerful medium in Ireland. I would like to be a small part of it and I don't think I should be banned for no other reason that contributing in Irish.

And Tom Dunne, I haven't got a "sense of entitlement" but I am struggling to get one.

TouchingVirus

I think you're being entirely unreasonable on this gleannuirce. We can't tell you how to feel, you feel you're being marginalised whereas majority of the people on this thread seem to be of the opinion that you're marginalising yourself.

If you walked up to me on the street and tried to talk to me in Irish I would politely request that you spoke in English. If you persisted I would cease any form of contact with you and go about my daily business. English is the first language of the majority of boards.ie users, you marginalise yourself by posting in Irish on a forum where English is the discussion language in all but the specified places.

There are many users here who think a compromise is that you can post in Irish in the other boards here if you also provide an English translation. It has been explained that moderating posts in the Irish language is a non-runner for most of the moderators here on boards.ie and thus makes it impossible for them to determine if what you are posting obeys the rules of the forum. This is a perfectly valid reason to disallow you posting in Irish without an English equivalent and if you refuse to obey the rules then action taken against you is your own fault.

You are the bilingual poster (fair play) but the onus is on you to ensure you can be understood, insisting out of plain stubbornness to only talk Irish on English speaking fora really is bad manners. The rule disallowing text speak is a similar rule to the Irish one, only there is no dedicated txtspk forum - People find it hard to read, hard to understand and it disrupts the flow of a thread, yet there is no youth here on boards.ie claiming 2 b marginalsd.

You see snyper's post as silly. It's ironic really, because that's how a majority of posters would see your post when slotted into an English speaking thread.

I also think you were being hypersensitive to Tom's real-world comment. I certainly don't see any implied invitation to live in the real world in it. I do, however, see plenty of room for argument that your insistence on speaking Irish outside of a place where Irish is the first language is sheer folly. If you went into a Pub and asked for drinks, I know many who wouldn't understand and would request it in English. If you went into a shop, the same thing would happen. Even applying for jobs you wouldn't get anywhere if you insisted on speaking Irish all the time.

As Tom pointed out, and you seem to have missed, everywhere has rules and customs. The rules of boards.ie state English is the language to converse in, if you don't converse in English you break the rules. Breaking the rules is a bannable offence. If you don't like it, don't post on boards.ie. By the way, you agreed to these rules when you signed up to the forum.

AnimalRights

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I am going to cut to the chase here - lose the sense of entitlement. This is a privately owned website and the owners (not me) can do as they see fit. You are not being marginalised, you are not being oppressed you are being allowed to take part in an online community. If you don't like the way the community works, well then nobody is forcing you to take part.

This is such a broken record trotted out.

TouchingVirus

AnimalRights wrote: »

This is such a broken record trotted out.

That's a fair point to make when people are just being stubborn, refusing to change their ways and insisting they are right.

In this case there's been a suggested compromise in the form of a bilingual post. In fact it's been encouraged by a number of people here and I'd be all for it myself -I could improve the rusty ordinary level LC Irish I've got

If the OP doesn't compromise then a parting of the ways would really be the best course of action, boards.ie can't bend over backwards to accomodate everybody - majority rules and all that.

gandalf

AnimalRights wrote: »

This is such a broken record trotted out.

And your solution is what exactly? You seem to criticise an awful lot but never come up with a fix? Revolution can be boring too man.

gleannuirce

TV,

I know that the rules state I can post in English only. You will note that I am abiding to this rule on this board and others.

But I happen to think that an irish board like this should allow me to post in irish. You might think I am stubborn, perhaps you think all irish people who use irish as their first language are stubborn? Have you considered that your insistence on compulsory English appears stubborn to me?

Now you can tell me (and you do) that these are the rules - compulsory English - take it or leave it.

But I still don't agree that I should be banned simply for posting in Irish.

Just because I can post in English shouldn't mean I have to.

The reason I state that posting gibberish is silly by the way is because posting gibberish is silly. Equating one of our national languages to a series of squares may be a valid, smart argument to you, but not to "stubborn" old me.

gandalf

gleannuirce I notice you selectively ignored the bi-lingual option? What is your opinion on that? Does it not suit your "jump on the cross" agenda?

You're right virtual communities like boards are powerful mediums and if you are clever you can use them to further your obvious love of the Irish language. If you are the opposite you will reinforce peoples bad experiences with the language from when it was taught to them. Most of us were not lucky enough to grow up or live anywhere where Irish was relevant to our everyday lives.

AnimalRights

gandalf wrote: »

And your solution is what exactly? You seem to criticise an awful lot but never come up with a fix? Revolution can be boring too man.

My solution would be to never ban anyone, leave that for Chinese and Iranian website forums.
You've never asked me for a fix before, is this your 1st time?

gandalf

AnimalRights wrote: »

My solution would be to never ban anyone, leave that for Chinese and Iranian website forums.
You've never asked me for a fix before, is this your 1st time?

Do you actually have an opinion on what this thread is about or are you just firing your normal anti-moderation statements up for show?

AnimalRights

aaahhh you've lost your Modship!!
We are now gunslinger to gunslinger.....make my day!

Zaph

AnimalRights wrote: »

My solution would be to never ban anyone, leave that for Chinese and Iranian website forums.

Hardly realistic now, is it? If we allowed absolute free speech and never banned anyone the site would be overrun with spam, porn and the type of malevolent idiocy tha's prevalent on other sites, probably within a week or two. We'd then immediately lose at least 95% of our current posters and the site would cease to exist in its current, or any proper usable format.

gandalf

So you don't have any opinion on what this thread is actually about then?

(Your losing it man I stepped down as a moderator on boards at the beginning of the summer :rolleyes:)

AnimalRights

To Zaph: what's wrong with porn?
we were all made that way.

Zaph

AnimalRights wrote: »

To Zaph: what's wrong with porn?
we were all made that way.

I never said there was anything wrong with porn, as long as it's in the right place. A discussion forum that permits under-18s to join is not the appropriate place for it.