xmas day

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 11:11am #1

I'm split up with my ex and access to the children is court ordered. Now I reckon he will turn up on xmas day....... he regularly turns at my house and I dont let him in.

He hurt me really badly and I dont feel like I should have to put up with him on xmas day playing happy families with my kids afterall he is the one who left us.

I have put a hell of a lot of time and effort into making xmas special for my kids with no contribution other than normal maintenace from him. I cannot go into detail here but the circumstances he left me in have prevented me from being able to work so money is a big issue & will be for the foreseeable future

We dont communicate as he is very fond of the legal route, recording everything etc.

Recently I have got the impression that his feelings towards me have changed (in a good way) but still he has not done anything to put things right.

How do I get tru xmas day with him sitting in my house half the day bringing mad expensive presents but not even a card for me?

Before people judge me as being the typical woman who prevents daddy from seeing kids, my friends and his family agree with me. Ive been tru hell in the last year with him and unfortunately I do have feelings for him still

ash23 · 18-12-2009 11:49am

why would he bring a card for you? You're his ex. He wouldn't be bringing a present either.
If he is supposed to have access to the kids on Christmas day then you should allow it. Even if he isn't, you should allow it anyway.
Unless he is abusive or a danger to you or the kids then you need to put the kids first.
It isn't about you and him or your feelings towards him or his towards you. It's about the kids and the fact that he is their father and they will probably want to see him.

Exs can be right sh1ts. Trust me, I know.
But at the end of it all there has to be ONE person who will put themselves and their needs out of the picture and focus on what is best for the kids.
It took me a long time to do this and my daughters relationship with my ex suffered because I was so concerned with being right, my feelings and my hurt. It was so hard but I eventually managed to take a big step back and just let it go for my daughters sake.

We are now at the point where we can have a civil conversation. By no means friends but life is easier and now that his relationship with the child is not going to be subject to dealing with me, he is more inclined to make an effort with her.

So may advice, take a BIG step in the right direction. Invite him to call over on christmas morning to see the kids opening their gifts. Advise him you have to be somewhere at 12 so he knows he's not there for the day. Offer for him to collect them another day to get some quality time with them.
If you take control and act fairly then he might ease off on turning up unannounced.
It takes time for things to settle down. Its been a year and a half for me and it's only the last few months things have been ok between us.
It takes time but it definitely takes one person to be the bigger person for a while. It might as well be you.

Taltos · 18-12-2009 11:50am

If he likes to use the law to his advantage then you must too.

You have said access is court ordered - so work strictly within the guidelines set down there.
If he is in breach of this then he is at fault here.

Christmas can be a difficult time for people - but stay strong and do what is right for you and the children.
If he does not have agreed access to them on Christmas day - can you go elsewhere - spend the day with family or something where you will have the emotional support you need? And where you will not be expected to be - just make sure your mobile etc is turned off.

However if he has access granted for whatever period on the day then he has every right to see his children - however your face does not need to be rubbed into it - so again follow the guidelines of the order - what location / supervised etc.

I know it is not nice sometimes playing these things black and white like this but the law rarely allows for grey areas. Also if he is warming to you - please take it slowly - and only if you want that too - remember to someone who records your conversations as a tool - well you need to be careful he is not playing games with you.

ascuteasabutton · 18-12-2009 11:51am

scroogegirl wrote: »

I'm split up with my ex and access to the children is court ordered. Now I reckon he will turn up on xmas day....... he regularly turns at my house and I dont let him in.

He hurt me really badly and I dont feel like I should have to put up with him on xmas day playing happy families with my kids afterall he is the one who left us.

I have put a hell of a lot of time and effort into making xmas special for my kids with no contribution other than normal maintenace from him. I cannot go into detail here but the circumstances he left me in have prevented me from being able to work so money is a big issue & will be for the foreseeable future

We dont communicate as he is very fond of the legal route, recording everything etc.

Recently I have got the impression that his feelings towards me have changed (in a good way) but still he has not done anything to put things right.

How do I get tru xmas day with him sitting in my house half the day bringing mad expensive presents but not even a card for me?

Before people judge me as being the typical woman who prevents daddy from seeing kids, my friends and his family agree with me. Ive been tru hell in the last year with him and unfortunately I do have feelings for him still

Sorry to hear that you are in this type of situation its horrible at anytime of the year but even more difficult on Christmas Day.

Just in my own experiences and giving it from a childs point of view my parents seperated when I was 5 and I never saw my Dad on Christmas Day til last year when he came to our house for dinner(i'm 26 now) and for years I held alot of resentment towards my mother for not allowing him near the house at Christmas. Its very very hard on a child as they don't understand the ins and outs of what goes on between parents and they could not saying they will but could see you as the bad person that won't let them see their Dad at Christmas!

I really really feel for you coz I know it will ruin your Christmas if he is there! Good Luck with whatever you decide

Taltos · 18-12-2009 11:54am

ash23 wrote: »

why would he bring a card for you? You're his ex. He wouldn't be bringing a present either.
If he is supposed to have access to the kids on Christmas day then you should allow it. Even if he isn't, you should allow it anyway.
Unless he is abusive or a danger to you or the kids then you need to put the kids first.
It isn't about you and him or your feelings towards him or his towards you. It's about the kids and the fact that he is their father and they will probably want to see him.

Exs can be right sh1ts. Trust me, I know.
But at the end of it all there has to be ONE person who will put themselves and their needs out of the picture and focus on what is best for the kids.
It took me a long time to do this and my daughters relationship with my ex suffered because I was so concerned with being right, my feelings and my hurt. It was so hard but I eventually managed to take a big step back and just let it go for my daughters sake.

We are now at the point where we can have a civil conversation. By no means friends but life is easier and now that his relationship with the child is not going to be subject to dealing with me, he is more inclined to make an effort with her.

So may advice, take a BIG step in the right direction. Invite him to call over on christmas morning to see the kids opening their gifts. Advise him you have to be somewhere at 12 so he knows he's not there for the day. Offer for him to collect them another day to get some quality time with them.
If you take control and act fairly then he might ease off on turning up unannounced.
It takes time for things to settle down. Its been a year and a half for me and it's only the last few months things have been ok between us.
It takes time but it definitely takes one person to be the bigger person for a while. It might as well be you.

Actually - I really like the above as well.
Hopefully you both can work it out - but be careful of the recording stuff still.
Part of the reason I am so neg on my other post is I have a family member going thru this and her ex is a real sh1t - doesn't care about the kids - all about scoring points - may have coloured my reply.

Danniboo · 18-12-2009 11:55am

scroogegirl wrote: »

I'm split up with my ex and access to the children is court ordered. Now I reckon he will turn up on xmas day....... he regularly turns at my house and I dont let him in.

He hurt me really badly and I dont feel like I should have to put up with him on xmas day playing happy families with my kids afterall he is the one who left us.

They are both your kids. His hurting you does not give you the right to stop him seeing his kids unless he was abusive in some way or is a bad influence on the kids.

I have put a hell of a lot of time and effort into making xmas special for my kids with no contribution other than normal maintenace from him. I cannot go into detail here but the circumstances he left me in have prevented me from being able to work so money is a big issue & will be for the foreseeable future

Be greatful he pays regular maintenance, so many don't. Why can't you work?

We dont communicate as he is very fond of the legal route, recording everything etc.

Doesn't sound like he has much choice

Recently I have got the impression that his feelings towards me have changed (in a good way) but still he has not done anything to put things right.

How do I get tru xmas day with him sitting in my house half the day bringing mad expensive presents but not even a card for me?

So you would rather he didn't come and bring nice gifts for your children because he doesn't have a card for you. Selfish.

Before people judge me as being the typical woman who prevents daddy from seeing kids, my friends and his family agree with me. Ive been tru hell in the last year with him and unfortunately I do have feelings for him still

They're your friends and family of course they're going to be on your side.

I, I, I my kids, he's hurt me. No card for me. I still have feelings. Not once did you say our poor kids.

Not meant to be a personal attack just my opinion on view of things, if you can elaborate why he is such a ba****d or why he shouldn't see his kids on Christmas day, I might understand.

Xterminator · 18-12-2009 12:00pm

Taltos wrote: »

If he likes to use the law to his advantage then you must too.

You have said access is court ordered - so work strictly within the guidelines set down there.
If he is in breach of this then he is at fault here.

Christmas can be a difficult time for people - but stay strong and do what is right for you and the children.
If he does not have agreed access to them on Christmas day - can you go elsewhere - spend the day with family or something where you will have the emotional support you need? And where you will not be expected to be - just make sure your mobile etc is turned off.

However if he has access granted for whatever period on the day then he has every right to see his children - however your face does not need to be rubbed into it - so again follow the guidelines of the order - what location / supervised etc.

I know it is not nice sometimes playing these things black and white like this but the law rarely allows for grey areas. Also if he is warming to you - please take it slowly - and only if you want that too - remember to someone who records your conversations as a tool - well you need to be careful he is not playing games with you.

i disagree entirely with this post.

if it was just you, then thats how you should play it, but as the other posters said, you should bear the childrens best interests at heart.

If you can organise a visit, with clear start and end times, it will set your mind at ease somewhat. (Have somewhere to go, and make it clear to your ex before the visit).

and yes, you will feel uncomfortable, and that's not ideal, but spending Christmas with their dad will be priceless for your kids. and thats worth feeling uncomfortable for a couple of hours.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 12:07pm

To the person who said its all about me.... well Lets just say you have no idea what ive been tru or what I have sacrifised in the last year so yes I do feel that that on the one day of the year I should not be made feel this way. I cant go into too much detail here on such a public forum.

We are not talking about daddy of the year here. Taltos has it in one. A lot of point scoring. Extreme bitterness from him even though I was the one who he left

There is no xmas day access. I let it happen last year only for daddy to turn up over one hour late and fall asleep with the result being I never made it to my family for xmas dinner in time. He doesnt do guidelines.

He has recently got a kick in the arse from his own family for his behaviour and as I said has started to change his attitude to me. It seems like he still has feelings but knows hes messed up but then I cud be getting that wrong.

There is also the give an inch, take a mile problem

ash23 · 18-12-2009 12:07pm

Also, be careful of your family and friends. They are, of course, on your side. I know mine actively encouraged me to stop my ex seeing the child when he was doing all his messing around. And he was totally acting the b*llox but an awful lot of it was aimed at me truth be told. They hated the way he was treating me, hated the way he was treating the child. They hated him.

But in my heart of hearts I had to look at myself and what I was doing to make the situation worse and what I could do to make it better. Not for me, but for my daughter. It took a lot out of me to just let it go. He was making demands. I had moved out of our house, I had encouraged access at all times (too much if I'm honest as it was almost badgering). I used to argue over every stupid comment and remark. And I just stopped. If a smart remark came my way I let it go. If he cancelled on the child, I let it go. If he rearranged the days and it suited me , I didn't throw up obstacles just for the sake of it. he insisted I not call him about the child, only text him. I wasn't allowed to talk to him when he picked her up. It was all BS but I let it go.

My family were raging with me as they felt I was being a doormat. And for a bit I felt that way myself. But it worked. I feel more empowered now as he cannot get under my skin. I don't let the little things bug me and therefore he doesn't do them. A lot of it was about him pushing my buttons and he no longer knows how so doesn't bother and vice versa.
And on the plus side, he is definitely making much more of an effort with her than he has in the last year. It has paid off. She still has two parents in her life who are involved. Who can, when necessary, be in the same place at the same time for her sake.

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 12:09pm

Ok, as a guest in your home for Christmas, yes the decent thing to do is to acknowlege your existence by including you in the card, or bringing a token gift. Quite frankly I think it is ****ty of anyone to show up on a doorstep on Christmas day without something like this, ex or no ex, so I disagree with ash23 on that one big time, but nonetheless even if he doesnt be the better person and take the high ground even if it is secretely thinking to yourself that you are superior to him. Sort of like you would think of children, you know when they do or say something ****ty you dont retaliate because THEY ARE NOT YOUR EQUAL, they dont know any better kind of attitude.

You have a right to a nice Christmas too and if you are upset then the child will pick up on it.

My father came over every christmas and I can say that I would have often preferred if he were not there, not because they were his fault, but because he set off my mother [like doing things like digging in to the food before everyone was seated]. But who knows, maybe if he wasnt there, I would be saying the opposite.

Im sure you have been through hell, I think some of us could give be tour guides for the inferno at this point, and when you still have feelings it can be even worse imo because all of that has to be repressed and the repressed eroticism can come out in all sorts of pervere ways.

Anyhow, I digress here. But if he is so legally bound then wouldnt he stick to the access arrangements or does he want to cherry pick his legal contracts?

Maybe ask him why is is not sticking to the court order?

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 12:17pm

Me again

His family are also on my side but have to stand by their son. His father is ashamed of how I have been treated. Wanted to clarify that

And yes of course the kids will pick up on the tension. He will have plenty of access over the xmas period but he demands xmas day

Imagine sitting in your own home on xmas morning not knowing when you will get that knock on the door. He wanted a court order, got it and now seems unable to stick to it.

ash23 · 18-12-2009 12:18pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Ok, as a guest in your home for Christmas, yes the decent thing to do is to acknowlege your existence by including you in the card, or bringing a token gift. Quite frankly I think it is ****ty of anyone to show up on a doorstep on Christmas day without something like this,

See, the thing is, with an ex, being polite is not always the order of the day. A gift may be seen by him as a loaded thing. Does he get her one? Will she read too much into it if he does? What does he get her? If it's a personal thing he knows she'll like, will she think it's a gesture that he still loves her. If it's an impersonal thing, will she get upset over it. I'll be dropping my daughter to ex on Christmas eve for a while. No way will I be bringing a gift for him from me. She has a little gift for daddy and a card that says "to daddy from jnr". My name will not be on it. I will not expect anything from him.

She still has feelings for this man. Imo, she is best to expect the worst from him in relation to things like this.
Because expectation leads to disappointment leads to anger and fights.
If he shows up with a card or a gift then great, what a lovely gesture and how nice of him. But should she expect one? No. Definitely not. Better for her own sake.
At the end of the day, if the kids weren't involved, she wouldn't even be in contact with him. Never mind exchanging gifts and cards. Tbh, you just have to take a business approach to it. He is nothing to her anymore. Owes her nothing, not even consideration. He has obligations to his kids, as does she, but thats it. Sad as it may seem, it's now more of a business relationship than a personal one.

Kimia · 18-12-2009 12:41pm

Danniboo wrote: »

They're your friends and family of course they're going to be on your side.

I, I, I my kids, he's hurt me. No card for me. I still have feelings. Not once did you say our poor kids.

Not meant to be a personal attack just my opinion on view of things, if you can elaborate why he is such a ba****d or why he shouldn't see his kids on Christmas day, I might understand.

I agree with this. I also don't mean to cause any offence or attack anyone, but your post doesn't really say anything about how the kids will be affected, just you.

But I don't understand why he should have to bring her a card? I agree with Ash too - he has an obligation to his kids but not her.

Danniboo · 18-12-2009 12:45pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

To the person who said its all about me.... well Lets just say you have no idea what ive been tru or what I have sacrifised in the last year so yes I do feel that that on the one day of the year I should not be made feel this way. I cant go into too much detail here on such a public forum.

We are not talking about daddy of the year here. Taltos has it in one. A lot of point scoring. Extreme bitterness from him even though I was the one who he left

There is no xmas day access. I let it happen last year only for daddy to turn up over one hour late and fall asleep with the result being I never made it to my family for xmas dinner in time. He doesnt do guidelines.

He has recently got a kick in the arse from his own family for his behaviour and as I said has started to change his attitude to me. It seems like he still has feelings but knows hes messed up but then I cud be getting that wrong.

There is also the give an inch, take a mile problem

This seems to be the real issue, you're basically punishing your kids until he decides he wants you back and has feelings for you. I've seen this from the other side of the fence. My parents split when I was 10 after years of abuse. Still she never once stopped him seeing us even when he didn't bother paying maintenance. As for me not knowing what you've been through no but then again you've invited people to offer their advice and opinions so we can only work with the information you provide. You never said you don't know what my kids have been through.

Nevyn · 18-12-2009 12:47pm

scoogegirl wrote: »

Me again

His family are also on my side but have to stand by their son. His father is ashamed of how I have been treated. Wanted to clarify that

And yes of course the kids will pick up on the tension. He will have plenty of access over the xmas period but he demands xmas day

Imagine sitting in your own home on xmas morning not knowing when you will get that knock on the door. He wanted a court order, got it and now seems unable to stick to it.

You have been through a lot and you are hurting and you still having feelings for him and it seem you are still clinging on to hope he will change and you will get back together.

You are letting that hope and those feeling twist things so that you are making the focus of the day about him and when he will arrive and what he will do.

You have to stop that.

Make your plans for the day with your children and with your family, esp if you are going to them for dinner. Let him know he can visit at a certain time of the day, say from 10am to an hour before you are due to leave to go visiting yourself. If he turns up he turns up, you have to ignore his stroppy behaviour no matter how hard it is, for the sake of the kids.

If he turns up when you are due to leave the house, tough, he can follow you to your parents or call back later, you have to start putting your foot down.

ash23 · 18-12-2009 12:49pm

scoogegirl wrote: »

Me again

His family are also on my side but have to stand by their son. His father is ashamed of how I have been treated. Wanted to clarify that

My exs family were on my side too. But time passes and he is their son and essentially, I'm just the mother of their grandaughter/niece. I still get on grand with them but I no longer consider myself to have them as allies per se. Their anger dissipated far quicker than mine and thats understandable too.

And yes of course the kids will pick up on the tension. He will have plenty of access over the xmas period but he demands xmas day

There will only be tension if you allow there to be. Also, of course he wants to see them on Christmas day. I'd be distraught if I didn't see my child on christmas day.

Imagine sitting in your own home on xmas morning not knowing when you will get that knock on the door. He wanted a court order, got it and now seems unable to stick to it.

So TAKE CONTROL.
Tell him he can call xmas morning at 8am until 12pm or something like that.
When he is leaving tell him he is to collect them at his appointed time. Tell him he is not to call by unannounced, that you are willing to make an effort for special occasions such as xmas and birthdays, but that if he continues to call unannounced you will not be answering the door and you will not be deviating from access, even for special occasions.
Dangle the carrott, show him you can be reasonable if he can. Show him he stands to lose something by calling unannounced. Stand up for yourself and take control.
But do whats right by the kids. Just because he's being an assh0le doesn't mean you need to do the same.

PopUp · 18-12-2009 1:09pm

Seriously, everything ash23 has said is absolutely right. You have been put in a very tough position and I know it must be awful to hear that yet again you have to be the bigger person - but you do. It's not about you, and it's not about him, it's about your children's Christmas. They need to see their dad. Take ash's advice about boundaries etc. Honestly it is hard but the if you can be the bigger person you will be so much happier in the long run.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 1:24pm

OP why don't you and the kids go to his parents house say from 11-1pm or something, then they can see their dad and their grandparents - you then get to leave when you want. There can be no ugly scenes and he gets to see the kids...

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 2:07pm

ash23 wrote: »

See, the thing is, with an ex, being polite is not always the order of the day. A gift may be seen by him as a loaded thing. Does he get her one? Will she read too much into it if he does? What does he get her? If it's a personal thing he knows she'll like, will she think it's a gesture that he still loves her. If it's an impersonal thing, will she get upset over it. I'll be dropping my daughter to ex on Christmas eve for a while. No way will I be bringing a gift for him from me. She has a little gift for daddy and a card that says "to daddy from jnr". My name will not be on it. I will not expect anything from him.

She still has feelings for this man. Imo, she is best to expect the worst from him in relation to things like this.
Because expectation leads to disappointment leads to anger and fights.
If he shows up with a card or a gift then great, what a lovely gesture and how nice of him. But should she expect one? No. Definitely not. Better for her own sake.
At the end of the day, if the kids weren't involved, she wouldn't even be in contact with him. Never mind exchanging gifts and cards. Tbh, you just have to take a business approach to it. He is nothing to her anymore. Owes her nothing, not even consideration. He has obligations to his kids, as does she, but thats it. Sad as it may seem, it's now more of a business relationship than a personal one.

Actually even in business there are protocols and considerations to be expected, there are standards.

Even in business relationships you are polite, send thank yous, and arrange meetings, show up on time and are professional. In fact MORE is expected in a business relationship than in a family one.

Not that I agree with the paradigm of a business relationship here. Its a family with a history and that has to be considered too.

And if you are dropping into your ex's for christmas to see your daughter and spend christmas, then it is a good gesture to bring a bottle of wine or some small token for the house. This is basic stuff. If you hate him that much that you cant do that, then dont go to his house.

At the same time, like with any other type of guest, if they dont do that, you dont make a big stink about it or anything like that,you overlook it, but im just saying it's not wrong to bring a gestural token gift. FFS its Christmas. If the soldiers in WW1 could put down their weapons no reason we cant.

But if you want to keep it strictly business, stick to the court order.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 2:42pm

I think what everyone is forgetting here is that there is a court order in place. He is not sticking to it. He turns up unannounced whenever he feels like it. I dont let him in. I have had abuse at my hall door etc. Why should I have had to pay thousands in solicitors fees just to let him walze in? Why should I have to spend xmas day feeling like this?

Tragically the kids in these circumstances wont know any different. (think severe disability) So I have put them first. I have sacificed my whole life for them. I do a very hard job every day of the week, 24/7 as a carer. This is what he walked (ran from) so the people posting that its all about me, well that is very insulting. I am most certainly not punishing my kids. The court order is in place and I stick to it.

What I actully meant about the card/ present is that he does not contribute to the costs of christmas that comes with kids and everything else needed at xmas. He promised in court he would. It hasnt happened. It should also be noted, money is no object for him.

Now after he ruins my day he will head off home and have a great time with the family.

I have tried the boundries, he doesnt get time keeping etc whatsoever.

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 2:44pm

ascuteasabutton wrote: »

Sorry to hear that you are in this type of situation its horrible at anytime of the year but even more difficult on Christmas Day.

Just in my own experiences and giving it from a childs point of view my parents seperated when I was 5 and I never saw my Dad on Christmas Day til last year when he came to our house for dinner(i'm 26 now) and for years I held alot of resentment towards my mother for not allowing him near the house at Christmas. Its very very hard on a child as they don't understand the ins and outs of what goes on between parents and they could not saying they will but could see you as the bad person that won't let them see their Dad at Christmas!

I really really feel for you coz I know it will ruin your Christmas if he is there! Good Luck with whatever you decide

My father was always there for christmas and there were always arguments. He was also also there for graduations, confirmations, etc etc and it got to the point where I started hiding information about things like awards ceremonies, graduations, parent teacher things, family day at school, etc etc because I didnt like being in the middle of it. So sometimes it is better to have one parent there. Or in my case it was better to have neither.

Danniboo · 18-12-2009 2:52pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

My father was always there for christmas and there were always arguments. He was also also there for graduations, confirmations, etc etc and it got to the point where I started hiding information about things like awards ceremonies, graduations, parent teacher things, family day at school, etc etc because I didnt like being in the middle of it. So sometimes it is better to have one parent there. Or in my case it was better to have neither.

But would you not agree kids should be able to have the chance to decide

ash23 · 18-12-2009 2:53pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Actually even in business there are protocols and considerations to be expected, there are standards.

Even in business relationships you are polite, send thank yous, and arrange meetings, show up on time and are professional. In fact MORE is expected in a business relationship than in a family one.

Not that I agree with the paradigm of a business relationship here. Its a family with a history and that has to be considered too.

But by her having expectations of him, it's going to lead to her being let down. By her expecting him to do the decent thing when he doesn't usually, she's setting herself up for a fall. Maybe in years to come they can play nicey nice and genuinely mean it, but at the moment there is unrequited love, anger, bitterness and animosity so I think gift giving is a bit much to expect. I think if they can be civil then thats doing really well.
I have a couple of friends who are no longer with their kids dads. They have good relations with the dads of these kids. Both dads call over xmas morning to see the kids and go to events etc. They call each other to organise things about the kids and all is well with the world. NEITHER of them will be buying their exs gifts and neither will be recieving. The kids will but not the adults. In my opinion this is the norm. I very much doubt that in the early stages of a split any party buys their ex a gift for xmas.

And if you are dropping into your ex's for christmas to see your daughter and spend christmas, then it is a good gesture to bring a bottle of wine or some small token for the house. This is basic stuff. If you hate him that much that you cant do that, then dont go to his house.

I'm dropping her off for an hour christmas eve. She will have a gift for him. I haven't a notion of bringing him a bottle of wine. When he calls to collect her he doesn't bring gifts. I don't think it's bad manners. If he wants to buy the child stuff then great. I want nothing from him. I expect nothing from him. If he treats me with courtesy and respect and treats the child well, then I'm happy. Thats all I expect. Hence why there is no tension between us anymore. When I was expecting more and not getting it, I was left disappointed and bitter. Stop expecting and then you stop being disappointed and dealing with the person gets a lot easier. THAT is my point. *Edited to add - I don't hate my ex, nor do I love him. He is a person in my daughters life. That's all. I treat him with respect and courtesy. I can go to his house, ring his doorbell and have polite chit chat. I can wish him a Merry Christmas. If he were to call on Christmas morning I would offer him a cup of coffee and OOH and Ahhh over santas wares. I would give him some time with the child. I would wave him off with a Merry Christmas. I wouldn't expect anything and would be surprised if he expected anything more from me.

At the same time, like with any other type of guest, if they dont do that, you dont make a big stink about it or anything like that,you overlook it, but im just saying it's not wrong to bring a gestural token gift. FFS its Christmas. If the soldiers in WW1 could put down their weapons no reason we cant.

But if you want to keep it strictly business, stick to the court order.

Like I said, if he brings one, great. But the problem is that the OP is EXPECTING not to get one iykwim. She feels hard done by that her ex will show up with gifts for the kids and nothing for her. Do you really think a bottle of wine will suffice? She is still in love with him. What she wants is a declaration of love. If he hands her a cheap bottle of plonk from Tesco she will STILL be disappointed because it's not a gift she wants. It's for him to make a gesture, for her to know he was thinking of her and that he cares for her. It is an excuse to feel unhappy on the day when he doesn't provide.

It's not so much about the gift as the whole attitude she NEEDS to take. For her sake and the kids. ANd that is to expect nothing. He is no longer her partner. He is now JUST the father of her children. And as such he has no responsibility to her, her feelings or her expectations. He cannot disappoint her as she shouldn't be expecting anything from him. He can of course affect her but only through the kids. If he showed up with nothing for THE KIDS, then she can be disappointed on their behalf.

ash23 · 18-12-2009 2:58pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

I think what everyone is forgetting here is that there is a court order in place. He is not sticking to it. He turns up unannounced whenever he feels like it. I dont let him in. I have had abuse at my hall door etc. Why should I have had to pay thousands in solicitors fees just to let him walze in? Why should I have to spend xmas day feeling like this?

I did address this point about the court order.
As for why you have to spend xmas day like this, well, because you had children with him. It's sh1t but that is the reality.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 3:08pm

ash23 wrote: »

I did address this point about the court order.
As for why you have to spend xmas day like this, well, because you had children with him. It's sh1t but that is the reality.

He

You did indeed mention the court order but eveyone else seems to have forgotten about it.

But no I dont have to spend xmas day like this because the reality is that he should stick to it and if I let him in on xmas day am I setting a precedent that he can turn up announced whenever he likes?

The issue is not who has feelings for who but I do think at the very least he should contribute towards the costs??? especially if he is gonna gate crash what is my private family time?

Has the people replying actully been in this situation?

Kimia · 18-12-2009 3:16pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

He

You did indeed mention the court order but eveyone else seems to have forgotten about it.

But no I dont have to spend xmas day like this because the reality is that he should stick to it and if I let him in on xmas day am I setting a precedent that he can turn up announced whenever he likes?

The issue is not who has feelings for who but I do think at the very least he should contribute towards the costs??? especially if he is gonna gate crash what is my private family time?

Has the people replying actully been in this situation?

Yes i have, from the perspective of the child.

It's not your private family time, it's his too. They are his kids too, no matter what happened between you.

Stheno · 18-12-2009 3:18pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

But no I dont have to spend xmas day like this because the reality is that he should stick to it and if I let him in on xmas day am I setting a precedent that he can turn up announced whenever he likes?

The issue is not who has feelings for who but I do think at the very least he should contribute towards the costs??? especially if he is gonna gate crash what is my private family time?

Has the people replying actully been in this situation?

Did the court ordered access not make any provision for Christmas/New Years? If not then you could compromise and let him visit this Christmas, and turn his behaviour on him, and ask him to have it formalised through the courts, or do that yourself.

You keep bringing up the costs for Christmas. Does he pay any maintenance?
And have you considered that perhaps he is buying gifts for the children himself?

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 3:22pm

Kimia wrote: »

Yes i have, from the perspective of the child.

It's not your private family time, it's his too. They are his kids too, no matter what happened between you.

So the next time he has access I will go calling to his house unannounced?? It is my private time.

So what everyone is saying is that the court order is a joke and he can come and go as he pleases?

Just because someone does not like the court order (which was done in the best interests of the child) does not mean they can break it whenever they want.

Has anyone actully read what I have posted?

ash23 · 18-12-2009 3:36pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

He

You did indeed mention the court order but eveyone else seems to have forgotten about it.

But no I dont have to spend xmas day like this because the reality is that he should stick to it and if I let him in on xmas day am I setting a precedent that he can turn up announced whenever he likes?

The issue is not who has feelings for who but I do think at the very least he should contribute towards the costs??? especially if he is gonna gate crash what is my private family time?

Has the people replying actully been in this situation?

Yes I have, albeit slightly different. I was with someone since my daughter was a baby. We split after almost 6 years. She calls him dad. So he has no legal obligations to her. Nor do I have any legal obligations to allow him to see her. But for HER sake, I do. He has weekly access and he also has her for an occasional weekend.
When we split (him cheating) I wanted nothing more than to hurt him. Easiest way would have been to stop him seeing her and not a court in the land could have stopped me. But SHE would have suffered too. So I didn't.
He doesn't pay maintenance. He's not obliged to. He helps out with expensive times (back to school and christmas) but other than that, nada.

So, there you go. Thats where I'm coming from. You talk about him interfering with your private family time. Forgive me, but don't you have a lot of that? I know I do. But for my daughters sake he is invited to christmas, birthdays etc. For HER. Not for him. I can rant and complain that a child isn't just for Christmas......but what good will it do?

The way I now handle things, I can be proud of myself. I can look in the mirror and know that I am the bigger person, the one who was willing to sacrifice how I felt for the sake of my daughter.
That was all that got me through the first hurdles. The first few times he messed up and I wanted to fall back into the indignant "what a b@stard, poor me" routine.
But over time it all became genuinely easier. I felt less and less angry. And in turn he melted a small bit too. It's just easier now. No aggro, no hurt feelings, just a genuine want to do the best by the child as opposed to points scoring off each other.

BUT it takes one person to start. And I'm proud that it was me.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 3:37pm

I am in a very similar situation OP, this is the first christmas that we have been seperated and it is very difficult. My OH sounds very like yours behavior wise, and like you, i still have feelings for him which do complicate matters. My parents seperated when i was a child also, and i am very conscious of how times like christmas will affect our daughter.
The truth is, that every situation is different. Your feelings absolutely count as much as enyone elses and i am 100% sure that you only want whats best for your children and will always put their feelings before your own, like any good parent.
I think some replies here have been quite harsh on you in relation your feelings for your ex, i do understand that it is incredibly difficult to watch your ex arrive with presents that you cant afford and make you feel left out in your own home.
This year, myself and my daughter are having christmas at my house alone, just the two of us. I may get slated for this, but i have refused to allow my ex come over this year as i need time to heal and will not be guilt tripped into a situation i am uncomfortable with on christmas day. It is not to punish him, it is for me, and my daughter that there is no tension or fighting, snide comments or hurt. It is one year, maybe next year, things will be different and hopefully we may be in a position to share the christmas experience, but this year, i am not. Your children will cope, my daughter will have a lovely day, just me and her and she will go to her dad's on stephens day and spend that with his family.
You need to put you and your family first, i am only now accepting, that my daughter has two families of sorts and am ensuring that the time she spends with both is positive. If you have your ex around makes you uncomfortable, it will create a negative situation which your children will see. I am sure you are not trying to punish him, or your children so dont feel guilty about that. You cannot fix what has happened and like any person trying to get over an ex, you shouldnt have to spend time with them if you dont wat to, it wont be good for you or your children.
I think that the idea of going to his house for a couple of hours is good, i wouldnt have my ex in my house because like yours, he'd just sit there and do nothing and not leave and when he did, i would feel terrible! So if you dont feel like having him in YOUR house would be a comfortable experience, dont do it! You being stressed out on christmas will ruin your day with your children, their is no reason in the world you should forfeit your quality time with your children for his. But make sure that whatever you decide is fair and that your kids get to spend quality time with him too, just their own time together!!
I wish you the best of luck, but whatever you do, dont be pressured, or feel guilty that you cant play happy families with your ex over christmas, there is nothing wrong with that provided you children have quality time with both of you.
Best of luck x

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 3:43pm

ash23 wrote: »

Yes I have, albeit slightly different. I was with someone since my daughter was a baby. We split after almost 6 years. She calls him dad. So he has no legal obligations to her. Nor do I have any legal obligations to allow him to see her. But for HER sake, I do. He has weekly access and he also has her for an occasional weekend.
When we split (him cheating) I wanted nothing more than to hurt him. Easiest way would have been to stop him seeing her and not a court in the land could have stopped me. But SHE would have suffered too. So I didn't.
He doesn't pay maintenance. He's not obliged to. He helps out with expensive times (back to school and christmas) but other than that, nada.

So, there you go. Thats where I'm coming from. You talk about him interfering with your private family time. Forgive me, but don't you have a lot of that? I know I do. But for my daughters sake he is invited to christmas, birthdays etc. For HER. Not for him. I can rant and complain that a child isn't just for Christmas......but what good will it do?

The way I now handle things, I can be proud of myself. I can look in the mirror and know that I am the bigger person, the one who was willing to sacrifice how I felt for the sake of my daughter.
That was all that got me through the first hurdles. The first few times he messed up and I wanted to fall back into the indignant "what a b@stard, poor me" routine.
But over time it all became genuinely easier. I felt less and less angry. And in turn he melted a small bit too. It's just easier now. No aggro, no hurt feelings, just a genuine want to do the best by the child as opposed to points scoring off each other.

BUT it takes one person to start. And I'm proud that it was me.

No I get very little private time as I have stated earlier, there is a severe disability involved................ which means every day of the week I have somewhere I have to be, some appointment, hospital etc to sit in for hours on end......... I do all the donkey work.... while my little boy was undering hospital treatment, he headed off on his holidays

I have been the bigger person and allowed him into my home last year for xmas day and he repaid me and kids by turning up an hour late and falling asleep.

Again I am asking why I should have had to pay thousands in court only for him to ignore it?

Kimia · 18-12-2009 3:45pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

So the next time he has access I will go calling to his house unannounced?? It is my private time.

So what everyone is saying is that the court order is a joke and he can come and go as he pleases?

Just because someone does not like the court order (which was done in the best interests of the child) does not mean they can break it whenever they want.

Has anyone actully read what I have posted?

Fine. You are right. The court order was done in the best interest's of the child. He should not break the court order.

What else do you need advice on?

Edit: Sorry, i see now you have given more information. It's a terrible situation, but again there's nothing really you can do. It's tough, but it's your life. It's not fair, but someone has to be the bigger person and in this situation it's you.

ash23 · 18-12-2009 3:50pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

No I get very little private time as I have stated earlier, there is a severe disability involved................ which means every day of the week I have somewhere I have to be, some appointment, hospital etc to sit in for hours on end......... I do all the donkey work.... while my little boy was undering hospital treatment, he headed off on his holidays

I have been the bigger person and allowed him into my home last year for xmas day and he repaid me and kids by turning up an hour late and falling asleep.

Again I am asking why I should have had to pay thousands in court only for him to ignore it?

OK so. Lock the door Christmas day. Pull the curtains and pretend you aren't there.
Or head off to your family, turn off the phone and ignore him.

Keep doing so until he gets the message. If he shows up at the door unannounced and not at his alloted time then tell him to go away. If he refuses call the gardai.
He will eventually give up calling over unnannounced.
Stand up for yourself. It'll get worse before it gets better but he'll lose interest eventually.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 4:20pm

Have tried all that before except I would have to hide my opel corsa too......... kinda gives the game away.

Unreg84 thanks for your reply glad I'm not the only person feeling that way. Some of the replies are very harsh. Its not as simple as just moving on when there are kids involved and even worse when the person who caused the hurt doesnt make it too easy.

He left coz he didnt want to play 'happy families' but then picks and chooses the times he does want to.

Ive been told lately that he behaves the way he does because he still has feelings hence he keeps turning up. He sure is going the wrong way about things. Because he records everything I dont feel like I can phone/text or communicate with him

I feel even worse now, I'm made out to be the bad person coz I just want peace and quiet on xmas day.

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 4:24pm

Danniboo wrote: »

But would you not agree kids should be able to have the chance to decide

No not always. I dont give my son a choice about a lot of things, like going out with no shoes on or eating custard for dinner or staying up until 1am. Why? Because they are bad for him.

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 4:30pm

ash23 wrote: »

But by her having expectations of him, it's going to lead to her being let down. By her expecting him to do the decent thing when he doesn't usually, she's setting herself up for a fall. Maybe in years to come they can play nicey nice and genuinely mean it, but at the moment there is unrequited love, anger, bitterness and animosity so I think gift giving is a bit much to expect. I think if they can be civil then thats doing really well.
I have a couple of friends who are no longer with their kids dads. They have good relations with the dads of these kids. Both dads call over xmas morning to see the kids and go to events etc. They call each other to organise things about the kids and all is well with the world. NEITHER of them will be buying their exs gifts and neither will be recieving. The kids will but not the adults. In my opinion this is the norm. I very much doubt that in the early stages of a split any party buys their ex a gift for xmas.

I'm dropping her off for an hour christmas eve. She will have a gift for him. I haven't a notion of bringing him a bottle of wine. When he calls to collect her he doesn't bring gifts. I don't think it's bad manners. If he wants to buy the child stuff then great. I want nothing from him. I expect nothing from him. If he treats me with courtesy and respect and treats the child well, then I'm happy. Thats all I expect. Hence why there is no tension between us anymore. When I was expecting more and not getting it, I was left disappointed and bitter. Stop expecting and then you stop being disappointed and dealing with the person gets a lot easier. THAT is my point. *Edited to add - I don't hate my ex, nor do I love him. He is a person in my daughters life. That's all. I treat him with respect and courtesy. I can go to his house, ring his doorbell and have polite chit chat. I can wish him a Merry Christmas. If he were to call on Christmas morning I would offer him a cup of coffee and OOH and Ahhh over santas wares. I would give him some time with the child. I would wave him off with a Merry Christmas. I wouldn't expect anything and would be surprised if he expected anything more from me.

Like I said, if he brings one, great. But the problem is that the OP is EXPECTING not to get one iykwim. She feels hard done by that her ex will show up with gifts for the kids and nothing for her. Do you really think a bottle of wine will suffice? She is still in love with him. What she wants is a declaration of love. If he hands her a cheap bottle of plonk from Tesco she will STILL be disappointed because it's not a gift she wants. It's for him to make a gesture, for her to know he was thinking of her and that he cares for her. It is an excuse to feel unhappy on the day when he doesn't provide.

It's not so much about the gift as the whole attitude she NEEDS to take. For her sake and the kids. ANd that is to expect nothing. He is no longer her partner. He is now JUST the father of her children. And as such he has no responsibility to her, her feelings or her expectations. He cannot disappoint her as she shouldn't be expecting anything from him. He can of course affect her but only through the kids. If he showed up with nothing for THE KIDS, then she can be disappointed on their behalf.

Picks up and drop off are different. But if you are spending Christmas afternoon in someone's house, you really should. I agree that it is wiser to expect no gift for the house, but if hes going to be sitting there eating her food, on her couch, watching her tv, he has to show some respect. This guy needs to be taken down a peg.

Just the father of her kids? Just the mother of her kids? Have I missed something or have these things suddenly become miniscule roles? He does have a reponsibility to her and she does to him to, these situations are not as cut and dried and as tidy as most people would like to make out.

You can't expect others to carry your expectations and your feelings and apply them to their lives. Different people, different histories and different circumstances.

ash23 · 18-12-2009 4:33pm

scroogegirl wrote: »

Have tried all that before except I would have to hide my opel corsa too......... kinda gives the game away.

Unreg84 thanks for your reply glad I'm not the only person feeling that way. Some of the replies are very harsh. Its not as simple as just moving on when there are kids involved and even worse when the person who caused the hurt doesnt make it too easy.

He left coz he didnt want to play 'happy families' but then picks and chooses the times he does want to.

Ive been told lately that he behaves the way he does because he still has feelings hence he keeps turning up. He sure is going the wrong way about things. Because he records everything I dont feel like I can phone/text or communicate with him

I feel even worse now, I'm made out to be the bad person coz I just want peace and quiet on xmas day.

Look, nobody is saying you're a bad person. But I just feel you are being complacent. You don't want to upset him by stopping him from calling over (if you really wanted to stop him you could. Call the gardai when he turns up unannounced.
If you don't want to play hard ball then you can't really expect anything to change. I've suggested being nice in order to change the situation and thats not an option. I've suggested ignoring him when he calls unannounced. Thats not an option either. I've suggested calling the gardai. You ignored that point.

I don't think you're a bad person but I do think you need to stop playing the damsel in distress. You are letting him walk all over you and you won't actually do anything to change it. And he knows this.

You are holding out for him to come running back. It's unlikely and the sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be.

The bit I've highlighted.....ah come on! You've been apart for over a year yes? He isn't coming back. He is just being a jackass and throwing his weight around. Move on and stop letting him control your life. because as long as you let him, he'll keep doing it.

ash23 · 18-12-2009 4:39pm

metrovelvet wrote: »

You can't expect others to carry your expectations and your feelings and apply them to their lives. Different people, different histories and different circumstances.

Eh, exactly! You are saying I can't apply my circumstances to other people. My point is you can't expect an EX to carry your expectations and your feelings and apply them to their lives.......

As for the miniscule role of mothers and fathers. You have misinterpreted my just in "just the father of my children".

It is an important role but that is all he is to me. Not my partner, my lover nor my friend. The ONLY obligation he has to me over a stranger in the street is to be a good parent to my child.

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 4:40pm

OP I think you should stick to the court order. It is what he wanted. He does sound like the type that if you give an inch to he will take a mile. The only other thing I could suggest is let him come over in the morning and then say you have been invited down to some family for christmas and then boot him out of the house. And then take the kids out later so it doesn't look like you are evicting him in front of them. No one likes to see a parent humiliated.

metrovelvet · 18-12-2009 4:43pm

ash23 wrote: »

Eh, exactly! You are saying I can't apply my circumstances to other people. My point is you can't expect an EX to carry your expectations and your feelings and apply them to their lives.......

As for the miniscule role of mothers and fathers. You have misinterpreted my just in "just the father of my children".

It is an important role but that is all he is to me. Not my partner, my lover nor my friend. The ONLY obligation he has to me over a stranger in the street is to be a good parent to my child.

No, but if you want your child to have an optimal parent it is part of your job to do your best so they are in good shape. ITs like making sure the carer of one of your parents is ok. If the carer is not, then it will affect the care if you get me.

This is a family. You are part of a family, you the child and the ex [although that there is no blood tie makes this argument a little weaker] like it or not, you are tied forever.

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 4:43pm

There is nothing wrong with wanting to celebrate christmas in your own way with your children, and i hope you do. If you can agree time with him to spend with the kids alone, it is best because then you wont feel like your playing happy families, but you have to be prepared to make that break from himalso.
Dont spend time together with him and with your kids, let him have his time and you have yours. It is diffcult, but if you make it clear to him that you will drop the kids to him on stephens day, or christmas eve for a set time, then he has no reason to interrupt your time. Also make it clear that at present you are not willing to spend time with him, you are under no pressure to do so. It is completely normal these days for parnets to split christmas, leaving aside whether this is good or bad, it is a fact that parents split and you should not be miserable to please everyone.
Some people think that because you have children with someone, and you split up, that even if you are not over the relationship, that you should be able to be around each other 'for the kids sake'. I completely disagree, especially when it comes to emotive times like christmas as it creates an unhealthy situation for everyone.
Some people do the year on year off thing, some do christmas day/ stephen day, some do christmas/ new years, but the reality is, very few successfully and happily do the all in the same place pretending its normal thing, its just not natural!!!
Your children have every right to spend time with their dad, but you have every right to spend time with them too, and enjoy it. I hope you can make some arrangement with him, put forward some options but make it clear that christmas day THIS year, is your time, do you think you could organise for him or his family to take them on stephens day, or christmas eve??

LegacyUser · 18-12-2009 4:44pm

I said I had tried all that got the Gardai involved etc, his own solicitor told him not to do it etc but he has listened to nobody.

His own family have had words with him. And yep he was brought down a peg or 2 by a court judge.

Yes in an ideal world I would like things to be back to the same way they were before but in the real world just look what sort of person he turned out to be?

And yes probably I am being walked all over because I dont want to go tru the trauma of court again and have him charged with harrassment which is what this is. Everybody has a right to peace and quiet in their own home without the fear of an unwanted guest banging down their door or hanging around outside their garden for an hour at a time

Someone else who knows him has said he still has feelings not me.

Nevyn · 18-12-2009 5:03pm

He is now a guest when he visits, if he was as rude as to fall asleep why didn't you wake him and tell him to go?

Taltos · 18-12-2009 5:32pm

OP

been reading the back and forth between the other posters and yourself. Will try to keep this brief.

1. Let go. You need to let go of any feelings / hopes you might be holding - you might not think it but from yours posts you keep saying he has feelings. I interpret that as I have feelings... Maybe he does - but he left - so let go.
2. Set boundaries You already have with the court order.
3. Communicate No yelling, hysterics, insults, snide remarks. Just keep it civil and (believe me) the best weapon you can use is a calm disinterested voice - even if inside you are bawling your eyes out - keep it calm.
4. Set expectations In the next few days talk to him and clearly but calmly instruct him of what you want/expect this Christmas to be like. Don't bargain, don't get all excited - just clearly and calmly say what you want then walk away.
5. Be Consistent Always be calm, always say the same thing, always be 100% clear on what you expect in return from him. Also follow thru - if he breaks the court order and you do nothing what do you think he will learn or has learnt from this. Consistency and fairness is the key.
6. Seek Help Find someone you can talk to / unload with. Clearly you are carrying alot of emotional weight here - you need help - there is no shame in that.

Remember - the calm voice with no emotion is one of the best tools out there. Remember back when you were a kid and you ran all excited to tell someone some news and they yawned in your face or just went "so what" - it really works... But you need to couple it with consistency and fairness.

miec · 18-12-2009 6:04pm

Hi Op

I would recommend you reread Ash23's post and listen to her, she is talking a lot of sense, her posts also give really good advice on being fair to your children whilst being assertive. You need to set the boundaries here and stop being such a victim.

Danniboo · 21-12-2009 9:26am

metrovelvet wrote: »

No not always. I dont give my son a choice about a lot of things, like going out with no shoes on or eating custard for dinner or staying up until 1am. Why? Because they are bad for him.

Comparing custard with his dad?? Hmm hardly the same thing.

kittenkiller · 21-12-2009 1:42pm

As you seem to be getting on well enough with his family, could you arrange for you guys to visit his parents for a short period at some point during the day (like for an hour before dinner or something)?
That way you can tell him, we'll be at your parents house between 12 and 1, if you'd like to see the kids, be there.
That way you can leave on your own terms and he might be more reluctant to act out in front of his parents.

Best of luck.

xmas day

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