Religious friend dying

Vampireskiss

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

Latchy

Atheist or nay , why would you want to tell somebody dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live,that their belief in the afterlife is ridiculous ?

Aren't they in enough physical /emotional pain as it is ? Would you not be better offering them some form of human comfort ?

Zombrex

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

Nope.

I don't tell my friends who aren't dying that their beliefs are ridiculous.

You guys aren't my friends :P

sink

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

No, it would be a fairly dick thing to do.

Tim Robbins

No way. And I wish to f*ck I could know Christian / believers etc would pay me the same respect.

Sangre

Would a Christian tell his Hindu friend the same?

Probably not unless he desperately wanted to administer last rites.

Dave!

No, no I wouldn't

Next question plz

Flamed Diving

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

I have never once told a religious friend that their beliefs are ridiculous. This question is on the William Craig whatshisname level of comprehension.

Genghiz Cohen

I'd have more important thigs to worry about TBH.

Mark Hamill

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

Depends on wether the reasoning for their belief in the afterlife was ridiculous.
And, of course, why we were talking about it.

pH

Vampire's question as phrased is fairly trite, but let's imagine a good friend who's religious on their death-bed. Imagine you're visiting, they're close to death, they know it and are looking for support and reassurance ... just what would you say?

I know what I did, but I'm just wondering what others think they'd do.

philologos

I'd like to think however ridiculous people think that the beliefs of the deceased are that they would at least hope that the deceased was going to meet their Father in heaven.

Pre-emption: If my friend were dying and were of different beliefs. I would pray for them and hope that they would be led to God in their final hours.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

I'd have more important thigs to worry about TBH.

More important than supporting friends and family? What is any more important for a non-believer than that?

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

More important than supporting friends and family? What is any more important for a non-believer than that?

I swear you must work at missing the point. He said he'd have more important things to worry about than telling the guy his beliefs are ridiculous, one of which would be supporting friends and family

Genghiz Cohen

Jakkass wrote: »

More important than supporting friends and family? What is any more important for a non-believer than that?

I meant more important than their faith/lack of.

Supporting the person, friends & family would be paramount.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Pre-emption: If my friend were dying and were of different beliefs. I would pray for them and hope that they would be led to God in their final hours.

What would you say if they asked you what they thought was going to happen to them?

sink

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd like to think however ridiculous people think that the beliefs of the deceased are that they would at least hope that the deceased was going to meet their Father in heaven.

I would like for them to find their beliefs fulfilled. I would however not hope, for to have hope you would have to believe on some level that it's possible that there is a heaven and I do not.

philologos

In fairness the post by Gengiz Cohen wasn't that clear. It's more clear to me now, and thanks for being so civil in explaining further!

Sam Vimes wrote:

What would you say if they asked you what they thought was going to happen to them?

I'd let them know that I was thinking and praying for them. I'd let them know that I believe in God, and that if they ever wanted to consider Him before death I would gladly discuss the Scriptures with them. I'd also let them know that I'd be at their side as they went through this.

Dave!

Jakkass wrote: »

In fairness the post by Gengiz Cohen wasn't that clear. It's more clear to me now, and thanks for being so civil in explaining further!



I'd let them know that I was thinking and praying for them. I'd let them know that I believe in God, and that if they ever wanted to consider Him before death I would gladly discuss the Scriptures with them. I'd also let them know that I'd be at their side as they went through this.

If I'm not mistaken, Christians believe that those who don't accept Jesus Christ as their saviour don't get into heaven -- is that right? Or if they reject the holy spirit or something?

If that is the case, and your friend makes it clear on their deathbed that they still think it's bullsh*t, etc., would you press the issue? Would you urge them to accept Jesus? Or would you just quietly say your own prayers for their soul and hope that god overlooks that little rule about accepting his son?

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd let them know that I was thinking and praying for them. I'd let them know that I believe in God, and that if they ever wanted to consider Him before death I would gladly discuss the Scriptures with them. I'd also let them know that I'd be at their side as they went through this.

So you wouldn't just tell them that they'll go straight to hell if they don't reject their god and believe in yours? That's what the absolute perfect morality of your religion teaches so why should you have any qualms about telling these people that they're going to burn and they fully deserve it?

philologos

Dave! - There would be only so much I could do. I'd certainly give them the opportunity to find out.

Sam Vimes - I'd probably let them know that I believe that through belief in Jesus Christ there is hope for them, and that I would love to help them find out what is so special about Him before they die. The Gospel is good news, not bad news. That's pretty much the example that I want to set.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam Vimes - I'd probably let them know that I believe that through belief in Jesus Christ there is hope for them, and that I would love to help them find out what is so special about Him before they die. The Gospel is good news, not bad news. That's pretty much the example that I want to set.

Tell me, if you were terminally ill and in great pain on your death bed, would you appreciate someone telling you about the good news in the qu'ran and that through Mohamed you can be saved?

philologos

I'd recognise and respect the intention.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd recognise and respect the intention.

Right but do you not think you'd have bigger things to worry about than hearing about someone else's religious beliefs?

Would you ask them to stop?

toiletduck

Vampireskiss wrote: »

If you had a friend who was dying of terminal cancer and suffering in great pain with weeks to live and believed in an after life would you still be telling him/her how ridiculous their beliefs were?

Been there (with family) and no, why on earth would I? I don't do it to friends in day to day life so why would I pick then.

Anyone who would attempt to force their own belief (or lack thereof) in such a situation would be a dick imo.

liamw

Jakkass, shouldn't you be doing everything in you power to convert them before they die? After all, you believe they will be going straight to eternal torture if not right?

bnt

If your friend doesn't know what you think already, then that's no time for him or her to find out, in my opinion.

On the other hand: if I was that dying person, I wouldn't want my friends to lie to me, or humour me, or treat me as if the cancer was in my head - even if it was. You don't revert to childhood when you find out you have a major medical problem. I don't think there's a universal answer to this question - it would depend on the person.

Dades

liamw wrote: »

Jakkass, shouldn't you be doing everything in you power to convert them before they die? After all, you believe they will be going straight to eternal torture if not right?

And maybe if his friend decided to believe in God - Jakkass should murder him right then and there for his own good before he changed his mind...

Do we need another one of these debates?

rccaulfield

No way never!!!

herbiemcc

Well as an atheist of course I would lie through my teeth to try to ease their fear and pain. I'm not really qualified to get into many real details on the subject of religion but I'd just agree with and confirm their positive wishes and try to help dispel their negative fears. "Yes, yes, you'll be in heaven and we'll all see you soon" type stuff. I think the question seems to reflect the theist view that to be atheist you must be amoral and quite heartless. Of course we care to the same extent as everyone else about our friends and family and that means I would reflect and support the views of whoever was with me, however weird or wonderful it seems to me. If a hindu friend was dying it's not really the time to start proposing the merits of atheism nor is it the time to try to convert him to another religion. Sometimes lies are necessary - Sa**a? I think this is more of a simple case of appropriateness and human decency. It doesn't prove or disprove anything and the question isnt' really useful in a debate about finding truth.

Galvasean

I know some of the regulars here hate him, but Ricky Gaervais had a scene in The Invention of Lying where

his mother is worked up into a fearful state on her deathbed, afraid of the empty void that is death. So to make her feel better he essentially makes up heaven, telling her about this wonderful place where yo go when you die where you get to meet all your relatives and everyone lives in mansions.

That's what I do.

MrPudding

pH wrote: »

Vampire's question as phrased is fairly trite, but let's imagine a good friend who's religious on their death-bed. Imagine you're visiting, they're close to death, they know it and are looking for support and reassurance ... just what would you say?

I know what I did, but I'm just wondering what others think they'd do.

This is one of the main difficulties I have with being an atheist. When I was religious things were easier, people dying, people dead, worry not, religion provides you with a trite platitude for every occasion. My family are fairly religious, as far as they are concerned but going to hell according to some of the posters on the other forum, and it is very difficulty to be around them when someone is dead or dying.

Personally I try to keep a low profile.

MrP

NothingMan

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd like to think however ridiculous people think that the beliefs of the deceased are that they would at least hope that the deceased was going to meet their Father in heaven.

So you think that as atheists, we should not talk about how that they are dying and this is the end, nothing more. That we should keep it to ourselves, and further more, hope they are welcomed to heaven despite it directly contrasting with our outlook on death?

I'd probably let them know that I believe that through belief in Jesus Christ there is hope for them, and that I would love to help them find out what is so special about Him before they die. The Gospel is good news, not bad news. That's pretty much the example that I want to set.

Yet you as a christian, would deem it perfectly acceptable to explain to an atheist on their death bed that there is still hope of salvation through your lord Jesus Christ?

Sorry if I missed something but that sounds extremely hypocritical.

Rev Hellfire

NothingMan wrote: »

So you think that as atheists, we should not talk about how that they are dying and this is the end, nothing more. That we should keep it to ourselves, and further more, hope they are welcomed to heaven despite it directly contrasting with our outlook on death?

Hopefully you'll never find yourself in such a position for quite some time.
Common decency dictates that unless you're convinced that your opinion is going to comfort and ease their passing you keep your mouth shut.

Yet you as a Christian, would deem it perfectly acceptable to explain to an atheist on their death bed that there is still hope of salvation through your lord Jesus Christ?

I think the difference is that the Christian actually believes that their action will make a difference, its not point scoring to them.

To answer the opening question, if someone asked me on their deathbed if there was a heaven and was their a place secured for them. I would if I felt it was what they wanted to hear tell them there is, I'd be the most committed Christian/whatever for that period of time.

NothingMan

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Hopefully you'll never find yourself in such a position for quite some time.
Common decency dictates that unless you're convinced that your opinion is going to comfort and ease their passing you keep your mouth shut.

I also hope I don't find myslef in that situation anytime soon.
And if the person was a christian/Jew/Muslim I wouldn't open my mouth talking about my beliefs. It's not the time or the place to start a debate.

I think the difference is that the Christian actually believes that their action will make a difference, its not point scoring to them.

First of all I wouldn't talk about it in that situation, but when I do it's never about point scoring, and I see no difference in an atheist pushing atheism to a religious person pushing their faith. I am atheist, it's somewhat important to me and I would not appreciate being told about the possibility of redemption on my deathbed.

You may argue that religion gives a certain peace of mind, but most, if not all, the atheists here will tell you that with an acceptance of non belief it is a burden lifted from your shoulders. You can enjoy life to the fullest without worrying about what's next, or having to pay lip service to a church or God. I have become much less worried about death since completely rejecting all beliefs of an after life. So in that respect I don't think religion holds anything over atheism when on yor death bed, at least not for me or a lot of people I know.

To answer the opening question, if someone asked me on their deathbed if there was a heaven and was their a place secured for them. I would if I felt it was what they wanted to hear tell them there is, I'd be the most committed Christian/whatever for that period of time.

If someone asked me outright what my beliefs were I wouldn't lie to them. I may try and side step the issue if I felt it would do more harm than good, but I wouldn't lie about a belief in heaven/hell to anyone.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

And maybe if his friend decided to believe in God - Jakkass should murder him right then and there for his own good before he changed his mind...

Do we need another one of these debates?

Yes, yes we do. Actually no, no we don't. :P

The thread is about atheists, I think we can the rush to berate Jakkass again for a thread that is actually about berating Jakkass (and there doesn't seem to be a shortage of those :pac:)

Zombrex

I think too much fuss is made of the "hypocracy" of atheists in this regard, as if this question is pointing out some fundamental flaw in atheist belief, where in fact it misses the main objections to religion most atheists have, the question of why we don't humor religious faith in the first place.

If my friends wife died in a car accident I would tell him. I would tell him straight because the consequences of not doing this are worse than the results of doing it. If he wanted to start believing she was not in fact dead but had run away to Spain I would confront him with the fact that she is dead because ultimately he needs to deal with this properly

On the other hand if my friend was in the same accident was lying on a hospital bed rapidly losing blood and the doctors saying they don't think he will last another hour, I wouldn't dream of telling him.

I would say your wife is in surgery (so he can't see her) but she is going to be perfectly fine. It is a total lie but a total lie I have no problem telling because there are no consequence of that lie. He is not going to have mental problems 10 year from now because he didn't deal properly with his wife's death. He will be dead in a few minutes.

The over all negative effects of religious and supernatural beliefs far out weight the positive effects, in the same way that lying for 20 years that my friends wife is not dead but living in Cuba far out weigh the positive effects of just telling him the truth.

But that does not mean I'm compelled to be brutally honest in every single situation. If the negative effects of supernatural belief don't out weight the positive effects, in the case of lying to comfort a dying friend, then of course I would do it.

Like so many of these type of things the assumption behind the question misses the wood for the trees.

Dades

To sum up, the situation outlined in the OP is the theological equivalent of "Does my bum look big in this?" :pac:

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

To sum up, the situation outlined in the OP is the theological equivalent of "Does my bum look big in this?" :pac:

Though with less chance of physical damage, as your dying friend is probably too weak to slap you across the face

dvpower

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam Vimes - I'd probably let them know that I believe that through belief in Jesus Christ there is hope for them, and that I would love to help them find out what is so special about Him before they die. The Gospel is good news, not bad news. That's pretty much the example that I want to set.

It pretty f***ing bad news to a dying non believer.

Dades

Good news! You won't just be dead when you stop breathing - you're going to HELL!

Unless you believe something you don't... (Which is clearly impossible, btw. )

The Mad Hatter

- Our mighty mother, Buck Mulligan said.
He turned abruptly his great searching eyes from the sea to Stephen's face.
- The aunt thinks you killed your mother, he said. That's why she won't let me have anything to do with you.
- Someone killed her, Stephen said gloomily.
- You could have knelt down, damn it, Kinch, when your dying mother asked you, Buck Mulligan said. I'm hyperborean as much as you. But to think of your mother begging you with her last breath to kneel down and pray for her. And you refused. There is something sinister in you...

-Ulysses

Kooli

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Depends on wether the reasoning for their belief in the afterlife was ridiculous.
And, of course, why we were talking about it.

So there are occasions when you would tell a dying friend that their beliefs were ridiculous?

Why on earth would you do that?

Antbert

In answer to the original question, no I almost certainly wouldn't tell them what I actually thought. And I'd appreciate it if a Christian didn't tell me I was going to burn in hell on my death bed too. There's a time and a place for that argument. And the place is usually the Internet.

Wicknight wrote: »

The over all negative effects of religious and supernatural beliefs far out weight the positive effects, in the same way that lying for 20 years that my friends wife is not dead but living in Cuba far out weigh the positive effects of just telling him the truth.

Excellent point. This is pretty irrelevant to the thread at hand but as an aside, this is precisely what I said when someone argued that psychics provide comfort to people grieving over dead loved ones.

Dades

Kooli wrote: »

So there are occasions when you would tell a dying friend that their beliefs were ridiculous?

Why on earth would you do that?

Here's a reason. (As seen in the Christianity forum).

Extreme, I know...

Antbert

What if they don't really believe and just want some reassurance that they're not going to hell? Then you start prattling on about saviours and afterlifes. A disasterous misunderstanding.

Kooli

Dades wrote: »

Here's a reason. (As seen in the Christianity forum).

Extreme, I know...

That's fair enough but nothing to do with the OP's question, or Mark Hammill's response.

time42play

MrPudding wrote: »

This is one of the main difficulties I have with being an atheist. When I was religious things were easier, people dying, people dead, worry not, religion provides you with a trite platitude for every occasion.

It seems like recently a lot of people I know are dealing with deaths and serious end-stage illness (stage 4 cancer, Huntington's, etc). I'm finding it very hard to find things to say without resorting to those trite platitudes! None of them know what I do or don't believe, so when they ask if I'll pray for them it is just so easy to say "yes of course I will" and walk away. It makes them happy but makes me feel like a real hypocrite.

Rev Hellfire

Antbert wrote: »

What if they don't really believe and just want some reassurance that they're not going to hell? Then you start prattling on about saviours and afterlifes. A disasterous misunderstanding.

Well if they don't believe they're unlikely to believe in hell are they.

Antbert

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Well if they don't believe they're unlikely to believe in hell are they.

Well if they DO believe then your opinion shouldn't really matter.

I don't want to get drawn into an argument about this because I actually wouldn't voice my opinions on their deathbed.

Flamed Diving

You gotta love the cheek of people, such as the OP, who regularly come into A&A, throw up a thread and then scarper off into the night, never to be seen again.

Malingerers!

Mark Hamill

Kooli wrote: »

So there are occasions when you would tell a dying friend that their beliefs were ridiculous?

Why on earth would you do that?

Like Dades showed, there are reasons that might actually lead to saving a persons life if you ignored their "ridiculous" beliefs, but there are situations where I might have no choice but to call bs on someone beliefs.
For instance, if someone actually tried to use their impending death to try to convert me ("Oh, but dont you want me to go to a better place when I die?"), I might eventually just say they are being ridiculous (after trying to non-commitantly get away from the issue).
Also (maybe a little extreme) but there could be a case where that persons dying beliefs are causing pain to their loved ones they are going to leave behind. Imagine a situation like the Jehovas Witness that Dades referenced, but imagine that the womans family (siblings, parents) weren't JW and wanted her to take the blood transfusion. If I was a friend of the family, I might try to convince the person to do it, probably by arguing against her beliefs.
I'm not saying I know anyone in these situations, I'm just leaving this type of thing open because I can't possibly know what sort of situations may come up in my life. I wouldn't call a dying someones beliefs ridiculous just to "score a point", because there would be no benefit, but its not that hard to envisage a situation where there might be a benefit.
Thats the problem with this sort of thought experiment (created, I'd imagine, so as to give ammunition for those who want to call atheists heartless), real life doesn't quite fit in thought experiments, so I dont fully commit to any position cause I dont know what real life will throw at me.