Is the AAI grassroots? [split thread]

Racing Flat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Purely personal opinion here but I'm not convinced about staying within the ranks of the AAI. Frankly it seems totally disconnected from grassroots running

What do you mean by grassroots running? I think the AAI is grassroots running, i.e. the representative body of the athletics clubs of the country.There are plenty of people here in clubs. If they are not happy with the permit system, they can raise this with the AAI via their club.

Whether you are or are not in a club, the issue here seems to be finding out whether a race is suitable for you. I don't know if you need a permit or rating sytem for this. Just a bit of commonsense not to jump in with 2 feet and enter every new race out there, not spend money on races and then complain after that it didn't meet your needs. Most races have contact details when advertised - all you have to do is ring the contact person and ask them how it is measured, if there are facilities, etc. etc. Frankly if you turn up at a race and it ends up not being any good, well learn from it and don't do it again.

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Frankly it seems totally disconnected from grassroots running and seems to lack the time / resources to (re)establish the connection. As I said if teh permit system could be fixed that would be the ideal solution. Chances of that happening are...?

I think to say the athletic association is disconnected from the grassroots is way off the mark. What are you basing this on? It grinds my gears when I hear this as its lazy comment based on not knowing the facts or from what people read on messageboards which as we all know are the bastion of the extreme opinion. The athletic association is the grassroots. Even the athletic association executive is full of people who coach/official/admin at club level. There are no ivory towers in the athletic association, well very few. The majority (if not all) of the more knowledgable and experienced people in the sport are in the athletic association and very much part of grassroots. I think to say otherwise shows a disconnection or lack of understanding of the sport (as a whole). List the best road races in the country (say top 5) and look at the people involved - probably all grassroots people from within the association. You say BHAA is good. Based on what I have learned over the past while, much of the people involved here are also part of the athletic association.

Now, if you are talking about the recreational runner, yes, there is a disconnect but with respect to the recreational runner, they are not the grassroots of the sport as they have no involvement in the sport apart from furthering their own means or goals, ie, going for a run 3/4 days a week and racing the odd race. Having said that, there is work being done through Fit4life to improve this connection to bring these people into the sport.

If people want to really effect change in the road race permit/approval/standards world, then work within the system that can effect most change. Have an approval system in kilter with the permit system so they are the one and the same.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Likewise with fixtures and date clashes - that's beyond teh scope, all the new organisation cares about is the quality of teh race.

Have quality built into approval/permit system. This has been granted a Grade A permit or Grade B permit etc etc. Makes most sense to me.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I know there is a resistance to breaking teh AAI link but do you guys really think that the permit system can be overhauled and made relevant? Do you think the appetite exists in the AAI to do it? Or the resources?

Yes, there is an appetite. Is there resources, probably not but seeing as its probably the best vehicle for change put forward here then would it not be a good move for those who feel they are outside of the association maybe approach the association and put forward a suggestion or committment to help. Short of doing it within the offical ranks, then the RoyMcC RunnersWorld suggestion makes most sense to me. There have been a couple of letters in recent issues of Irish Runner on this and the Editor has the appetite. Could be worth a punt to head in that direction.

Just my opinion

plodder

hunnymonster wrote: »

I think the crux of the thing is that there has been an explosion of road races (5km - marathon) where traditionally there was a more select calendar for club runners, there are now hundreds of thousands of people out pounding the roads for fitness reasons. They are not club members so fall outside the AAI catchment but they do a couple of races a year to stay motivated. I know it's on the AAI agenda to figure out how to best include this group. They already have the fit4life programme but I would suggest they also need to look at how to include the more advanced weekend warrior who took up running later in life (i.e. hasn't been a member of a club since they were 7). These are the people who make up the bulk of entries in any given road race.

95% in the case of the 2008 Raheny 5, for example. Roughly half of the club runners, would have finished in the top 150 or so, and the remaining 120 club members were scattered among the other four and a half thousand entrants. These figures aren't exact, but they're roughly right.

--amadeus--

Split from the Race Quality thread because it's a seperate (but interesting) discussion...

~~~

I agree 100% that the AAI, through the medium of clubs, is involved in grassroots running.

Where I think we differ is that I would see the clubs as being involved in a fairly small percentage of the overall grassroots running "scene". While clubs are involved in grassroots they are a long way away from being all of the grassroots.

As Plodder says above only a small percentage of runners in any given race will be members of a club and while it may "grind the gears" of the clubs and club members to hear it there is a world of running that is not connected to club running. We're on a BB dedicated to running, people here are signifigantly more involved than casual runners and yet I doubt that the majority of posters here are club members - at the very least a signifigant minority wouldn't be.

Like it or not the biggest running event in the country is the Womens Mini Marathon. What percentage of entrants to that are club members? 1%? How can an organisation representing less than 5% of teh finishers at a major road race (according to Plodder) claim to be representative?
IMO this links back to my original points about permits. For the average grassroots runner - people like me and dozens of posters on here - the AAI is pretty much irrelevant. Which makes it highly unusual as a governing body - you can't take part in organised matches without being a GAA club member but you can run without being in an athletics club. While it may be frustrating to those on the inside I believe that it is the task of teh AAI and the clubs to be more relevant to these people, the ones outside the system. As the running boom continues they run ever greater risks of becoming marginalised in thier own sport.

--amadeus--

Just re-reading your post and this para really jumped out:

Tingle wrote: »

Now, if you are talking about the recreational runner, yes, there is a disconnect but with respect to the recreational runner, they are not the grassroots of the sport as they have no involvement in the sport apart from furthering their own means or goals, ie, going for a run 3/4 days a week and racing the odd race. Having said that, there is work being done through Fit4life to improve this connection to bring these people into the sport.

I think that perfectly sums up why I feel that clubs / AAI are disconnected. If someone runs 3 or 4 days a week and races occasionally how on earth can you say they have "no involvment in the sport"?

baza1976

In my opinion, the answer is no. AAI never told/asked/advised me how to run. They didn't put the tar on the roads I run on. They didn't create any fire paths on the hills I run on.

They don't put flyers in my door asking if the kids want to join and where they can go to train like the local rugby and soccer clubs do.

If you stand on any corner and ask peole out jogging have they heard about AAI or can they tell you anything about it or what AAI means I think you would get very interesting results.

I wouldn't miss them. Had forgotton about them really

ss43

AAI surely is the grassroots of the sport given that it caters for all stages - juvenile, junior, u23, senior, masters with each area of athletics covered for each. They have a fit for life section. Organisations such as IUAA, ISAA and IMRA come under its umbrella. It trains the coaches and deals with the elite section. It's covering every base there. If people choose to work outside the system because they feel don't need it, there's not much they can do about it.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Like it or not the biggest running event in the country is the Womens Mini Marathon. What percentage of entrants to that are club members? 1%? How can an organisation representing less than 5% of teh finishers at a major road race (according to Plodder) claim to be representative?

What percentage of those entrants run? I'd reckon a high enough percentage of those that run (which is what athletics is about in this case - presuming people aren't long jumping the 10k or racewalking it) are members of clubs.

ss43

baza1976 wrote: »

In my opinion, the answer is no. AAI never told/asked/advised me how to run. They didn't put the tar on the roads I run on. They didn't create any fire paths on the hills I run on.

They don't put flyers in my door asking if the kids want to join and where they can go to train like the local rugby and soccer clubs do.

If you stand on any corner and ask peole out jogging have they heard about AAI or can they tell you anything about it or what AAI means I think you would get very interesting results.

I wouldn't miss them. Had forgotton about them really

What training do you do and how do you know to do it? I imagine you got advice or picked something up from someone who obtained their knowledge through AAI (or BLE and NACAI before).

Also, why do you think that in that position you are the grassroots of the sport?

What about someone, who joined their local club as a young lad, trained under the tutelage of his AAI trained coach, competed in their competitions, got motivated by their medals, now trains and competes as an adult?

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Split from the Race Quality thread because it's a seperate (but interesting) discussion...

~~~

I agree 100% that the AAI, through the medium of clubs, is involved in grassroots running.

Where I think we differ is that I would see the clubs as being involved in a fairly small percentage of the overall grassroots running "scene". While clubs are involved in grassroots they are a long way away from being all of the grassroots.

As Plodder says above only a small percentage of runners in any given race will be members of a club and while it may "grind the gears" of the clubs and club members to hear it there is a world of running that is not connected to club running. We're on a BB dedicated to running, people here are signifigantly more involved than casual runners and yet I doubt that the majority of posters here are club members - at the very least a signifigant minority wouldn't be.

Like it or not the biggest running event in the country is the Womens Mini Marathon. What percentage of entrants to that are club members? 1%? How can an organisation representing less than 5% of teh finishers at a major road race (according to Plodder) claim to be representative?
IMO this links back to my original points about permits. For the average grassroots runner - people like me and dozens of posters on here - the AAI is pretty much irrelevant. Which makes it highly unusual as a governing body - you can't take part in organised matches without being a GAA club member but you can run without being in an athletics club. While it may be frustrating to those on the inside I believe that it is the task of teh AAI and the clubs to be more relevant to these people, the ones outside the system. As the running boom continues they run ever greater risks of becoming marginalised in thier own sport.

Who organises the Mini-Marathon? Aren't DSD involved as well as many other club/AAI people. I think you will find the majority are. Also, all the top races whether under the banner of a club (AAI) or not will have AAI members on the organising committee. DCM has many on the organising committee who are club members. Thats my point. The people who know best about organising races whether its BHAA or DCM or Mini-marathon are also club members. They are grassroots. The vast swathes of recreational runners out there are not grassroots as without the clubs (AAI) many of the mass participation (well the better ones anyway) would not exist. If tomorrow morning you take away all the club (AAI) people from the sport of running and the recreational runners would have nothing to race in and the sport (of recreational running) would collapse. You take away the vast swathes of recreational runners and the sport of running will still survive - it did between the last jogging boom of the 70/80s and this one.

So, with regard to the fact that the vast majority of people who drive the sport of running on (whether recreational or not) are already part of the AAI then I can confidently say that AAI are the grassroots.

Note: AAI is not the executive or the fully paid staff or the High Performance people. Its the members. The people who run roads races for their clubs, who are on organising committees for charity races, who are taking fit4life groups. Thats grassroots not the monster munch crew on bank holiday monday or a couple of dozen posters on a messageboard.

downthemiddle

While I'm never slow to express my misgivings about the AAI they are the governing body for the sport in Ireland. They are the only internationally and domestically recognised body for the sport in this country.
Is sport about competition or participation?The AAI are responsible for all recognised competition. Only AAI permitted events are officially recognised. If, for example, a world leading time was set in the Dublin marathon would the IAAF recognise the performance without an AAI permit?
The example of the mini marathon is an interesting one. It is an AAI permitted event which depends on the clubs to marshall the event. The vast majority of the top finishers are club members. You are then re entering the debate about slow marathons being an athletic achievement.
We all have our own definition of grassroots. For me the grassroots of the sport are the young children who are the future of the sport and the coaches who so willingly give of their time so these children can enjoy athletics.
It all depends on your perspective.

thirtyfoot

baza1976 wrote: »

In my opinion, the answer is no. AAI never told/asked/advised me how to run. They didn't put the tar on the roads I run on. They didn't create any fire paths on the hills I run on.

They don't put flyers in my door asking if the kids want to join and where they can go to train like the local rugby and soccer clubs do.

If you stand on any corner and ask peole out jogging have they heard about AAI or can they tell you anything about it or what AAI means I think you would get very interesting results.

I wouldn't miss them. Had forgotton about them really

So who are the grassroots? Then we don't have a grassroots as unfortunately you and other recreational runners are not grassroots (I am assuming you are a recreational runner!). Are you grassroots or is the guy in the club who coaches athletes, runs on a novice team, is on the club committee, is on the committee of a local charity race and the committee of the club road race? That is AAI. The members. The grassroots. You are not grassroots for sure, it would be akin to saying the guy playing 5 a side on Astro is the grassroots of football.

Bit of a stupid argument anyway but to say that AAI (as in clubs/members) is not the grassroots of the sports really annoys me as it is so far from the truth. If the grassroots is not reaching out to all, then that is another issue.

donothoponpop

Tingle wrote: »

. The vast swathes of recreational runners out there are not grassroots as without the clubs (AAI) many of the mass participation (well the better ones anyway) would not exist.

They wouldn't exist without the vast swathes either. Is this not grassroots?

thirtyfoot

donothoponpop wrote: »

They wouldn't exist without the vast swathes either. Is this not grassroots?

DCM and mini-marathon survived the jogging recession. The grassroots (as in the non-recreational aspects on the sport) also survived in this period.

downthemiddle

donothoponpop wrote: »

They wouldn't exist without the vast swathes either. Is this not grassroots?

Mass participation events bring the sport to the wider public. However this is the first time since the eighties we have seen such numbers participating. At one stage the future of the Dublin marathon was in doubt, no sponsorship and low numbers participating. If it had gone to the wall, or if any other mass participation event had, the AAI would still exist.
Last Sunday the athletes representing Ireland came from what I would regard as grassroots. They joined their local club as juveniles and coaches voluntarily developed their potential.
Do you believe grassroots are the people who enjoying running and enter mass participation events or the people who willingly give their time to ensure these events are a success and who take pride in the development of their athletes?
As I said earlier it is all a matter of perception.

ChickenTikka

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I think that perfectly sums up why I feel that clubs / AAI are disconnected. If someone runs 3 or 4 days a week and races occasionally how on earth can you say they have "no involvment in the sport"?

Not demeaning the person who jogs every 3 or 4 days and takes part in the occasional race, but how different is that from the person who goes on the treadmill to the gym every 3 or 4 days and takes part in 1 race a year. Are they also involved in the sport? I guess it depends on what your definition of what the sport is. The AAI are trying to provide for the recreational runner. On their website, they state "Our primary objective is to promote and develop the sport at every level from recreational running and schools competitions through to supporting Ireland's elite athletes in international competition."

AAI serves its members through its network of clubs/counties and the competitions between them. Most clubs and counties are run by volunteers actively involved in coaching athletes in their club and organising competitions at county or regional level - so competitive running or track and field is their focus. They don’t have time to focus on recreational running unless someone with that focus sticks their hand up to ‘run with it’. I'm sure most clubs and counties would welcome an infusion of new blood on their committees whose focus is the recreational runner. Many clubs have taken this on with fit4life and been very successful.

So rather than people expressing the view that AAI never does anything for us, get involved in your club and make a place in your club for the recreational runner. Then get involved in your county and make the same changes. That’s the only way it will work – coaches and administrators in clubs are already overloaded, so getting involved and expanding their focus is the only way forward.

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Just re-reading your post and this para really jumped out:



I think that perfectly sums up why I feel that clubs / AAI are disconnected. If someone runs 3 or 4 days a week and races occasionally how on earth can you say they have "no involvment in the sport"?

I drive a car a few times a week - Does that make me a rally driver and does that then mean that the Rally Ireland is disconnected from grass roots because they don't cater for me and people like me?

plodder

ss43 wrote: »

What percentage of those entrants run? I'd reckon a high enough percentage of those that run (which is what athletics is about in this case - presuming people aren't long jumping the 10k or racewalking it) are members of clubs.

The results page doesn't give everyone's times, but I think the vast majority of entrants in that race ran, rather than walked. So, I don't think it changes the figures that much.

By comparison, the Irish Runner 5 mile in 2008 had about 2900 finishers. Of those, 2222 finished under 50 minutes, 1573 under 45 minutes. They don't record club affiliations, but I don't think there's any reason to believe it would be much different from the Raheny 5.

As someone said already, athletics is (and should be) mostly about encouraging young talent, but it's just there is another potential side to it as well, and if the AAI don't step in to cater for it, then someone else will. The BHAA do a great job already, and now we have the "for profit" races coming in to it as well. But, I think clubs could do more to reach out to these people, not just for the runners benefit, but think of the potential revenue for the clubs.

donothoponpop

downthemiddle wrote: »

Do you believe grassroots are the people who enjoying running and enter mass participation events or the people who willingly give their time to ensure these events are a success and who take pride in the development of their athletes?.

I don't think there has to be a distinction made. I know loads of people who run and are non-club members, who give their time for the development of the sport (Community Games, IMRA). I genuinely don't know what "grassroots" means in the context of this thread, and agree with you that its a matter of perception. I perceive lots of people contributing to the sport of running and athletics who have no need for the AAI. That's just my perception, I'm sure I'd feel a lot different if XC/track was my thing.

sean_84

Tingle wrote: »

Now, if you are talking about the recreational runner, yes, there is a disconnect but with respect to the recreational runner, they are not the grassroots of the sport as they have no involvement in the sport apart from furthering their own means or goals, ie, going for a run 3/4 days a week and racing the odd race. Having said that, there is work being done through Fit4life to improve this connection to bring these people into the sport.

Why refer to non AC members as recreational runners? Are the vast majority of club runners not also running for fun/recreation? It comes across as a bit condescending.

I agree with you that most non AC members are not involved in the sport (in the sense of training others, funding clubs, watching track events etc), but I think you just have to accept that. Whether these people are grass-roots or not depend on the definition of grass-roots and there seems to be a few different ones in this thread

downthemiddle

donothoponpop wrote: »

I know loads of people who run and are non-club members, who give their time for the development of the sport (Community Games, IMRA).

It is interesting how IMRA have made a concerted effort to strengthen their links with the AAI in the past 12 months and I will readily admit that the Community Games was my gateway back into the sport.
However the AAI have overall responsibility for athletics in Ireland and I would prefer to be inside the tent. Take the AAI members away from the sport and see what happens.

--amadeus--

tunney wrote: »

I drive a car a few times a week - Does that make me a rally driver and does that then mean that the Rally Ireland is disconnected from grass roots because they don't cater for me and people like me?

It depends - do you compete in rallies? If yes then you are a rally driver (or navigator) and Rally Ireland should represent you.

I get the feeling this is an insoluble argument because - as said above - it depends on your definition of "grassroots". Pedantic hat on:

adjective-
of, pertaining to, or involving the common people, esp. as contrasted with or separable from an elite: a grass-roots movement for nuclear disarmament.

(from dictionary.com)

To my mind the "common people" are the regular, ordinary joe soaps who run a few times a week and race a couple of times a year. They are your grassroots. For me the dividing line is races. If you plod on a treadmill in a gym a couple of times a week and never race you're not grassroots. As soon as you put a number on then you are part of the sport even if you are not a club member. By the definitions some of you are throwing around I'm not involved in the sport!

Noone is arguing that the AAI shouldn't include these people. Noone is saying they wouldn't like to or are deliberatley excluding them. But unless and until the AAI becomes as relevant to mass participation runners as they are to club athletes and competitive runners then they cannot claim to represent the true grassroots of the sport.

downthemiddle

donothoponpop

downthemiddle wrote: »

It is interesting how IMRA have made a concerted effort to strengthen their links with the AAI in the past 12 months and I will readily admit that the Community Games was my gateway back into the sport.

I believe the reason for this was high-performance related, in that to send a team to the World Mountain Running Champs, AAI umbrella was needed (I stand to be corrected on this). Certainly IMRA functioned very well (at a grassroots level) before this strengthing of links.

Racing Flat

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But unless and until the AAI becomes as relevant to mass participation runners as they are to club athletes and competitive runners then they cannot claim to represent the true grassroots of the sport.

You seem to think the onus is on the AAI to make themselves relevant to mass participation runners. Is there any onus on mass participation runners to make themselves relevant to the AAI (by joining a club)? Surely the AAI can only influence issues relating to their members, i.e. they have no remit to do anything in relation to non-members.


Edit - a good example of the latter is boards.ie members forming an athletics club and getting affiliation with the AAI and now participating at County Board meetings.

plodder

What is and isn't the grass roots isn't really the point. Maybe the question should be, what could be done towards broadening the base of the sport? Here's are some things that AAI/clubs could do, which would make me want to join one.

- take the BHAA model and instead of businesses, make it based on clubs, ie a Winter XC running league (individuals and teams) catering for all levels, elite to plodder. Road races in Summer.
- let the BHAA themselves run the show in Dublin (and Cork?)
- do it by region else where.
- people joining clubs would then get a place on a team at an appropriate level.
- personally I wouldn't expect to get coaching, but some advice maybe in the form of occasional seminars/ group talks on anything of interest.
- optional meet and train
- some kind of social aspect as well.

I'm sure someone will tell me, that a lot of clubs do this already, but like other sports, most people want to join a club for the ability to compete for the club against others, and it's hard to get away from the feeling that the AAI only organises this at present for the very highest levels.

Racing Flat

In relation to ^^^^^ I'd like to see Senior, Intermediate and Novice categories that are there in xc and road races to be introduced to track and field. The Dublin Graded meetings facilitate this to a certain extent, but it might be nice if there were National Champs for Novice and Inter.

shels4ever

Racing Flat wrote: »

In relation to ^^^^^ I'd like to see Senior, Intermediate and Novice categories that are there in xc and road races to be introduced to track and field. The Dublin Graded meetings facilitate this to a certain extent, but it might be nice if there were National Champs for Novice and Inter.

I like the sound of that

Racing Flat

Racing Flat wrote: »

In relation to ^^^^^ I'd like to see Senior, Intermediate and Novice categories that are there in xc and road races to be introduced to track and field. The Dublin Graded meetings facilitate this to a certain extent, but it might be nice if there were National Champs for Novice and Inter.

shels4ever wrote: »

I like the sound of that

Tingle,

I can manage about 90secs for 400m. Do you think you could coach me to get around over the hurdles in 2mins? I think that might be good enough to get me into the Novice semi-final. After that who knows - with a bit of luck I might bag a fastest loser spot in the final .

downthemiddle

Racing Flat wrote: »

Tingle,

I can manage about 90secs for 400m. Do you think you could coach me to get around over the hurdles in 2mins? I think that might be good enough to get me into the Novice semi-final. After that who knows - with a bit of luck I might bag a fastest loser spot in the final .

Only if he works on your trail leg

sean_84

Racing Flat wrote: »

You seem to think the onus is on the AAI to make themselves relevant to mass participation runners. Is there any onus on mass participation runners to make themselves relevant to the AAI (by joining a club)? Surely the AAI can only influence issues relating to their members, i.e. they have no remit to do anything in relation to non-members.

Why would mass participation runners (whatever that means ) change themselves to be more relvant to an organisation that they likely don't care about and may not even know exists.

How do other sports do this? I think the IRFU is involved in some tag-rugby leagues, are astro-turf and other local soccer leagues associated with the FAI? But I suppose ther are differences in that people in these sports would usually also watch the sport at professional level, but in my experience a lot of people who run have no interest in watching events.

--amadeus--

Racing Flat wrote: »

You seem to think the onus is on the AAI to make themselves relevant to mass participation runners. Is there any onus on mass participation runners to make themselves relevant to the AAI (by joining a club)? Surely the AAI can only influence issues relating to their members, i.e. they have no remit to do anything in relation to non-members.


Edit - a good example of the latter is boards.ie members forming an athletics club and getting affiliation with the AAI and now participating at County Board meetings.

But isn't the onus on the AAI, through the clubs, to make membership relevant and attractive? Which is a conversation we've had on here many times.

Put it this way can you imagine what would happen if a representative team from Cork played a representative team from Kerry at Gaelic Football without bothering to involve the GAA? Can you imagine a situation where the GAA would simply sit back and say "sure, none of them are in our clubs, let them do what they want" (especially if thousands of euro are at stake!). Can you imagine the GAA clubs and members of those clubs looking at the match and thinking "well why aren't they trying harder to make themselves relevant to us?". The same logic applies to any sport.

There are an order of magnitude more runners (and road racers) who are outside the AAI structure than are in it. And there are ever increasing numbers of races being organised without reference to either clubs or the AAI. Now if I was involved in a sports governing body and I saw non-members participating in high quality events in my sport that I hadn't sanctioned I'd be bouncing off the walls trying to get those people involved.

Did you know that I emailed the PR rep for the AAI, introduced Boards and this section and gave a bit of a run down on who we are and our audience (did you know that Boards.ie gets close on a million page views per day?). I had spoken to the site management and had a green light to offer them a free official account here and explained that it would be a great way to communicate directly with runners.

I got a polite "no thanks".

So I asked if they could at least send press releases. They agreed and we've had 2 from them, both the next day and *nothing* in the months since.

When the tools are so readily available to re-energise the sport and the organisation and all you see are outsiders profiteering from it due to officials inaction it is very, very frustrating.

shels4ever

sean_84 wrote: »

Why would mass participation runners (whatever that means ) change themselves to be more relvant to an organisation that they likely don't care about and may not even know exists.

How do other sports do this? I think the IRFU is involved in some tag-rugby leagues, are astro-turf and other local soccer leagues associated with the FAI? But I suppose ther are differences in that people in these sports would usually also watch the sport at professional level, but in my experience a lot of people who run have no interest in watching events.

Dont you need to register with Triathlon ireland to race in their races, think you can get a day licence (membership) for a specific race etc . Its a way of maybe getting more members? maybe the tri people can expand

shels4ever

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But isn't the onus on the AAI, through the clubs, to make membership relevant and attractive? Which is a conversation we've had on here many times.

my local gaa club had a social membership for people who wanted to play a little, but most just used the club bar....

Racing Flat

downthemiddle wrote: »

Only if he works on your trail leg

No need for that - I'll just hope I get lane 1 or lane 8, then I won't really have to worry about it .

Seriously though, if you take the 1500 for example. Last few years you'd need to be within a few seconds of 4 minutes (for men) to make the final. So many of the entrants are around there, with some around 4.10 looking to get a PB I suppose but not expecting to make the final. But there's occasionally someone from down the country at around 4.30 or so. If you are in Dublin the Graded meetings will cater for this person and maybe the likes of Leevale sports day caters for this runner, but there may be many people out there who like the 1500 but don't get too many chances to race. In school theer are plenty oppurtunities and once a vet there are oppurtunites again, but I wonder whether a Novice/Inter system would be popular for those in between these ages, but not at the top end time wise?

hunnymonster

I think it would be very popular myself. I was an underage sprinter (who somehow came back as a marathoner in my dotage!!!) but I would love to have a go on the track again in a fun situation. In a real race I'd be left for dust.

plodder

sean_84 wrote: »

mass participation runners

Maybe we need to set up a "Mass participation athletics association of ireland". No events with fewer than 5,000 entrants will be allowed. Or a "Recreational athletics association of ireland" -- not sure about the rules for that one. maybe you wouldn't be allowed to run fast .

are astro-turf and other local soccer leagues associated with the FAI?

local soccer leagues certainly are. They aren't run directly by the FAI, but by organisations that are affiliated to them.

My son plays in the NDSL (an underage league just in the North Dublin area) which caters for nearly 15,000 active players, of all standards. :cool:

mithril

The disconnect appears to be particularly bad in Ireland.
I have run a few marathons on the continent and it's striking how higher the proportion of club vests is compared with at home.

I don't know the reason for this.

Possibly, good government funding makes it more attractive to join a club in France or Spain compared with Irish clubs which I understand have to raise most of their own funds.

Or maybe the high temperatures make recreational running a less attractive pastime than in Ireland and only runners at a good standard participate, who are more likely to gravitate towards a club.

downthemiddle

plodder wrote: »

local soccer leagues certainly are. They aren't run directly by the FAI, but by organisations that are affiliated to them.

My son plays in the NDSL (an underage league just in the North Dublin area) which caters for nearly 15,000 active players, of all standards. :cool:

Sounds like the events which are run with an AAI permit such as the mini marathon, the great Dublin run, the Dublin marathon etc.

DangerMouse27

In Tullamore a few years back there was a business track league which got great support.The only criteria was that you couldnt be a member of any athletics club.The events were 100m,400m,1500m,3000m,Long Jump,Shot Putt and medley relays which got very competitive.The companies that took part were as varied as Dunnes Stores to H.S.E.
This event was not in any way to do with the business houses association or athletics ireland.It was mre of a local sports day thing.
Didnt go ahead after that year due to finding days in the calendar which suited.

Think of the success of tag rugby,surely a fun athletics equivalent would be good craic and introduce alot of people to the joy of our sport.

downthemiddle

mithril wrote: »

Possibly, good government funding makes it more attractive to join a club in France or Spain compared with Irish clubs which I understand have to raise most of their own funds.

Every small town/village in France has its' own sports centre. Normally you have a football pitch, running track and swimming pool which the local community have access to. Most clubs in Ireland do not have such facilities. Track time in Santry during the evening is precious.
Because most clubs lack facilities people are less inclined to make them their first port of call. It's easier to head out on the road. The lack of facilities in this country is a disgrace. The GAA deserve great credit for the work they have done facility wise but, in general, we are a third world country facility wise.
One suggestion I made before the last election was for an all weather strip 5 metres wide around the Polo Grounds with low grade lighting. A simple suggestion which would have benefited hundreds. We won't see it now.
If more clubs had better facilities you would find more people gravitating towards them.

thirtyfoot

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I get the feeling this is an insoluble argument because

I think if you spend sometime in the middle of a well functioning club in Ireland (of which we have so many) then I believe you will soften your stance. With respect, you have never been in the active club environment so I think your journey into what the grassroots of the sport is very brief and unexplored and confined to the green shoots.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Pedantic hat on:

(from dictionary.com)

To my mind the "common people" are the regular, ordinary joe soaps who run a few times a week and race a couple of times a year. They are your grassroots. For me the dividing line is races. If you plod on a treadmill in a gym a couple of times a week and never race you're not grassroots. As soon as you put a number on then you are part of the sport even if you are not a club member. By the definitions some of you are throwing around I'm not involved in the sport!

I am not denying you are grassroots but you are denying that me and my fellow 30,000 members are grassroots. I get offended by that and wonder are you having a laugh and wonder do you have a clue what you are talking about here with the opinion you have. Seriously, are you having a laugh, have you ever seen a fully functioning club operate. There are 30,000 common people in AAI, 16 olympians. 300 common people in my club, 1 Olympian. I am fellow club member of 8 year olds and 60 year old road runners and men and women who haven't been on a track or road in 40 years. We all share the same vest and the same track. We have a lot of very common people in our neck of the woods.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Noone is arguing that the AAI shouldn't include these people. Noone is saying they wouldn't like to or are deliberatley excluding them. But unless and until the AAI becomes as relevant to mass participation runners as they are to club athletes and competitive runners then they cannot claim to represent the true grassroots of the sport.

Again, you are having a laugh by saying the mass participation runner is the grassroots of the sport. I will put this down to proximity bias as thats your world and thats what you know. Believe me, there is more to running let alone athletics than the new jogging boom. I am sorry to burst your bubble but the mass participation runner is not the sole resident of the grassroots club. How many RDOs do the mass particpation runners have working up and down the country? How many schools comps do they organise? How many kids do they give a future to and give friends for life? I could go on.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Did you know that I emailed the PR rep for the AAI, introduced Boards and this section and gave a bit of a run down on who we are and our audience (did you know that Boards.ie gets close on a million page views per day?). I had spoken to the site management and had a green light to offer them a free official account here and explained that it would be a great way to communicate directly with runners.

I got a polite "no thanks".

To bring an official rep on here would be PR suicide. Debating with anonymous clowns like us would be a lose-lose situation. Don't know but do GAA, IRFU and FAI have official reps on those boards?

Alas, I believe your knowledge of sporting PR is on a par with your knowledge of the 'real' grassroots of running, in my opinion. Come on here and get destroyed about issues and items that they couldn't really post on anyway for threat of it being used against them. No self respecting NGB would do that in my opinion. No self respecting club would either and thankfully none do.

Communication in AAI maybe a problem but using boards as a vehicle for that would be PR suicide as i said. While there are many posters here, I think you over estimate the effect that boards has on the running world. Most of grassroots are out doing sh8t instead of wasting time with us keyboard warriors.

Anyway, there are enough of us AAI grassroot members on here to fight the corner if its needed or tell a few home truths about our organisation too if needed.

On the releases etc, have you contacted them and did you hear back that it was official policy to remove you from the dist list? Could it have been a clerical error? Check it and see and come back and update us, would be interested to see the outcome or explanation from them or that it was a deliberate policy, could be wrong though.

thirtyfoot

sean_84 wrote: »

Why refer to non AC members as recreational runners? Are the vast majority of club runners not also running for fun/recreation? It comes across as a bit condescending.

Its only a term that is regularly used in running circles. Don't read too much into it. In essence, all those who don't rely on the sport for a living are recreational runners (ie 99.99%). The word is not intended to be condescedning. If there is another there I will use it.

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

Tingle,

I can manage about 90secs for 400m. Do you think you could coach me to get around over the hurdles in 2mins? I think that might be good enough to get me into the Novice semi-final. After that who knows - with a bit of luck I might bag a fastest loser spot in the final .

If you get rid of those Ron Hill tights (you know, the ones with the loops at the bottom) anything is possible.

shels4ever

Tingle wrote: »

Again, you are having a laugh by saying the mass participation runner is the grassroots of the sport. I will put this down to proximity bias as thats your world and thats what you know. Believe me, there is more to running let alone athletics than the new jogging boom. I am sorry to burst your bubble but the mass participation runner is not the sole resident of the grassroots club. How many RDOs do the mass particpation runners have working up and down the country? How many schools comps do they organise? How many kids do they give a future to and give friends for life? I could go on.

Have to agree there mass participation is not grass roots of the sport, its part of the sport but not grass roots, my understanding is that from grass roots of the sport our future internationls should come from, Its just like say that from tag rugby you might make the 6 nations squad, or from your astro team you'll make the world cup.

Both are parts of the sport that do need to be developed but not grass roots of the sport, this is in our junior clubs, schools etc.

helpisontheway

"Athletics is a collection of sports events that involve running, throwing, jumping and walking."
Therefore i would presume grassroot athletics is promoted by the AAI and clubs within it who offer all those events to the general public.
So i would think unless your part of a club you are not part of grassroot athletics.
People who jog or even run in races are joggers/runners and IMO can only be part of grassroot athletics if they are part of an athletics club.
I play midfield for my indoor soccer team the few times we play in a tournament but it doesnt make me a soccer player or in any way part of grassroots soccer.

donothoponpop

Tingle wrote: »

To bring an official rep on here would be PR suicide. Debating with anonymous clowns like us would be a lose-lose situation. Don't know but do GAA, IRFU and FAI have official reps on those boards?

Alas, I believe your knowledge of sporting PR is on a par with your knowledge of the 'real' grassroots of running, in my opinion. Come on here and get destroyed about issues and items that they couldn't really post on anyway for threat of it being used against them. No self respecting NGB would do that in my opinion. No self respecting club would either and thankfully none do.

Communication in AAI maybe a problem but using boards as a vehicle for that would be PR suicide as i said. While there are many posters here, I think you over estimate the effect that boards has on the running world. Most of grassroots are out doing sh8t instead of wasting time with us keyboard warriors.

That's very cynical. What would be wrong with the AAI engaging with this forum? There's already plenty of athletics coaches, high caliber athletes, race directors who post here, give good advice, and don't get "destroyed" when doing so. There's a captive audience of runners here, with varying degrees of talent and interest, what would be wrong with an official from AAI (for instance) asking about volunteering to help at AAI events? The DCM pacers idea came from Boards (amadeus), was very successful, had a very successful effect on the running world. There's a lot more constructive stuff on this forum than negative.

--amadeus--

I hate doing line by line rebuttals on posts, it always seems argumentative and confrontational and I don't think anyone other than the two people bickering ever read them, but anyway..

Tingle wrote: »

I think if you spend sometime in the middle of a well functioning club in Ireland (of which we have so many) then I believe you will soften your stance. With respect, you have never been in the active club environment so I think your journey into what the grassroots of the sport is very brief and unexplored and confined to the green shoots.


I am not denying you are grassroots but you are denying that me and my fellow 30,000 members are grassroots. I get offended by that and wonder are you having a laugh ...

If you're going to start swinging then please at least read what I've posted.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I agree 100% that the AAI, through the medium of clubs, is involved in grassroots running.

Where I think we differ is that I would see the clubs as being involved in a fairly small percentage of the overall grassroots running "scene". While clubs are involved in grassroots they are a long way away from being all of the grassroots.

I am in no way denying you anything. The point I am making is that the sport does not end at the club gates. There are races that do not have AAI sanction. There are runners who do not have any form of AAI affiliation. They are still runners and still involved in the sport. The clubs might not like it but that doesn't mean it's not true.

Tingle wrote: »

Again, you are having a laugh by saying the mass participation runner is the grassroots of the sport. I will put this down to proximity bias as thats your world and thats what you know.

Ok, I'll ignore the "jogging boom" stuff. I think athlete pot may want to meet athlete kettle...

I was active in both the local and the schools athletics club when I was growing up. I have had a few dealings with local athletics clubs (some through my OH's job, some through people I know, some because of my kids and trying to get them involved). I'm a current and active member of a sports club in a different discipline and have been active in clubs and societies pretty much all my life. I've also had some dealings with the AAI directly about other things. Have I been an adult member of a local athletics club in Ireland? No. Have I had more dealings with people outside the club structure? Yes. Is it possible that this has influenced my opinion? Probable.

But Tingle you are a former international athlete. You've been an active member of a running club since you were a pre-teen. You have admitted that a decent chunk of your social life revolves around the club and the friends you have made through it. Don't you think you have some proximity bias of your own?

Tingle wrote: »

To bring an official rep on here would be PR suicide...Alas, I believe your knowledge of sporting PR is on a par with your knowledge of the 'real' grassroots of running, in my opinion...Communication in AAI maybe a problem but using boards as a vehicle for that would be PR suicide as i said. While there are many posters here, I think you over estimate the effect that boards has on the running world. Most of grassroots are out doing sh8t instead of wasting time with us keyboard warriors.

On the releases etc, have you contacted them...

I got your PM on press releases, cheers. I'll follow up on that.

As for the rest - do we really have to get down to digs about a lack of knowledge and understanding? PR suicide? You better tell that to RTE and Vodafone who both have an official presence on here (with more very big names in teh pipeline).

I'm under no illusions about the lack of "power" that this forum has. But I think you are underestimating it's influence. If runners want information about Irish running there are three sources for that. Irish Runner, RunIreland and here. We offer direct and unfiltered access to thousands of active Irish runners and triathletes. And I think it's doing a disservice to assume that posters here would "slaughter" teh AAI - in fact early and proactive engagement with people over issues like the recent cross country events might draw the fangs of the "keyboard warriors"

My original point - and one I'll make again as it seems to be forgotten or ognored - is that the AAI are the governing body for running in Ireland. Yet every single month there are unsanctioned road races. In every county in Ireland and at every distance from 5k to 100 miles there are thousands of people engaging in the sport of running who have zero connection to the body that is supposed to govern them.

It is very easy to be dismissive - "ahh it's just another jogging boom, it'll be them recreational runners, leave them off, sure the club will be there when they're all gone". Where on earth do you think new club members come from? They don't bounce out of thier mothers womb wearing a shiny pair of Asics and a club vest. They are people who do a bit of running, do a race and think "I'll join a club". Or it kids who see thier parents or whoever racing (god forbid maybe even being a monster munch runner) and ask if they can get involved - and off to the club they go.

Forget the term "grassroots" for a second. Running is a pyramid. At the top you have the world record holders. Below them the top elites. Below them the international and national standard runners, then regional champions, competitive club runners, general club runners (and of course coaches, administrators, ect). Every level feeds into the level above. But who's below the general club runner?

Well that would be your "recreational runner", at the base of the pyramid. I don't think the grass gets much rootier...

helpisontheway

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Forget the term "grassroots" for a second. Running is a pyramid. At the top you have the world record holders. Below them the top elites. Below them the international and national standard runners, then regional champions, competitive club runners, general club runners (and of course coaches, administrators, ect). Every level feeds into the level above. But who's below the general club runner?

Well that would be your "recreational runner", at the base of the pyramid. I don't think the grass gets much rootier...

I would say Juvenile ATHLETES[i hate the word runner] are at the base of the pyramid myself!

ChickenTikka

donothoponpop wrote: »

What would be wrong with the AAI engaging with this forum? There's already plenty of athletics coaches, high caliber athletes, race directors who post here, give good advice, and don't get "destroyed" when doing so.

I think AAI posting press releases here themselves would be great.

But I'm not sure if its such a good idea for them to engage in dialogue here with anonymous posters in this forum. Who knows but some of those anonymous posters could be disgruntled members of AAI national commiteees having a go at the leadership, or playing politics.

But if it wasn't anonymous, I think it would be good to be able to provide feedback and comments on the sport straight to the top of AAI. That won't happen on boards, so maybe the boards posters who are on AAI national committees could suggest to AAI to have a forum on their own website for this! (The grassroots would see it then and not just the oversized recreational joggers on this forum )

sean_84

Tingle wrote: »

Its only a term that is regularly used in running circles. Don't read too much into it. In essence, all those who don't rely on the sport for a living are recreational runners (ie 99.99%). The word is not intended to be condescedning. If there is another there I will use it.

Well, if that's really the case then recreational runner also applies to the vast majority of AC members (AAI members). And as you stated earlier that recreational runners are not the grassroots, then I think we have an answer to the thread title...

Next we can try to figure out where runners who participate in mass fit in to this

--amadeus--

ChickenTikka wrote: »

But if it wasn't anonymous, I think it would be good to be able to provide feedback and comments on the sport straight to the top of AAI. That won't happen on boards, so maybe the boards posters who are on AAI national committees could suggest to AAI to have a forum on their own website for this! (The grassroots would see it then and not just the oversized recreational joggers on this forum )

In theory it's a great idea for the AAI to host thier own forum. IMRA do it and they would retain full editorial control.

But it's also pretty risky, in the sense it's a bit of no win situation. Look at the situation in Coleraine. If people post negative comments on an AAI website and the AAI remove them then they are censoring and stifling free speech (or that's what they'll be accused of). If they leave negative comments up though the people who are being accused will be (understandably) upset at thier governing body hosting what may well be inaccurate and misleading accusations.

Which opens up another avenue - what can the AAI do to reach out to those people who run and race but currently sit outside it's structures?

I think better communication, better promotion of and a big expansion of the Fit4life groups and a functioning permit system that includes a quality control element would be a great start. And what gets me so frustrated is that the foundation is there - the communication tools are available, Fit4life is in place, there is a permit scheme.

It just needs improving, if the will and energy was there.