€80000 a year staff nurses

nursextreme

I am one of the many newly qualified Mental Health Nurses that can’t get a job working for the HSE due to “The Recruitment Embargo”.
This embargo was initiated by the current regime two years ago to cut the public sector wage bill.
Taking my city as an example: in the past two years there have been 30-40 retirements in our service.
The Mental health service can’t afford to reduce services offered to the public, especially in the current climate of job losses, decline in living standards and mounting debts.
In my area the gap in staff numbers has been filled by young inexperienced students, agency nurses and the “Overtime Gravy Train”
• A newly qualified Nurse would cost the HSE €35000 a year approx
• An agency nurse costs approx €50000 a year plus another €15000 to the Agency as a commission
• A senior nurse earning €50000 a year will supplement their income by another €25000-30000 a year through overtime.
Sadly for the country nurses like myself who would gladly work for €35000 a year cant get HSE contracts, but luckily for us we can earn more working agency for doing the same job and the same job the nurse on €80000 a year is doing.
Maybe my area is not exceptional, similar situations are taking place all over the country. Public Sector pay cuts are one thing but it must be highlighted that the HSE is throwing away your money.

bad2dabone

this is true, i've seen agency nurses payslips and p60's and they're impressive to say the least.

Sorry you can't get a job here cos the system is so rotten and messed up.

erictheviking

nursextreme wrote: »

I am one of the many newly qualified Mental Health Nurses that can’t get a job working for the HSE due to “The Recruitment Embargo”.
This embargo was initiated by the current regime two years ago to cut the public sector wage bill.
Taking my city as an example: in the past two years there have been 30-40 retirements in our service.
The Mental health service can’t afford to reduce services offered to the public, especially in the current climate of job losses, decline in living standards and mounting debts.
In my area the gap in staff numbers has been filled by young inexperienced students, agency nurses and the “Overtime Gravy Train”
• A newly qualified Nurse would cost the HSE €35000 a year approx
• An agency nurse costs approx €50000 a year plus another €15000 to the Agency as a commission
• A senior nurse earning €50000 a year will supplement their income by another €25000-30000 a year through overtime.
Sadly for the country nurses like myself who would gladly work for €35000 a year cant get HSE contracts, but luckily for us we can earn more working agency for doing the same job and the same job the nurse on €80000 a year is doing.
Maybe my area is not exceptional, similar situations are taking place all over the country. Public Sector pay cuts are one thing but it must be highlighted that the HSE is throwing away your money.

It would actually be cheaper to employ nurses:eek:
That kind of waste by the Govt. would never be picked up on. The blind hatred of public servants has given a lot of people tunnel vision.

Celticfire

So what you're saying that pay for nurses in the private sector is higher than the public sector, is that correct?

Sand

An agency nurse wouldnt get the same contract/permency/pension as a "conventional" nurse? If thats the case it would explain why its worth paying a higher amount for more flexiability and the avoidance of other expenses.

Other than that :HSE:

Someone needs to go through the payroll there with a hatchet. The whole health service badly needs reform. Not even for savings, but just to make the thing work.

BostonB

Contract workers have no pension. So theres a difference there.

woodseb

Celticfire wrote: »

So what you're saying that pay for nurses in the private sector is higher than the public sector, is that correct?

only when they are paid by the public sector

Welease

erictheviking wrote: »

It would actually be cheaper to employ nurses:eek:
That kind of waste by the Govt. would never be picked up on. The blind hatred of public servants has given a lot of people tunnel vision.

Why is it the governments fault?

Do the bosses/unions in the HSE not decide which roles are required? Did they not decide to have multiple layers of administration in place of front line staff? Do they not decide how to apportion out their headcount and therefore their staff budgets? I find it difficult to believe that everyone of those decisions is made directly by the government with no input from the public sector.

BostonB

woodseb wrote: »

only when they are paid by the public sector

Well contractors generally get paid more, than full time employees regardless of sector.

seclachi

When you think about it this must be happening with the embargo. Its extremely stupid, because if it continues for much longer the country will find a large graduate gap from all the people who simply left because they could not get work after finished college.

No doubt a small fortune is being spent on temp workers to plug the gap. Theres very few things the government has done right with the public service, all pay cuts do is leave the inefficiencies in place but pay them less. All the embargo does is leave areas understaffed. The right way to go would have been reforms and jobs cuts where possible.

woodseb

BostonB wrote: »

Well contractors generally get paid more, than full time employees regardless of sector.

that's true, but i'd like to see the rates for nurses contracted to the private sector as a comparison?

Pete4779

Makes sense as they scale back hospitals and services. It will reach an equilibrium where they know how many is needed to keep a service running, without having to hire people on permanent contracts.

At the moment, we have one of the highest number of nurses per GDP, so this will continue until ~ 20-30% retire to move towards normal/average levels of staffing.

RGS

Pete4779 wrote: »

Makes sense as they scale back hospitals and services. It will reach an equilibrium where they know how many is needed to keep a service running, without having to hire people on permanent contracts.

At the moment, we have one of the highest number of nurses per GDP, so this will continue until ~ 20-30% retire to move towards normal/average levels of staffing.

But, i believe, we also have the lowest number of hospital consultants compared to other health services in europe, thats why we have the highest number of nurses---its cheaper to pay nurses than doctors/consultants.

nursextreme

woodseb wrote: »

that's true, but i'd like to see the rates for nurses contracted to the private sector as a comparison?

http://www.nurseoncall.ie/pay_rates.php

heres a list of rates, but the employer still has to pay the agency their cut on top, plus employer prsi

nursextreme

Welease wrote: »

Why is it the governments fault?

Do the bosses/unions in the HSE not decide which roles are required? Did they not decide to have multiple layers of administration in place of front line staff? Do they not decide how to apportion out their headcount and therefore their staff budgets? I find it difficult to believe that everyone of those decisions is made directly by the government with no input from the public sector.

Who sanctioned the HSE and its multiple layers?

nursextreme

Celticfire wrote: »

So what you're saying that pay for nurses in the private sector is higher than the public sector, is that correct?

Higher than the newly qualified nurses but not as high as those who supplement their wages with massive amounts of overtime.

poisonated

I'm a little confused...If you can't get a job why don't you apply to one of these agencies?are you completely against nursing agencies?

Welease

nursextreme wrote: »

Who sanctioned the HSE and its multiple layers?

Sanctioning the HSE is completely different from running the HSE.

Are you stating... the government is solely responsible for the allocation of roles and staffing within the HSE from top to bottom? and that HSE itself plays no part is deciding where its resources are allocated?

Tragedy

The HSE is gambling short term contract worker pay until services stabilise versus long term public sector contract+wage bill.

To be honest, I don't disagree with them in this respect.

Now, a government and HSE that will design a new public sector contract please.

nursextreme

poisonated wrote: »

I'm a little confused...If you can't get a job why don't you apply to one of these agencies?are you completely against nursing agencies?

I am already working for an agency! But I would rather have a steady job where I could do what i am trained for and help people with mental health issues.

With the agency i work as a mercenary,a different area every day as a stop gap. This does not benefit the patients.

What i am against is the fact that in a recession I am being paid way over the odds for what I do, but what really gets to me is that some hse employed nurses are earning enough to employ two of my newly qualified colleagues.

Not all of us are motivated by money.

nursextreme

Welease wrote: »

Sanctioning the HSE is completely different from running the HSE.

Are you stating... the government is solely responsible for the allocation of roles and staffing within the HSE from top to bottom? and that HSE itself plays no part is deciding where its resources are allocated?

Thats not what i'm saying - I agree the HSE is is rotten to the core as our government - are you saying that the government has no idea what the HSE does or no control over them.

nursextreme

Tragedy wrote: »

The HSE is gambling short term contract worker pay until services stabilise versus long term public sector contract+wage bill.

To be honest, I don't disagree with them in this respect.

Now, a government and HSE that will design a new public sector contract please.

So let newly qualified nurses that cost a fortune to train leave our country and let senior staff earn 80000 a year and those nurses who have retired can supplement their pensions by working agency in their spare time.

Welease

nursextreme wrote: »

Thats not what i'm saying - I agree the HSE is is rotten to the core as our government - are you saying that the government has no idea what the HSE does or no control over them.

Not at all.. You need to read my initial post in response to the claim it was essentially the governments fault for the wastage, and people have blind hatred for the public sector. I responded that the government dont make the decisions to allocate resources within the HSE so how could it be their fault.

You then decided to address me stating it was the government who sanctioned the HSE... and again I stated what i stated in the first post....

So how does that mean i am saying the government has no idea what the HSE does... everyone does.. it however bears no relation to anything i have stated, or the points being made.

nursextreme

Who is ultimately to blame, who's head or heads should roll?

Welease

nursextreme wrote: »

Who is ultimately to blame, who's head or heads should roll?

lol now there's a question

I'd imagine it would be a list (a long list) of people, but what essentially would that solve.

As a country we need to look forward to fix the numerous issues that exist.
The HSE have the powers to decide what front line services are resourced vs. administration required to manage those services. The unions have the power to stop blocking attempts to modernise the service, propsed go slows etc.. The lower grade employees have the power to make the unions tow the line. The government have the power to remove those senior civil servants that are underperforming.
It will require all of those (and probably) more to look to the future and start working to create a HSE that serves the country not the other way round..

No single entity created the problem, and no single entity can fix it.

Tragedy

Who's to blame for newly qualified teachers being passed over for retired teachers when it comes to overtime work?

A) Unions.

They're as culpable as the HSE.

nursextreme

Welease wrote: »

lol now there's a question

I'd imagine it would be a list (a long list) of people, but what essentially would that solve.

As a country we need to look forward to fix the numerous issues that exist.
The HSE have the powers to decide what front line services are resourced vs. administration required to manage those services. The unions have the power to stop blocking attempts to modernise the service, propsed go slows etc.. The lower grade employees have the power to make the unions tow the line. The government have the power to remove those senior civil servants that are underperforming.
It will require all of those (and probably) more to look to the future and start working to create a HSE that serves the country not the other way round..

No single entity created the problem, and no single entity can fix it.

I agree with you 100% each problem has to be tackled individually. I have little power at the moment but soon we will have enough numbers to bring the unions into line. As long as they dont pay us off:D

nursextreme

Tragedy wrote: »

Who's to blame for newly qualified teachers being passed over for retired teachers when it comes to overtime work?

A) Unions.

They're as culpable as the HSE.

True! Its a case of looking after their old pals.

Nightwish

I just want to add that Mental Health Staff Nurses are exempt from the embargo. There is no ban on hiring them.

nursextreme

Nightwish wrote: »

I just want to add that Mental Health Staff Nurses are exempt from the embargo. There is no ban on hiring them.

I wish that was the case in my region, we have had no mh nurse recruited in my area in 2.5 years. I have heard that some places have alright. Sadly with us they prefer to have 30 agency RPNS working.:(

danman

Tragedy wrote: »

Who's to blame for newly qualified teachers being passed over for retired teachers when it comes to overtime work?

A) Unions.

They're as culpable as the HSE.

There is no embargo on recruiting teachers, this is a myth.

My young cousin is a newly qualified teacher.
She was interviewed for a full time position 3 weeks ago and got the job.

murphaph

RGS wrote: »

But, i believe, we also have the lowest number of hospital consultants compared to other health services in europe, thats why we have the highest number of nurses---its cheaper to pay nurses than doctors/consultants.

It is when 4 consultants cost a million euro a year. Consultants pay is also way too high.

Sleepy

Unfortunately this is a symptom of Irish government ministers refusing to accept responsibility for their roles. Until we have ministers who are prepared to accept that responsibility instead of creating a quango that they can point at and say 'it's their fault', this will continue until the end of days...

ven0m

erictheviking wrote: »

It would actually be cheaper to employ nurses:eek:
That kind of waste by the Govt. would never be picked up on. The blind hatred of public servants has given a lot of people tunnel vision.

Except the fact the decision to use agencies instead of hiring nurses ironically was done by another public servant ...... so technically, it was another public servant wasting the taxpayers money .....

implausible

danman wrote: »

There is no embargo on recruiting teachers, this is a myth.

My young cousin is a newly qualified teacher.
She was interviewed for a full time position 3 weeks ago and got the job.

Eh, what's that got to do with anything? No-one thinks there's an embargo on teachers. The thread is about nurses.

Those of you who are justifying spending more money on contract nurses to fill the gaps, rather than recruit and retain new nurses wake up! Who would you rather looking after you - someone trained, skilled and motivated in his/her specific area or someone who has to bounce around from hospital to hospital, unit to unit, for the cash, but doesn't want to? I know who I'd pick!

whatnext

ven0m wrote: »

Except the fact the decision to use agencies instead of hiring nurses ironically was done by another public servant ...... so technically, it was another public servant wasting the taxpayers money .....

Just to add a little bit of context here.

The OP says a newly qualified nurse gets c. 35k pa - Before overtime - so we can compare like with like.

And the nurse on call website quotes a rate of 276 for a 13 hour shift and 184 for 9 hours.
By the 3rd day of the week the agy nurse would have worked the 35 hours the employed nurses are contracted for. Soooo (276 + 276 + 184) x 52 weeks = 38k (assuming they work 52 weeks pa)
This includes no allowance for pension the cost of which is argued to be in the region of 40% (so to avoid a dispute we can say 20%)
So the 35k (emplowed nurse) above becomes 35 + 20% ie 42K. We wont co into shift allowances, privlage days, or study leave / finance to keep the playing field level.

Will the agency nurse get paid when on leave? Ans. Sometimes, but only for 20 days not 31.

Will the get paid sick pay? Ans No.

Employers PRSI is irrelavent as it applies to both

So in effect the Agency nurse still looks more expensive option even with an agy mark up of 42k v (38k + agy mark up of 20%?) 45.6K

But then you have the soft savings like sick leave and 50% extra holiday entitlements.

so its not a simple case of 80k v 35k

Tipp Man

Hold on now, have i read this correctly, there are nurses earning 80k a year??

Is this for real?? Has this country lost the plot completly

danman

deemark wrote: »

Eh, what's that got to do with anything? No-one thinks there's an embargo on teachers. The thread is about nurses.

Those of you who are justifying spending more money on contract nurses to fill the gaps, rather than recruit and retain new nurses wake up! Who would you rather looking after you - someone trained, skilled and motivated in his/her specific area or someone who has to bounce around from hospital to hospital, unit to unit, for the cash, but doesn't want to? I know who I'd pick!

We continually read in this forum about the embargo of recruitment in the public services. This thread is about the embargo on recruitment. I'm simply giving an exmple of where there is no embargo.
Teachers have stated this embargo myth, all I'm pointing out is that this embargo doesn't exist in one perticular service, how do we know that the embargo exists in all other services.

As for nurses bouncing around for cash, Nurses are trained to help patients. if their training isn't sufficient for one task in a unit, I'm sure the nursing management (sisters, or what ever they are now called) will only allow them to do basic nursing staff.

I've spent enough time in hospitals to know that I've never met a younger generation nurse that could not do their job. these younger nurses are the ones that are doing contract work.

If I've ever had any bad experiences with nurses, it's been the ones that have been in the same unit for years. I've always found the younger nurses are the ones that I can ask questions off, or that they are more proffessional with better bedside manners.

Just because someone is in a full time position, with a guarenteed job, does not make them a better nurse.

jimmycrackcorm

Tipp Man wrote: »

Hold on now, have i read this correctly, there are nurses earning 80k a year??

Is this for real?? Has this country lost the plot completly

I think it's this thread that has lost the plot. The OH is a senior Staff Nurse; if I ask her why she is not earning 80K I'd get laughed out of it. It is possible though but to do so you'd have to do only night duty + weekend work on overtime and basically have no time off.

gandalf

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think it's this thread that has lost the plot. The OH is a senior Staff Nurse; if I ask her why she is not earning 80K I'd get laughed out of it. It is possible though but to do so you'd have to do only night duty + weekend work on overtime and basically have no time off.

Yeah Jimmy or else she is pocketing the rest and not being straight with you

TBH the whole way the HSE is administered needs to be addressed from the top down. Management structures need to be simplified and that nice fat middle layer of superfluous management allowed to fester and grow by the government and unions needs to be lyposuctioned out.

That will free up resources to allow us have the right mix of front line staff and to allow us have the finances to ensure they have the best equipment to do their jobs.

Ste.phen

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think it's this thread that has lost the plot. The OH is a senior Staff Nurse; if I ask her why she is not earning 80K I'd get laughed out of it. It is possible though but to do so you'd have to do only night duty + weekend work on overtime and basically have no time off.

Aye, the OP here said the 80k figure was with overtime.

nursextreme

Ste.phen wrote: »

Aye, the OP here said the 80k figure was with overtime.

The 80000 figure is based on a senior staff nurse mental health working night duty (time and a quarter) plus overtime which is 1.5 times basic rate (I think).

Some will work every day the can, even while on annual leave, and if the do get burned out from overworking a few sick days here and there don't go amiss.

seangal

I know a case where the HSE pay €800 to an agency for a nurse for 2 nights. It is shamefull to see this and now we hear that irish nurses are going to the Uk for jobs and this means that the NHS has cut out the use of agency nurses

implausible

danman wrote: »

We continually read in this forum about the embargo of recruitment in the public services. This thread is about the embargo on recruitment. I'm simply giving an exmple of where there is no embargo.
Teachers have stated this embargo myth, all I'm pointing out is that this embargo doesn't exist in one perticular service, how do we know that the embargo exists in all other services.

As for nurses bouncing around for cash, Nurses are trained to help patients. if their training isn't sufficient for one task in a unit, I'm sure the nursing management (sisters, or what ever they are now called) will only allow them to do basic nursing staff.

I've spent enough time in hospitals to know that I've never met a younger generation nurse that could not do their job. these younger nurses are the ones that are doing contract work.

If I've ever had any bad experiences with nurses, it's been the ones that have been in the same unit for years. I've always found the younger nurses are the ones that I can ask questions off, or that they are more proffessional with better bedside manners.

Just because someone is in a full time position, with a guarenteed job, does not make them a better nurse.

You're throwing around a myth that doesn't exist. There is a huge shortage of jobs and a promotional embargo in teaching; there is a recruitment embargo in nursing. The example you're adding to this forum is inaccurate.

If a nurse has training in a specific area, surely s/he will serve the interest of the patients best in that area? I never stated that any nurse was incompetent. I don't think that blocking nurses' access to job security, sick pay etc, serves anybody. Permanency is NOT a dirty word (permanency with accountability) and doesn't make someone a worse employee.

Dannyboy83

I can confirm a similar story with young relatives here in nursing, and also with pharma - everything seems to be through an agency and colossal amounts of money and time are being wasted.
(the amount of money that appeared to be wasted during the recent pharmacy dispute was horrifying)

I also have an elder relative in a specialized role (cancer) who is quite unhappy with the situation, she would rather take a pay cut and allow other nurses/specialists have some permanency for the patients benefit.
Not everyone is motivated by money (past a certain point).

To be fair, its extremely rare to hear the HSE defended by anyone operating within it so it does seem they are somewhat trapped within that system.

Likewise with the teachers, 2 friends are teaching near 5 years and still temps, despite being far more able and far more ambitious than many of the senior time servers.

I wouldn't for a second pretend that similar nonsense doesn't happen in the private sector. Having worked for major German and American MNLs employer, I can confirm it does.
However, its not so frequent or so shortsighted and bottom line, they are not funded by the Irish taxpayer.

Outside of legislation, nobody can dictate to a private company how to run their affairs.
We can and should ensure the HSE (or its successor) will be as efficient as possible.

So, what can we do to change it?

jimmycrackcorm

Ste.phen wrote: »

Aye, the OP here said the 80k figure was with overtime.

Very good, but we're not simply talking about doing a couple of hours overtime here... Having seen at the payslips first hand I can see that a nurse would not only have to be able to pick and choose the optimum shifts available but also work all possible hours to get this.

Suffice to say that it is entitrely possible this morning but unfortunately for nurses they still are required for normal day shifts unless a lucky few get to work this pattern.

waitingforBB

When the strikes were taking place, Vincent Browne interviewed a young nurse, 3 years qualified protesting about the potential cuts. She was earning almost 50K.

bobbyjoe

waitingforBB wrote: »

When the strikes were taking place, Vincent Browne interviewed a young nurse, 3 years qualified protesting about the potential cuts. She was earning almost 50K.

3 years qualified in what? How much of that was overtime?

You want a McNurse or RyanNurse looking after your Ma when she's sick?

I overheard a young nurse discussing death with a cancer patient he was deciding if he wanted to continue with treatment with the associated pain or die home. (He was terminal at this stage). She was in her early twenties, probably done more on a human level that Sean Fitz ever did.

People who go into nursing and work in hospices are such greedy mofo's in it for the money the lot of them. Unlike them nice banker types who just want to help the community.

****ing shame we are attacking those who do most for our society.

murphaph

bobbyjoe wrote: »

You want a McNurse or RyanNurse looking after your Ma when she's sick?

Are UK or German nurses "McNurses"? They receive the sort of pay you believe to indicate it is so. Would you refuse medical care from a british nurse? JOKE!

ei.sdraob

bobbyjoe wrote: »

3 years qualified in what? How much of that was overtime?

You want a McNurse or RyanNurse looking after your Ma when she's sick?

I overheard a young nurse discussing death with a cancer patient he was deciding if he wanted to continue with treatment with the associated pain or die home. (He was terminal at this stage). She was in her early twenties, probably done more on a human level that Sean Fitz ever did.

People who go into nursing and work in hospices are such greedy mofo's in it for the money the lot of them. Unlike them nice banker types who just want to help the community.

****ing shame we are attacking those who do most for our society.

our children wont have nurses since all their money they pay in taxes would go to pay interest on loans taken out by us

think about it

MI5

This whole thing is driving me mental :cool: