scamming the social welfare

sec1307

everyone is complaining about the budget......social welfare fraud is what we should be raging about!!! if payments were only given to those who needed it then the countrys finances would be a different story

how many people do you know on the dole that are working on the sly??? i know at least 4

how many girls do you know getting lone parent allowance while living with the father of the child or even a boyfriend AND getting rent allowance on top of it???? i know at least 6

how many people do you know living at home while pretending to live with a family member rent free so that they could cliam the full dole??? i know at least 10

how many people do you know that sign on for 3days and work for 3 while they are actually are working 5 days and just banking those extra hours for when they leave the job...big payout!!......i know at least 5

so maybe instead of us all complaining about how the budget has screwed us maybe we should be blaming john down the road
i can only imnagine how much money the country will save if these peolple are reported. THESE PEOPLE ARE STEALING FROM OUR POCKETS AND OUR CHILDRENS POCKETS so do the decent thing are report them......www.welfare.ie.....no1 will know who it was

billy the squid

Doesn't that make you complicit given you didn't pick up the phone and shop them?

P. Breathnach

I hold no brief for fraud.

But I am surprised that you manage to know as many as 25 people who are ripping off the system. The part that surprises me most is that you seem to know what actual benefits they draw.

I can honestly say that I do not know anybody that I know is cheating on SW claims. I can think of one or two people who might possibly be. I can also think of a number of people I know that I suspect are cheating on their tax -- but again, I don't actually know.

gerry28

sec1307 wrote: »

everyone is complaining about the budget......social welfare fraud is what we should be raging about!!! if payments were only given to those who needed it then the countrys finances would be a different story

how many people do you know on the dole that are working on the sly??? i know at least 4

how many girls do you know getting lone parent allowance while living with the father of the child or even a boyfriend AND getting rent allowance on top of it???? i know at least 6

how many people do you know living at home while pretending to live with a family member rent free so that they could cliam the full dole??? i know at least 10

how many people do you know that sign on for 3days and work for 3 while they are actually are working 5 days and just banking those extra hours for when they leave the job...big payout!!......i know at least 5

so maybe instead of us all complaining about how the budget has screwed us maybe we should be blaming john down the road
i can only imnagine how much money the country will save if these peolple are reported. THESE PEOPLE ARE STEALING FROM OUR POCKETS AND OUR CHILDRENS POCKETS so do the decent thing are report them......www.welfare.ie.....no1 will know who it was

I agree completely the total bill for social welfare is 22 billion, larger that any other department.

I too know scores of people claiming dole while working on the side.

Lone parents living with a partner... there are people who own their own houses and would have their names on the deeds but for the purposes of social welfare and medical card applications put their parents addresses as their residence.

Its crazy and there is so much money that the state could save if they took it seriously.

Why not bring in tough penalties for welfare fraud. Catch a few and jail them for it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So, can I assume you'll all be on the phone Monday morning then or logged into boards moaning about it further?

parsi

If you know about fraud report it.

No point moaning about that you know x people doing it unless you actually do something about it yourself.

(you in this case means "one")

AlekSmart

how many girls do you know getting lone parent allowance while living with the father of the child or even a boyfriend AND getting rent allowance on top of it?

Lone parents living with a partner... there are people who own their own houses and would have their names on the deeds but for the purposes of social welfare and medical card applications put their parents addresses as their residence.

The problem with both scenarios as outlined above is the difficulty in PROVING any wrongdoing.

This is exascerbated by the claimants by now having the benefit if previous generations of Combi-Benefit reciepients who are always available to offer advice and guidance as to what to say or what is the best course of action..

Many ordinary folk simply don`t realize just how much Combi-Benefit claiming has become an industry in itself with a strong familial line in many small Irish Towns and Cities.

It`s not helped by the situation whereby the various agencies managing and paying out on these claims are NOT communicating with each other.

This is the REAL scandal as for these claims to succeed the claimants must make liars of themselves at the outset.

eg: one cannot be both a Parent,living alone AND yet be part of a two-person adult family unit seeking a Council House,the two are totally contradictory and yet are regularly set down on paper as the claims go in.

The Local Authorities do not cross reference with the HSE,nor the DFSA,instead each agency simply processes IT`S own claim with little real concern as to where the money is coming from...or going to !

In reality many of the DSFA`s CWO`s on the ground are well aware of the way in which they (we) are being fleeced,however the situation is by now so endemic that any real attempt to rein it in will most certainly cause public order difficulties.

So it just rolls along,by now the DSFA is like one gigantic bank...Too Big to Fail.....the only question being whether it is a National ASSET or not ????

sec1307

parsi wrote: »

If you know about fraud report it.

No point moaning about that you know x people doing it unless you actually do something about it yourself.

(you in this case means "one")

where in my comment did you read that i havent reported these people???
of course i have. their thiefs...and nothing more!
and as for moaning....i have a right to my opnion and the fact that your not outraged by this surprises me.....................maybe ur one of them

halkar

I think there was a small bounty for fraud reporters. Is that still in place?
OP, you should become the bounty hunter

murphaph

In the UK benefit fraud is endemic....and they actually actively try to combat it. I shudder to think how much money is fraudulently paid out in Ireland.

This sort of boll0cks stems from;
a) the thieving pr!cks themselves having no concern for the consequences of their actions.

b) the typical Irish attitude of "sure you'd do it yourself if you could get away with it"

c) the waste of space for a government and civil service (and their lethargic unions who oppose changes which might streamline fraud detection) who happily administer this free for all with TAXPAYERS' money (and then complain when their pay is cut as the country heads towards bankruptcy)

INSCOPE

I agree with some of the other posters. You should pick up the phone and report them.

mikemac

halkar wrote: »

I think there was a small bounty for fraud reporters. Is that still in place?

I saw it on Reeling in the Years.
Back in the 1980's you could get IR£50 for reporting others. I suppose that was a fair sum back then.
I wouldn't know, I was far too young :cool:

halkar wrote: »

OP, you should become the bounty hunter

You keep bad company OP.
But if they bring in a bounty, it'll be like a bankers bonus to you!
You'll make a tidy sum

parsi

sec1307 wrote: »

the fact that your not outraged by this surprises me.....................maybe ur one of them

The dogs on the street have known for ever that Welfare fraud exists just like tax fraud and property fraud and all other types of fraud.

I don't need the appearance of a TV programme or a Joe Duffy special to suddenly feel "outraged".

parsi

murphaph wrote: »

In the UK benefit fraud is endemic....and they actually actively try to combat it.

I saw an ad tonight and it mentioned that the UK prosecuted 56,000 benefit frauds last year. These I suppose were the ones for whom their local MPs "representations" failed.

On a per capita basis I would have guessed that we should be going for around the 5,000 mark for prosecutions.

Interestingly in 2003 Social Welfare discovered fraud in over 16,000 cases...

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/government/in_the_dail/departments/social_family_affairs/23_feb_05_definition_of_fraud

thebman

Yeah I don't know anybody commiting welfare fraud ATM.

Its all well and good saying the public servants should detect it but in some cases its very difficult as they fill in the form and you have data protection laws that are probably preventing them getting some information that would help them out.

Rev. BlueJeans

It galls me to the core, but I have an immediate family member who has been on the lang for years, working on the side while claiming benefits for a very large household.

I can do nothing about it, as the fallout would be severe (note the word immediate-no qualms about saying it here-as few know my RL name), but it is rather frustrating to say the least. Same individual promoted their line of work through some advertising and sporting sponsorship when times were good, so fair to say that a blind eye was and is being turned, at least in this instance. I gather that the welfare were aware of the situation too, and I have that on very good authority.

How many more cases like this are out there?

sold

Well the 18yo unmarried mothers should be sent to live with their families instead of being paid allowances and given housing. In Italy an unmarried mother would never get these benefits.

I know there are those who really need this benefit. but to be honest 70% to 80% of the "deserted" and unmarried mothers in Ireland are unmarried and "deserted" for a reason!. This only leads to a never generation of those who follow their mothers example.

cool_jerk

What slimeball would be happy to report welfare cheaters for a reward...

murphaph

parsi wrote: »

I saw an ad tonight and it mentioned that the UK prosecuted 56,000 benefit frauds last year. These I suppose were the ones for whom their local MPs "representations" failed.

On a per capita basis I would have guessed that we should be going for around the 5,000 mark for prosecutions.

Interestingly in 2003 Social Welfare discovered fraud in over 16,000 cases...

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/government/in_the_dail/departments/social_family_affairs/23_feb_05_definition_of_fraud

That wasn't 16,000 prosecutions of course! They reckoned that they'd detected 16,000 cases of fraud in Ireland, but no mention of numbers of succesful prosecutions. I wonder how many cases of fraud were detected in the UK before the 56,000 actually went to a prosecution...(I had a quick google but no figures jump out).


The UK uses a 3 tier approach: caution, administrative fine (30% of the benefits stolen) and prosecution. If they succesfully prosectued 56,000 thieves then there must have been a load more who weren't found guilty, who were fined within the system and kept from court and those who merely received a caution.

In the context the Irish figure seems low to me. I highly doubt we are doing as good a job of fraud detection as the UK and they aren't even doing that good a job of it relative to the scale of the problem.

It's a good case for the introduction of a national ID card and to start tying things to that so multiple identities etc. are much harder to create.

gcgirl

sold wrote: »

Well the 18yo unmarried mothers should be sent to live with their families instead of being paid allowances and given housing. In Italy an unmarried mother would never get these benefits.

I know there are those who really need this benefit. but to be honest 70% to 80% of the "deserted" and unmarried mothers in Ireland are unmarried and "deserted" for a reason!. This only leads to a never generation of those who follow their mothers example.

18 yr olds that would be a very small % of claimants??? My ex pays zero towards his kids and to be quite honest i rather cope on my own than seek a penny off the B'stard he is on his 4th child and as far as i can gather he is not working and claiming his interest relief and gets his dole while his other half works in some hotel !! thats what i call a scammer!

murphaph

cool_jerk wrote: »

What slimeball would be happy to report welfare cheaters for a reward...

The average tax paying slimeball?

parsi

murphaph wrote: »

That wasn't 16,000 prosecutions of course! They reckoned that they'd detected 16,000 cases of fraud in Ireland, but no mention of numbers of succesful prosecutions. I wonder how many cases of fraud were detected in the UK before the 56,000 actually went to a prosecution...(I had a quick google but no figures jump out).


The UK uses a 3 tier approach: caution, administrative fine (30% of the benefits stolen) and prosecution. If they succesfully prosectued 56,000 thieves then there must have been a load more who weren't found guilty, who were fined within the system and kept from court and those who merely received a caution.

In the context the Irish figure seems low to me. I highly doubt we are doing as good a job of fraud detection as the UK and they aren't even doing that good a job of it relative to the scale of the problem.

It's a good case for the introduction of a national ID card and to start tying things to that so multiple identities etc. are much harder to create.

Interesting points.

On a purely academic note I wonder though how many of the UK prosecutions were successful - was there such a significant difference that they decided to run with the larger figure.

murphaph

parsi wrote: »

Interesting points.

On a purely academic note I wonder though how many of the UK prosecutions were successful - was there such a significant difference that they decided to run with the larger figure.

Yeah you're probably right seeing as they require a good amount of evidence before going with either an administrative fine (the officer must be satisfied that they'd get a case to court if the suspect refused to accept the 'in house' fine) or a direct prosecution so presumably their conviction rate is actually quite high, one would hope. I still don't believe that ireland is doing as good a job of it. How many dedicated fraud investigation officers do we even have? They quote app. 3,000 in the UK ftr.

parsi

600 it would appear http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr110909.aspx

monkeypants

I'm all for dealing with this, but what do you do with them once you catch them, bar stopping the payments? You can fine them, which they probably won't be able to pay, or you can jail them at a cost of €1k+ per week. *

* This may not be an accurate figure, it's just the one that's always quoted.

dvpower

cool_jerk wrote: »

What slimeball would be happy to report welfare cheaters for a reward...

Odd comment. There's a perception amongst some people that social welfare fraudsters are living on social welfare benefits, which, of course is exactly what they are not doing. They are living off money stolen from the social.

Its a bit like saying that people who rob pensioners are living on a pension.

declan134

A lot of the problem is that "all politics is local" i.e. as soon as a payment is suspended, the first person on the phone is a councillor or TD who doesn't bother with the plebes at ground level and has the phone number of the secretary general or minister...Guess what happens then..

murphaph

monkeypants wrote: »

I'm all for dealing with this, but what do you do with them once you catch them, bar stopping the payments? You can fine them, which they probably won't be able to pay, or you can jail them at a cost of €1k+ per week. *

* This may not be an accurate figure, it's just the one that's always quoted.

It costs money to imprison anyone for any crime, but it has to be used to serve as a deterrant surely?! It costs the same 1k (or whatever) to imprison a murderer, but we suck it up and imprison them. If we didn't have an effective penalty well........

Parsi, I don't believe Minister Hannafin is being exactly transparent in what she says:

"We have over 600 staff working in areas related to control of fraud and abuse of the welfare system. Inspectors are calling to the homes of welfare recipients, people getting illness payments are being sent for independent medical assessments and we are collecting more earnings data from other agencies so that people can’t hide their income. We also frequently use mailshots to catch out people who have moved address or left the country."

My bold. In the UK they have 3,000 fraud investigators. I take this to be a dedicated role of seeking out fraud and so on, whereas working 'in an area related to fraud detection' could mean just about anyone who has reason to look at an application or applicant. It's hard to tell tbh.

gandalf

cool_jerk wrote: »

What slimeball would be happy to report welfare cheaters for a reward...

I'd report them for free. Why should I pay taxes to allow someone to rip the state off and create conditions where benefits are slashed that will effect those that do really need them.

Anyone that scams benefits are taking food from the mouths of people who need those benefits.

SamuelFox

murphaph wrote: »

It costs money to imprison anyone for any crime, but it has to be used to serve as a deterrant surely?! It costs the same 1k (or whatever) to imprison a murderer, but we suck it up and imprison them. If we didn't have an effective penalty well........

Parsi, I don't believe Minister Hannafin is being exactly transparent in what she says:

My bold. In the UK they have 3,000 fraud investigators. I take this to be a dedicated role of seeking out fraud and so on, whereas working 'in an area related to fraud detection' could mean just about anyone who has reason to look at an application or applicant. It's hard to tell tbh.

Its not just the claimants - according to my sister the Social Welfare Office Manager (or whatever he's called) in our small town will backdate claim forms for people he knows. He won't take a bribe, but sure if you were to offer him a few quid to take the wife for a meal.......

This is hearsay but I am going to pass it on, I'll keep you posted on what happens.

murphaph

SamuelFox wrote: »

Its not just the claimants - according to my sister the Social Welfare Office Manager (or whatever he's called) in our small town will backdate claim forms for people he knows. He won't take a bribe, but sure if you were to offer him a few quid to take the wife for a meal.......

This is hearsay but I am going to pass it on, I'll keep you posted on what happens.

Well, it would be naiive to believe that no public servants were corrupt, but I personally doubt it's a major problem in this area.

Rev. BlueJeans

Maybe not corrupt in many cases, but certainly a blind eye has been turned by our local equivalent for years.

Maybe he's acting out of charitable motives, maybe he's the antithesis of the man from Del Monte, in that he always says yes, but still...

Plenty of folk within Revenue out auditing small business atm, more so than ever before-the farmers tell a similiar story-why not use these surplus staff to tackle the issue of revenue fraud-instant returns while reform is teased out?

monkeypants

murphaph wrote: »

It costs money to imprison anyone for any crime, but it has to be used to serve as a deterrant surely?! It costs the same 1k (or whatever) to imprison a murderer, but we suck it up and imprison them. If we didn't have an effective penalty well........

Absolutely. I'm not saying that we shouldn't do it. And I agree that the language that Hanafin used was more ambiguous than necessary to give a real number. She probably doesn't know off the top of her head. Besides, if she really wants to save the taxpayer money, she could always give up her teaching job.

97i9y3941

monkeypants wrote: »

I'm all for dealing with this, but what do you do with them once you catch them, bar stopping the payments? You can fine them, which they probably won't be able to pay, or you can jail them at a cost of €1k+ per week. *

* This may not be an accurate figure, it's just the one that's always quoted.

it just go around again,instance its well known that big time criminals are entilted to it since they have "no income"..

KC JONES

Rev. BlueJeans wrote: »

It galls me to the core, but I have an immediate family member who has been on the lang for years, working on the side while claiming benefits for a very large household.

I can do nothing about it, as the fallout would be severe (note the word immediate-no qualms about saying it here-as few know my RL name), but it is rather frustrating to say the least. Same individual promoted their line of work through some advertising and sporting sponsorship when times were good, so fair to say that a blind eye was and is being turned, at least in this instance. I gather that the welfare were aware of the situation too, and I have that on very good authority.

How many more cases like this are out there?

you could report them anonymously

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

So. Tis Monday lunchtime. Plenty of time to have gotten through to what I'd well believe are some pretty jammed phonelines! Anyone care to tell us how it went?

Form an orderly queue, people....

SamuelFox

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

So. Tis Monday lunchtime. Plenty of time to have gotten through to what I'd well believe are some pretty jammed phonelines! Anyone care to tell us how it went?

Form an orderly queue, people....

I work nights, so the earliest I'll get to phone is Wednesday. Seems like your in a crimefighting mood, you want to do a few vigilante patrols to keep you active while you're waiting to see how we get on?

Rev. BlueJeans

KC JONES wrote: »

you could report them anonymously

I know that dude.

The fallout is in relation to other family members, not myself. I wouldn't have any qualms about telling them to their face that I had reported them, were that not the case, I feel so strongly about it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

SamuelFox wrote: »

I work nights, so the earliest I'll get to phone is Wednesday. Seems like your in a crimefighting mood, you want to do a few vigilante patrols to keep you active while you're waiting to see how we get on?

Yes, Kent, yes I do!

skearon

cool_jerk wrote: »

What slimeball would be happy to report welfare cheaters for a reward...

Translation: It's every law abiding citizen's duty to report the slimeballs who commit welfare fraud.

donkey balls

Question why was this issue not tackled during the so called good years when we had a very low unemployment rate. also i remember a couple of years ago they paid you directly into your bank account without having to sign on every week.

bigeasyeah

Did you report anyone?

danois

looks like the government is trying to do something about it

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

danman

gcgirl wrote: »

18 yr olds that would be a very small % of claimants??? My ex pays zero towards his kids and to be quite honest i rather cope on my own than seek a penny off the B'stard he is on his 4th child and as far as i can gather he is not working and claiming his interest relief and gets his dole while his other half works in some hotel !! thats what i call a scammer!

gcgirl, this isn't a personal attack, every situation is different.

I've often wondered how there are so many single mothers with no fathers on the scene.

When I was a young lad and free and single, I never left the house without a condom. Even when I eventually settled down with my now wife, I used a condom, simply because I didn't want a child at that stage. I knew I couldn't afford one then.

Are condoms so hard to find these days? When I was in my 20's it was a lot harder, but I still managed to get them.

As for fathers not paying their way, I don't give a ****e how much of a scumbag he is, If he has a child, he should pay for it. Why should I pay my tax so he doesn't have to pay for his 4 children?

I actually think this country needs an agency to chase fathers who do not pay their way, similar to in the UK.
We also need legislation to make it law for the fathers name to be on the birth cert. An application should go through the courts to keep a fathers name off the cert, only in exceptional circumstances. This works well in other countries.

We all know of families scamming the system.
A woman in her 30's that I know of, has 4 children by 4 men, she lives with her boyfriend in a lovely council house. She has never had a job in her life to pay her own way.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but why should she be entitled to live off my taxes, just because she made a lifestyle choice.

monkeypants

danois wrote: »

looks like the government is trying to do something about it

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/the-measures/accounts-to-be-scanned-in-welfare-fraud-crackdown-1973825.html

Will only work if you have a bank account. Just do what an ex-Minister for Finance did and just don't have one. Or if you do have a salary, get it paid into someone else's account each week/month. Cash is your friend.

The majority of rules only inconvenience people who obey the rules. Dedicated people get around the rules.

smokinp

Social welfare fraud is wrong fullstop..

The ones i would blame here are the government.. We had year after year when there was nearly full employment and that was the time to weed out the fraudsters..
Trying to do it now is typical of this current regime..
Blame the people on the street..
What about the clowns in the banks, financial reg etc that got us into this mess ?

As regards reporting people...
SNITCH...
Let the government find them..

P. Breathnach

smokinp wrote: »

Social welfare fraud is wrong fullstop..

...As regards reporting people...
SNITCH...
Let the government find them..

And how can the government do that?

RedPlanet

I know of a few people scamming like this:
They rent a 2 bed room apartment and have both bedrooms decorated in such a way that the inspector thinks they are both single with their own bedrooms. But in fact it is just a ruse. They are co-habiting and should be listed as such.
Now i could "report" them.. but so what?
It's my word against theirs, and besides someone from the dole or healthboard had called out to the residence and did their job and signed-off, right?
How could they prove that the people are actually cohabiting, hire a private investigator?

(nevermind that they are fully able-bodied and capable of actually working, if they bothered to get off their arses to look for a job)

smokinp

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And how can the government do that?

There are people employed for this..

Would save a lot of more money if they went after the fat cats avoiding tax..

What kind of a society do we want to end up living in?
One where people are rewarded for snitching on their neighbours?
Sounds like China to me...

gcgirl

danman wrote: »

gcgirl, this isn't a personal attack, every situation is different.

I've often wondered how there are so many single mothers with no fathers on the scene.

When I was a young lad and free and single, I never left the house without a condom. Even when I eventually settled down with my now wife, I used a condom, simply because I didn't want a child at that stage. I knew I couldn't afford one then.

Are condoms so hard to find these days? When I was in my 20's it was a lot harder, but I still managed to get them.

As for fathers not paying their way, I don't give a ****e how much of a scumbag he is, If he has a child, he should pay for it. Why should I pay my tax so he doesn't have to pay for his 4 children?

I actually think this country needs an agency to chase fathers who do not pay their way, similar to in the UK.
We also need legislation to make it law for the fathers name to be on the birth cert. An application should go through the courts to keep a fathers name off the cert, only in exceptional circumstances. This works well in other countries.

We all know of families scamming the system.
A woman in her 30's that I know of, has 4 children by 4 men, she lives with her boyfriend in a lovely council house. She has never had a job in her life to pay her own way.
I'm sorry to sound harsh, but why should she be entitled to live off my taxes, just because she made a lifestyle choice.

I do agree that some people just have no ambition in life just depend on the social to provide i know a few but then i know a few that work their asses off and are a example to all of us and to be honest for a lot of us its not as clean cut i myself are caring for 3 people in my family between old age /disabilities so i am fairly worked up between them all! stress lol !
But usually its a cycle just repeating itself from their parents and the fact they were never encouraged to go on and finish school in the first place!

Lemondrop kid

I know a guy who defrauded 100 million euro from what turned out to be the state coffers.
What was his name now, Fitz-something...

Anyway, lets go round up them bloody dole heads