public sector downing all tools indefinitely...is it a reality?

jon1981

how real is this?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/budget/news/budget-2010-cowen-to-hold-firm-as-unions-threaten-strikes-1971232.html

"It is open to us to name a day in February and say 'that's the day we're stopping and we won't be starting again until there is some resolution one way or another'," Mr O'Connor said.

will the government back down if this were to happen? Did the Government create some room for negogiation after the budget? i.e looking for 4billion in cuts but would negotiate down to 3billion if the above situation was to happen? It looks like the unions are willing to destroy the country to reverse the budget and with the gardai ballot about to take place... this is all extremely worrying!

DrumSteve

personally i dont think that would happen. the goverment would have the backing of a sizeabloe portion of the population and i do not think the strikes would be well received. plus in reality i believe the cuts could have been a lot worse.

neilthefunkeone

The unions will prob push it but i reckon the members, after just taking a paycut, dont want to lose anymore wages...

frman

Public Sector Workers have bills to pay like everyone else.

Any strike action will not last long at all. Especially once it finally sinks in that this is a battle that they can't possibly win.

Easy for JOC to talk tough when he wont have to go without his salary during any strike.


Back to work now, carry on.

hem

Wow, just think of all the money that would be saved. 50 million a day by previous estimates.

astrofool

Hopefully they'll take their twelve unpaid days off and save future generations some of the debt burden.

heavyballs

it's time the pub s/cs should cop on,look at their payers (the gov and us ps workers)as a company,they can't afford to pay your wages at the going rate.
in lots of private companys people are being called in,boss says we can't afford the wages at current rates,what can you do? accept it,get on with it,grow up,your not actually that hard done by
they should be sacking the goons and increasing productivity so that the lazy b's in the civil service in particular can no longer hide behind their hard working collegue's

Inspector Coptoor

I wouldnt be in favour of downing tools at all.
the idea of going on strike and my leaving cert students sitting at home really pisses me off.
It is time to get on with it.
i dont like what they've done but as long as this is the end of targeting us, it's time to move on and get the work done.

future_plans

To be fair, I think the bottom end were hard done by in that budget. That 5% cut could have been avoided and the balance regained through a minimal tax increase at the higher rate. It would not have adversely affected the economy. That 5% is ultimately money that would have been put straight back into the economy.

The higher salary cuts are justified in my opinion. I know plenty of PS workers (particularly Gardai) in this 30 - 70k bracket who have been away on holidays a few times already this year and bought new cars. Now, I've nothing against people going on hols or buying cars, but please do not have the gall to threaten strike because you're struggling.

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

I wouldnt be in favour of downing tools at all.
the idea of going on strike and my leaving cert students sitting at home really pisses me off.
It is time to get on with it.
i dont like what they've done but as long as this is the end of targeting us, it's time to move on and get the work done.

APPLAUSE!!!

Prenderb

astrofool wrote: »

Hopefully they'll take their twelve unpaid days off and save future generations some of the debt burden.

There is no 12 days unpaid leave scheme - that was not agreed to by the government.

--amadeus--

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

I wouldnt be in favour of downing tools at all.
the idea of going on strike and my leaving cert students sitting at home really pisses me off.
It is time to get on with it.
i dont like what they've done but as long as this is the end of targeting us, it's time to move on and get the work done.

Great sentiments and I hope that kind of common sense gets fed up to and understood by teh union leadership

astrofool

Prenderb wrote: »

There is no 12 days unpaid leave scheme - that was not agreed to by the government.

The point is, if they strike, is it not the same thing? If we can let them strike for 12 days, then we have the savings from the budget, and the savings they were going to agree to anyway.

Nothing says you're an indispensible member of the public service than being asked to take a two week holiday

Dirk Gently

I don't think public members have the resolve for a long strike tbh. It would be different if they were fighting for their jobs and it was all or nothing but in reality their jobs are safe. within a few days people will be filtering back into work. within a week and the majority will be demoralised, especially if the gov show no sign of movement or negotiation. Certainly when the mortgage repayments and loan repayments are due they'll scurry back to work. I know the unions have a big war chest built up but I doubt it's enough to sustain members for any length of time. The gov / media strategy of polarising public and private workers has been too effetive for any major show of solidarity. divide and rule has been all too easy. The public sector has very effectivly been demonised and made the focus of our economic woes.

The union will be hoping for a quick turnaround I reckon by shocking the government with as big a work stopage as they can achieve. The longer it goes on the more likely it will be that the unions will collapse though, moreso than the gov.

I'd say the gov are bracing themselves to ride it out untill it collapses. It will be messy, the country might efectivly shut down for a while but really the gov have them over the debt barrell. The major headache for the gov will be the Gardai role in all of this.

gandalf

Well hopefully the government call their bluff. Leave em strike even if they are out for a few weeks. Break the unions and then push through on efficiency , cull the dead wood and install proper modern management structures that actually turn the PS back into a service for the taxpayer.

RedPlanet

How to cut out the dead wood?
Could be it's own thread.

Sleepy

I really can't see the PS workers going on a general strike. Something tells me that public reaction to the last strike, the proposal for unpaid days and the budget will have filtered through to the vast majority of them.

Any vote for industrial action called by the likes of O' Connor would be doomed to failure and even if they were stupid enough to vote in favour of it, the government should be able to crush the strike pretty easily.

murphaph

future_plans wrote: »

To be fair, I think the bottom end were hard done by in that budget. That 5% cut could have been avoided and the balance regained through a minimal tax increase at the higher rate. It would not have adversely affected the economy. That 5% is ultimately money that would have been put straight back into the economy.

BUT it doesn't come out of the economy so it's not going straight back into the economy. It is being borrowed (indirectly) from Germany.

The 5% of all earnings was the best part of it tbh and will probably reduce the most borrowing of all the various percentages, not small money as people seem to believe, but he should have also targeted the low paid private sector workers and brought them into the tax net. Nobody should be able to work and pay no income tax on it.

johngalway

They've very little public support now I reckon, after their last antics. Union leaders don't seem to be living on the same planet as us little people at all. Let them strike all they want, paint the country in the worst light and make things worse, that would be their doing. There's how many unemployed now? Start training them up for the troublemakers jobs. I'm sure there are many collecting welfare would be happy to be doing PS/CS jobs even at less wages than now.

Call their bluff and break the Unions as said.

amacachi

February eh? Gives me time to write to my local FF TDs and GP members to let them know they'll not be getting votes from me if they back down on this. (Not that they were getting them anyway, but that's not the point.:pac:)

frman

In order for the Unions to be smashed, there has to be a strike.

I hope they do, and when workers have to go back to work having gained nothing, that will be the end of the unions as we know them.

Breaking the Unions is now such an important issue for this country.

gandalf

frman wrote: »

In order for the Unions to be smashed, there has to be a strike.

I hope they do, and when workers have to go back to work having gained nothing, that will be the end of the unions as we know them.

Breaking the Unions is now such an important issue for this country.

Cmon Jack "make my day"....

murphaph

I'd like to see the beards lead their members to the top of the hill (calling ballots) only to have to march back down again (lose the ballots) rather than the strikes going ahead, but if the members are stupid enough to vote for industrial action (in a basically bankrupt state living on borrowed money) then they need crushing once and for all.

I think most members will indeed look at O'Connor and Begg etc. on their big fat salaries and start to ask questions of them.....not before time.

joolsveer

johngalway wrote: »

They've very little public support now I reckon, after their last antics. ..................

Do you think that public support is important to public servants? There has been a sustained campaign against all workers in the public service and it seems to be continuing.

I am not a public servant but my wife is and she reckons that her salary will be down about 20% because of cuts already made and those yet to be made.

murphaph

joolsveer wrote: »

Do you think that public support is important to public servants? There has been a sustained campaign against all workers in the public service and it seems to be continuing.

I am not a public servant but my wife is and she reckons that her salary will be down about 20% because of cuts already made and those yet to be made.

Well, her employer (the state) is broke. Lucky her employer is a country and not a private company or she'd be on the dole with no redundancy right about now, eh?!

ParkRunner

Sorry to burst your bubble but your fellow workers will not be downing the tools. Industrial action will take the form of a sustained work to rule or the like.

dRNk SAnTA

joolsveer wrote: »

Do you think that public support is important to public servants? There has been a sustained campaign against all workers in the public service and it seems to be continuing.

I am not a public servant but my wife is and she reckons that her salary will be down about 20% because of cuts already made and those yet to be made.

The sustained campaign against public sector workers is based on the fact that cuts are either going to have to come from social welfare or from public sector pay. Considering the generous pay and conditions that public sector workers enoy, the decision is a no brainer.

You can't expect pay rises in times of inflation and then maintain your income in a time of such high deflation.

joolsveer

murphaph wrote: »

Well, her employer (the state) is broke. Lucky her employer is a country and not a private company or she'd be on the dole with no redundancy right about now, eh?!

Do you believe the politicians when they say the country is broke? In the Haughey era they lied through their teeth when they said the same thing. How do you account for the money that came in after the tax amnesties otherwise?

frman

EF wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble but your fellow workers will not be downing the tools. Industrial action will take the form of a sustained work to rule or the like.

The general public will notice no difference then.

ParkRunner

frman wrote: »

The general public will notice no difference then.

Funny man. It is not intended to impact the general public, we dont have an agenda to vilify the workers and unemployed of this country, it is the elected representatives it will be directed at.

jon1981

EF wrote: »

Funny man. It is not intended to impact the general public, we dont have an agenda to vilify the workers and unemployed of this country, it is the elected representatives it will be directed at.

explain work to rule... what duties would you not do?

Flex

EF wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble but your fellow workers will not be downing the tools. Industrial action will take the form of a sustained work to rule or the like.

The "work to rule" approach thats being spouted makes me sick, as does the whole "we coulda got reform if you didnt cut our pay, now we wont ahve another chance for 20 years because we're throwing a hissy fit". What other group of workers can anyone think of that would turn around after taking a paycut from a near bankrupt employer and smuggly say to them and the people who pay their wages to provide services for everyone "OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be". It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Surely if your employer was in such a dire financial position you would endeavour to work even harder and really try to make things more efficient and productive to try improve the situation??? God knows I would.

ParkRunner

jon1981 wrote: »

explain work to rule... what duties would you not do?

Something along the lines of refusing to prepare answers to parliamentary questions and ministerial representations.

cee_jay

frman wrote: »

The general public will notice no difference then.

If there is a work to rule, a lot of the general public will notice a difference unfortunately.
Waiting on your Jobseekers claim to be paid? The wait will be even longer now.
Want to claim taxback? You will be waiting.
Trying to call some department to get your query answered? You won't get an answer on the phone.
etc., etc., etc.
The people most hit by the 5% cut, the clerical officers in every department who before this weren't even taking home €400 a week, are the ones that do all the above.

jon1981

Flex wrote: »

"OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be".

this is the thing, its a pure throw your toys out of pram attitude... i tell you what there are 400 odd thousand people out there ready to step in do the job

ParkRunner

Flex wrote: »

The "work to rule" approach thats being spouted makes me sick, as does the whole "we coulda got reform if you didnt cut our pay, now we wont ahve another chance for 20 years because we're throwing a hissy fit". What other group of workers can anyone think of that would turn around after taking a paycut from a near bankrupt employer and smuggly say to them and the people who pay their wages to provide services for everyone "OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be". It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Surely if your employer was in such a dire financial position you would endeavour to work even harder and really try to make things more efficient and productive to try improve the situation??? God knows I would.

Bring on reform by all means, I would love to see them come in and make our jobs more efficient and productive. The government have produced report after report with possible reforms but they went on holidays and could have had a fairer budget by introducing these reforms during the year. Instead they have just cut our pay and left us with the same inefficiencies

quad_red

Flex wrote: »

The "work to rule" approach thats being spouted makes me sick, as does the whole "we coulda got reform if you didnt cut our pay, now we wont ahve another chance for 20 years because we're throwing a hissy fit". What other group of workers can anyone think of that would turn around after taking a paycut from a near bankrupt employer and smuggly say to them and the people who pay their wages to provide services for everyone "OK, so just because my employer is facing bankruptcy he gave me a paycut, so now Im going to be obtuse, and as inefficient and unproductive as I possibly can be". It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Surely if your employer was in such a dire financial position you would endeavour to work even harder and really try to make things more efficient and productive to try improve the situation??? God knows I would.

This hits the nail on the head for me.

Listening to Begg etc on the radio saying a chance has now passed to reform the public sector, to increase efficiency etc.

I thought that was bloody well supposed to be part of the Social Partnership process for the last fifteen years?

It's sickening. Absolutely sickening. A seemingly endless round of payouts that offered sweet f**k all value to the Irish taxpayer. That fed the inflationary cycle that we've all become a victim of.

frman

cAr0l wrote: »

If there is a work to rule, a lot of the general public will notice a difference unfortunately.
Waiting on your Jobseekers claim to be paid? The wait will be even longer now.
Want to claim taxback? You will be waiting.
Trying to call some department to get your query answered? You won't get an answer on the phone.
etc., etc., etc.
The people most hit by the 5% cut, the clerical officers in every department who before this weren't even taking home €400 a week, are the ones that do all the above.

If the staff aren't doing their jobs properly or effectively then it is time that they are replaced.

As I said it is time to smash the unions and reform the ps. A strong line has to be taken here.

Simply turning up and sitting at a desk not answering phones is not acceptable.

BrianD3

Strikes and other actions are a waste of time and effort, they hit services, reduce pay, piss people off and leave public servants even more open for vilification by the media.

Public servants should direct their anger at those who've been hammering them for the last year. Eg the media and ISME, the crowd who threatened to stop paying tax if public service pay cuts weren't "rammed" through.
http://www.isme.ie/stg/public/download.php?site=site3008&file=09336publicsector.doc

Now the pay has been cut so it looks like this bullying tactic has had an effect. Any business (there are 8000+ of them) that is known to be a member of ISME should be boycotted by public servants. Maybe ISME have forgotten that public servants are customers too.

cee_jay

frman wrote: »

If the staff aren't doing their jobs properly or effectively then it is time that they are replaced.

As I said it is time to smash the unions and reform the ps. A strong line has to be taken here.

Simply turning up and sitting at a desk not answering phones is not acceptable.

I was just explaining what a work to rule might mean to everyone in the country, in response to someone's comment that the public wouldn't notice any difference.

frman

BrianD3 wrote: »

Strikes and other actions are a waste of time and effort, they hit services, reduce pay, piss people off and leave public servants even more open for vilification by the media.

Public servants should direct their anger at those who've been hammering them for the last year. Eg the media and ISME, the crowd who threatened to stop paying tax if public service pay cuts weren't "rammed" through.
http://www.isme.ie/stg/public/download.php?site=site3008&file=09336publicsector.doc

Now the pay has been cut so it looks like this bullying tactic has had an effect. Any business (there are 8000+ of them) that is known to be a member of ISME should be boycotted by public servants. Maybe ISME have forgetten that public servants are customers too.

Public Servants should direct their anger at their colleagues who dont do a tap and simply give the whole public service a bad name.

gandalf

EF wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble but your fellow workers will not be downing the tools. Industrial action will take the form of a sustained work to rule or the like.

Well if work to rule means that people are not carrying out their jobs to the best of their abilities then they need to start firing people.

ParkRunner

gandalf wrote: »

Well if work to rule means that people are not carrying out their jobs to the best of their abilities then they need to start firing people.

Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

dRNk SAnTA

I think you can tell that public sector workers know they can't avoid these cuts by listening to their arguments against them.

In previous years they would have said "look at how much more people are getting paid in X country. Look at the benefits workers receive in Y country". But because they are better paid than everyone else, in this country and abroad, they instead say "don't cut my pay because I have a certain standard of living that I expect to maintain".

Consultants and GP's are also deserving of big pay cuts.

onedoubleo

gandalf wrote: »

Well if work to rule means that people are not carrying out their jobs to the best of their abilities then they need to start firing people.

I always thought that in a work to rule, the workers would just do exactly what is in their job description nothing more nothing less. So they couldnt be fired as they are still fullfilling the obligations they signed up to.
I could be wrong but that might be one of the facts I remembered from Junior Cert Business

quad_red

onedoubleo wrote: »

I always thought that in a work to rule, the workers would just do exactly what is in their job description nothing more nothing less. So they couldnt be fired as they are still fullfilling the obligations they signed up to.
I could be wrong but that might be one of the facts I remembered from Junior Cert Business

Worked in the public sector for almost two years when I left college. In an office in Dublin. One guy did no work - he just read the paper and made bets all day. I'm being serious here. He did NO work. Not one minute of work in a day beyond maybe answering the phone if everyone else was busy. And even then that would happen on the odd day.

When it came time for computer upgrades, they didn't give him one (cos he did no work). But he went beserk, said this was discriminatory etc. so they put a brand new dell with flatscreen on his desk. So he could look up the football and the horses all day.

In the accounts office three of staff (ladies in their fifties) had refused all upskilling and training so all they did was frank the mail in the morning and shuffle around a few papers. I can remember when it got really busy feeling really galled cos they were all earning 40K plus and I was on 21k per year.

This isn't hearsay or 'my friend has a friend who' anecdotes. I witnessed all of this. And all of these people were 100% secure in the fact that pretty much no matter what they did, they couldn't and wouldn't be fired.

So either I happened to wander into the worst setup in Ireland or this was/is indicative of the way things roll.

Rujib1

cAr0l wrote: »

If there is a work to rule, a lot of the general public will notice a difference unfortunately.
Waiting on your Jobseekers claim to be paid? The wait will be even longer now.
Want to claim taxback? You will be waiting.
Trying to call some department to get your query answered? You won't get an answer on the phone.
etc., etc., etc.
The people most hit by the 5% cut, the clerical officers in every department who before this weren't even taking home €400 a week, are the ones that do all the above.

You have just made a good case to privatise a whole raft of the public and civil service aparatus. The job would be done 4 times as efficiently, with probably less then half the number of employees, sick day syndrome would go out the window with a P45 stuck in it's ass.

whippet

EF wrote: »

Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

well going by most of the international reaction and media Lenihan is after rising in most's estimations.

Of course the Bearded ones and the CS / PS will say otherwise, Turkey's don't look for christmas dinner every week!!

Rujib1

EF wrote: »

Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

That's the thing. Cowan and Lenihan, can be very easily fired at every election. Public and civil service workers are lifers. Cant possibly get rid of the ones who don't give a rats ass and tarnish the rest of you.

gandalf

EF wrote: »

Start with Lenihan, Cowen et al

Oh we can wait until the next election to fire "Laurel and Hardy" let them sweat and work to try and resolve the mess they created for the next two years.

I wonder did Bertie send them a Chrissie Card as well

johngalway

joolsveer wrote: »

Do you think that public support is important to public servants? There has been a sustained campaign against all workers in the public service and it seems to be continuing.

I am not a public servant but my wife is and she reckons that her salary will be down about 20% because of cuts already made and those yet to be made.

I think public support is important to any Government. I think this particular Government see the deep hole they're in which is filled with brown smelly stuff. I think they see how most of the population who isn't PS/CS are sick to the back teeth of the Unions unrealistic whinging. I think the Government also see how the different levels of the CS/PS seem to be splitting, some are for strike, some are for getting on with it.

Negotiations in Union speak means give us what we want and we won't strike. We won't give you anything or do anything, we just won't strike.

The reality of today is the money isn't there. Any other thoughts are from fantasy land.

I'm sorry for your wife, but reality is I have lost more in the region of 70% of my income this year, through no fault of my own. Other people who don't work in pretty much "for life, pensionable" jobs are in similar and worse positions to your wife. Those people have one choice to make, take the paycut and keep the job, or take the dole.

There isn't the third option, this country is ****ed in case the PS/CS workers hadn't noticed? It's all pain for most of us for a few years. A lot of people, myself included are sick, genuinely sick of the double standard whinging by some PS/CS workers.

I heard a nurse wheeled out onto radio the last day. She started off by saying the proposed cut in her wages was her holiday money, and she'd be deprived of her holiday if it went ahead :rolleyes: (big friggin deal in all fairness). After being challenged a bit on that the money mysteriously turned into essential "what if" money for the plumber emergencies and such... Utterly self interested transparent nonsense.

Again I'll repeat my firsthand expierence of the proposed second day of strike in the motor tax office in Galway. One customer came in and asked the girl behind the counter "are ye out on Thursday", couldn't hear the reply. The customer went on to say "I hope we are, I could do with the day off". "God I hope no one heard me, that sounded so bad".

In all honesty, and I am being genuine and honest here. That kind of stuff has turned nearly all the people I know locally completely against anything Union related.

It doesn't mean people don't feel sorry for others losing money. But it seems some in the PS/CS seem to think they're the only ones getting hammered and that they should be regarded as a special case when they're no different to the rest of us little people.

Rant, strike, pontificate all they like, the money ain't there. Simple as.

suimhneas

course its not real you fool, when will it dawn on you that the government are using the indo as their mouth piece? speaking as a public servant on 31000 a year after 11 years service i bloody cannot afford to go on strike, we are not all in unions get a dose of cop on will you.