Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

corktina

"(dermo88, you forgot to mentiont that Turbotim lives in London and he was banning people from Ireland who criticised his beloved WRC)"


THAT is particularly shocking... to people like him can I PLEAD for them to smell the coffee...we are talking about NOT spending millions that we havent got here, we arent talking about some sort of preserved line to run spotter specials on.
I have a disused line at the back of my house, I'd dearly love to see trains running along there, but ,being realistic, I would NEVER support a move to re-open the line at the taxpayers expense.

purplepanda

dynamick wrote: »

Another way to look at it is this - every day Irish rail runs 5 trains each direction over the 58km ennis athenry line. And every day those trains carry a total of 166 passengers. Each train carries 16 passengers. The trains go more slowly and less frequently than the bus service which costs the state nothing.

And they closed the South Wexford Rosslare - Waterford route which has an inbuilt advatage over any bus transport because the Bus has to travel up to New Ross to cross the River Barrow upstream thus adding considerable delays in bus services compared to rail. :mad:

Five trains a day on the South Wexford with direct trains to Wexford Town would have have been more successful in passenger usage IMO particululary with connections to Dublin services.

So the South Wexford line is closed for losing a couple of million a year & this WRC is allowed to waste countless times more than that & continuing:rolleyes:

parsi

I think it's time for there to be an acceptance that the much-wished-for Ennis-Galway passenger service was re-instated but many years too late and by then the road network had improved immensely.

There's a similar muttering going on down here about reopening the West Cork lines - they're gone, the roads are better now, we all have cars and ffs the tourists won't be enough.

It's all very well wanting to be an enthusiast but let them play train operator with their own money.

westtip

parsi wrote: »

I think it's time for there to be an acceptance that the much-wished-for Ennis-Galway passenger service was re-instated but many years too late and by then the road network had improved immensely.

There's a similar muttering going on down here about reopening the West Cork lines - they're gone, the roads are better now, we all have cars and ffs the tourists won't be enough.

It's all very well wanting to be an enthusiast but let them play train operator with their own money.

Those west cork lines will bring in thousands - as greenways - magnificent opportunity for you guys down there to learn from Mayo county councils initiative with the GWG.

parsi

We've experience of it . The Cork - Blackrock - Passage line is a walkway and it's a great amenity for locals and very well-used. One of those gob****es who like to propsoe urban schemes suggested that it could be better used as a Cork LUAS...

westtip

parsi wrote: »

We've experience of it . The Cork - Blackrock - Passage line is a walkway and it's a great amenity for locals and very well-used. One of those gob****es who like to propsoe urban schemes suggested that it could be better used as a Cork LUAS...

You look at what Sustrans has done in the UK in urban areas, Greenways are not just about open lovely countryside but connectivity through the whole country - urban and rural.

corktina

tbh I dont give a monkeys about greenways, but I can see there is a far better economic case for these than for reinstating a long-time failed railway.

parsi

westtip wrote: »

You look at what Sustrans has done in the UK in urban areas, Greenways are not just about open lovely countryside but connectivity through the whole country - urban and rural.

I must have a gawk at that. Thanks.

dermo88

Lets join their facebook page. They cannot ban us all.....can they!!!!!!

I think its time to drag my evil alter ego, Sharia Lawless out of the closet for another run at lobbying.

DWCommuter

I look forward to upsetting Colman with the truth.

That is all.

dermo88

DWCommuter

I look forward to upsetting Colman with the truth.

That is all.

My interpretation of this is that, (DWCommuter) you are referring to a certain forthcoming book. In which case I am quite prepared to shut my mouth, leave them well alone, and let the Lawyers get involved if they have to.

The worst outcome is to compromise being in a stronger position through impatience. So for my part....the safest action is no action. It is inevitable that certain individuals WILL throw their toys and lego out of the pram - so to speak, sooner rather than later.

The battle has been simmering since 2004. They have lost, unfortunately they do not know it yet.

It would be fun to taunt them on facebook, but thats juvenile behaviour that reduces me to their level. But......by Christ, it sure is tempting to have a go at them.

Victor

dermo88 wrote: »

The above I shall remind posters, my fellow posters....in case you want to know is the "gentleman" who banned:

...

Victor

...

I'm not sure if I ever joined.

dermo88

Editing. I checked my records, and rather suspect that I have to apologise to Victor.....its a case of my wires being crossed and having mistaken identity.

Victor

parsi wrote: »

We've experience of it . The Cork - Blackrock - Passage line is a walkway and it's a great amenity for locals and very well-used. One of those gob****es who like to propsoe urban schemes suggested that it could be better used as a Cork LUAS...

There is a big difference between a 6km tramway to Mahon that could be used tens of thousands of times per day and a tramway to Tubbercurry that would be used tens of times per day.

dermo88 wrote: »

Editing. I checked my records, and rather suspect that I have to apologise to Victor.....its a case of my wires being crossed and having mistaken identity.

Not to worry. I think I might have tried to join the board, but thats years ago and a little fuzzy.

corktina

a LUAS to Mahon just because there used to be a railway line there is not a good reason for such a devlopment. If money were to be availble for a Cork LUAS, then there are serveral possible routes that offer more promise than the old CB&P Line....Ballincollig/CIT/UCH/UCC/City/Kent/Dunkettle P&R springs to mind which could incorporate the existing line to Midleton and Cobh...

waay off topic now,.......

but maybe not, as this demonstrates the clearer thinking of the "anti-WRC" lobby as opposed to the blinkered WoT plans. Would not a Cork LUAS have been better VFM than the Ennis to Athenry line? Discuss.

OurLadyofKnock

DWCommuter wrote: »

That is all.

You and I figured out years ago that the agenda was basically nothing to do with getting the line delivered soon (or at all) - rather it was a case of 25+ years of lobbying was their ideal tactic as this would be 25+ years of Goverment paid-for and sponsered seminars and other day long events attended almost exclusively by the paid day-off and full expenses Partnership/Benchmarking/IMF Eternal Slavery public sector parasites.

I can recall when a nasty wagon from the Western Development Board called demanding the payment for your attendence as the P11 rep at one of their Preiststock events and I told her "we signed nothing and we are paying her nothing" and hung up the phone. The sheer money-grubing greed of this entity was sickening considering they had at the time literally an ATM at the Department of Finance which never ran out for them.

People have often remarked that the individual behind the WRC have incredible "tanacity" in that they have been "lobbying" in one form or another since virtually the line closed. There is no tenactiy - it is a well funded lifestyle option which feeds egos and espense accounts. Rail transport is the excuse and it is not the driving force behind these movements.

Get on yer bike! We'll all meet up for a pint in Brennans in Tubbercurry afterwards.

westtip

corktina wrote: »

but maybe not, as this demonstrates the clearer thinking of the "anti-WRC" lobby as opposed to the blinkered WoT plans. Would not a Cork LUAS have been better VFM than the Ennis to Athenry line? Discuss.

Corky you don't need an MBA from Harvard to work it out, so not much discussion necessary.

However, thankfully, the days of those who shout loudest get money chucked at them for their vanity projects are gone, and this is really the core issue for WRC, the money for the rest of the WRC, phases 2 and 3 is not there - as I spelt out in my email to all councillors posted up yesterday, the game is well and truly up. It would be political suicide now for FG/Labour to fund phases 2 (Athenry Tuam) and 3 (Tuam/Clarmorris) the rest of the country would stand up and cry foul. In any event the IMF/Department of Finance would veto it. Believe me Leo Varadkas is not hanging his political future on the Western Rail Corridor. As for my personal campaign for the greenway, it is really quite hilarious to see WOT throw their toys out of the pram about the Collooney/Claremorris section FFS if phased 2 and 3 aren't going to happen in the next 20 years - then why hang onto somethign that is NEVER going to happen.

In some ways I feel a bit sorry for WOT, as they have no vision. Had they picked up on the greenway idea from day one, or least from May 2009 when Eamon O'Cuiv threw the idea out to them at one of their own conferences- and backed the northern greenway because it will preserve and protect the alignment for the rail lin to go back in place in 50 years time (reference Harcourt St line if you want the prime example of the need to preserve and protect alignments), and had they said and campaigned for a parallel greenway to be put in place on phases 2 and 3 now - to help tourism and assist in the delivery of the National Cycle Network - they would have shown a degree of maturity, and would have garnered a lot more strength and support; from both the public, the intelligentsia, and I believe from the Government, compromise is the most important attribute and skill to have in any political campaign.

A complete lack of flexibility in their arguments will be their undoing, in fact the events of last week and emails sent out from WOT have proven this.

By the way here is an interesting little snippet for you, I spoke with Eamon O'Cuiv after the speech he made in May 2009, (the one he suggested a greenway in) he was getting the cold shoulder from West on Track because of his suggestion, he had thrown the idea out as an "olive branch", because he said in reality that section of the line is never going to be built and it was such a waste to see the line not used for something useful - this was a private conversation and you only have my word for it. But West on Track could not see this - Eamon O'Cuiv had not given WOT a copy of his speech before the conference - and they were speechless after what he said. I spoke from the floor in the Q&A section of the conference and congratulated the Minister on "his departments vision" - I know sickening isn't it - his speech virtually verbatin took a paragraph of one of my letters to him. The WOT chairman on the platform was somewhat condescending, saying somthign like we are not here to talk about greenways - I pointed out the huge success this could be for tourism (I didn't even know about the Great Western Greenway plan then) in the west of Ireland - O'Cuiv interrupted the chair and said something along the lnes of - Well I do think its something that should be looked at. He was ignored and was not flavour of the month at that event - I can assure you.

In the WOT press release about that conference they failed to mention O'Cuivs idea; and subsequent reports in the Western Media only talked about what a great conference it was and how the whole WRC woudl be in place within a few years; WOT have been the masters of misleading information for years - forever tallking up the project as if it was a major priority for the Government. I was alarmed that one of the most creative and important ideas in the whole WRC debate had not been highlighted in the press - I wrote a lengthy letter to the Western People which was published and bought the whole thing out into public debate. WOT wanted to suppress what O'Cuiv had said to the days proceedings in Claremorris where the conference was being held - they wanted to push the whole idea quietly under the carpet - Why? because it so bloody eminently sensible common sense reasoning. They failed their own cause by not embracing the idea of a northern greenway and parallel greenway on phase 2 and 3. Had they done this - I honestly believe they may have taken a huge step towards realising phases 2 and 3, but no they havn't got the ability to grasp the power of compromise.

Now they are reduced to the desperate measures of attacking people like me - although not in public - no, the attacks are in the committee rooms of every western quango, they are trying to kill my ideas with a death of a thousand cuts. But brothers I am not one, I am many.

I'm spartacus.

Pete_Cavan

I cant find it now to quote (I think it was in the WOT email which westtip post which has now been removed by the mods) but there was a claim that an engineering survey carried out on the route in question found that the alignment could not accommodate both the train line and a green way, but...

Has an engineering survey been carried out to see if this route, which was built over one hundred years ago, is suitable for modern trains at all?

I am not familiar with the route at all but I would imagine it meanders through the countryside, avoiding geographical features which the engineers of the day could not overcome, while going out of its way to hit as many towns on the way as possible. If this is the case, it would mean the route is entirely inappropriate for a modern day passenger service, but ideal for a walkway and cycle route to link local communities and act as a tourist attraction.

corktina

it was indeed a very cheaply built line and would need a lot of work to re-lay to a modern standard...a new build really in all aspects except the right of way. which would have the same problem as the southern bit; bendy and indirect.

westtip

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I cant find it now to quote (I think it was in the WOT email which westtip post which has now been removed by the mods) but there was a claim that an engineering survey carried out on the route in question found that the alignment could not accommodate both the train line and a green way, but...

Has an engineering survey been carried out to see if this route, which was built over one hundred years ago, is suitable for modern trains at all?

I am not familiar with the route at all but I would imagine it meanders through the countryside, avoiding geographical features which the engineers of the day could not overcome, while going out of its way to hit as many towns on the way as possible. If this is the case, it would mean the route is entirely inappropriate for a modern day passenger service, but ideal for a walkway and cycle route to link local communities and act as a tourist attraction.

Pete I hadn't gone back and noticed the email from WOT to the councillors had had been deleted, hardly surprising, I shoudl have taken out the email addresses - I don't hold with the argument you can't post up an email from someone else the email was forwarded to me and therefore became an email to me but I am not going to argue about it - its not worth the headache anyway - re you specific questions - all you need to do is look at the original Mc Cann Report of 2005, the section from Claremorris to Collooney was singularly identified as having the most problematic engineering problems:

Extracts from the McCann report 2005 (this report formed the foundation of plans to restore
the Western Rail Corridor)

The line (WRC) can easily be divided into four distinct sections (see “3. Specific Recommendations” below). It is quite clear that some of these sections are more viable than others and economic and commercial logic would dictate that the process of line restoration should begin by restoring what is likely to be the most viable section first. This is without
prejudice to any other considerations that might have to be taken into account The WRC can be broadly divided into four basic sections of line*. Table 1 lists these sections, the distances involved, the capital costs and the averages costs per mile. This data is taken from the FaberMaunsell capital costs study.

Table 1
Section Distance Capital Cost Average Cost Per Mile
Ennis to Athenry 36 miles €74.7m €2.1m
Athenry to Tuam 15.5 miles €34.7m €2.2m
Tuam to Claremorris 17 miles €58.9m €3.5m
C/morris to Collooney 46.25 miles €197.4m €4.3m

It is clear that there are broad divergences in average capital costs per mile between the various sections and that a pattern can be detected: the further north the line goes the higher the average capital cost per mile. The comparison showing the widest divergence is that between Athenry-Ennis and Claremorris-Collooney where the average cost per mile of the
latter is more than twice that of the former 3
I understand that there are two main reasons why the cost of the Claremorris-Collooney section is very high. Firstly, when it was built in 1891-1892 the section was constructed as a light railway. If it were to be brought into the IE network the formation would have to be rebuilt to the national heavy rail standard. The second relates to the cost of necessary
alterations to level crossings, of which there are a total of 290 along the section, two of which alone would cost €24m to create grade separations.
In following through on my general recommendation, I am suggesting that the restoration of the WRC should take account of these relative costings.
End of extraction from the 2005 McCann report.

Really in essence it is the findings of this report which form the foundation of much of my arguments, at a total capital cost (2005 prices) 197 million for a branch line from Claremorris to Collooeny fraught with engineering problems would cost 28 million more than phases 1 2 and 3 combined - now also consider this the actual cost for phase one was 105 million compared with the 74.7 million originally forecast in the McCann report, so the numbers of the McCann report (2005 costings) even with a reduction in cost of capital projects would probably be about 30-40% more than shown in McCann - this is why I think WOT have got their strategy so wrong - they shoudl have given up on phase 4 years ago gracefully, instead they have diluted their arguments and lessened the chances of phases 2 and 3 happening.

corktina

im sure westtip will fwd the email to anyone who wants it and to anyone else he can think of...:D i guess one could PM him

westtip

corktina wrote: »

im sure westtip will fwd the email to anyone who wants it and to anyone else he can think of...:D i guess one could PM him

Indeed if anyone wants a copy just PM me. Re facebook a few people from here are already friends but if you want to join its simplu sligomayogreenwaycampaign

We got some great news today - in response to recent events both sligo/North Leitrim Fine Gael TDs have becom Friends. John Perry TD and tony Mcloughlin TD have joined the facebook campaign as friends, in truth I expect a few more councillors to join up soon and will urge all TDs in the west to do the same.

I guess they (west on Track) read this thread, well folks neither John nor Tony are hiding their freindships with Sligomayogreenwaycampaign in a way I owe a big thank to West on Track for stirring the hornets nest on this one. Well done lads you gave the greenway campaign some fantastic publicity over the last few days well done!

http://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001773703036 join up the facebook campaign at this link.

Jehuty42

Mayo Councillors opposed to WRC greenway.

shamwari

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I can recall when a nasty wagon from the Western Development Board called demanding the payment for your attendence as the P11 rep at one of their Preiststock events and I told her "we signed nothing and we are paying her nothing" and hung up the phone. The sheer money-grubing greed of this entity was sickening considering they had at the time literally an ATM at the Department of Finance which never ran out for them.

I don't think I would ever describe a woman in those sort of harsh terms, but equally so, I wouldn't have the neck to ring someone up and put the knuckles on them for a few quid like that either.

DWCommuter

shamwari wrote: »

I don't think I would ever describe a woman in those sort of harsh terms, but equally so, I wouldn't have the neck to ring someone up and put the knuckles on them for a few quid like that either.

Let me clarify this. I didn't make the trip with any intent of attending the conference in any particular capacity. I made the trip on the basis of establishing a better working relationship with WOT after all the the animosity. Meeting them face to face etc.That is what was discussed beforehand. I was looking forward to discussing how rail transport in general could be improved in the West of Ireland and how we might work together. However at the time WOT was more like a brand being managed by various bodies intent on creating razzamatazz and making a few quid to fund the gig. And the Gig was only the WRC. I left with a bad taste in my mouth, but it was the end of any public discordance between P11 and WOT. I tried, but quickly established that WOT don't actually give a hoot about rail transport anywhere except the WRC. I found that a little bit unfortunate considering all the lines that run to the West.

DWCommuter

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Mayo Councillors opposed to WRC greenway.

Councillor Patsy O’Brien, who is an Irish Rail employee, said: “ I couldn’t support the Greenway. Firstly there are areas of limited clearance on parts of the line and there is not enough room. We have a plan and we need to stick to that plan, we are fighting it all the way to make sure we get the rail route open to Claremorris. We need to follow through to Government, get it to Claremorris then to Knock Airport and from there to the North.”

Seriously lads, its like a sexually transmitted disease. Conflict of interest. And its not the first time this route has been subject to it. One West of Ireland IE manager, who looks after trains elsewhere is a big promoter of it. The whole thing is utterly disgusting and the people involved are all financially comfortable, while expecting the destitute state finances to fund it at the expense of something else.

Hungerford

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Mayo Councillors opposed to WRC greenway.

This is just surreal. I fail to see how the construction of a greenway could have any real impact on the potential reopening of the line. If anything, it would enhance the (extremely slim) prospects because it would prevent encroachment onto the alignment. It would also mean that some of the necessary clearance work is got out of the way.

In addition, the communities along the line would get an economic benefit from people using the trail and if the trail proved to be some form of monumental success, it might strength the case for its conversion back to a railway for the tourist traffic.

corktina

any limited clearances which may cause a problem in accomodating both a railway line and a cycle track would cost pennies to rectify when compared to the vast amount it would cost to re-instate this failed ex-railway line.

foggy_lad

Seriously they are like a railway KKK or Mafia! No pedestrians no dog walkers or horseback riders, no pedal cycles or motor cycles, no bloody foreign tourists(or Irish) especially those young backpackers in hoodies who only come to spend their money in our sleepy little communities! The only thing allowed on our little pet project will be intercity trains!

Long may they have it so easy they can turn away such rich pickings!

westtip

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Mayo Councillors opposed to WRC greenway.

If the best they can do is one article in the Mayo News they are struggling - this weeks Western People completely ignored last weeks little toy throwing tantrum from West on Track. I think I would rather stick to getting the personal endorsement from the Taoiseach. Makes a little more impressive reading. Plus getting senior FG people to back (including senior councillors in Mayo), the problem with this whole thing is that someone has come along with a well orchestrated campaign of making sure the public do see an alternative view, and surprise surprise the public prefer that view and they just cannot cope with the fact they have been backing the wrong horse for years.

Look folks lets just say one sentence. Leo Varadkar is not going to destroy his political career on the Western Rail corridor.