Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

serfboard

bk wrote: »

2) Put together a 30 year plan to set up high density housing and towns along the route and actually make that plan work by real planning enforcement.

I'd add to your plan to set up industrial areas along the lines as well. The WRC as is, and even a proposed line to Tuam could have made sense if the industrial areas of Galway City were zoned beside railway lines. (A bit like the fact that Louisa Bridge serves Intel, or Connolly serves the IFSC).

pigtown wrote: »

My question to you and others on the thread is what you think should be done about the existing WRC? Not many posts on here about the part if the line that already exists.

If you don't think there are, then I suggest you go back a few (thousand ) posts. I think there are two strands here:

1. The WRC as is, specifically Athenry->Ennis should never have been built. Ennis->Limerick was doing quite alright (and still is) and Athenry->Galway is on the Galway->Dublin line anyway. Extra commuter services to Athenry (serving Oranmore) could have been provided for relatively little money. Any further money spent on it is a waste and it should be closed.

2. Agrees with the first point but says it's built now so let's keep it open and make the best use of it, by IIRC,

A. installing a passing loop at Sixmilebridge
B. by not stopping at the smallest villages. (Specifically Ardrahan).
C. providing on-line booking
D. spending a few quid on marketing
E. by no means open a station at Crusheen, which will only further lengthen the journey.

bk

Excellent summary serfboard and also I fully agree with your idea of planning and building business parks along the route, all part of a well thought, integrated strategic plan. Which unfortunately was never done for the WRC.

I'm more in the camp of option 1. I just don't think option 2 will make a significant difference.

In fairness I suppose you could do option B to E today, give it 12 months more and see how it goes. If there is a marked improvement, then option A could be considered, if there isn't an improvement after 12 months then option 1 should be implemented. And IR can stop haemorrhaging money.

My fear is that the WRC will be kept open for political reasons (don't want be asking why 100 million was wasted on it), but instead IR will be forced to close other older branch lines, that actually carry more passengers then the WRC, in order to save the 3 million subsidy wasted on the WRC each year. Then maybe 10 years from now, the Athenry->Ennis section will be quietly closed too.

This is why the WRC is the worst thing that has ever happened to rail in Ireland in the last 30 years. The terrible decision to open this line in this form has jeopardised the profitability of IR and thus other parts of the rail network and will likely make it much more difficult to build other potential new lines (like in Cork) in future.

Sometimes I wonder if supporters of the WRC are actually anti-rail people in disguise. Supporting it knowing that it damages rails future in Ireland!!

I know that sounds paranoid, but some times when I read some of the things I do here, I just can't believe it.

eastwest

bk wrote: »

My fear is that the WRC will be kept open for political reasons (don't want be asking why 100 million was wasted on it), but instead IR will be forced to close other older branch lines, that actually carry more passengers then the WRC, in order to save the 3 million subsidy wasted on the WRC each year. Then maybe 10 years from now, the Athenry->Ennis section will be quietly closed too.

This is why the WRC is the worst thing that has ever happened to rail in Ireland in the last 30 years. The terrible decision to open this line in this form has jeopardised the profitability of IR and thus other parts of the rail network and will likely make it much more difficult to build other potential new lines (like in Cork) in future.

Sometimes I wonder if supporters of the WRC are actually anti-rail people in disguise. Supporting it knowing that it damages rails future in Ireland!!

I know that sounds paranoid, but some times when I read some of the things I do here, I just can't believe it.

I don't think that WOT et al intend to be anti rail, to be fair, but in fact that is the net result of their stance.I agree with your point that the WRC is not helping the case for rail. There are other closed lines like Mullingar - Athlone that will now never get investment because of the bad experience with the WRC, and that is a pity; that route could have a future given the population in both centres and the connectiity with the Dublin - Sligo line.The stance by the pro-rail lobby against tourism projects also mitigates against rail, from a point of view of a failure to protect closed lines from squatters. Cycle and walking routes at least keep these alignments in public ownership. The anti-tourism lobbyists encourage the routes to be lost to public ownership.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Trains will never beat bus transport in Ireland or indeed in England Wales or Scotland!

absolute rubbish, trains are of a higher quality in this country then any bus currently running the same routes, trains well beat bus transport in england all though i would agree some of the trains over there could be better, shutting down our railways so a few private bus operators can pick up the crums left from the table would be a very very bad decisian which thankfully i can't see any government doing it in the immediat to long term future

pigtown

corktina wrote: »

i beleive the Cork plan is still being progresssed with a huge housing area earmarked between Cork and Blarney alongside the Railway and the already dual carriageway N20 section.

It's to be a new town called Monard. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0612/1224317753674.html

serfboard wrote: »

If you don't think there are, then I suggest you go back a few (thousand ) posts. I think there are two strands here:

1. The WRC as is, specifically Athenry->Ennis should never have been built. Ennis->Limerick was doing quite alright (and still is) and Athenry->Galway is on the Galway->Dublin line anyway. Extra commuter services to Athenry (serving Oranmore) could have been provided for relatively little money. Any further money spent on it is a waste and it should be closed.

2. Agrees with the first point but says it's built now so let's keep it open and make the best use of it, by IIRC,

A. installing a passing loop at Sixmilebridge
B. by not stopping at the smallest villages. (Specifically Ardrahan).
C. providing on-line booking
D. spending a few quid on marketing
E. by no means open a station at Crusheen, which will only further lengthen the journey.

I would be of the 2nd camp though I'm not sure what else can be done to market it. Maybe make special offers easier to fond on the website.

I think someone should just bite the bullet and scrap the stations at the smaller villages. It should run; Limerick, Ennis, Athenry, Galway, and maybe Gort.

I'd also be of the opinion that a serious look at the existing lines that surround Limerick city should be assessed and a plan to open a DART style service at some point in the (distant) future be put in place. That's for a different thread though.

pigtown

eastwest wrote: »

I don't think that WOT et al intend to be anti rail, to be fair, but in fact that is the net result of their stance.I agree with your point that the WRC is not helping the case for rail. There are other closed lines like Mullingar - Athlone that will now never get investment because of the bad experience with the WRC, and that is a pity; that route could have a future given the population in both centres and the connectiity with the Dublin - Sligo line.The stance by the pro-rail lobby against tourism projects also mitigates against rail, from a point of view of a failure to protect closed lines from squatters. Cycle and walking routes at least keep these alignments in public ownership. The anti-tourism lobbyists encourage the routes to be lost to public ownership.

I wonder is that a fair comment though. If you or I can differentiate between a mistake and a potential success, surely the people in power can too? And I don't buy the whole 'incompetent management and planners' argument. They are educated people who were motivated to work in the sector in the first place so would surely have a desire to succeed in their field.

monument

foggy_lad wrote: »

Trains will never beat bus transport in Ireland or indeed in England Wales or Scotland!

That's just silly and weakens any other point you may have.

eastwest

pigtown wrote: »

I wonder is that a fair comment though. If you or I can differentiate between a mistake and a potential success, surely the people in power can too? And I don't buy the whole 'incompetent management and planners' argument. They are educated people who were motivated to work in the sector in the first place so would surely have a desire to succeed in their field.

The problem is, the decisions are not made by 'educated people' but by politicians, and decisions are made very often on the basis of what will affect the re-election of a minister.
If 'educated people' were making the decisions on the WRC, they would come out and say that a railway on that route is a ridiculous fantasy. Politicians in the west can't afford to tell it like it is though; they'd be slaughtered at the polls.
It all comes back to the parish pump.

foggy_lad

People have mentioned marketing of the Wrc but dont forget all last summer Irish rail practically gave tickets away and there was a good healthy rise in passenger numbers to what it should be all year round but once the price rose above the bus fare the numbers plummeted as the former bus passengers went back to their cheaper buses.

dowlingm

serfboard wrote: »

The WRC as is, and even a proposed line to Tuam could have made sense if the industrial areas of Galway City were zoned beside railway lines. (A bit like the fact that Louisa Bridge serves Intel, or Connolly serves the IFSC).

They managed to locate GMIT just far enough from the line to make commuting without a feeder service unappetizing, and as for Ballybrit... meanwhile low density housing blankets the north side of the line. Might have helped too if Dept of Defence had vacated Renmore Barracks in favour of a land use more suited to rail to a greenfield site somewhere around Carnmore.

This is the whole problem with the WIRC - the city/county councillor participants had the ability to make zoning decisions which would have created the conditions for success but seemed to think that a railway line exists in a vacuum and improvements would be granted by entitlement rather than demand.

EDIT: the comparison of the Mark 4 to the Mark 3 is surely in the most part down to the bogie sets. Once the Mark 4s exit warranty, a set of BT22s from scrapped Mark 3s should be mated to a Mark 4 set and see what happens.

Sponge Bob

dowlingm wrote: »

Once the Mark 4s exit warranty, a set of BT22s from scrapped Mark 3s should be mated to a Mark 4 set and see what happens.

Ya, or the BT4 bogie under the BREL Mk4 carriages, but I digress.

dowlingm wrote: »

the city/county councillor participants had the ability to make zoning decisions which would have created the conditions for success but seemed to think that a railway line exists in a vacuum

Which is why the Western Intercounty Railway Committee MUST be abolished. In their 36 years they have not made a single useful contribution to rail centric densities in any of the 7 counties ( inc Galway City and Clare) that they bleed expenses out of.

eastwest

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ya, or the BT4 bogie under the BREL Mk4 carriages, but I digress.



Which is why the Western Intercounty Railway Committee MUST be abolished. In their 36 years they have not made a single useful contribution to rail centric densities in any of the 7 counties ( inc Galway City and Clare) that they bleed expenses out of.

Amen to that!
They could at least have made an attempt to keep the route in public ownership.

westtip

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ya, or the BT4 bogie under the BREL Mk4 carriages, but I digress.



Which is why the Western Intercounty Railway Committee MUST be abolished. In their 36 years they have not made a single useful contribution to rail centric densities in any of the 7 counties ( inc Galway City and Clare) that they bleed expenses out of.

Problem is it has become one of those committees that "always happens" no one in any of the chambers is going to upset the expense gravy train by asking what does this committee do? what have they delivered in 36 years of existence? because that would upset the system. The county managers are in on the gravy train as well - so they will also never question it. They certainly haven't protected the alignment which is being further and further encroached upon. They talk about fantasy rail lines to Sligo but never mention their own incompetence in not protecting the alignment, (which basically means no rail line will ever run on this route, and perhaps not even a greenway), this will continue because they are never challenged, never asked an awkward question, they meet, do their minutes and report nothing is happening and carry on with the pretemce they represent the views of the people - The People don't even know they exist, don't know what they do and don't know how much this committee costs to achieve nothing. This is how local government works - its a club for those that are in it, and must not be challenged.

Talk to the hand

westtip wrote: »

Problem is it has become one of those committees that "always happens" no one in any of the chambers is going to upset the expense gravy train by asking what does this committee do? what have they delivered in 36 years of existence? because that would upset the system. The county managers are in on the gravy train as well - so they will also never question it. They certainly haven't protected the alignment which is being further and further encroached upon. They talk about fantasy rail lines to Sligo but never mention their own incompetence in not protecting the alignment, (which basically means no rail line will ever run on this route, and perhaps not even a greenway), this will continue because they are never challenged, never asked an awkward question, they meet, do their minutes and report nothing is happening and carry on with the pretemce they represent the views of the people - The People don't even know they exist, don't know what they do and don't know how much this committee costs to achieve nothing. This is how local government works - its a club for those that are in it, and must not be challenged.

Name names. Who is on the gravy train? Have you written or spoken to the Councillors in question? Have you attended council meetings and asked questions?

Use the obvious energy you have to make changes. Writing letters to the Irish Times or the Sligo Champion isn't enough in itself. You need to build up a grassroots campaign with you at the front of it asking the electorate to support you. It can be done. Ask Tom Gildea, who got himself elected to the Dail on a Television Deflector ticket.

More to the point, if you consider that local politics needs a good kick to reflect the opinions of you and those who agree with you, run for the council. If your ideas are attractive enough to the electorate, you'll get in.

what_traffic

Used the WRC there last Friday to see what numbers are like using it as was on my way down to Cork(Car was used from Gort onwards) Galway to Gort service. Dep Galway @ 17h35 arrive in Gort @ 18h36.(51mins) Single Fare: €12.70. (Buseireann single fare was €5.70 and timetabled takes 40 minutes) Counted 25 getting on @ Galway. 8 persons got off in Athenry and 5 people got on. Nobody got on/off train at Craughwell or in Ardrahan.
I was the only person to get off @ Gort and nobody got on. (only 1 Car was in the Car park)

Maybe there is a culture of using the train in Athenry but thought there would be far better numbers using train service in Gort from Galway City at a prime Commuter time of @ 17h35.

foggy_lad

what_traffic wrote: »

Used the WRC there last Friday to see what numbers are like using it as was on my way down to Cork(Car was used from Gort onwards) Galway to Gort service. Dep Galway @ 17h35 arrive in Gort @ 18h36.(51mins) Single Fare: €12.70. (Buseireann single fare was €5.70 and timetabled takes 40 minutes) Counted 25 getting on @ Galway. 8 persons got off in Athenry and 5 people got on. Nobody got on/off train at Craughwell or in Ardrahan.
I was the only person to get off @ Gort and nobody got on. (only 1 Car was in the Car park)

Maybe there is a culture of using the train in Athenry but thought there would be far better numbers using train service in Gort from Galway City at a prime Commuter time of @ 17h35.

Sadly the train does not meet the needs of most people in rural areas, and it never will. it works very well for commuting to/from urban centres such as Dublin and Cork but outside of these people prefer the flexibility they get from using the bus or their cars.

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

people prefer the flexibility they get from using the bus or their cars.

theirs very little flexibility from using the bus, the only mode of transport that is anyway decent in flexibility is the car

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

theirs very little flexibility from using the bus, the only mode of transport that is anyway decent in flexibility is the car

There is flexibility in there are many more services per day which allows people do shopping after work or stay longer when visiting etc and the times can be changed very easily to suit the needs of passengers.

Markcheese

monument wrote: »

That's just silly and weakens any other point you may have.

I don't know about the England Wales bit but I'd agree that rail in Ireland can't possibly beat a well organised coach service (which we don't have )

westtip

what_traffic wrote: »

Used the WRC there last Friday to see what numbers are like using it as was on my way down to Cork(Car was used from Gort onwards) Galway to Gort service. Dep Galway @ 17h35 arrive in Gort @ 18h36.(51mins) Single Fare: €12.70. (Buseireann single fare was €5.70 and timetabled takes 40 minutes) Counted 25 getting on @ Galway. 8 persons got off in Athenry and 5 people got on. Nobody got on/off train at Craughwell or in Ardrahan.
I was the only person to get off @ Gort and nobody got on. (only 1 Car was in the Car park)

Maybe there is a culture of using the train in Athenry but thought there would be far better numbers using train service in Gort from Galway City at a prime Commuter time of @ 17h35.

Your anecdotal evidence says it all - just after half five on a friday evening 25 people getting on an "intercity" service., when you left the train in Gort if my sums are right, there would have been 21 left on board heading for Limerick - and of course a few may have got off/on in Ennis. As you said peak time on a Friday night; whatever happened to the folk who wrote the ludicrous demand forecasts for this line? The published numbers and anecdotes like yours tell the full story. A complete and utter waste of money.

parsi

Yeah but, but, yeah, but, if there was a city on the route it would have been grand...

It has been a failure and it was always going to be so. My old lad was quoting the fares from Galway to UL by bus and he seemed to hear that it was €28 per week - no train could compete.

The WRC will always have its golden ticket folk using it to deliver their ipods to customers or relations in Limerick prison but other than that...

corktina

€106 million capital sunk for 22 people to commute out of Galway...(or 5 taxis). Isn't it about time that 1 car trains were reintroduced and used on this line? At least that would save some money.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

theirs very little flexibility from using the bus, the only mode of transport that is anyway decent in flexibility is the car

Ignoring cost, cars have the greatest flexibility as it brings you door to door.

With public transport, buses are more flexible then trains, as they are much cheaper to set up and run (and therefore often are more frequent) and can get closer to where people actually want to go.

That isn't to say rail doesn't have it place, it certainly does, as mass transit into and around large cities (No Galway, Limerick, Cork, aren't large cities). It has no place in rural transport. Far to inflexible.

end of the road

all railways bar the WRC have their place and are viable despite IE'S plodding along, the private bus lobbiests must be stopped at all costs from allowing our railways to be destroyed, they can run if they want but the lobbiest groups are a severe threat not only to railways but to state run public transport in general

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Ignoring cost, cars have the greatest flexibility as it brings you door to door.

With public transport, buses are more flexible then trains, as they are much cheaper to set up and run (and therefore often are more frequent) and can get closer to where people actually want to go.

That isn't to say rail doesn't have it place, it certainly does, as mass transit into and around large cities (No Galway, Limerick, Cork, aren't large cities). It has no place in rural transport. Far to inflexible.

Where would Dublin be without the Dart, buried in extra buses and drowned in diesel smog.

Jamie2k9

foggy_lad wrote: »

Where would Dublin be without the Dart, buried in extra buses and drowned in diesel smog.

Replace Dart with Luas. Carry's over 10 million more people than the Dart.

foggy_lad

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Replace Dart with Luas. Carry's over 10 million more people than the Dart.

Sounds like a good idea. Presumably maintenance costs would be lower and the staff costs would fall through the floor with no stations and drivers on a much lower salary.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

Where would Dublin be without the Dart, buried in extra buses and drowned in diesel smog.

Err, that is pretty much exactly what I said. Rail has it's place, mass transit in large cities like Dublin, for example Dart, Luas, Commuter Rail, etc.

I think we can all agree that these are vital forms of rail based public transport.

bk

end of the road wrote: »

all railways bar the WRC have their place and are viable despite IE'S plodding along, the private bus lobbiests must be stopped at all costs from allowing our railways to be destroyed, they can run if they want but the lobbiest groups are a severe threat not only to railways but to state run public transport in general

Erhm, I think you have a bit of a persecution complex there!! There isn't a private bus lobby out to destroy rail.

What is destroying rail in Ireland is the new motorways and Irish Rails inability to foresee this danger and prepare for it 10 years ago.

Private bus companies are simply taking advantage of the infrastructure available and it isn't there problem if rail can't compete.

As an enthusiastic user of public transport for many years, I have to say that the introduction of the private bus companies is the best thing to ever happen to public transport in the past 30 years.

Can you imagine that just two years ago you couldn't get public transport between the two largest cities in Ireland after 8pm and that you only options were a slow 4h 30m bus or the train at 3 hours and that cost over €70!!

Now as a regular commuter to Cork, I have an hourly service to gets me to Cork in just 3 hours for €18. Are you crazy? This is the best thing that has happened to pubic transport.

It is making public transport fast and affordable.

I have gone from heading home to Cork only once a month, to at least every two weeks due to it being much cheaper, more flexible and convenient now.

Hell it has even forced Irish Rail to improve, finally speeding up their service and sort of dropping prices.

Private bus companies are the best thing to happen to public transport in Ireland in a long time.

steamengine

end of the road wrote: »

all railways bar the WRC have their place and are viable despite IE'S plodding along, the private bus lobbiests must be stopped at all costs from allowing our railways to be destroyed, they can run if they want but the lobbiest groups are a severe threat not only to railways but to state run public transport in general

+1.......and there is no point in them denying their lobby / whingefest here. They can take all the cheap bus trips they want, but then advocating InterCity services are no longer necessary is really off the wall and in fact irresponsible. One big freeze like two years ago and mark my words - they will be seen piling back on the trains. Some of us like the added comfort of trains - after all two or three times a 'peanuts' fare is still good value !