Wasteful Dublin Transport Spending (Tram Project cost €96m a mile)

jahalpin

KevR wrote: »

M50 is another example of wasteful transport spending.

How much less would it have cost overall if they built it properly the first time around (with the extra lanes and free-flow junctions)? The upgrade is costing €1 Billion and that's with no extra land acquisition costs. Not to mention it will now permanently have a 100kmh speed limit instead of 120kmh. Also, the disruption during the upgrade is really annoying.

And then there's the whole issue of letting a private company have the toll plaza and then buying it back off them.

When the M50 was designed and built, the country couldn't afford to build a bigger road. It's only in the last few years that we had the money to spend on bigger roads etc

National Toll Roads paid for the Westlink bridge to be built and got their investment back from the tolls that were collected from the users of the bridge. They also built the second bridge due to the success of the first one.

jahalpin

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where did I ever advocate that?? LINKS or STFU time SeanW

It is not me fault that the Dubs..the RPA is a Dublin quango only..... are incapable of managing the procurement of infrastructure in a cost efficient manner. I never even mentioned the Beckett Bridge at €60m although the actual bridge cost less than half that including delivery from Holland

The 35 mile long Athenry - Ennis restoration cost only slightly more than sub one mile of Dublin tramway did.

The Kildare four track project cost €50m a mile with land acquisition costs, new track bed , lot of big bridges and 4 or 5 hefty stations included.

You may note that I did not compare the mickey mouse tram project with that other project as it does not compare despite costing nearly TWICE as much.

You can't really compare the cost of developing a large, high-density commuter light-rail system in the only MAJOR city in the country to a second-rate Victorian rail-line (Ennis - Athenry) which will never even break even.

The exceptionally low population densities outside of Dublin make rail very un-economical to build and maintain.

You also seem to have an unhealthly fasination with building large stations. The Luas is a light-rail system, light-rail systems use smaller "bus-stop" type stations while travelling through the centres of cities. Most of the stops outside of the main area (Connolly - Heuston) have heavy-rail type stations. Also as the green-line follows the route of an old heavy-rail alignment, most of its stops are proper stations as well.

Art(h)ur

jahalpin wrote: »

The Luas is a light-rail system, light-rail systems use smaller "bus-stop" type stations while travelling through the centres of cities.

And that's exactly the point - small stops were put up at a cost of heavy-rail stations. You pay for big and get small - where's the value?
As was said before - regardless of zillions of passengers using this line in future, the cost was over-blown by a mile (the very same mile that the line covers) or more.

Hungerford

Sponge Bob wrote: »

€96m for something with no stations...in effect.....is absolutely outrageous.

Erm... there are four stops on the extension. Unless the RPA are flinging passengers out of moving Luas trams. And the stops would be pretty typical of French tram stops too.

Sponge Bob

Hungerford wrote: »

Erm... there are four stops on the
extension. Unless the RPA are flinging passengers out of moving Luas trams. And the stops would be pretty typical of French tram stops too.

You did not read the links Hungerford

The Rennes system is more like the DLR in London for example whereas the Luas stops are basically elongated BUS stop and not a STREET tram like the Luas in Docklands.

In fact the Rennes system is closer to the proposed Metro North than to a Luas.

Let me reiterate, one is a mickey mouse TRAMWAY costing €96m a mile while the other is an UNDERGROUND or else an ELEVATED Light Rail solution that cost less per Mile to build than the mickey mouse tramway did.


Compare and contrast

1. Luas Stops



2. Rennes Metro Underground Station Gallery Here

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Rennes_Metro

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8H12JEtUYEk

NedNew

Could we compare in cost per kilometre not per mile since we don't use miles any more and any international comparison (generally) is always in kilometres.

Saying it costs €96 million per mile is almost meaningless - better would be €60 million per kilometre.

noelfirl

I can't really see the point here at all. With regards to your first post comparing WRC to Luas to Midleton line, people have already pointed out the different cost to benefits in terms of what each delivers.

You've pointed to the spectacular Metrosur... people have already pointed out the different nature of costs in Spain, in terms of acquisition, labour and construction. To just point to a big underground station (or equivalent) and say "they did this cheaper, why cant we do the same" seems to be to be a very basic and dare I say it tabloidesque type argument that doesn't really address any of the differentials between the Spanish and Irish projects.

€90m does indeed seem at first glance extravagant, but I'm not an civil or transport engineer, so I don't feel like I'm in any position to really say whether or not it's too expensive, which I'd imagine is the same position most people on this forum are in.

Furthermore, I don't imagine that when the Citywest Luas bill comes in in a couple of years time it will suddenly have dipped down due to a few people getting heated over the cost of the Docklands extension. It's not like I imagine all the engineers, contractors et al. are suddenly going to realise one day, "jaysus lads, look at these Spanish plans, if we do this this and this like they did we'll cut the cost in half!!"

Whether thats down to corruption, poor planning, more expensive land acquisition or miscellaneous, I don't know, but what does get me is after anything transport related is completed in this country, we as usual go in to this self-depreciating spiral of "God, what a waste of money". I don't think that the Docklands extension is something spectacular, and indeed it is abhorrent to see politicians bandwagon jumping about the progressive "can-do" attitude, but I do think it will have value over time as a part of a larger transport strategy, and the cost will ultimately be recouped, be it 10 or 20 years down the line.

donvito99

I'm just happy to have the Luas TBH.

MERRY CHRISTMAS !

SeanW

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Where did I ever advocate that?? LINKS or STFU time SeanW

Your first post seemed to suggest that the Ennis Athenry line was great value for money because 35 miles of it

Sponge Bob wrote:

cost only slightly more than sub one mile of Dublin tramway did.

If I read that wrong (and I amy have as you qualified your stance in later posts) I apologise, but you must accept responsibility for a vague OP that gave rise to such misapprehensions.

The Kildare four track project cost €50m a mile with land acquisition costs, new track bed , lot of big bridges and 4 or 5 hefty stations included.

You may note that I did not compare the mickey mouse tram project with that other project as it does not compare despite costing nearly TWICE as much.

Well why not? It is of course partly irrelevant (heavy rail vs light rail), but the business case has from the start been comparable, i.e. it's being built because people will use it. Lots of people. Unlike just about any portion of the WRC.

dowlingm

Didn't the Connolly ramp account of 30million out of the 90?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=134109
It was a very bad mistake but it's a pretty exceptional item.

According to this European Investment Bank press release, the Rennes Metro has a capacity of 5,000ppdph. Bear in mind the date and then index for inflation since then.

Metro North initial capacity (PDF) will be 10k ppdph initial capacity, ultimate capacity 20k ppdph over 30 year horizon.

Peak capacity on LUAS Red is 8266ppdph based on 4.5min frequency (13.33 tpdph) and capacity of 310 persons - but this only applies between Busaras and Heuston. Between Point and Tallaght @ 6.5min the capacity is 5723ppdph.

Might I remind people that we do not know for sure that the Ennis-Athenry rail extension will not pay its way? Also, as a regular LUAS user, I am happy with the cost, as the return was worth the investment.

Sponge Bob

SeanW wrote: »

Your first post seemed to suggest that the Ennis Athenry line was great value for money because 35 miles of itIf I read that wrong (and I amy have as you qualified your stance in later posts) I apologise, but you must accept responsibility for a vague OP that gave rise to such misapprehensions.

Ah that was not the problem at all. This blatant lie of yours was the problem. I selectively bolded it in quoting you back to you.

If you look at it from your perspective, we should build railways out the back of Mayo, Dingle, New Ross and god knows where else as guided by an issue of Johnsons Railway Gazette from the 1800s, and forget about building Metros and the Interconnector in Dublin or new Luas lines anywhere, because they "cost too much."

I want you to unreservedly withdraw this. It is a blatant lie, no more and no less.

howiya

Perhaps you should move to Madrid or Rennes Spongebob...

Hungerford

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The Rennes system is more like the DLR in London for example whereas the Luas stops are basically elongated BUS stop and not a STREET tram like the Luas in Docklands.

In that case, the comparison isn't valid because they are different technologies.

I also suspect that the Rennes system probably had its choice of alignments whereas the Luas one was badly limited because you can't demolish the IFSC.

Calina

howiya wrote: »

Perhaps you should move to Madrid or Rennes Spongebob...

uhem, I consider posts of this nature to be unconstructive. Most people with an interest in this country look at best practice elsewhere and see how it can applied here to the benefit of people in this country rather than shipping off to other places because we'll never do anything properly here.

Sponge Bob

Hungerford wrote: »

In that case, the comparison isn't valid because they are different technologies.

The comparison is entirely fair BECAUSE they are different technologies.

The Rennes system is constrained by platform length and doubling the platform length form the current 26m and doubling the number of train sets and pairing them will take its capacity to 10000 pphpd....where MN will start.

The DLR has longer platforms, that is mainly it. There is no other significant difference between most DLR stations and the Rennes system apart from maybe the large Canary Wharf station and average platform lengths and platform lengths at busy stations.

They have allowed for this in Rennes , they ONLY need to build platforms and buy trains to double the capacity. The rest of the system needs no upgrade whatsoever.

The Luas is a 5000 pphpd and that is that. It cannot really be upgraded to exceed that .

Metrosur platforms are 5 times longer or something .

The fact is that the vastly superior UNDERGOUND systems in Rennes and south Madrid cost less per km / per mile than the low capacity street tram with virtually no station construction in the Dublin Docklands.

€96m a mile ( or €60m a km) is an OUTRAGEOUS amount to spend on a mickey mouse street tram.

Chorcai

€96m a mile ( or €60m a km) is an OUTRAGEOUS amount to spend on a mickey mouse street tram.

It's quite disturbing that it cost that amount, did anyone not notice (or want to!) that it was going to cost that much per mile/km !

Rip off Ireland, the goverment said they can't afford to do XYZ but yet they could fork out 96m PER mile back in the those days.

What should it have cost ? How long before its payed off ?

Sponge Bob

should have cost €20m-€30m for a quality job if no rolling stock was bought, if rolling stock was required then add that to the €20m-€30m

The interest payments alone on that section will be €5m a year, it might be paid off in 100 years ...all going well

Well, I wouldn't call it a mickey mouse tram, i relied on it to get to IT Tallaght for 2 years (however the debacle that was the Mad-sorry-Red Cow construction site-thank God they've finished-was a damned disgrace). Similar was said about DART once.

Just thought of a saying i've heard from a firefighter. "better to be looking at it than looking for it"

noelfirl

Sponge Bob wrote: »

should have cost €20m-€30m for a quality job if no rolling stock was bought, if rolling stock was required then add that to the €20m-€30m

I'd like you to justify your costings please.

Sponge Bob

A mile of greenfield Motorway costs a lot less than €10m excluding land acquisition costs.

For exampel the Ennis Gort Motorway under construction now cost €92m for 22km as you can see here. The tender was submitted in 2008 ( maybe prepared in 2007).

That is €4.2m a KM and €6.75m a MILE so how does that sort of cost per mile turn into €96m in Dublin for a narrower cross section and again no land acquisition.

Yes services need to be relocated but the per mile trackway cost broadly compares to a wider motorway.

dereko1969

this is a totally pointless thread
first you're comparing light rail in an urban environment with the re-opening of heavy rail lines in rural environment
then you compare to french and spanish underground
and now finally you're comparing it to roads!
apples, oranges, and finally bananas!

Hungerford

Just a couple of points:

It appears that the Rennes Metro wasn't quite the bargain you claim it is - the city is planning on spending €1.2 billion on upgrading the existing infrastructure to accomodate higher capacity. Seems that some corners may have been cut. :eek:

The planned second route will cost €1 billion for around 7.9 miles worth of track - that works out at €126.7 million.

As for Metro Sur, it isn't in Madrid but is a low-capacity system which links five suburban towns and one small village.

Sponge Bob

Toulouse Metro Line B

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_Metro

15km for €968m all UNDERGROUND finished 2007. and using light rail not trams I am not sure if the trains were included in that but all stations and tunnels were.

By the way Toulouse Metro Line E will use the same trams as Dublin Luas , all overground, and will be €250m for 11kms of Tramway ...again not sure if this inludes trams but if not then add €66m for a cost of slightly UNDER €30m a km or less than €48m a mile.

Angers tramway using ground pickup in parts is more expensive to build and the trams are more expensive ( but are otherwise the same as Dublin)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angers_tramway

Cost €300m civils and €50m for the trams. = €350m for 7.5miles = €47m a mile and a big depot on the outskirts etc.

dowlingm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A mile of greenfield Motorway costs a lot less than €10m excluding land acquisition costs. For exampel the Ennis Gort Motorway under construction now cost €92m for 22km

Here you go, off on another tangent. How about the cost for 5280ft of runway?

Sponge Bob

Angers is directly comparable as is the Toulouse Line E , they will all run Citadis trams like the Luas. The other projects are a better build quality as well as underground...and still cheaper than the Docklands Luas was

As to your runway , it is to land what , cessnas or jumbos ??

DWCommuter

We know these things can be built cheaper in other countries.

We know why they can be built cheaper in other countries.

We know how inflated our build costs were.

We know why those build costs were so inflated.

Sponge, your entire argument/point is based on issues that the people of this nation have already identified. We paid staggering figures to build ANYTHING in this country during the so called boom times.

A conservatory costing 15 grand in 2006 is now priced at 9,500!

This whole point of yours was mentioned, discussed, debated and concluded years ago in many arenas. It applied to costs from a dinner for two to brussels sprots. You are not wrong, but you havent stumbled upon some new financial anomaly. So please forgive me for finding this thread tiresome. The important thing now is to ensure that given the economic collapse and reduction in wages/costs, that when or rather if anything new is built, that it isn't at a rediculously inflated price.

dermo88

I'll agree on that DW Commuter. Theres another factor, its the psychological value of money. For years, we treated the Euro as if it was 2 for 1 to the old Pound. The current recession is bringing it much closer to parity, in both psychological and real terms also. Thats besides the point, but more or less goes as follows:

When I questioned why things cost twice as much in Ireland in 2004, I was told it was because "We are smarter and we are worth it". I was called stingy for saying that the prices are madness. This came from thick people, not family, just some acquaintances.

When I questioned those prices in 2007, I was told, "It is expensive, but we manage"

When I question them in 2012, I will be told, "It was bad before, but at least prices are back to sane levels now. We don't earn as much as before, but our money now goes further"

Now back on topic. I do find the idea that such a small extension costs €96 Million a mile, or €60 Million per kilometer a bit strange. Fair enough, so I have a Double track electrified tramway. Thats 5 Metres tall, 10 Metres wide, and 1000 Metres long. So lets see, I get 50,000 Cubic Metres of developed transport system for € 60 Million. €1200 per cubic Meter.

Am I oversimplifying matters. In my mind, something like this should be readily available and built for €25 Million-€30 Million. Something does not add up, and to be quite honest, I'd like some answers to it. While it is a good project, I do consider that the original two lines of Luas cost €746 Million. I don't call it a wasteful project, but I do call it wasteful spending.

Hungerford

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Angers is directly comparable as is the Toulouse Line E , they will all run Citadis trams like the Luas.

Both systems, however, have a capacity which is a fraction of that of the Luas. The Luas has c.90,000 passengers per day - Line E is only designed to handle 30,000 per day and Angers will handle 35,000 per day.