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How many self-employed are making less than minimum wage / dole ?

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    #32
    Slainte_sf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Slainte_sf


    I'm 34, self-employed, living at home off my parents and not entitled to social welfare. Were I living in the USA where there are no handouts I would accept my lot . But it is very difficult to see so many others working the system in Ireland and not feel penalised for showing initiative.

    Ireland really needs to loose the attitude that entrepeneurs are all fat cats evading tax. We need motivated individuals who can think outside the box and create some enterprise.


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    #33
    PLIIM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭PLIIM


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Do you not get the state pension if you don't make the employer's contribution?

    It would be means tested. And you dont want that.


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    #34
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    PLIIM wrote: »
    It would be means tested. And you dont want that.
    Your talking about the non contributory pension, means tested as follows:
    • Cash income (including, income from work)
    • Value of capital (for example, savings, investments, cash on hand and property but not your own home)
    • Income from property personally used
    Doesn't sound too bad. For self employed people however, the mandatory S class contributions do qualify as contributions towards the state pension.
    Number of paid contributions

    If you reached pension age before April 6 2002, you must have 156 qualifying paid contributions (a total of 3 years but they do not have to be consecutive). This means that you must have actually paid full-rate contributions (that is, full stamp prior to 1979 and Class A,E,F,G,H,N and S since then.)

    If you reach pension age on or after 6th April 2002, you will need to have 260 paid contributions (effectively 5 years contributions but they need not be consecutive). However, if you were a voluntary contributor on or before April 6 1997, you need only have 156 paid contributions if you have a yearly average of at least 20 contributions.

    If you reach pension age on or after April 6 2012, you will need to have 520 paid contributions (10 years paid contributions). In this case, not more than 260 of the 520 contributions may be voluntary contributions. However, if you were a voluntary contributor on or before April 6 1997 and you have a yearly average of 10 contributions, you may meet the requirement if you have a total of 520 contributions, but only 156 need to be compulsory paid contributions.


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    #35
    PLIIM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭PLIIM


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Your talking about the non contributory pension, means tested as follows:
    • Cash income (including, income from work)
    • Value of capital (for example, savings, investments, cash on hand and property but not your own home)
    • Income from property personally used
    Doesn't sound too bad. For self employed people however, the mandatory S class contributions do qualify as contributions towards the state pension.

    As far as i know if you provide for your own pension and are on S class your own oension will count towards the means test. Compare that to normal contributers who get the state pension + their own pension regardless. Thats about €1000 a month you would miss out on.


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    #36
    t63m
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 119 ✭✭t63m


    Slainte_sf wrote: »
    I'm 34, self-employed, living at home off my parents and not entitled to social welfare. Were I living in the USA where there are no handouts I would accept my lot . But it is very difficult to see so many others working the system in Ireland and not feel penalised for showing initiative.

    Ireland really needs to loose the attitude that entrepeneurs are all fat cats evading tax. We need motivated individuals who can think outside the box and create some enterprise.
    Well said!


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    #37
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Does anyone know if someone self employed started paying class A PRSI, how long would it be before they were entitled to Jobseeker's Benefit ?

    Its the same rules as for illness benefit- aka:

    You must have at least 104 weeks Class A PRSI contributions paid since you first started work,

    and

    39 weeks PRSI contributions paid or credited in the relevant tax year (13 of these must be paid contributions),

    or

    26 weeks Class A PRSI contributions paid in the relevant tax year and 26 weeks Class A PRSI contributions paid in the tax year immediately before the relevant tax year.

    Any work in other EU countries (including contract work) can count towards qualifying stamps, if the relevant deductions were made (Witholding tax does not count).

    S.

    Edit: The relevant tax year runs two years behind the current tax year- so for 2010 its 2008, for 2009 its 2007 etc......


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    #38
    alrightcuz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 113 ✭✭alrightcuz


    ive been unemployed a while now and have been trying to set up my own business ,
    i was in the local enterprise board and partnership offices there in such demand because so many people are starting /opening there own business, they took my business plan and said they can make an appointment for late Jan to mid February. from my view things must be getting better otherwise wouldn't people stay on the dole.


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    #39
    matt70iu
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭matt70iu


    Rmmb wrote: »
    Well done tough times on surviving, you have said it all because i am now a broken person, once driven with ambition not desolate and destitute. Tazz i feel for you, i have tried everything in the last 6 months to turn around my gym business but unfortunately people just have no money anymore to join what they deem a luxury. Soden 12 i have no holiday home or indeed even my own home, i live in a rented house which i am in danger of being evicted from, i don't own a plasma or an suv so i think you a have preconceived idea of what being in self employment is like, when you are the boss you are responsible for everyone from staff to clients, everyone including the revenue get paid before you, sure you can schedule days off but you have to be available to cover when staff are ill, when you are away from your business you are never really off as it is a constant concern, i don't know what self employed people you know but the ones i know are struggling and fighting just to hold on to what was once their dream, mine which has now become a nightmare!! If we didn't have self employed people who would employ the workers in the country....i doubt the government has public sector jobs for the population!

    I really feel for you Rmmb, the likes of you had the guts to go out and take a risk, gutted that the risk has not paid off for you, all the best


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    #40
    matt70iu
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭matt70iu


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Does anyone know if someone self employed started paying class A PRSI, how long would it be before they were entitled to Jobseeker's Benefit ?

    You have to have made 106 contributions in your working life before you are eligible.

    see link:http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/JobseekerSupports/JobseekersBenefit/Pages/jb.aspx


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    #41
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    matt70iu wrote: »
    You have to have made 106 contributions in your working life before you are eligible.

    see link:http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Schemes/JobseekerSupports/JobseekersBenefit/Pages/jb.aspx

    When you open the document- keep reading down to the rules.....
    When the contributions were paid continues to apply- the only difference is the number of contributions has changed.


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    #42
    monz66
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭monz66


    While I have sympathy for those whose businesses are failing, I can't help thinking that if you have not done enough research into being self employed, then how do you expect to be successful. Opening a business is easy, but running a profitable one is not. If you haven’t even looked in to what type of PRSI contributions you should be paying then what else have you failed to research? In the good times mistakes are camouflaged, in the tough times ahead only the best prepared will survive.


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    #43
    matt70iu
    Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭matt70iu


    smccarrick wrote: »
    When you open the document- keep reading down to the rules.....
    When the contributions were paid continues to apply- the only difference is the number of contributions has changed.

    I stand corrected smccarrick:) Thanks to the budget!


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    #44
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    monz66 wrote: »
    If you haven’t even looked in to what type of PRSI contributions you should be paying then what else have you failed to research?

    Nobody ever pointed out there was a choice of types of PRSI to pay. Any self employed I knew just got billed for PRSI and paid it, anong with the other taxes, vat etc etc. Has anyone ever successfully changed from paying class S PRSI to paying Class A PRSI ? Is it even possible for a self employed person to pay class A PRSI / has anyone ever successfully done so ?


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    #45
    PLIIM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭PLIIM


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Nobody ever pointed out there was a choice of types of PRSI to pay. Any self employed I knew just got billed for PRSI and paid it, anong with the other taxes, vat etc etc. Has anyone ever successfully changed from paying class S PRSI to paying Class A PRSI ? Is it even possible for a self employed person to pay class A PRSI / has anyone ever successfully done so ?

    I know several who have, after i told them about it.
    Call revenue or your accountant.


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    #46
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Interesting. Thanks for that. The accountant says self employed people pay class S PRSI, and its not possible to change, or the revenue would not have this PRSI class for self employed.

    If a self employed person does sucessfully change their PRSI contribution class, how long will he / she be paying contributions brefore they can claim a non-means tested unemployment payment .... 2 years I think ? Maybe the revenue directly should be contacted....and the accountant changed or at least corrected.


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    #47
    PLIIM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭PLIIM


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Interesting. Thanks for that. The accountant says self employed people pay class S PRSI, and its not possible to change, or the revenue would not have this PRSI class for self employed.

    If a self employed person does sucessfully change their PRSI contribution class, how long will he / she be paying contributions brefore they can claim a non-means tested unemployment payment .... 2 years I think ? Maybe the revenue directly should be contacted....and the accountant changed or at least corrected.

    Ring revenue and ask them.
    You definitely can switch. You can even keep paying PRSI when you leave the country if you wanted.


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    #48
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    PLIIM wrote: »
    As far as i know if you provide for your own pension and are on S class your own oension will count towards the means test. Compare that to normal contributers who get the state pension + their own pension regardless. Thats about €1000 a month you would miss out on.
    A couple of things here - being self employed does not threaten the state pension, and if you make S class contributions the state pension is not means tested, so your point is incorrect. Secondly normal "contributors" don't contribute themselves, its their employers that make the contribution, so PAYE workers pay as much PRSI as the self employed. And in fairness its difficult enough to work for yourself without having to pay a premium for state security in case your enterprise fails (as most of them do).

    Honestly I'd advise against handing over 10% of your income in exchange for welfare assistance when you are probably entitled to SWA (supplementary welfare allowance) in any case.


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    #49
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    A couple of things here - being self employed does not threaten the state pension, and if you make S class contributions the state pension is not means tested, so your point is incorrect. Secondly normal "contributors" don't contribute themselves, its their employers that make the contribution, so PAYE workers pay as much PRSI as the self employed. And in fairness its difficult enough to work for yourself without having to pay a premium for state security in case your enterprise fails (as most of them do).

    Unless the normal contributor is a public sector employee :)


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    #50
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    smccarrick wrote: »
    Unless the normal contributor is a public sector employee :)
    Are those not pension levies rather than the employer's contribution?


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    #51
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Are those not pension levies rather than the employer's contribution?

    A public sector employee pays the regular PRSI- has the employers PRSI- same as anyone else- but then also pays towards 3 or 4 seperate pension schemes- such as Widows and Orphans etc. Typically they could have 3 or 4 pension related deductions- ontop of PRSI and the pensions levy. They also have their public pension reduced by whatever the current rate of contributory pension is- so for example, a public sector employee on 26k is entitled to a PRSI pension- but not a public sector employee- its only that portion of salaries above the cutoff- that generate a public sector pension. I can well understand why those cleaners on 22k, who just have had a 5% paycut, are pissed at the pensions levy etc.


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    #52
    Zicom
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Zicom


    soden12 wrote: »
    When it comes to tax I'm sure many self-employed people are earning close to minimum wage after they've offset their SUVs, their multiple holidays homes, their Plasma TVs, their jacuzzis and so-on.

    Self-employed are supposed to be dynamic entrepreneurs and go-getters but yet they cream it in during the good times, pay sweet-all tax, screw their employees and then moan when the lean times come and expect the taxpayer to bail them out.

    Well boys and gals - sell off one of your many properties and quit moaning. Maybe drop the golf-club membership as well or is it still needed to "network" with your banker buddies ?

    I guess you are not self employed!
    I am and I have a 1996 Landrover, no jacuzzi or second home and only one holiday in last 10 years. I work 70+ hours a week and pay staff more than I get myself. I'm lucky to cover the bills let alone make a wage for myself. Oh and I don't get holiday pay, sick pay or paid overtime.
    People make me mad who say it's easy without trying it themselves. Yes there are some benefits to being self employed like flexible hours, I often work all night! Right now I'd love a job where I get paid no matter if I slack of the odd day and don't work hard but still have the sane amount in my bank every week!


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    #53
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    Sell the landrover and buy a delorean.

    Then you could travel back in time to when the thread wasnt a zombie thread.


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