€4 billion in cuts -- too little, too late!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dan_d

Honestly??Some people are just really stupid.....that's the only explanation I can think of!

madmoe

Very very well said!

ei.sdraob

Ronan had a good post on subject which is well worth reading

http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/12/09/five-things-to-remember-when-judging-budget-2010/



i wish to higlight something

ronanlyons wrote:

As you can see, expenditure this year has exceeded even boomtime projections, despite all the cuts made, while tax revenues are more than 40% below what the government expected them to be.

ronanlyons wrote:

. Service of the national debt is projected to almost double next year to €4.62bn. In 2008, the figure was less than €2bn. That €3bn is money that has had to come out of public services – if a reasonable chunk of the McCarthy Report were implemented, we would have saved enough to just pay the interest on our new debt

yes thats right, we cant keep borrowing cause at the rate were going all the money taken in by taxes will go just to pay interest

that would be akin to all of the income of a household going to pay a mortgage

Dopey

Good post donegalfella!

baubl

madmoe wrote: »

Very very well said!

What is €4 billion in savings, when we are now paying €3 billion annually in interest repayments, and still borrowing like drunken sailors. We are running to stand still.

this budget is encouraging more alcohol consumption, we have too big a problem with alcohol, why feed it
too many homes wrecked by it
too many kids made miserable because of it
this product should be hiked


listning to the radio today,it is depressing, berties constituents have all received christmas cards, lots of us will not be able to afford to send cards this year,
we need oil, coal, gas, all gone up(should not have been hiked)
we do not need alcohol, just came down (should have been doubled)

ei.sdraob

baubl wrote: »

we need oil, coal, gas, all gone up(should not have been hiked)

blame the greens and other hippies for this. Btw did gas go up at all? i taught it was exempt somehow

baubl wrote: »

we do not need alcohol, just came down (should have been doubled)

if we dont need it then why do hundreds of thousands drive across the border to buy cheaper drink? youd rather Her Majesty get the money or the Revenue?

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Och ..you and your doom and gloom :rolleyes:

We're fine, everything is grand, Brian Lenihan said so himself:

The worst is over, we are now on the road to economic recovery

:pac:

hinault

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The issue of €4b savings could have been tackled in other ways.

I presume that you're aware of how much the public sector spends on "consulting" services to the Big 4?
Let me give you some numbers : RTE, receipient of licence fee from all
citizens, spent in 2007, €2.3 million on fees to PWC.
What was this expenditure for? To monitor expenditure and to verify the increase in the licence fee application.
So not only do RTE pay fees to PWC €2.3m - those fees also result in the eventual increase in the licence fee!.

Replicate this across all State/public sector agencies and there are millions which could be saved.

What about hospital consultants fees?
Paid from the public purse, our hospital consultants earn €250k pa working in the public health service.
French consultants are paid €90k pa.
British consultants average £100k pa.

What about the packages paid to the heads of various govt departments/bodies?
Michael Somers as head of NTMA had a package €900k pa.
The head of the ECB gets paid €330k pa.

What about pensions paid to retired civil servants?
Gardai when they retire get 66% of their retiring wage.

All of the above paid from the public purse.

How about the govt trying to expand the tax net?
what about doing away with artists/writers income tax exemptions?
Horse breeding sector isn't taxed at all - how about taxing them?



There are an entire sector of areas where taxes could, and should be imposed.
There is the urgent need to see how funds given to run the public sector is spent.

Idbatterim

OP you hit the nail on the head! I would call 50% cuts savage! the so called savage cut of 5% is nothing, when you account for deflation those on social welfare are better off! I wish they would just shut the bloody hell up! there are no alternatives! Maybe the few that are still working, should cough up even more to fund people that dont work or the overpaid PS!

ei.sdraob

if anyone thinks this budget is savage

then they should look at UK (where they are planning to cut the PS big time btw, and no tip toeing with unions) in last few years

everyone was made 30% poorer, equally! thru devaluation, a form of straight stealth tax

in order to keep houseprices up and get labour reelected

smellslikeshoes

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This comparison gets thrown around so much but rarely takes into account how much cheaper everyday things are in the UK. (Lets not forget how many Irish people are heading up North to shop this time of year)

With loosing your job being a pretty unforseen circumstance, its not a thing most people are going to be prepeared for. And I know that if I lost my job and was without work for more than a month or two I'd be rapidly going under with only a 100 euro a week. I would have personally liked to see blanket cuts rather than penalising one age group and I see this essentially forcing a lot of them move back to their parents.

Scofflaw

donegalfella wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Even that doesn't quite tell you the scale, since the state of California on its own has the ninth-largest economy in the world, with a GDP of $1.8 trillion in 2006 - where ours was $219 bn.

cordially,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

Where are all those posters who argued that you cannot tax your way out of a recession? The reasoning is that you should not throttle demand.

The same reasoning applies to cuts. You cannot cut your way out of a recession.

While it is necessary to tackle the exchequer deficit, the government is between Scylla and Charybdis. In consultation with the ECB, it is trying to find the middle way. Let's not run our economic policy on the basis of disliking public sector wasters and dole spongers. And let's not allow DF's Greek gifts delude us into dismantling the state.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

This comparison gets thrown around so much but rarely takes into account how much cheaper everyday things are in the UK.

answer this

why are things "cheaper" in UK?

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

answer this

why are things "cheaper" in UK?

Economies of scale.

Dannyboy83

Great post Donegalfella.
Had to laugh at the catapult comment


Baubl, its not about alcohol promotion.
Its a strategic move about protecting tax bases. (a weak one imo)

If the main attraction to the North was cheap coffins; then the government would try to stem the flow of money out of that industry too, by incentives; it doesn't mean they are advocating suicide as an artificial stimulus (regardless of what Bertie has to say about it).

ei.sdraob

hinault wrote: »

Economies of scale.

nothing to do with low minimum wages, welfare and PS costs? :rolleyes:

talk about narrowing in on the mouse while missing the dancing elephants in the room

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

nothing to do with low minimum wages, welfare and PS costs? :rolleyes:

talk about narrowing in on the mouse while missing the dancing elephants in the room

No mate.
It's your kind who fail to notice the bigger picture.

You tried earlier to make the facetious comparison of dole rates in the ROI with dole rates in Northern Ireland to try to justify your view that dole rates in the Republic are too high.

It is apparent that you were not aware that 1 in 3 of all jobs in NI, are public sector jobs.

Maybe if HM's govt were not forking out some much in public sector wages, that dole amounts in the UK would be higher.


You continually make the mistake of trying to compare Ireland to the UK
economically.

Apples and oranges amigo

seeker099

hinault wrote: »

The issue of €4b savings could have been tackled in other ways.

I presume that you're aware of how much the public sector spends on "consulting" services to the Big 4?
Let me give you some numbers : RTE, receipient of licence fee from all
citizens, spent in 2007, €2.3 million on fees to PWC.
What was this expenditure for? To monitor expenditure and to verify the increase in the licence fee application.
So not only do RTE pay fees to PWC €2.3m - those fees also result in the eventual increase in the licence fee!.

Replicate this across all State/public sector agencies and there are millions which could be saved.

What about hospital consultants fees?
Paid from the public purse, our hospital consultants earn €250k pa working in the public health service.
French consultants are paid €90k pa.
British consultants average £100k pa.

How about the govt trying to expand the tax net?
what about doing away with artists/writers income tax exemptions?
Horse breeding sector isn't taxed at all - how about taxing them?

There are an entire sector of areas where taxes could, and should be imposed.
There is the urgent need to see how funds given to run the public sector is spent.

Your point about blood stock industry is well taken but this is an industry and as a result provides growth and revenue and as far as i am aware the artists arent tax exempt anymore but i could be wrong. But yes there are areas that could provide needed revenue but with a massive public sector bill for a country the size of Manchester, this cut was modest and had to be tackled.

Benchmarking should provide those in the public sector with the same levels of pay as those in the private right? Well for some reason it only works in an upward direction.Why is that?

You can never tax your way out of a downturn this is why the eighties depression lasted so long. Promote growth and cut spending thats the only way to recovery. Tax breaks to sectors in the private sector that create jobs. Because with a strong priv sector there is no public sector.

Whether you like it or not the more tax breaks for the rich and big business the better. These people and companies create jobs and bring investment and wealth. This was the basis of the celt tiger. Providing us with Microsoft and Intel.

Another non popular point in that the foreigners who have come here are now more than ever needed in the economy. They typically dont have large mortgages or debts and can work for far less, this in turn helps business grow and provides you with cheaper services and products which in turn allows you to have a larger disposable income.

And as for them taking jobs, well if the only people who worked in Mc Donalds were irish then the price of a Big Mac would more likely be €12 to help pay there wage bill.

ei.sdraob

hinault wrote: »

No mate.
It's your kind who fail to notice the bigger picture.

higher wages lead to higher prices, basic inflation
we just live thru a large inflationary period
while the UK didnt inflate as much
hence they are cheaper


btw thanks! you just highlighted my point by saying that 1/3 in NI are in the public sector, the public sector in the UK get paid much less than here, hence proving my point


apples or watermelons, makes no difference considering that both are made of water, except one has much more of it

Stark

baubl wrote: »

this budget is encouraging more alcohol consumption, we have too big a problem with alcohol, why feed it
too many homes wrecked by it
too many kids made miserable because of it
this product should be hiked


listning to the radio today,it is depressing, berties constituents have all received christmas cards, lots of us will not be able to afford to send cards this year,
we need oil, coal, gas, all gone up(should not have been hiked)
we do not need alcohol, just came down (should have been doubled)

I didn't realise people couldn't just go up North to get their alcohol when it becomes too expensive down South.

CamperMan

4 billion is not enough for the cuts.. this government is spending something like 25 billion more than it is raking in

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

higher wages lead to higher prices, basic inflation
we just live thru a large inflationary period
while the UK didnt inflate as much
hence they are cheaper

No one is denying that this country became over inflated in recent years.

However, historically Britain was always cheaper than Ireland.
I can remember visiting the UK, for the first time, in the 1970's - and being amazed at how much lower everything was in the UK (lower wages, lower petrol prices - and that's when IR£ and GBP£ were linked, lower food prices etc).

Economy of scale always ensures that the UK will be lower than ROI.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

btw thanks! you just highlighted my point by saying that 1/3 in NI are in the public sector, the public sector in the UK get paid much less than here, hence proving my point

Which wasn't the point you were making.
You cited welfare payments in NI and tried to compare them with rates in ROI.
Comparing apples and oranges.

If the UK cut the number of state jobs in NI - more people there would be in receipt of payments from the UK exchequer up there.

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

blame the greens and other hippies for this. Btw did gas go up at all? i taught it was exempt somehow

Well according to some greens natural gas is not a fossil fuel
Remember that famous interview with Pat Kenny i think it was

Anyway back to donegalfella's point...

Yeah the cuts are too late. When the first hint of credit crunch was happening and construciton sector slowing down, the other country in Europe with massive construction buuble, Spain, had it's goevrnment back form their hoildiays making decisions.

Meanwhile our government were on holidays, burying their heads in the sand and stating they would make changes come the budget which was a about 5 months away at the time. :rolleyes:

It was the same with the bank deposits, they complained about Joe Duffy show bringing to light what everyone knew that the deposit guarantee scheme was inadequate.
then low and behold things were so bad they decided to guarantee everything not alone the depositors and in the worst banks :rolleyes:
Then we had an early budget that did nothing really and had to be follwoed by another one.

The reason I am dragging these things up is that the government, including the much lauded finance minister, are forever playing catch up.

I have no faith in their ability to scratch their ar*** nevermind make a decision and implement policies that will help us out of this mess that they got us into.

Why haven't the semi states being touched ?
Why hasn't the ESB dropped it's prices and thus help both Irish business and the Irish households of public and private sector workers alike ?
Oh wait it is because one of those quangoes, yet another regulator, has said prices have to be maintained in order to make it a competitive playing field for other providers. :rolleyes:
Meanwhile we have some of the highest electricity costs in Europe. :mad:

AFAIK CIE do get a subvention from the state, why not cut the subvention ?
Have CIE salaries being cut or is mr ogle still playing comrade stalin ?

Why hasn't one single quangoe being axed ?
Oh wait they have yet another consultation body set up to report on these.
What is it ?
Perhaps a quangoe to oversea the axing of fellow quangoes ?

Cuts need to be made now, not tomorrow, not next December.

We are still hemorrhaging millions everyday and the government and it's deluded supporters seem to think it is great that we have put a fecking band aid on the wound. :rolleyes:

The floods make me think of the image of biffo clowen taking his thumb out of his ar**, and sticking it into the massive gaping hole in the damm and he actually thinks he is saving the town even though water is pouring through all around him.

Of course we all know that image is laughable, since clowen doesn't go very near flooded areas. :rolleyes:

funnyname

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

Please look at the bigger picture and forget about looking after yourself, everyone one needs to make sacrifices!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hinault

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There are areas of the public sector who wages are far too high, DF.
Hospital Consultants, Head of NTMA, CEO of the Central Bank, Head of Govt Departments, are all far too high.
Cuts in their salaries and packages are required.

Remuneration at the middle and lower levels of the public services needed to be examined.
But the salary scale and package scale at the higher end of the public sector needs to be cut - and cut drastically.

Also how expenditure, on non-pay items, in the public sector needs to be looked at.
Procurement proceedures for the big spending govt departments needs to be examined and amended to ensure value for money.

zootroid

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where are all those posters who argued that you cannot tax your way out of a recession? The reasoning is that you should not throttle demand.

The same reasoning applies to cuts. You cannot cut your way out of a recession.

While it is necessary to tackle the exchequer deficit, the government is between Scylla and Charybdis. In consultation with the ECB, it is trying to find the middle way. Let's not run our economic policy on the basis of disliking public sector wasters and dole spongers. And let's not allow DF's Greek gifts delude us into dismantling the state.

But surely if the some members of the public sector are overpaid, which the ESRI highlighted that they were, then any cuts to their pay can be used elsewhere to get a greater return?

Not to mention the interest that is being paid on what we're borrowing....

funnyname

hinault wrote: »

There are areas of the public sector who wages are far too high, DF.

lol

zootroid

jmayo wrote: »

Why hasn't one single quangoe being axed ?
Oh wait they have yet another consultation body set up to report on these.
What is it ?
Perhaps a quangoe to oversea the axing of fellow quangoes ?

Cuts need to be made now, not tomorrow, not next December.

This is the one thing that bugs me. Government ministers refuse to take responsibility for government agencies that they are responsible for. They can't make decisions, so they outsource it by setting up a committee. The simple criteria should be: does it provide value for money? No? Then you're gone.

Justin Collery

Great post OP, I'm delighted to see I am not the only one looking around me and wondering why can no one else see the obvious.

I do not want to labour the points already made about spending being too high and the inability to increase taxes to make up the shortfall. +1 from me.

I would like to add that I believe the estimates for growth over the coming years are exaggerated. They do not seem to me to take account of the continued deleveraging - the sucking of cash out of the economy by the banks. This is necessary, but I think will put a lag on growth. The overhang of private debt in the economy and the lack of new credit will suppress revenue from VAT and income taxes, making a bad situation worse.

The truth is I see no viable plan to get out of this mess. No creditable 5 year plan has been presented. I also see no alternative from the opposition. My only real question is do we go bust in 18 months when the country cannot borrow any more, or is there a trigger (I'm thinking Greece) which makes it happen sooner.

Diarmuid

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You lost most of the anti-cut people at +. They don't do maths.

Liam79

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Stalker Alert! If you see this man loitering outside your childs school, looking angry, taking down car regs of every single teacher, be sure to call the police!!

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think there is general agreement that this is a problem.

And I don't think I'm alone in objecting to this. Ireland is now widely regarded across the international community as a country that has thrown all notions of fiscal rectitude out the window.

I'm not going to be drawn on that: it's another argument.

There's no "dislike" of public servants or welfare recipients involved here, nor does my post denigrate them as "wasters and spongers." Regardless of our feelings toward them, we can't afford to pay them what they are currently receiving. That is just objective economic fact.

I don't know how much of what is posted on this forum you read, but I imagine that you are aware of the tenor of much of the discussion here. I wasn't suggesting that you denigrated them in this post (although you have been less than kind about public sector employees in other discussions).

Believe it or not, there are moderates within the public sector who will admit that many in their cohort are overpaid, that the PS union leaders are too aggressive and unreasonable, and that many PS employees are out of touch with the true state of the country.

One of my good friends, a young primary school teacher, admits that she felt ashamed and embarrassed to be seen picketing outside her school last month. Many of the parents of the children she teaches are unemployed; they consider her to have a plum job, a good salary, and generous time off. She knows at least two mothers who now walk their children to school because the family can no longer afford the expense of taxing and insuring a second car—and yet no teacher at the school has a car older than an "05" model.

Generalities and anecdote. I consider myself a moderate, and do not have a fundamental objection to the measures taken to reduce public sector pay; I will even go so far as to say that I think it wrong that my pension was not adjusted in a somewhat similar way.

So, back to your question: what am I talking about?

First, the bit that you didn't quote, I presume because you don't disagree with it: the economic effect of taking so much demand out of the system, and the need to reduce expenditure in a phased way.

Second, the bit you did quote and question, perhaps because I did not spell it out clearly enough: the balanced budget is a shibboleth beloved of right-wingers, many of whom also want taxes kept as low as possible. The implication of adopting such views are that the state could not, and would not, provide financial support to the unemployed, the ill, and the old, and the level of public service would be reduced to a fraction of what we now have. I saw your post as a Trojan horse for libertarianism. Perhaps not intentionally so, but you might agree that your views tend to reflect the libertarian views that you profess elsewhere.

jmayo

Liam79 wrote: »

Stalker Alert! If you see this man loitering outside your childs school, looking angry, taking down car regs of every single teacher, be sure to call the police!!

Great contribution there :rolleyes:

milnerr3

donegalfella wrote: »

Young people are "horrified" to have their dole cut to €100 or €150 a week, when the comparable rate in the UK is £47.95 (€52.75) per week for anyone aged between 16 and 24.

in full agreement with many of the sentiments expressed in the initial post...the social welfare system here is a joke! i know that economic comparisons between britain and ireland are unsound, but in relation to social welfare, in britain the unemployed are focused on finding employment through state initiatives, whereas here in ireland the focus for the unemployed is soley on getting the dole...

amacachi

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree with a lot of what you say on a lot of topics but it's easy to pick one example to show we're paying more than the UK. Other than young people sitting with their parents the UK's dole is pretty much on par with ours. People will point out their low dole but for families there are a lot of other payments available which in most cases bring it right up to our rate.

nesf

Liam79 wrote: »

Stalker Alert! If you see this man loitering outside your childs school, looking angry, taking down car regs of every single teacher, be sure to call the police!!

Don't contribute crap like this to threads if you want to retain your ability to post here. Attack the post not the poster!

Rookster

The country is still in a very seious situation and the Public Sector will have to take another cut next year as well. Especially those on the higher salaries.Why are assistant principals on 70k a year? All the wages will have to move downwards and the pension levy should be increased as the ordinary taxpayer is still funding the vast majority of these very generous pensions. If the Public Sector wants to retire on a big fat pension, then pay for it yourselves.

Arsenal1986

milnerr3 wrote: »

donegalfella wrote: »

Young people are "horrified" to have their dole cut to €100 or €150 a week, when the comparable rate in the UK is £47.95 (€52.75) per week for anyone aged between 16 and 24.

in full agreement with many of the sentiments expressed in the initial post...the social welfare system here is a joke! i know that economic comparisons between britain and ireland are unsound, but in relation to social welfare, in britain the unemployed are focused on finding employment through state initiatives, whereas here in ireland the focus for the unemployed is soley on getting the dole...

Its only for new applicants so those ppl already on who are horrified neednt worry!

alejandro1977

One of my good friends, a young primary school teacher, admits that she felt ashamed and embarrassed to be seen picketing outside her school last month. ...

She knows at least two mothers who now walk their children to school because the family can no longer afford the expense of taxing and insuring a second car—and yet no teacher at the school has a car older than an "05" model.

Liam79 wrote: »

Stalker Alert! If you see this man loitering outside your childs school, looking angry, taking down car regs of every single teacher, be sure to call the police!!

DF's statement seems to me to clearly imply that it was his female friend who noticed that "and yet no teacher at the school has a car older than an "05" model" - and was embarrassed about it.

Your anti Private Sector rants are not doing your arguments any favours.

brianthebard

DF in 'the government was not thatcherite enough!' shocker.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Where are all those posters who argued that you cannot tax your way out of a recession? The reasoning is that you should not throttle demand.

The same reasoning applies to cuts. You cannot cut your way out of a recession.

While it is necessary to tackle the exchequer deficit, the government is between Scylla and Charybdis. In consultation with the ECB, it is trying to find the middle way. Let's not run our economic policy on the basis of disliking public sector wasters and dole spongers. And let's not allow DF's Greek gifts delude us into dismantling the state.

At least someone willing to acknowledge the downsides of cuts, good post P.B.

FlutterinBantam

Good start.

We cannot afford Public service/HSE/Social welfare bill.

Thems the facts.... hard facts.

No use keening and moaning,had to be done.

Most of the people affected wouldn't stoop down to pick a 50c piece off the floor.


Let's get on with it, and stop pandering to the people who think that it's the State's job to look after them while they make little of no effort.

Stark

Rookster wrote:

Why are assistant principals on 70k a year?

Because ordinary teachers at the top of the payscale are on 70k a year and an assistant principal has far more responsibility.

Rookster

Stark wrote: »

Because ordinary teachers at the top of the payscale are on 70k a year and an assistant principal has far more responsibility

.

You don't get it. Why should someone who works 7 or 8 months a year be on an excessive salary like this? That is the point!

Valmont

Donegalfella, when are you going to start the Irish Libertarian party so we can all join and march on Leinster house in 2011?

Stark

Rookster wrote: »

You don't get it. Why should someone who works 7 or 8 months a year be on an excessive salary like this? That is the point!

I do get it. I think all the teachers on €70k salaries should have their salaries cut. There are far less assistant principals though and they have far more responsibilities so they're not the people to be looking at.

Eliot Rosewater

Note how the principle attacks made against the original post, from P Breathneach and brianthebard, didn't actually address anything said in the post, but rather the political dispositions of the OP.

danman

Donegalfella, as a fellow Donegal man, you will be awere of people with crossborder jobs.

A prime example of wage diiferentials between the 2, is my own wife.

She worked in the public sector in NI for almost 10 years.
She moved jobs to the south, 2 years ago.
She was on the equvilant of 40,000euro in the north, she started the exact same job in the south on 65,000euro. over 50% more than she was on before. She actually ended up at the bottom of the pay scale. For her experience, she should have been on 80,000euro, but the sourthern board didn't recognise her experience in the north.

The exact same job. 40,000euro more, 100% more.

She was upset last night, untill I reminded her that she is still far better off than 2 years ago.

Public sector pay had to be cut, and if the unions try to stop reform next year, they will be cut again.