Why are we not taking to the streets to protest at this?

ste365

Are there people outside the Dail right now? We cannot accept this budget...the millionaires sit cozy in their homes having made their millions and now the lower classes are expected to pay back for something they never created or really benefitted from like the wealthy richer classes did during that celtic tiger. The cuts now will lead to even greater cuts in the future....this today is only the start!

frman

The cuts weren't too bad imo.

What exactly would you be protesting about ?

Drumpot

Because most of us know that we need to take serious pain to get the country back on track . . .

Striking on the streets wont makeup 400mil a week . .

This budget should of been tougher in my opinion . .

Nonoperational

Ah just go away and move to another country so OP. Im getting so pisd off with these moaners. Go away and do something constructive.

A Primal Nut

Its not about taking a cut! During the celtic tiger, the government were too generous and now are cutting back.

Don't see why we should punish the millionaires - they aren't the ones who are paying low tax or claiming social welfare.

jenzz

I think an individuals personal situation will determine how bad the cuts seem.

certain sectors ie SW, public sector, parents are not gonna be very impressed tonight to put it mildly. Wheras someone in the private sector on 60K may just see a reduction in the cost of beer, an increase in diesel & thats really it. They wont see their taxes incresed causing a reduction wheras the public sector mammy or daddy may feel harder pinched. A SW recipiant may feel the cuts are very bad getting a reduction in their weekly payment, a prescription charge because they have a medical card & 10% on the kiddies allowance.

Really it depends what sector your in to how bad you will view it.

gaeilgegrinds

I'm quite content to be honest. I'll be quite significantly less well off but it seems fairly balanced.

Rb

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Its not about taking a cut! During the celtic tiger, the government were too generous and now are cutting back.

Don't see why we should punish the millionaires - they aren't the ones who are paying low tax or claiming social welfare.

This is exactly it. We didn't save money during the good years, we pumped it out and everyone benefitted. Now there's no money and we have to cut back to realistic levels. Fair enough budget as far as I'm concerned.

snickerpuss

There were people outside the Dáil from about 1 and at the moment (I'm on Kildare St) I can hear protesters shouting, don't think there are very many though!

Drumpot

Received this from a friend , who is an accountant . . .

I think it articulates the point very very well . . .

[FONT=&quot]Bar Stool Economics

Written by: Dr David R. Kamerschen
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

The fifth would pay $1.

The sixth would pay $3.

The seventh would pay $7.

The eighth would pay $12.

The ninth would pay $18.

The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.



So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men-the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.


And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).

The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).

The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).



Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "But he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"

"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a 20% tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up any more. In fact, they might start drinking overseas.


Dr David R. Kamerschen
Professor of Economics
University of Georgia


For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

ste365

Protesting at the injustice of the way the government treats the less well off in this country.
How many of the bankers involved in creating this mess have been held accountable...not one! Look at America who managed to find out some of the main players who were corrupt with billions of dollars....Mandoff was brought be held accountable...the Irish government has not tightened their net on catching these people....had their been evidence of this happening then at least some sort of justice was being achieved and people would say fair enough. The same people in positions across the banking secotor are still hlding positions in the banks....how can this be. How can the government take less % pay cuts than the lower classes. How can the government allow a 500,000 pay for banking officials...after all they have done the same people who were in positionsin the banking industry still hold positions and receive their huge salaries.

You seem lucky to be in a position where the cuts obviously are not going to destory your position in Irish society. Some of us are less lucky.
A good example of the way people are treated in this country is shown by the man last Saturday who was put in a police car....driven to Mountjoy Jail and put into jail for not paying for a 12.50 dog license....someone with a bit of kop on released him at 10pm that night. This man lives on his own after being homeless and got a dog to keep him company from the animal rescue centre. The man has noone in life and was not looked out for by the people who rule this country. He was sent to jail for a 12.50 licesne fee!

This is outrageous and is an example of the way the rulers of this country deal with the poeple. Those with their millions are protected. Those who have little or nothing are walkeed all over by the state.

There in no justice being shown in this country in so many areas anymore.

Thats what we should be protesting about.

jackthekipper

Drumpot wrote: »

Received this from a friend , who is an accountant . . .

I think it articulates the point very very well . . .

[font=&quot]Bar Stool Economics[/font]

[font=&quot]Written by: Dr David R. Kamerschen[/font]
[font=&quot] Professor of Economics[/font]
[font=&quot] University of Georgia[/font]

[font=&quot]Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:[/font]

[font=&quot]The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.[/font]

[font=&quot]The fifth would pay $1.[/font]

[font=&quot]The sixth would pay $3.[/font]

[font=&quot]The seventh would pay $7.[/font]

[font=&quot]The eighth would pay $12.[/font]

[font=&quot]The ninth would pay $18.[/font]

[font=&quot]The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.[/font]



[font=&quot]So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.[/font]

[font=&quot]The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men-the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?[/font]

[font=&quot]They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.[/font]

[font=&quot]So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.[/font]


[font=&quot]And so:[/font]

[font=&quot]The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).[/font]

[font=&quot]The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).[/font]

[font=&quot]The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).[/font]

[font=&quot]The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).[/font]

[font=&quot]The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).[/font]

[font=&quot]The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).[/font]



[font=&quot]Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.[/font]

[font=&quot]"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, "But he got $10!"[/font]

[font=&quot]"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I did!"[/font]

[font=&quot]"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!"[/font]

[font=&quot]"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"[/font]

[font=&quot]The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.[/font]

[font=&quot]The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill![/font]

[font=&quot]And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a 20% tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up any more. In fact, they might start drinking overseas. [/font]


[font=&quot]Dr David R. Kamerschen[/font]
[font=&quot]Professor of Economics[/font]
[font=&quot]University of Georgia[/font]


[font=&quot]For those who understand, no explanation is needed. [/font]
[font=&quot]For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.[/font]

I also got an email from a Nigerian prince promising me millions.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp

DublinWriter

ste365 wrote: »

Why are we not taking to the streets to protest at this?

Because it's raining.

nice1franko

Remember kids, benchmarking is not just for boom times.

freewheeler

Unfortunately as can be seen from some of the replies here the Irish people are only too willing to march blindly behind these goons running the country..and therin lies the root of all our woes....

bamboozle

nice1franko wrote: »

Remember kids, benchmarking is not just for boom times.

very good!!

however in fairness i think the govt should have left the first 24k or so of public service wages free of paycuts.

harsh but fair budget.

gent9662

5 to 8% cuts for public sector! At last. Let's hope they tackle the Garda allowances and pension next.

frman

ste365 wrote: »

Protesting at the injustice of the way the government treats the less well off in this country.
How many of the bankers involved in creating this mess have been held accountable...not one! Look at America who managed to find out some of the main players who were corrupt with billions of dollars....Mandoff was brought be held accountable...the Irish government has not tightened their net on catching these people....had their been evidence of this happening then at least some sort of justice was being achieved and people would say fair enough. The same people in positions across the banking secotor are still hlding positions in the banks....how can this be. How can the government take less % pay cuts than the lower classes. How can the government allow a 500,000 pay for banking officials...after all they have done the same people who were in positionsin the banking industry still hold positions and receive their huge salaries.

You seem lucky to be in a position where the cuts obviously are not going to destory your position in Irish society. Some of us are less lucky.
A good example of the way people are treated in this country is shown by the man last Saturday who was put in a police car....driven to Mountjoy Jail and put into jail for not paying for a 12.50 dog license....someone with a bit of kop on released him at 10pm that night. This man lives on his own after being homeless and got a dog to keep him company from the animal rescue centre. The man has noone in life and was not looked out for by the people who rule this country. He was sent to jail for a 12.50 licesne fee!

This is outrageous and is an example of the way the rulers of this country deal with the poeple. Those with their millions are protected. Those who have little or nothing are walkeed all over by the state.

There in no justice being shown in this country in so many areas anymore.

Thats what we should be protesting about.

Seriously ?

Sounds like you just wanted to protest regardless of what was in the budget.

GigaByte

I actually thought the budget was going to be a lot worse than it was.

Drumpot

jackthekipper wrote: »

I also got an email from a Nigerian prince promising me millions.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp

We will put you in the latter bracket (those that do not understand) . .

Not sure what your nigerian prince comment means (as it is totally out of context to my post!).

Incedentally your link only questions the authenticity of the author, it doesnt challenge the logic . . . Oh dear . .

The analogy is still sound my friend . .;)

partyatmygaff

One of the fairest budgets possible imo, a lot better than expected.

smog

First budget that i have liked and actually makes sense, for years!!

leninbenjamin

ste365 wrote: »

Are there people outside the Dail right now? We cannot accept this budget...the millionaires sit cozy in their homes having made their millions and having created thousands of jobs and now the lower classes are expected to pay back for something they never created or really benefitted from like the wealthy richer classes did during that celtic tiger. The cuts now will lead to even greater cuts in the future....this today is only the start!

fyp.

jackthekipper wrote: »

I also got an email from a Nigerian prince promising me millions.

http://www.snopes.com/business/taxes/howtaxes.asp

you're Nigerian doesn't have the endorsement of academics and experts in the field though.

freewheeler

It should be remembered in light of this budget that we have already bailed out the banks to the tune of 11 BILLION and counting..and now is the time for the usual suspects (Irish taxpayer) to start paying this back..remember that all of you who think that this is a 'FAIR' budget...

Sconsey

I'm not protesting because I do not believe there is anything to protest about. the economy is fcuked, serious corrective economic action needed, protesting these actions is futile/stupid, it won't make anything better for the economy. Suck it up and take the cuts, better than having no wage at all.

frman

freewheeler wrote: »

It should be remembered in light of this budget that we have already bailed out the banks to the tune of 11 BILLION and counting..and now is the time for the usual suspects (Irish taxpayer) to start paying this back..remember that all of you who think that this is a 'FAIR' budget...

This budget isnt paying for NAMA or the banks.

It is to correct our current defecit.

ste365

Anglo Irish is goign to need a further 6 billion next year. There is no provision for this in this budget.
Anyone who thinks this is a fair budget does not realise that the figures that have been dealt out in this budget are going to lead to an almighty bang in next years budget. Next years budget will be billions more in cuts than this one. If and when you have lost your job and are in touble financially then you will realise that this is no a fair budget.

frman

ste365 wrote: »

Anglo Irish is goign to need a further 6 billion next year. There is no provision for this in this budget.

That's because the budget isnt paying for the banks.

danman

My wife is down 4,000euro.
No complaints from us. we know that the country needs us to tighten our belt, anyone that doesn't understand that should protest all they want.

It was a good budget in my opinion.

prinz

ste365 wrote: »

... now the lower classes are expected to pay back for something they never created or really benefitted from like the wealthy richer classes did during that celtic tiger.

Everyone benefitted. Everyone.

Drumpot

Edit . .

ste365

created thousands of jobs.......which are all gone now!!!!

Wake up and realise that the economy we have been living in for years having been created by property gurus and banking officials has been a false word that was never real!!! Payback time is happening to the lower classes and the upper wealthier classes who have most benefitted from this are being protected by the government.

CityCentreMan

Drumpot wrote: »

Received this from a friend , who is an accountant . . .

[font=&quot]For those who understand, no explanation is needed. [/font]
[font=&quot]For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.[/font]

Brilliant post!

That said, 5% for all PS workers under EU30K is very high and IMHO unfair given the low cuts applied to the Taoiseach, Ministers & Dail. They should be leading by example!

Any word on Politicians expenses, duplicated pensions etc.....

PS I am not a PS Worker and generally would be amongst the strongest advocates of PS reform..

jackthekipper

freewheeler wrote: »

Unfortunately as can be seen from some of the replies here the Irish people are only too willing to march blindly behind these goons running the country..and therin lies the root of all our woes....

What do you suggest, sit round listen to Muse and "take to the streets"? Seriously, what are your suggestions, please and with your expected results.

frman

CityCentreMan wrote: »

Brilliant post!

That said, 5% for all PS workers under EU30K is very high and IMHO unfair given the low cuts applied to the Taoiseach, Ministers & Dail. They should be leading by example!

Any word on Politicians expenses, duplicated pensions etc.....

PS I am not a PS Worker and generally would be amongst the strongest advocates of PS reform..

20% for the Taoiseach and 15% for ministers.

That is a lot more than the ps workers under 30k.

Or did you want the reduction to come in flesh weight ?

jackthekipper

Drumpot wrote: »

We will put you in the latter bracket (those that do not understand) . .

Not sure what your nigerian prince comment means (as it is totally out of context to my post!).

Incedentally your link only questions the authenticity of the author, it doesnt challenge the logic . . . Oh dear . .

The analogy is still sound my friend . .;)

Yeah, I'm one of them, basically don't believe everything you read in emails
Do 10% of Irish taxpayers pay 59% of the tax, if so then it is.

freewheeler

prinz wrote: »

Everyone benefitted. Everyone.

some WAY more than others...

The_Conductor

I don't think the budget went far enough- and I do think that we are possibly looking at another emergency budget in 6 months time. The cost of servicing Irish debt rose .45% in the immediate aftermath of the Irish budget- which goes to show international investors are now lumping us with Greece.......

ste365

frman wrote: »

That's because the budget isnt paying for the banks.

Who owns Anglo Irish? The governent will have to use taxpayers money to bail it out more. Its a fact. And has been addressed by the oposition after his speech!

frman

freewheeler wrote: »

some WAY more than others...

So what ?

Euro_Kraut

ste365, why are YOU not out protesting? Its a bit rich coming on here to give out about the rest of the country not doing it when you are not at it yourself.

Rb

Indeed, we created the largest middle class in Europe. Anyone who wanted to earn money had the opportunity to do so and a lot of lower class people moved into the middle class as a consequence. It wasn't sustainable though and it was never going to be, so there's quite a few delusional people in the country who believe that they shouldn't be affected, though they inadvertently benefitted hugely from it.

It wasn't sustainable and now we're feeling the effects, everyone has to cut back including those who didn't get off their arses and use the opportunities during the good years.

It should have been a lot tougher imo.

Public pay/pensions are still far too high. By 2050 public sector pensions will cost the country 13% of GDP :eek:

I also think child benefit should be scrapped bar for people on social welfare.

Drumpot

jackthekipper wrote: »

Yeah, I'm one of them, basically don't beliebe everything you read in emails

Seriously dude . . Stop . . Please stop . .

Doesnt matter who the email is from or who wrote it . .

The example is a fair reflection of the "tax the rich" stance some people (who dont understand basic economics) take in these times without understanding the dynamics involved in balancing the books. .

What, in any world, has that got in comparison to those viral emails about Nigerian bank millions that have no explanation of anything ? ? ?

Do you understand what an analogy is ?

ste365

frman wrote: »

Seriously ?

Sounds like you just wanted to protest regardless of what was in the budget.

You sound liek you have come out of this budget well.

Fair Play.

Lucky you. Reality doens't exist for so many people in Irish society....so many people live in their own little bubbles....wait until hard times hit you and then you will know all about it.

The_Conductor

ste365 wrote: »

Who owns Anglo Irish? The governent will have to use taxpayers money to bail it out more. Its a fact. And has been addressed by the oposition after his speech!

The Irish taxpayer owns Anglo Irish- and given that the stock market value of BOI and AIB are already less than the government has bailed them out by- they are effectively on life support.

The budget may not be addressing expenditure related to the banking sector- but thats only because of the smoke and mirrors tactics employed by the government to keep the incredible sums involved off the official balance sheet.

prinz

freewheeler wrote: »

some WAY more than others...

Yeah agreed, didn't benefits for the unemployed double? My pay certainly didn't.

Breezer

freewheeler wrote: »

Unfortunately as can be seen from some of the replies here the Irish people are only too willing to march blindly behind these goons running the country..and therin lies the root of all our woes....

So what is your alternative? Bloody revolution? All out strikes by everyone, making things worse & necessitating even more cuts?

I'm an FGer, I've been criticising the government on here & elsewhere for years, and at first glance this budget is the first sign that the government is finally starting to act on people's criticism. It shouldn't have come to this but that's no reason not to do something about it.

Cue cries of 'see there's no difference between FF & FG'.

faceman

BUdget could have been alot worse IMO. Income tax was untouched. The hit to child benefit wasnt that bad. Some protection provided for those in negative equity and in difficultly with their mortgages.

The hits to the public sector mirror what has been happening in the private sector for a long time.

The carbon tax nonsense gets on my wick tho. A fancy term for is essentially tax increases on essentials that isnt used to help improve the environment.

frman

ste365 wrote: »

You sound liek you have come out of this budget well.

Fair Play.

Lucky you. Reality doens't exist for so many people in Irish society....so many people live in their own little bubbles....wait until hard times hit you and then you will know all about it.

I'll pay my fair share like everyone else.

Have you been hit with a massive reduction that I missed in the budget or something ?

Or are you one of the people that believe that they shouldn't have to suffer any reduction in standard of living ?

ste365

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

ste365, why are YOU not out protesting? Its a bit rich coming on here to give out about the rest of the country not doing it when you are not at it yourself.

I already have been over the last few weeks. Get down off your high horse.