Behringer

PaulBrewer

http://www.music-group.net/

Look what Behringer is buying !

kfoltman

Never heard of it!

So, Paul, are you going to become a Behringer distributor now? *ducks*

PaulBrewer

We sell the Headphone Amps ! They're good !!

jimi_t

PaulBrewer wrote: »

We sell the Headphone Amps ! They're good !!

Along with their MIDI gear its about all of use that they do though

Welease

jimi_t wrote: »

Along with their MIDI gear its about all of use that they do though

I've also heard good things about their clone guitar pedals.. not used them myself tho.

Dravokivich

aw man... i hope they don't cheap out on this gear :eek:

- Drav!

jimi_t

Welease wrote: »

I've also heard good things about their clone guitar pedals.. not used them myself tho.

They're not true bypass so we happily lead parallel lives

godfrey

I'm not allowing myself to comment on this.

g

PaulBrewer

godfrey wrote: »

I'm not allowing myself to comment on this.

g

And yet .....

Savman

jimi_t wrote: »

Along with their MIDI gear its about all of use that they do though

You know this POV doesn't hold well up to scrutiny right? For every story of failure with a Behringer, there are dozens of stories of over satisfied customers. Perhaps, in a recession, it might be time for a mature discussion on the Behringer topic, one that doesnt have a base in badge snobbery?

trackmixstudio

Pretty hilarious considering how Behringer totally ripped off the venice console recently.
If you can't beat them, buy them:D
At least Uli had the good taste to set up a new company for Midas and KT.
Maybe he wanted the r&d and experienced engineers rather than the brands because I would think the pro market will totally boycott these brands now.

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Pretty hilarious considering how Behringer totally ripped off the venice console recently.
If you can't beat them, buy them:D
At least Uli had the good taste to set up a new company for Midas and KT.
Maybe he wanted the r&d and experienced engineers rather than the brands because I would think the pro market will totally boycott these brands now.

And there was the small matter of 'similarities' between a Mackie product and one of theirs in the 90s ...

DamagedTrax

this is a bad day.

jimi_t

Savman wrote: »

You know this POV doesn't hold well up to scrutiny right? For every story of failure with a Behringer, there are dozens of stories of over satisfied customers.

Similarly, for every story of someone who derided Squier branded kit, there were dozens of other people who raved about it because they had nothing better to compare it to.

Behringer is at the very bottom of the scale in every regard - offering entry level kit to people who simply can't afford something more reputable and better built. Usually they've never used what the Behringer equivalent is trying to emulate, and ergo are perfectly happy with it.

Perhaps, in a recession, it might be time for a mature discussion on the Behringer topic, one that doesnt have a base in badge snobbery?

If I thought you were making a remotely salient point I'd acquiese, but I think you're just trying to point score. The ONLY Behringer kit that isn't universally renowned as a complete waste of money would be;

BCR-2000
BCF-2000
ADA-80000
Headphone Multichannel Amp
'Shark'(?) DSP (Arguably)
BCD-3000 (Arguably)

The rest of it is simply a mix of other competitors chassis' filled with 5c op-amps and cheap chinese capacitors. When every badged bit of their gear on demo in a store has a whiff of 'Magic Smoke' then you know that, life-span wise, its not of much use. If I spotted a 'eurorack' in a studio I'd know exactly what I was in for.

Now, that said, their solidstate amps (which AFAIK they don't actually produce) are cheap and cheerful and generally OK as long as they're not DOA or particularly hummy. However, in terms of stuff that's going to flavour audio, thats about all I'd be willing to subject my signal chain to.

(For the record, I'm firmly at the consumer end of the scale - I've some old Zoom Rackmounts, M-Audio Monitors, Tascam Interfaces etc... I haven't much money, but rather than buying Behringer equivalents new I did the research and testing and ended up getting better gear second hand for the same price)

Savman

jimi_t wrote: »

Behringer is at the very bottom of the scale in every regard - offering entry level kit to people who simply can't afford something more reputable and better built. Usually they've never used what the Behringer equivalent is trying to emulate, and ergo are perfectly happy with it.

I see where this line of thinking originates, but it's seemingly at odds with this....

jimi_t wrote:

The ONLY Behringer kit that isn't universally renowned as a complete waste of money would be;

BCR-2000
BCF-2000
ADA-80000
Headphone Multichannel Amp
'Shark'(?) DSP (Arguably)
BCD-3000 (Arguably)

Are you suggesting I should dump my ADA8000's because I simply "don't know any better"? In spite of the fact they've given me 18 odd months of trouble free service and can be got for less than a third the price of the nearest market equivelant, are you honestly stating that, hands down, the Focusrites and Presonus three times as good as the Behringer? Because I beg to differ.

If I wanted top dollar external preamps, I'd have to go with a pair of €800+ units, which would be nuts for a bunch of channels I rarely use. So, well researched as your opinion may be, it lacks any logic whatsoever.

The high end pro audio world will never embrace Behringer, of course, nor any other manufacturer with an entry level/consumer target market.

Anyway I'm rambling now, basic point is that Behringer are quite clearly here to stay and, in my humble opinion, offer a number of decent units, priced very clearly at the entry level user. Yet still, even working pros have some Behringer gadgets hidden in their inventory somewhere, win-win for Uli.

splitrmx

http://www.apple.com

http://www.behringer.com/EN/home.aspx

jtsuited

splitrmx wrote: »

http://www.apple.com

http://www.behringer.com/EN/home.aspx

haha. wonder if Uli has genuinely considered the 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' defence in one of behringer's many trips to the courtroom.

their midi stuff is great (bcf,bcr, etc.) and I'm glad they're in that market as the sh1te that some manufacturers try to sell for ridiculous prices would be a lot more plentiful if they weren't.

didn't know they made an attempt at the venice desk. the venice is such an incredibly solid piece of gear, hence the reason you see them EVERYWHERE in the live arena.

People give behringer a hard time. A lot of people automatically presume that because of it's price it must be totally sh1te, but that's more of a reflection of the person's lack of understanding of how manufacturing economics works than anything else.

There is always stuff you're going to need that genuinely doesn't have to be good - it just has to be cheap and plentiful.

jimi_t

Savman wrote: »

Are you suggesting I should dump my ADA8000's because I simply "don't know any better"?

You see the bit you took the bother to quote but not read. The bit where I said that the ADA8000 was one of the very very few exceptions to the rule?

Anyway I'm rambling now, basic point is that Behringer are quite clearly here to stay and, in my humble opinion, offer a number of decent units, priced very clearly at the entry level user.

I agree about the rambling - especially when I've made the exact same point, only that I've gone so far as to narrow the 'number of decent units' down to 6 or so.

@PaulBrewer - Are you just thanking randomly on prinicple or what?

kfoltman

jtsuited wrote: »

There is always stuff you're going to need that genuinely doesn't have to be good - it just has to be cheap and plentiful.

100% agree. If I make music for myself and not to sell a CD, I don't need/can't afford a €900 mixing desk for headphone submix. A €60 second hand Behringer is sufficient to me, even if I end up repairing the power supply because electrolytic capacitors are shyte and tend to "bulge" and leak after a few years.

kfoltman

jtsuited wrote: »

haha. wonder if Uli has genuinely considered the 'imitation is the sincerest form of flattery' defence in one of behringer's many trips to the courtroom.

There are some similarities of the design (font, use of grayscale and cyan for links, top menu, bottom 4 panels), but nothing I'd never see on other web pages. That being said, the whole is more "Apple-like" than a couple of other manufacturers' websites I've looked at. But nothing close to a total ripoff. I've seen worse :-)

By the way, is it just me, or does the photo on the "Join us" panel have a wrong aspect ratio? It looks like it was expanded horizontally! Sloppy design or deliberate "low-budget" accent?

madtheory

The website similarity is weak at best. Let's not get carried away with dramatic Behringer bashing, it's been done to death. As savman suggested, how about a mature debate?

Actually, jimi, you may not have the correct facts...

Over on Sound on Sound there's a thread with some good info. Not referenced, but it appears that Behringer only ever copied one circuit, and that was the Aphex Exciter which is a very specific type of circuit anyway. Their desks may look like Mackies, but actually it's not possible to copyright the layout or appearance of a desk. What is illegal is passing off your product using someone else's good name, and they just about avoided doing that. Doesn't that happen with the Strat and the Les Paul all the time?!?

So the only successful lawsuit against them was the Aphex one, the rest appears to be internet mythology.

Generally speaking, given the price, it's churlish to complain about Behringer. It's all quite good value for money, just use your noggin and don't buy based on price alone!

Finally, I think it's good that KT and Midas have this financial muscle behind them. The most likely outcome is that they will continue as before.

madtheory

To add to the list of good Behringer stuff:

The micro headphone amp, sounds even better than the rack one.
The UltraCurve, super duper for PA use.
The rackmount mixers are actually excellent for line level stuff such as keyboards and synth modules.

The Truth monitors- very nice sound, good for a hi fi! Don't mix on them though, very poor transient response, will drive you mad.

ZV Yoda

madtheory wrote: »

Generally speaking, given the price, it's churlish to complain about Behringer. It's all quite good value for money, just use your noggin and don't buy based on price alone!

+1

While I'm just a consumer/hobbyist, I've never understood the contempt for Behringer. They are what they are - cheap & cheerful. All industries need their Behringers (low end) as well as their Focusrites (mid range) and Neves (high end).

Behringer... "Designed in Germany, made in China"
Apple... "Designed in California, made in China"
Nokia... "Designed in Finland, made in China"

For most corporations, there's little or no difference in their maufacturing strategies. I've never been to a Behringer manufacturing site, but I have been to plenty of others (including lots of the big name computer/consumer electronics manufacturers)... bottom line, when you visit these plants (most are in China), unless the company name is above the door, you'd be very hard pressed to tell the difference from one factory to the other.

In many, many cases, you'll find that your well know high street brand name electric/electronic equipment is produced side by side with the "cheapo" brands... I don't just mean in the same country... I'm talking about the same people on the same production lines in the same factories... using 95% of the exact same components. The 5% components that are different?... generally the stuff that's visible to the consumer (badges, front plates, bezels etc)

kfoltman

madtheory wrote: »

The micro headphone amp, sounds even better than the rack one.

The Miniamp or the HA400?

old gregg

back a few years ago when I started doing live work again and money was tres tight I bought a BCA2000 as an audio interface to hook up to my 2nd hand P3 lappy. The drivers were ropey but it got me going again and I used it right up to and including playing St. Fin Barres cathedral in Cork in 2005. It did the job wonderfully. The thing has since been handed on to a friend who's broke and starting out and he loves it. Great bit of kit for the price and I was glad to have it.

I wish I could say the same for an impulse buy of the cheapo HPS5000 headphones I bought to take travelling on a field recording trip. O dear, I'd like to flog the clown who came up with that design. They never even left the house.

Mataguri

Theres also the FCB1010 midi floorboard. Very solid construction, mine has taken a beating over the years and still performs flawlessly. Also can be easily modded

Savman

jimi_t wrote: »

You see the bit you took the bother to quote but not read.
I agree about the rambling - especially when I've made the exact same point, only that I've gone so far as to narrow the 'number of decent units' down to 6 or so.

In your opinion/experience. I've had €6k worth of Crown 'touring' amplification fail on me, so never again will I buy into this horsesh*t badge mentality. Once bitten, twice shy, you could say.

Not sure why you're so wound up about Behringer stuff, but I think this statement is quite accurate:

jtsuited wrote:

People give behringer a hard time. A lot of people automatically presume that because of it's price it must be totally sh1te, but that's more of a reflection of the person's lack of understanding of how manufacturing economics works than anything else.

Ironic that most of today's electronics have Chinese origins, maybe Uli was ahead of the market?

woodsdenis

ZV Yoda wrote: »

+1


Apple... "Designed in California, made in China"

Apple... "Designed in California, made in Cork" true for a lot of Euro stuff. Probably assembled in Cork would be more accurate.

Behringer is certainly cheap and some of it is ****. With the amount of stuff they produce it is impossible to criticize all of it. If that is all you can afford then buy it, I would always advise people to see what is possible for
20/30% more and maybe get something better. There is very good stuff out there in the medium price range at this time deals can be done.

I certainly would buy the real Mackie desk over the Behringer for example.
The price difference is not huge and with the Mackie at least you get a tried and tested product.

Savman

woodsdenis wrote: »

I certainly would buy the real Mackie desk over the Behringer for example.
The price difference is not huge and with the Mackie at least you get a tried and tested product.

Interesting, because Mackie have their share of problems. Their live gear has a terribly poor rep since they supposedly moved manufacturing to China. Also the TT24 digital desk (attempt) is fairly glitchy from what I've heard.

But I guess it's not as much fun to badmouth Loud Technologies, cos they have EAW and Ampeg and they're "cool" :rolleyes:

woodsdenis

Savman wrote: »

Interesting, because Mackie have their share of problems. Their live gear has a terribly poor rep since they supposedly moved manufacturing to China. Also the TT24 digital desk (attempt) is fairly glitchy from what I've heard.

But I guess it's not as much fun to badmouth Loud Technologies, cos they have EAW and Ampeg and they're "cool" :rolleyes:

I am not saying mackie are perfect by a long shot, I was giving an example.
I am talking about the analogue/ Prodigy/ desks that they blatantly ripped off the look of. In that instance the original was vastly superior.

ZV Yoda

woodsdenis wrote: »

Apple... "Designed in California, made in Cork" true for a lot of Euro stuff. Probably assembled in Cork would be more accurate.

You’re right Denis... that’s true for Apple Computer... but not for iPhone/iPod... they're made by a huge manufacturing company in China (most people will never have heard of this manufacturing company, but they also make most of HP’s stuff as well as a huge amount of other well known consumer electronic stuff)

...that's my point really... Behringer don't make any bones about their manufacturing model... but you probably won't find too many references on Apple’s website to the fact that Apple outsource a lot of their manufacturing. While Apple’s designs are great... the reality of life is that their manufacturing strategy is the same as every other Corporation… “build ‘em wherever it’s cheapest to do so”. The only reason any manufacturers are still assembling computers in Europe is beacuse it get's expensive to ship bulky produce in from China - especially when fuel prices are on the increase.

Obviously very high end boutique manufacturers are less concerned with manufacturing costs, so this logic doesn’t apply to them

kfoltman

Mackies and Soundcrafts do have their share of problems:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/archive/index.php/t-1644028.html

Also, for example, let's assume I want to buy a small 8-input mixer. A cheapest Mackie price is 189 euro (Thomann) comparing to 66 for a Behringer. Is the difference in design, components and manufacturing quality worth a 3x price increase? Not to me. I'd get a more noticable quality and usability improvement from investing in some furniture and cable management stuff (to avoid ground hum from power leads nearby, unfortunately this is a tradeoff between ergonomics, aesthetics, sound quality and cost).

jimi_t

madtheory wrote: »

Actually, jimi, you may not have the correct facts...Not referenced, but it appears that Behringer only ever copied one circuit...desks may look like Mackies, but actually it's not possible to copyright the layout or appearance of a desk.

Ok, there's the crux of the argument. I never said that they ripped off PCBs; what I said was they develop a vary similar chassis/layout to a competing product, completely skimp on the components affecting the signal path, and try to pass it off as viable competition for something three times the price. It may look like a duck and feel like a duck but it certainly doesn't quack like one. This is what I don't like about them.

Generally speaking, given the price, it's churlish to complain about Behringer. It's all quite good value for money, just use your noggin and don't buy based on price alone!

I don't see it as churlish. Just because they're cheap doesn't mean that quality control or component quality can go out the window. I can excuse them a lot at their price point, but even so most of their stuff I've used/seen is just diabolical - for simliar money you can get a way better. The few things they bothered to develop themselves, like their MIDI gear, is absolutely fantastic.

Savman wrote:

Not sure why you're so wound up about Behringer stuff...

:rolleyes:

@Woodsdennis - You've got what I'm on about
@old gregg - I would never *ever* gig with a BCA2000 or something of similar quality. Maybe it's just an idealogical difference. Are you doing ambient/lo-fi/leftfield stuff?

madtheory

jimi_t wrote: »

I never said that they ripped off PCBs

I never said you did, I was just clarifying where the accusations of rip off arose... anyway, how much originality can one reasonably expect in a mixing desk layout? The answer is not much, or you risk making it unsaleable! Plus, it was hardly a "competitor" given the price differential with the Mackie.

Anyway, like I said, don't purchase based on price alone. Churlish might be the wrong word, but in terms of price nothing Behringer makes is a rip off. Given the price, griping about the quality is not logical.

Small point, but there's no Apple manufacturing in Cork any more, just a small assembly line doing the titanium boxes. The main thing is guarantee repair and the call centre. The Applestore ships from there also. And they still have horses grazing outside the door!

SprostonGreen

I dont want to hijack this thread but I'm thinking of getting a keyboard practice amp and there is a Behringer option in there. Is it advisable to stay clear?


Here are the options.

jimi_t

SprostonGreen wrote: »

I dont want to hijack this thread but I'm thinking of getting a keyboard practice amp and there is a Behringer option in there. Is it advisable to stay clear?


Here are the options.

The Behringer amps aren't too bad - they're usually rebranded Harley Benton or similar. The only thing I'd be wary of would be those digital effects making **** of your tone. However, in this case, out of all those I'd definitely go for the Roland CUBE - they're a fantastic line of amps and can take a drop down a couple of flights of stairs in their stride (My microcube survived a fall of nearly two stories onto concrete).

SprostonGreen

jimi_t wrote: »

My microcube survived a fall of nearly two stories onto concrete.

Rock n'Roll!

jimi_t

SprostonGreen wrote: »

Rock n'Roll!

The black plastic corner support that goes over the Tolex cracked and the battery cover went flying off never to be found again - otherwise it's all gravy .

studiorat

I suppose it all depends on why you are buying the gear. I try and avoid buying studio kit as much as possible these days. However 99% of the time I wouldn't touch Behringer stuff with a stick.

Why? Well my experience with their ADA8000 for instance, well, it's pre-amps fart at the sniff of a difficult transient. I measured the clock on two of these units, one was 44.1kHz the other was 44.0khz.Which is fine if it's a pitch shifter you're after....

Their microphones, some of which actually sound quiet good are liable to break down if plugged in or out with the phantom power turned on. I know you're not meant to do that but let's face it we all do now and again.

So all in all I've found the gear liable to failure quite easily and inconsistent. Personally, I'd expect to be replacing leaky caps if the gear was on all the time but certainly not in the first 5 or 6 years of the gears lifespan.

As a professional user, when I buy a piece of hardware I expect it to be working in 10 years time. And that's the difference, Behringer is disposable gear. Use it for two or three years and buy the next new version. Which is fine if you need something to work for a while or every now and again.

Quiggers

wouldn't gig with a bca2000? why not? Its got a power supply built in so no grounding problems for starters.
their all just the same generic chips lumped into a box,
as mackie proved when they hacked their onyx mixer to run
protools, the software looks, sees the same texas instruments usb / firewire chip and driver, connected to a generic analogue devices AD/DA chip, says woohoo and gets on with it.
no audio manufacturer is going to invest in creating custom microchips,
they just pick one and hope for the best.
its bad driver support that lets behringer down, and lexicon.

artvandulet

So does it mean that Bosch are just selling KT and Midas? What about Dynacord, EV etc???

Quiggers

anything that isn't boutique, will use off the shelf chips, bought for as cheap as possible and thrown into a standard amp topology, might stretch the budget and use a valve, but that'll be an underdriven 12AX7. With soundcards, the clock makes a huge difference, so a quality card will clean up the clock to reduce jitter. a budget card will just make do, but if you're piping it through an ab class power amp then thats the least of your worries. a soundcard is a simple ad/ da device, easy to build, pcm is like the idiots intro to digital electronics. So its down to clock rates and jitter rejection to tell the differenct between a behringer firewire card or a motu or the latest firewire pornstars, apogee.

your dyna powermixer might have a class D, a relitively new technology which hasn't paid off on its RnD so is still quite expensive, bit like an intel i7 processor, once the elitists have bought enough to pay off the RnD, the manufacturers will drop the price.

EV might have neutrik connectors but the driver will use a faily standard chassis and motor, all put together by some one in the 1st world or a developing country instead of a factory in china.

Hand made, and individually tested neumann mics will obviously get more care at the manufacturing stage than a generic chineese roll it, stuff it and badge it mic. And for ten times the money you can hear the difference. but you can make quality recordings with the chinesse mic, madonna might complain it smells like one of her orphans but it will convert audio to volts without bags of hiss or ringing resonances. for the money they're mindboglingly good, better than a shure sm58 .

Bet these forums would have a lot less people on them if brands like behringer, alesis, tapco, m-audio, numark, esi, squire, farida etc didn't strive to give value for money by using the economies of scale used in every other industry in the world. Cant imagine neve, ssl etc offering starter packs.
And when behringer first came out people used to snigger about mackie making cheap crap mixers, only good for demo work etc, which equally was a load of snobbery.

studiorat

Quiggers wrote: »

no audio manufacturer is going to invest in creating custom microchips,
they just pick one and hope for the best.
.

Except Yamaha of course... And maybe Fairchild? Phillips? Panasonic/Ramsa?

kfoltman

studiorat wrote: »

Except Yamaha of course...

Infamous AWM2 chips? (make once, milk for 2 decades?)

Quiggers

all them corporations have different companies for different markets, open up a phillips dvd played and you'll find chips from other companies, cause they were cheaper than phillips own one.

fairchild semiconductors is completly unattached to fairchild audio, they're so seperate that they dont fight over the name, which is owned by uad.
And fairchild compressors are the kind of boutique equipement i mentioned in my last post. They fetch around $30,000, i doubt behringer are aiming for that price bracket.
There's also a fairchild sports who do a rather dashing polo range.

madtheory

Welcome to misinformation city...

madtheory

Quiggers wrote: »

no audio manufacturer is going to invest in creating custom microchips,
they just pick one and hope for the best.

...add Roland, Korg, Lexicon, Alesis...all make their own, open their boxes, you'll see...

Where do you get your info anyway Quiggers??

Quiggers

expand!

kfoltman

madtheory wrote: »

...add Roland, Korg, Lexicon, Alesis...all make their own, open their boxes, you'll see...

They don't make their own opamps or D/A converters anyhow.

It'd be quite difficult for Alesis to implement a protocol like ADAT without using custom chips (well, maybe programmable stuff like Xilinx, but they weren't as popular as they are now when ADAT has been created). Similarly, Lexicon had to use custom ICs because the functionality needed to implement a reverb efficiently is hard to achieve using general purpose chips. Samplers or romplers - same thing, the memory bandwidth requirement is pretty much unique to this class of devices.

On the other hand, open a Nord Lead or Access Virus or Novation Supernova and you'll just find a bunch of Motorola DSP563xx series generic signal processors. Or take Tascam US-428, a notch or two above Behringer stuff: some general-purpose microcontroller (slightly faster 8051 clone with USB functionality bolted on? not 100% sure about it), a programmable FPGA chip and a couple of A/D / D/A converters - all off-the-shelf.

So, Quiggers is obviously exaggerating but still, the custom chips are not that common, are only used where absolutely necessary and cost sh*tload to design. And then the same chip design is usually put in several products made for different markets. Example: Yamaha AWM2 synthesizer chip design used in the whole PSR series, CS-1x/2x/6x/6r, QY-70/100, Tenori-On and probably other devices I don't know of or can't remember.

madtheory

Quiggers wrote: »

expand!

Is that a book, a website, or a misunderstanding?

Whether a company makes their on chips or not is no guide to quality of the product. Why would say, Lexicon build their own op amps, when say Analog Devices have already learned everything there is to know about that device, given its incredibly wide usage outside of audio? Same goes for any number of LSI type devices.

Quiggers

it was bad timing, a reply to your misinformation city post.

the chip thing was to show that most digital gear is very similar on the inside.
no matter whose badge is on it. i also mentioned circuit topologies, these are old hat at this stage, push pull, longtailed pair etc. and they work so no-one needs to re-invent the wheel for these, the valve stage novelty also seems to be wearing off but i've noticed more pre-amps with transformer inputs, even a choice of brand lundall, jensen, sowter etc, it seems to be the new fashion in audio tech.

I'm by no means an expert, a geeky enthusiast maybe, did 3 years audio tech at salford in the uk and i'm currently studying for crimbo exams for 2nd year electronic engineering at LIT, plus i've no life and read geeky articles on websites. Read SOS for kicks too.
Sad! i know!

On a plus note, i'm learning to make VST's in C++, all the hot chicks will digg that and want me.