Possible Garda Strike

mrmanire

I just thought I'd start this thread with the outside possibility of a Garda strike and thus a constitutional crisis on the horizon. The Gardai actually violating the law of the land and thus the constitution. National shame?

Misty Chaos

Jesus, the vision I have of an nationwide all out super strike seem to be coming to fruition! :eek:

More seriously, I don't know what to think about this. One one hand its against the law as you said on the other hand, I think its about time the front line Garda stood up to the system and all its corruption that is recking within it.

2010 is going to be an interesting year, to say the least.

--amadeus--

Any member of AGS who strikes should be tried and if convicted they should be expelled from the force.

Plenty of people would be glad to take a Guards wages (with a 6% paycut). Everyone was happy enough to run with "market forces" when times were good, where are they now that times are bad...

Firefox10

I think the stability of the state is possibly entering a very real and dangerous phase. It's quite unbelievable that it's getting down to this.

Thinkingaboutit

Isn't this just PJ Stone winding up some people, including a government that has shown itself fairly spineless and easy to panic. They might 'work to rule' with something or other, but probably not.

mrmanire

Fair enough but there is a massive legal aspect to this. If Gardai strike they are violating the Garda Siochana act and thus ultimately the constitution. Would a Garda's power of arrest be valid after such an act? Would the state even be legitimate if it was to let a strike have any impact upon negotiations. Awful constitutional and legal quagmire there.

It's not going to happen but the prospect of the army even for a day performing the job of providing basic civil security is quite a scary one, actually far scarier than the thought of a bank going bust.

Do the Gardai deserve better conditions and not have their pay slashed; well open for discussion.

Should the Gardai have the right to partake in industrial action; this undermines the role of the state and thus no.

Do they have this right. No.

Therefore not an inch of credibility should be given to a possible strike or even talk of a strike.

Thinkingaboutit

Isn't this the section from the Garda Siochana Act 2005?

59.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he or she induces, or
does any act calculated to induce, any member of the Garda Sı´ocha
´na to withhold his or her services or to commit a breach of
discipline.
(2) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding \3,000 or
imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or
both, or
(b) on conviction on indictment, to a fine not exceeding
\50,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years
or both.

PJ Stone is trolling, but yes the matter is interesting. The pay issue needs to be discussed, perhaps folding some allowances into pay. There are a fair few fairly rickety Garda cars and motorcycles (a Kawasaki GT550 looking older than the '01 on the plate for example), and if pennypinching becomes the order of the day, there could be safety issues. I hope the government squelches this talk, otherwise they look pathetic, or even more pathetic.

brianthebard

mrmanire wrote: »

Should the Gardai have the right to partake in industrial action

Yes, they are citizens too.

mrmanire

brianthebard wrote: »

Yes, they are citizens too.

We are all born citizens but we are not all born Gardai. One chooses to become a member and thus has to accept all of the benefits and also restrictions associated with their chosen profession.

When Gardai join they take an oath to uphold the constitution; if the Gardai exercise their "right" as citizens to strike, they are thus breaking this oath and are as far as I am concerned no longer Gardai and therefore lack either authority and legitimacy as officers of the law.

gnxx

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Isn't this just PJ Stone winding up some people, including a government that has shown itself fairly spineless and easy to panic. They might 'work to rule' with something or other, but probably not.

It is the unions. They are also playing on the fact that the majority of people support and respect the front line public service employees. The unions have decided that this is the "marketable" face of the public sector.

Let's face it -- you are going to take 13,000 gardai striking more seriously than say the 29,000 support/admin staff in the HSE.

jhegarty

brianthebard wrote: »

Yes, they are citizens too.

And as such they have ever right to hand in their notice.

dinhanoi

jhegarty wrote: »

And as such they have ever right to hand in their notice.

So lets have a total upheaval of a country's constitution and social stability , so the Garda Siochána can exercise their basic right as a citizen , and hand in their notice , voiding their oath to the country, because of a 6% pay cut.

This is the attitude that is bringing this country to its knees.

What we need is a Leader to come out and say what is wrong, and say how it will be fixed, no matter how serious it may be.

The media are driving this Public vs Private Sector Quarrel.

The most significant action by Brian Cowen thus far was cancelling the Talks with Public Trade unions.

dinhanoi

So lets have a total upheaval of a country's constitution and social stability , so the Garda Siochána can exercise their basic right as a citizen , and hand in their notice , voiding their oath to the country, because of a 6% pay cut.

This is the attitude that is bringing this country to its knees.

What we need is a Leader to come out and say what is wrong, and say how it will be fixed, no matter how serious it may be.

The media are driving this Public vs Private Sector Quarrel.

The most significant action by Brian Cowen thus far was cancelling the Talks with Public Trade unions.

congo_90

6% pay cut is that all they're bitching about? :eek:

Before I lost my job i had gone through 11% and then another 8% on top of that! If people can survive on the dole then im sure the ags can survive too on a lower wage. its a recession. everyone has to take a pay cut. either deal with it or join the que.

PuterMan

congo_90 wrote: »

6% pay cut is that all they're bitching about? :eek:

Before I lost my job i had gone through 11% and then another 8% on top of that! If people can survive on the dole then im sure the ags can survive too on a lower wage. its a recession. everyone has to take a pay cut. either deal with it or join the que.

Bearing in mind also that at least some things are going down in cost then 6% seems reasonable and as congo_90 rightly says - if we can survive on the dole (just) then they can on a 6% pay cut.

jmayo

Misty Choas wrote: »

Jesus, the vision I have of an nationwide all out super strike seem to be coming to fruition! :eek:

More seriously, I don't know what to think about this. One one hand its against the law as you said on the other hand, I think its about time the front line Garda stood up to the system and all its corruption that is recking within it.

Stood up to the system ?
Yet another that believes it is some mythical system that is screwing us. :rolleyes:
We are the system, the front line Gardaí are the system as well.

Some of that corruption is the bloody front line Garda.
You know the type of thing like dropping into a pub and getting free booze or they will continously raid the place.
That is corruption.
Were the schengagains up in Donegal not front line detectives ?

mrmanire wrote: »

...
Do the Gardai deserve better conditions and not have their pay slashed; well open for discussion.
...

No they don't deserve better pay and conditions, they don't even deserve to have their pay maintained when all other public servants are expected to take a pay cut.

What they do deserve are more collegues on the beat, better cars, better protective equipment, better computer access, a legal system that doesn't fall over backwards considering the perps as victims and thus allow danagerous criminals out on the streets through the revolving courthosue doors.

brianthebard wrote: »

Yes, they are citizens too.

Ah, but they are citizens with a difference.
They are supposed to uphold the law of the land and are not meant to strike or take political stands.
If they do so they ARE breaking the law.
Letting Police strike would be akin to having the army go on a "go slow" during wartime.

bmaxi

One question. If Gardaí go on strike and you don't drive a car, will you notice?

jimmmy

Pat Kenny has promised a feature on his radio programme later this morning on how most Gardai have pensions which makes them millionaires when they retire.

Zambia

Jesus your sig scares the Bollixs of me

gandalf

As I said in the thread in the Irish Economy forum. The leaders of the GRA should be arrested and made face the full rigour of the law because they are inducing Gardai to with hold their service to the country.

They should face the maximum penalty of 5 years and a fine of 50k Euro as a lesson to all the other unions stirring up mischief.

jimmmy

On the Pat Kenny show now they are talking about the 57 ( yes , 57 ) different allowances they are entitled to..... very interesting
eg availibility allowance of between 8 to 11 k a year if you are available outside normal hours, ; gaeltacht allowance ; aran islands allowance ; boot allowance , plain clothes allowance , dog-handlers allowance, lanzarote allowance, etc ...I am typing as its being called out

FTA69

Personally I find the whole prospect gas. If turbulence ever erupts in this country between working-class people whether in the form of marches, strikes etc it'll be the cops on the frontline dealing with that; and now the law-enforcement types are the ones threatening to break the law that they signed up to enforce! A small bit of a paradox to say the least.

Joining the cops is a small bit like joining the military, you're explicitly consenting to be the armed wing (of sorts) of the state etc, and with that decision comes responsibilities as well as rights. So no sympathy here from me anyway.

Then again I've never been the biggest fan of John Law so perhaps I'm a small bit biased.

prinz

jimmmy wrote: »

Pat Kenny has promised a feature on his radio programme later this morning on how most Gardai have pensions which makes them millionaires when they retire.

I have seen my old fellas pension. He could get the pension for as many years as he worked and still not get close to a million.

SARZY

In the media we see Mr Stone threatening the State and at the same time admitting that No legal advice was sought by them before they made this threat.

Either Stone is a total fool or he knows that the political bosses of the day are a walkover.

Then we see the Minister on TV pleading with these potential State wreckers to consider their position and pleading with them to consider all the 'history' of the Force and the past members,dead and retired, and pleading with them Not to forget how well they have been looked after in the past and clearly implying that they wont be forgotten about in the future.

Stone is not a fool.

The Government are weak and a walkover.

jimmmy

prinz wrote: »

I have seen my old fellas pension. He could get the pension for as many years as he worked and still not get close to a million.

Average pay in the Gardai across all ages / grades is 60,000. The average salary they get on retirement is obviously greater than that , due to promotion , age etc.
They can retire after 30 years service - many are retiring now in their late forties / early fifties. The tax free gratuity is 18 months salary at retirement, and the pension is 50% of retiring salary. Nice pension if ya can get it.;)

FTA69

jimmmy wrote: »

Average pay in the Gardai across all ages / grades is 60,000. The average salary they get on retirement is obviously greater than that , due to promotion , age etc.
They can retire after 30 years service - many are retiring now in their late forties / early fifties. The tax free gratuity is 18 months salary at retirement, and the pension is 50% of retiring salary. Nice pension if ya can get it.;)

Not to mention all the income from being a landlord and various other double jobs.

prinz

jimmmy wrote: »

Average pay in the Gardai across all ages / grades is 60,000. The average salary they get on retirement is obviously greater than that , due to promotion , age etc.
They can retire after 30 years service - many are retiring now in their late forties / early fifties. The tax free gratuity is 18 months salary at retirement, and the pension is 50% of retiring salary. Nice pension if ya can get it.;)

My da retired in 1997. He was a sergeant. He did 36 years "exemplary service" as per the piece of paper he got. He'd be well over 100 before he got close to earning a million from his pension, assuming he didn't spend a penny along the way of course.

irish_bob

PuterMan wrote: »

Bearing in mind also that at least some things are going down in cost then 6% seems reasonable and as congo_90 rightly says - if we can survive on the dole (just) then they can on a 6% pay cut.

its common knowledge that a huge number of guards own second properties , hell , guards have been landlord long before it became a staple of irish life , they cant take a pay cut as they have financial commitments on theese investment properties

brianthebard

jimmmy wrote: »

Average pay in the Gardai across all ages / grades is 60,000. The average salary they get on retirement is obviously greater than that , due to promotion , age etc.
They can retire after 30 years service - many are retiring now in their late forties / early fifties. The tax free gratuity is 18 months salary at retirement, and the pension is 50% of retiring salary.

So you agree that the millionaire statement you made earlier was completely baseless?

irish_bob

jimmmy wrote: »

Pat Kenny has promised a feature on his radio programme later this morning on how most Gardai have pensions which makes them millionaires when they retire.

they let you out of jail i see jimmy , BOARDS jail i mean

gandalf

brianthebard wrote: »

So you agree that the millionaire statement you made earlier was completely baseless?

I think he is basing his comment on this article in todays Independent.

THEY may not realise it, but most gardai retire as millionaires. This is because the cost of buying a garda's pension on the open market would amount to €1.1m, figures calculated by pensions experts show.

JonathanAnon

well it's pretty typical of sabre rattling of all the unions. Let them at it if they want, the cuts have to be made simple as that. No matter what the repercussions. Last week, Brian Cowan finally showed a bit of backbone by saying no that ridiculous fudge put on the table by David Begg. (Though I'm not sure if would have showed backbone if he wasnt under so much pressure from the backbenchers) The government needs to stand up to all public sector unions and get rid of ridiculously overgenerous work practices which would never be allowed in the private sector.

I dont have a lot of respect for the guards because of a few incidents that I needed help with over the last year, so my opinion regarding them is not favourable anyway. But I think other people who do have respect for the guards will lose it if they strike, especially if they deliberately and knowingly break the laws that they are mean to be upholding.

And I would give them the same advice as I give other public sector workers. If you're not happy with the conditions, then do something else. They were happy enough to accept the pay increases brought in by benchmarking in the good times without any significant reforms. It is time the government enforced serious reforms to stop waste in all public bodies, quangos etc. We've listened to the unions for TOO LONG.

prinz

gandalf wrote: »

I think he is basing his comment on this article in todays Independent.

Except it's all hypothetical. Only applies to gardaí joining after 1995 and retiring on €52,000 odd. Who is retiring from the gardaí after 14 years on that salary? They then include the lump sum for 30 years service.... which would mean a garda retiring at the earliest in 2025. So why are we seeing soundbites like "all gardaí are millionaires when they retire". BS.

brianthebard

gandalf wrote: »

I think he is basing his comment on this article in todays Independent.

That is the worst example of numerical mix and match I've seen in a long time.

jimmmy

Most of the rest of the country ( those who pay their taxes to support the government ) cannot retire at 49 or 50, with a pension worth over a million.

jimmmy

irish_bob wrote: »

they let you out of jail i see jimmy , BOARDS jail i mean

Thats right:)

prinz

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the rest of the country ( those who pay their taxes to support the government ) cannot retire at 49 or 50, with a pension worth over a million.

Boo hoo. Should have joined AGS then*. :rolleyes: My da retired at 57 wasn't earning anything near €52,000 and his pension/lump sum is a lot less than what appears in that article. He never owned a second property. Had no 'second' jobs. etc. Should he take a cut?

*apparently. It's rubbish anyway.

brianthebard

jimmmy wrote: »

Most of the rest of the country ( those who pay their taxes to support the government ) cannot retire at 49 or 50, with a pension worth over a million.

Nor can the gardai based on the information you posted.

FlutterinBantam

Gardaí reps should be arrested and charged for stirring up this rubbish.

Public are not idiots and see that retiral at 50 on a full INDEX LINKED pension is a damn good deal.:eek:

have these people nothing better to do than stir up unrest in a country ,which due to collusion between left wing union leaders and an incompetent Govt. and right wing greedy bankers is spinning down the plughole.

Get a grip and get real.

dan_d

Why are people finding this so hard to understand?
We, as a country, are spending more than we are earning.
What's difficult about that?? The money is not there anymore.Move on.

FlutterinBantam

Everybody except those with jobs for life and big pensions understand that Danny boy.

jimmmy

prinz wrote: »

Boo hoo. Should have joined AGS then*. :rolleyes:

The lads I knew who joined it, were not the brightest at school, nor did they ever study all that hard. Believe it or not, some people were too ambitous than just to be Gardai ; besides, the school leavers of 30 years ago never dreamt if they joined the Garda they would be retiring now with a pension pot worth over a million

prinz wrote: »

My da retired at 57 wasn't earning anything near €52,000 and his pension/lump sum is a lot less than what appears in that article.

I do not know nor particularly want to know yours Dads personal circumstances. What Gardai do get however is the tax free gratuity of 18 months salary at retirement, and the pension is 50% of retiring salary.
Obviously not all Gardai earn the same ; the CSO average earnings of Gardai @ 60k a year is that ; average earnings.

prinz wrote: »

He never owned a second property. Had no 'second' jobs. etc. Should he take a cut?

It is not up to him to decide. The chances are he is getting considerably more being retired as his Gardai / govt pension , than the average industrial wage in the worlds superpower economy. Traditionally us in Ireland looked to the USA for good paying jobs - before the govt here started spending money like confetti. The average industrial wage in the USA is 41,000 dollars a year, just over 28,000 euro. And they do not get as many holidays as the Gardai. To put things in perspective, why should retired Gardai here get more for doing nothing than people in the USA get for working damn hard ?

gandalf

Jimmmy I don't see what you want to achieve by suggesting that the Gardai do nothing. I disagree with you totally on this. They do a hard job and I have no problem with them getting a better wage because of that. I know quite a few Gardai and they are on the whole intelligent people. Every job has idiots and they tend to get noticed a lot more than the silent majority who do their jobs well.

As I have said in other threads on this if the Government do not have the money to pay the wages then cuts have to be made no matter how deserving the particular sector is. The PS do not seem to realise this yet and I feel eventhough they say they know we are hitting desparate times the actual awareness on how serious things are has not hit home yet.

Another of our customers went into liquidation today, that is how we are realising things!

jimmmy

gandalf wrote: »

Jimmmy I don't see what you want to achieve by suggesting that the Gardai do nothing.

I never said "the Gardai do nothing." Far from it. I know a few of them quite well and one has even expressed views on Garda pay not that different to my own, but as he always said if the government are foolish enough to give it why would he not take it, "while its going."

TheNog

jimmmy wrote: »

On the Pat Kenny show now they are talking about the 57 ( yes , 57 ) different allowances they are entitled to..... very interesting
eg availibility allowance of between 8 to 11 k a year if you are available outside normal hours, ; gaeltacht allowance ; aran islands allowance ; boot allowance , plain clothes allowance , dog-handlers allowance, lanzarote allowance, etc ...I am typing as its being called out

The different allowances reflect the different needs of each job.

irish_bob wrote: »

its common knowledge that a huge number of guards own second properties , hell , guards have been landlord long before it became a staple of irish life , they cant take a pay cut as they have financial commitments on theese investment properties

What is this huge number you speak of? How many Gardai actually own second or more properties? It would be reasonable to say that some Gardai own second properties. Same as engineers, technicians, doctors etc etc

jimmmy

TheNog wrote: »

The different allowances reflect the different needs of each job.

Nice allowances if ye can get them. For the calibre of the people involved on average ( the average Guard is not as highly qualified or educated as an engineer or doctor,the 2 professions you mention, for example...people who would have studied harder at school on average, and for years in university ) 60k a year is excessive money, when you consider the perks eg big pension after 30 years. Being a Guard is not harder or more dangerous in Belmullet than in Birmingham or Berlin or Bordeau, so why is it paid more?

irish_bob

TheNog wrote: »

The different allowances reflect the different needs of each job.



What is this huge number you speak of? How many Gardai actually own second or more properties? It would be reasonable to say that some Gardai own second properties. Same as engineers, technicians, doctors etc etc

ive yet to hear a doctor or engineer say they cant take a pay cut because they have a second mortgage to pay , thier was a young,sh guard on newstalk yesterday say exactly this

gandalf

irish_bob wrote: »

ive yet to hear a doctor or engineer say they cant take a pay cut because they have a second mortgage to pay , thier was a young,sh guard on newstalk yesterday say exactly this

And what is stopping this youngish Garda from going to his bank and renegotiating his mortgages. Or engaging with MABS and getting them to intercede on his behalf?

At least he is still in a job and capable of paying something towards his mortgage, what about those out of work?

pah

From todays Irish Indo~


On retirement after 30 years, the garda is entitled to a tax-free lump sum of €79,233, and an annual pension of €26,411.

Ms Daly said the value of this retirement lump sum was €1.12m, of which the State would have contributed €1m.



What a Pile of ****



Yes it's a very good pension and if you live to be 85+ then you will have received 1,000,000 shiny euro over a 35 year period if you retired at 50. Does that mean I will retire in 27 years as a millionaire?


NO - It's more word twisting BULL****. It's like saying someone on 50k a year now is a millionaire based on the fact they will earn that over 20 years. ABSOLUTE COCK.



I am the first to say I have a decent Gross wage but after I pay out Tax, Pension Levy, Health Levy, Pension Contributions, Medical and Loans I have just under €200p.w.


My loans were to support the purchase of a home in an overinflated and unsustainable property market in June 07, possibly the absolute worst time to have bought a house. We won the bidding war on a property in a market that was still on the up. Within 18 months our house was worth 100k less. Now we don't plan on moving so it's not an issue. My point is the government has ****ed it all up.


I Don't have a second/holiday home I am not a landlord nor do I have any other source of income. We have a 4 bed semi a couple of 5 year old cars and 2 small kids. My Wife is on a decent wage and she covers the mortgage while I get the bills/shopping. Barely. We have no money to spare for anything.


More cuts only mean bad news to me, and I'm trying to look out for my familys welfare.


I don't support the idea of an all out strike and I don't think that will happen but some action has to be taken and I have to do what i can to protect my pay and conditions

Mr.Micro

What is so special about the Gardai? Too much lip service paid to them IMO. They are there to do a job, in many places in Ireland do very little, other places have to work hard. Overall though well paid for what they do and what qualifications they may have. Best that they not get above themselves.

Rb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What is so special about the Gardai? Too much lip service paid to them IMO. They are there to do a job, in many places in Ireland do very little, other places have to work hard. Overall though well paid for what they do and what qualifications they may have. Best that they not get above themselves.

Indeed.

I agree with what Gandalf said earlier in the thread, anyone striking or inducing the Gardai to strike should be arrested and tried to the very fullest extent of the law.

Examples have to be set, the people here through their Government representatives are meant to control this country, not some overpaid ex-brickies that run the workers mobs unions.