More PS-BS on Prime Time Tonight...

Darragh29

Just looking at Prime Time Investigates here...

A PS worker/apologist comes on and is giving several stupid excuses for why welfare fraud is so easy...

Go into any Superquinn supermarket in the country and you see staff clocking on and off by putting their hand into a scanner that clocks you in and out of work, no fraud possible, simple solution to a simple problem, your fingerprint is used as the basis for the fraud prevention system!

Now the only reason I can see, why a simple enough technological solution to a simple enough problem, cannot be decided upon and deployed without delay, is because staff are refusing to work with the technology, as is typically the case in the public sector where you have to agree every change with a unon before you can put something in place at work.

The problem again here is obvious, in 2009, we see ANTIQUATED systems of work in place with the absolute MINIMAL use of technology.

implausible

em, is this programme not about people defrauding the social welfare system?

Darragh29

deemark wrote: »

em, is this programme not about people defrauding the social welfare system?

Yeah it is and they have people here coming on making one apology after the next as to why it is so easy to defaud the system, one being, "we make over a million payments a week"...

All the more reason to cut down on fraud!!!

masteroftherealm

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just looking at Prime Time Investigates here...

A PS worker/apologist comes on and is giving several stupid excuses for why welfare fraud is so easy...

Go into any Superquinn supermarket in the country and you see staff clocking on and off by putting their hand into a scanner that clocks you in and out of work, no fraud possible, simple solution to a simple problem, your fingerprint is used as the basis for the fraud prevention system!

Now the only reason I can see, why a simple enough technological solution to a simple enough problem, cannot be decided upon and deployed without delay, is because staff are refusing to work with the technology, as is typically the case in the public sector where you have to agree every change with a unon before you can put something in place at work.

The problem again here is obvious, in 2009, we see ANTIQUATED systems of work in place with the absolute MINIMAL use of technology.

Ah yes all those public sector employees refusing to use technology that's not there how dare they refuse to use the imaginary technology that doesn't exist.
Its not a simple tech solutions its a huge massive one that would take years to implement on a technical level before any emplyees of the state even got to consider training/using it.

Rob67

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just looking at Prime Time Investigates here...

A PS worker/apologist comes on and is giving several stupid excuses for why welfare fraud is so easy...

Go into any Superquinn supermarket in the country and you see staff clocking on and off by putting their hand into a scanner that clocks you in and out of work, no fraud possible, simple solution to a simple problem, your fingerprint is used as the basis for the fraud prevention system!

Now the only reason I can see, why a simple enough technological solution to a simple enough problem, cannot be decided upon and deployed without delay, is because staff are refusing to work with the technology, as is typically the case in the public sector where you have to agree every change with a unon before you can put something in place at work.

The problem again here is obvious, in 2009, we see ANTIQUATED systems of work in place with the absolute MINIMAL use of technology.

Here we go again... a perfectly valid opportunity to point out where the Public Service can make important changes and improve efficiencies and instead we get histrionics.

deemark wrote: »

em, is this programme not about people defrauding the social welfare system?

Yes, unfortunately, some people can't see the wood for the trees...:rolleyes:

Kristopherus

Darragh29, do you work for the Indo, by any chance? Your attitude to the PS is very similar:eek::eek::eek:

Darragh29

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Ah yes all those public sector employees refusing to use technology that's not there how dare they refuse to use the imaginary technology that doesn't exist.
Its not a simple tech solutions its a huge massive one that would take years to implement on a technical level before any emplyees of the state even got to consider training/using it.

Doesn't exist?!?!?!?!? I'll personally go down to Superquinn tomorrow and take a picture of it in operation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just in the meantime, you can check out the suppliers website here:

http://www.asi.ie/case_studies_sector.php?sector=Retail

Check out the case studies page where you can see how Lifestyle sports have deployed the technology, along with other Irish customers...

Yet again the attitude and mindset is the same, "no we can't", "the technology doesn't exist", "why don't you just p*ss off and hassle someone else"...

Darragh29

Kristopherus wrote: »

Darragh29, do you work for the Indo, by any chance? Your attitude to the PS is very similar:eek::eek::eek:

No I don't. A 5 year old could work out how to fix this problem of people being able to fill out a form and get any number of PPS numbers. If you look at this set up and don't see a problem, (and also an obvious solution), then I put it to you that there is something wrong with your analysis of the situation, and not with mine...

masteroftherealm

You honestly think that the system that Superquinn use can be used in the Governmental realm? You have no idea what your talking about mate, none whatsoever!!!
Its a frigging retail system!!!

Jarren

OMG....One of the guys defrauded SW by 39k and he was given 2k fine+5 months suspended sentence...WTF:eek:

implausible

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah it is and they have people here coming on making one apology after the next as to why it is so easy to defaud the system, one being, "we make over a million payments a week"...

All the more reason to cut down on fraud!!!

My point was that the programme is about people defrauding the system and you've managed to make it about the Public Service in this thread:rolleyes:

ardmacha

While there is scope for improvement in social welfare, people working down can only implement the rules passed by the legislators. No point blaming the foot soldiers for the decision of generals.

Darragh29

masteroftherealm wrote: »

You honestly think that the system that Superquinn use can be used in the Governmental realm? You have no idea what your talking about mate, none whatsoever!!!
Its a frigging retail system!!!

The backbone of the system is a person recognition system based on the submission of a fingerprint. The point is that the technology exists to resolve this issue very easily.

Best thing you could do is check out the link I put up, familiarise yourself with the technology and come back when you are familar with it like I am...

whatnext

masteroftherealm wrote: »

You honestly think that the system that Superquinn use can be used in the Governmental realm? You have no idea what your talking about mate, none whatsoever!!!
Its a frigging retail system!!!

Eye scanners are frequently used on labour intensive construction sites, they are directly linked to the payrole software.

Please tell me why this system or one simillar could not be adapted going forward.

It does exist and it is in use, and it is off the shelf technology

Jarren

We have the winner
A woman owns SW 130K
How did she manage to do that?

masteroftherealm

Darragh29 wrote: »

The backbone of the system is a person recognition system based on the submission of a fingerprint. The point is that the technology exists to resolve this issue very easily.

Best thing you could do is check out the link I put up, familiarise yourself with the technology and come back when you are familar with it like I am...

Have you hands on experience with Access Control Systems?

Have you a working knowledge of the Data Protection Act?

Did you know it would take a referendum to introduce such an identity managment system in Ireland?

If your answer to the above is no then you have less experience than me in this area and should believe me when I tell you, your way way off the mark and have no practical basis to make the suggestions that you are. I am telling you from a professional point of view that the system you are proposing would have a minimum lead time of 24 months, would require legislation to be passed, would need to be put to tender, then a system be developed and trialed. It would have to be passed through the European court of Human rights as did the system in the UK. I can keep going as to why your wrong if you wish?

BobbyD10

As each month/week passes by we again see where more money from the boom has gone too.

gandalf

This program highlights the wonderful service that we get from our Public Service. Widespread Fraud and then no real pursuit of the full amount paid out to the perpetrators of these crimes.

Why should I bother paying taxes anymore to allow defrauding spongers to steal and to allow inept employees to stay in jobs they obviously cannot do?

achtungbarry

Is there anything you don't turn into an opportunity to bash the public sector ?

Darragh29

ardmacha wrote: »

While there is scope for improvement in social welfare, people working down can only implement the rules passed by the legislators. No point blaming the foot soldiers for the decision of generals.

Well the foot soldiers seem to have a veto on every aspect of public policy at the moment. We have a track record in this country of public sector workers obstructing change at every opportunity...

Why should a union even be consulted on something as important as this???

Rob67

Darragh29 wrote: »

Doesn't exist?!?!?!?!? I'll personally go down to Superquinn tomorrow and take a picture of it in operation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just in the meantime, you can check out the suppliers website here:

http://www.asi.ie/case_studies_sector.php?sector=Retail

Check out the case studies page where you can see how Lifestyle sports have deployed the technology, along with other Irish customers...

Yet again the attitude and mindset is the same, "no we can't", "the technology doesn't exist", "why don't you just p*ss off and hassle someone else"...

Yay! Valid argument! Good system, but to enact it would require some persuasion, technology is great to solve most issues but it can lead to some (almost) career ending decisions (anyone remember PPARS? E-voting machines?). I agree, if it were used it would help resolve fraud issues to a large extent, but it would need to be overseen by qualified persons and not by politicians who want a vanity project to append their name to.

achtungbarry

11 billion to the banks that screwed up.

54 billion to NAMA

................ and we go nuts over 1.3 billion in cuts (that I freely admit and accept are needed) to the PS. (Yes I am in the PS and I have horns protruding from my temples. I also sleep all day when I should be working and then go home to roll around in my piles of money. Then I find some puppies to kick :rolleyes:)

You sir have been played whether you think it or not.

They want us arguing over this 1.3 billion and keep our attention off the 65 billion to the banks and NAMA and they have succeeded.

Played like fools.

gandalf

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well the foot soldiers seem to have a veto on every aspect of public policy at the moment. We have a track record in this country of public sector workers obstructing change at every opportunity...

Why should a union even be consulted on something as important as this???

Because we have a leadership vacuum at the moment. The problem is a vacuum tends to get filled eventually.....

Rob67

Darragh29 wrote: »

Well the foot soldiers seem to have a veto on every aspect of public policy at the moment. We have a track record in this country of public sector workers obstructing change at every opportunity...

Why should a union even be consulted on something as important as this???

Evidence to this point of view? And where did the unions come into this?

nice_guy80

because if large changes are implemented, staff have to be retrained, re rostered, re deployed?

anyway, if the STATE had put in place the proper controls - ie the Fianna Fail appointed then a lot of this fraud could have been avoided

how much money has been stolen from the country over the past 8-9 years??? by both Irish and non Irish fraudsters

Darragh29

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Have you hands on experience with Access Control Systems?

Have you a working knowledge of the Data Protection Act?

Did you know it would take a referendum to introduce such an identity managment system in Ireland?

If your answer to the above is no then you have less experience than me in this area and should believe me when I tell you, your way way off the mark and have no practical basis to make the suggestions that you are. I am telling you from a professional point of view that the system you are proposing would have a minimum lead time of 24 months, would require legislation to be passed, would need to be put to tender, then a system be developed and trialed. It would have to be passed through the European court of Human rights as did the system in the UK. I can keep going as to why your wrong if you wish?

So how come I can see it in operation in Superquinn so if we need a referendum before we can use it???

How come we have biometric passports and state ID cards and such items with images of our faces on them???

If we need a referendum to introduce this beyond reproach, then so be it, let us have one, better than 2/10 welfare payments being made to people who have made a fraudulent application.

I also have a working knowledge of the Data Protection Act and I fail to see the relevance to the current subject matter. If I want a driving licence, I have to submit a photo of my head and face. If I want to get a state passport, I have to submit a photo of my head and face.

What is the problem with me having to provide an image of my fingerprint if I want to make an application, in the interests of the common good???

masteroftherealm

Look Im not going into this any further suffice it to say that introducing a national identity managment system for social welfare is NOT the same as doing it in superquinn. Read up on it.
Oh and show me the state ID card? Never seen one of those!

Darragh29

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Look Im not going into this any further suffice it to say that introducing a national identity managment system for social welfare is NOT the same as doing it in superquinn. Read up on it.
Oh and show me the state ID card? Never seen one of those!

Sorry meant the Garda Age/ID card... Have read up on it and there is no reason on this earthy world as to why this cannot be implemented in this country. Of course the scale of deploying such a solution is greater than deploying it in Superquinn, big deal, bigger job, properly managed there is no issue whatsoever.

ceret

Darragh29 wrote: »

So how come I can see it in operation in Superquinn so if we need a referendum before we can use it???

Because Superquinn are able to treat their employees badly? Anyone who complains about it would get the sack. Superquinn and the employees know that there are lots of people looking for work, last thing anyone wants to do is get sacked.

It's a one way relationship that's open to abuse.

oldyouth

Truly shocking programme. OK, so we are all responsible for the high levels of social welfare levels that have attracted these thieves, but the utter incompetence of the Dept of Social Welfare staff (top to bottom) in identifying the fraud is disgraceful.

As a result of that programme, nobody will get fired, nobody will get demoted, nobody will be held accounable for failure to detect the bleedin' obvious. That is where it would differ in the private sector.

The savings to be made by improving detection would cover the public sector pay cuts coming on Wednesday. What is the mantra the public service chant? 'we didn't cause the recession, so why should we pay?'. Look to your colleagues where your salary cut is heading

If you can't do the job you are paid to do, you shouldn't be doing it. Don't give me the bursting at the seams reply, because if you embraced change and modernisation you wouldn't be.

masteroftherealm

Darragh29 wrote: »

Sorry meant the Garda Age/ID card... Have read up on it and there is no reason on this earthy world as to why this cannot be implemented in this country. Of course the scale of deploying such a solution is greater than deploying it in Superquinn, big deal, bigger job, properly managed there is no issue whatsoever.

Ok so your 5 minutes online is better than my 6 years experience. Grand I bow to your immense and vague knowledge that you have gathered in 5 minutes I must be wrong if you say so.

oceanclub

Personally, I'd rather see a Primetime special entitled "Let's Hunt and Kill Seanie Fitzpatrick Pour Encourager Les Autres".

P.

ParkRunner

Incredible that a social welfare fraud expose is twisted into another PS bashing thread. No doubt there are cracks in the system but there is an increasing sophistication out there in identity fraud and no sense of shame in some people. They all knew exactly what they were doing and we are all paying for it.

boodlesdoodles

I can't believe a programme about defrauding the social welfare system has been turned into yet another thread about bashing the public sector. Its not the workers in the Social welfare offices fault that fraud is so easy, blame the legislation and EU rules.

Really the mods should shut this thread down as its only going over already well trodden ground in other threads.

westtip

I reckon what they should do is introduce a bounty hunter scheme for social welfare scammers/fraudsters

If you snitch on a social welfare defrauder and social welfare get a kill, then 50% of what social welfare will save on the fraud for say a 6 month period or say 50% of the refund that comes back should be paid as commission to faudster bounty hunter.

woudl be a brill way of making a few quid.

dny123456

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Ok so your 5 minutes online is better than my 6 years experience.

I'm afraid, it probably is. Nothing in the data protection act to stop a biometric being used for the purposes of identity in the collection of welfare. The key is, that the biometric (or any information) is not used for any other purpose, other than that for which it was collected for. For example. they couldn't collect your fingerprint for a social welfare system and then later use that to identify (or rule out) your involvement in a crime.

leninbenjamin

EF wrote: »

Incredible that a social welfare fraud expose is twisted into another PS bashing thread.

to be fair though, if the fraud really is as bad as that report makes it out to be (and it no doubt is) you have to ask how have the front line staff allowed this to happen? They are the first port of call, they are the one's tasked with enforcement of policy. So then, surely it should be their job to at least bring it to the attention of those above them, instead of relying on the same journalistic exposé that we always seem to do in this country...

to give a silly little analogy; if you ran a supermarket and found your shelf stackers weren't removing the out of date products from the shelves what would you do?

gerry28

We need much tougher penalties for social welfare fraud. People need to be genuinely afraid of being caught.

It is incredible that yet again the public sector are getting it in the neck from some posters.

Its as much about about lax laws, government departments not even aware of the extent of the problem, society's lassie faire attitude to people abusing the system, the scumbags themselves who do it and much more i'm sure.

There is alot of money to be saved if its tackled properly so it should be as important to people as the public sector paycuts where.

boodlesdoodles

leninbenjamin wrote: »

to be fair though, if the fraud really is as bad as that report makes it out to be (and it no doubt is) you have to ask how have the front line staff allowed this to happen? They are the first port of call, they are the one's tasked with enforcement of policy. So then, surely it should be their job to at least bring it to the attention of those above them, instead of relying on the same journalistic exposé that we always seem to do in this country...

to give a silly little analogy; if you ran a supermarket and found your shelf stackers weren't removing the out of date products from the shelves what would you do?

I think the real question is why the government have allowed it become so easy for the system to be defrauded? Also improvements in technology and ID theft have made it easy for fraud to occur. Basically you could use your analogy to blame the frontline staff at the banks for atm fraud and credit card theft.

ParkRunner

leninbenjamin wrote: »

to be fair though, if the fraud really is as bad as that report makes it out to be (and it no doubt is) you have to ask how have the front line staff allowed this to happen? They are the first port of call, they are the one's tasked with enforcement of policy. So then, surely it should be their job to at least bring it to the attention of those above them, instead of relying on the same journalistic exposé that we always seem to do in this country...

You saw yourself how frustrated some of them were that they couldnt say a couple were cohabiting even though they clearly were. In this litigious society of ours if you dont have solid watertight evidence against someone you cant even raise an eyebrow

imme

Darragh29 wrote: »

Yeah it is and they have people here coming on making one apology after the next as to why it is so easy to defaud the system, one being, "we make over a million payments a week"...

All the more reason to cut down on fraud!!!

making an apology? do you mean they're making a statement.
I don't get what you mean in your first post "PS worker/apologist", what do you mean?

imme

Kristopherus wrote: »

Darragh29, do you work for the Indo, by any chance? Your attitude to the PS is very similar:eek::eek::eek:

LOL

Sand

@masteroftherealm

Have you hands on experience with Access Control Systems?

Have you a working knowledge of the Data Protection Act?

Did you know it would take a referendum to introduce such an identity managment system in Ireland?

If your answer to the above is no then you have less experience than me in this area and should believe me when I tell you, your way way off the mark and have no practical basis to make the suggestions that you are. I am telling you from a professional point of view that the system you are proposing would have a minimum lead time of 24 months, would require legislation to be passed, would need to be put to tender, then a system be developed and trialed. It would have to be passed through the European court of Human rights as did the system in the UK. I can keep going as to why your wrong if you wish?

I love the "can-do" attitude you find in the public sector. Always looking for solutions and efficiencies, always brimming with potential and enthusiasm.

Do you have any ideas on how to solve welfare fraud? Darraghs thrown out an idea. What is yours?

masteroftherealm

Sand wrote: »

@masteroftherealm



I love the "can-do" attitude you find in the public sector. Always looking for solutions and efficiencies, always brimming with potential and enthusiasm.

Do you have any ideas on how to solve welfare fraud? Darraghs thrown out an idea. What is yours?

Wow since when am I a PS worker? Lovely assumations you made there.
Ive never worked in the Public Sector.

Cluthching at straws much?

I am not a fraud investigator I am an IT professional, I gave my professional opinion on something that I had hands on experience in. If I was a fraud investigator Im sure Id have an answer to your second question.

Melion

Ashamed to say my father was on the show tonight.

implausible

Melion wrote: »

Ashamed to say my father was on the show tonight.

Really? What do you reckon then- is it the system, the lack of punishment or individual responsibility?

imme

Sand wrote: »

@masteroftherealm



I love the "can-do" attitude you find in the public sector. Always looking for solutions and efficiencies, always brimming with potential and enthusiasm.

Do you have any ideas on how to solve welfare fraud? Darraghs thrown out an idea. What is yours?

you're obviously being facetious?
are you giving a general view on all of the PS?
Does one person's response on Boards.ie give the general response of the PS.

masteroftherealm

One persons response whos not a PS worker even!!

Oafley Jones

masteroftherealm wrote: »

Wow since when am I a PS worker? Lovely assumations you made there.
Ive never worked in the Public Sector.

Cluthching at straws much?

I am not a fraud investigator I am an IT professional, I gave my professional opinion on something that I had hands on experience in. If I was a fraud investigator Im sure Id have an answer to your second question.

It's amazing to me the mental gymnastics some people can achieve in order to have a go at the public service. Histrionics, straw-man arguments and intellectually facile points are already well in evidence here. The public service needs radical reform, but the pettiness and the bitterness which seems to categorize the debate speaks of other deeper personnel issues for some posters. Son of two former civil servants btw.

GER12

The person from the Department was the Director General - one of these high ranking public servants! It was rather informative that this individual in acting in her position was yet unable to give actual statistics of fraud and error across the different welfare schemes that they operate.

I think the main message that can be drawn from the programme is that current systems and those that work within the system are not exactly qualified or effective in identifying fraud and error. The emphasis on cross border checks was raised and particularly informative was that despite the expensive use of resources in mounting these checks only 4 cases were identified.

Many of what was raised tonight was highlighted in the Dail committee on social affairs fraud and error report and the Comptroller and auditor general's report 2008. It seems to me that while people have been convicted of fraud - they are still allowed to claim benefits. In one case we had an asylum seeker who was claiming disability allowance while working in a supermarket in the swan centre - he is still claiming disability allowance. Another case involved jobseekers. The ease at which the Department issues second PPS numbers and lack of control measures that led to fraud was highlighted. Tighter controls across the system needs to be undertaken - and yes - I'd advocate if people as we saw defrauded the system they should no longer have any right to any other benefits. In this system there should be no rights without responsibilities and if people cannot meet their responsiblies to act in accordance with the law well my opinion is that they have no rights!

And yes, I'd be familiar with client identity services - and how it doesnt work. Biometric information will only work to the extent that those charged with implementing control measures in the Department and devising changes in policy have the necessary backgrounds and skills - these people are prepared to affect necessary changes in Departmental work practices, match skills-base to those required for implementing job specs in the Department - affect changes in social policy and work collaboratively with other EU welfare organisations including data protection to learn from best practice!

TCP/IP_King

Darragh29 wrote: »

Doesn't exist?!?!?!?!? I'll personally go down to Superquinn tomorrow and take a picture of it in operation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Superquinn aren't exactly in the business of handing out cash to over 1,000,000 people a week, and I don't think a biometric system would have to cope with too many people attempting to fraudulently enter Superquinn

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4580447.stm