Going to the North? Tax your car!

dowlingm

PSNI in (L)Derry are pulling in cars from the South not taxed:
http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Rage-as-Donegal-drivers-targeted.5885690.jp

Hat-tip Slugger
http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/picking-on-the-republics-tax-discs-offenders/

Personally have no sympathy whatever, but that won't come as a surprise to those who read the "I got caught without ticket/ID on service X how can I avoid paying" threads.

Steviemak

dowlingm wrote: »

Personally have no sympathy whatever,

For a mother having to carry her 13 month old son into town from the Folye bridge because her car was 2 days out of tax within the 14 day grace period. Thats a bit harsh in my judgement.

I was stopped by the PSNI and my god they really do despise southerners.

loyatemu

don't they have the power to seize and crush uninsured and untaxed cars in the UK?

that would be a serious deterrent and might explain why they were only catching southern-reg motors.

as for the woman who's car was 2 days out of tax, she says herself in the article that she hadn't got her insurance cert, so presumably her insurance disc was out-of-date also.

Tipsy Mac

Provided a car has insurance and that can be proved I'd be of the opinion that pocketing fines based on another states motor taxes is 100% illegal and the Department Of Foreign Affairs should look in to it.

Sponge Bob

A grace period does not apply outside the state you klutzes , it is a local forbearance that has no legal standing in any other country.

If you go abroad you need to tax the car first and in the UK

1. A car is not insured if not taxed
2. You have 14 days to tax it during which plod can fine you and give you points evenn if it is parked.
3. After the 14 days it may be clamped and crushed

Telling plod it is only 14 days out is a red rag to a bull

dowlingm

Now all we need is a GS checkpoint north of Dundalk and VAT receipts and car tax revenues will have a bumper December...

jhegarty

loyatemu wrote: »

as for the woman who's car was 2 days out of tax, she says herself in the article that she hadn't got her insurance cert, so presumably her insurance disc was out-of-date also.

But you don't need one in the UK.

Sponge Bob

You need a cert , not a disk .

c montgomery

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A grace period does not apply outside the state you klutzes , it is a local forbearance that has no legal standing in any other country.

If you go abroad you need to tax the car first and in the UK

1. A car is not insured if not taxed
2. You have 14 days to tax it during which plod can fine you and give you points evenn if it is parked.
3. After the 14 days it may be clamped and crushed

Telling plod it is only 14 days out is a red rag to a bull

Incorrect

CamperMan

I saw a similar situation in Ennskillen a while back, the plod were stopping only southern registered cars.. and boy, there were a few southern registered cars lined up at the side of the road with no occupants, I could only assume that these cars were not taxed....

ardmacha

This has been discussed in motors, nothing illegal or strange about it except that not giving people two days grace brings law enforcement into disrepute, as the law is not enforced so strictly in other more important areas.

Sponge Bob

c montgomery wrote: »

Incorrect

Thought it was only valid ( if tax had run out) and if you were going to an MOT appointment which you would not be doing with an RoI reg car.

jhegarty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Thought it was only valid ( if tax had run out) and if you were going to an MOT appointment which you would not be doing with an RoI reg car.

Your insurance is only void if the insurance company says so. No such provision would be in a Irish policy.

celticbest

I was of the thinking that motor tax only applied to the state in which the vechicle was registered.

If you are in the North with a Southern reg. vechicle how can the ruc enforce a foreign state's laws?? Southern motor tax has nothing to do with the british as they do not receive any of the money collected through it.

Once the car is insured is this not all that should matter to them?

prendy

celticbest wrote: »

I was of the thinking that motor tax only applied to the state in which the vechicle was registered.

If you are in the North with a Southern reg. vechicle how can the ruc enforce a foreign state's laws?? Southern motor tax has nothing to do with the british as they do not receive any of the money collected through it.

Once the car is insured is this not all that should matter to them?

PSNI.

And i agree that once you leave ROI then tax should have no bearing. Insurance should be their only concern.

Cionád

Steviemak wrote: »

I was stopped by the PSNI and my god they really do despise southerners.

In my limited I've found them to be polite, pleasant and competant.

When attending the scene of a minor accident I've never seen such thorough work, sketching the scene, photographs, breathalysing etc, good police work IMO.

AlekSmart

In my limited I've found them to be polite, pleasant and competant.

I too found Steviemak`s PSNI observation to be at odds with my own experiences with the force.

IIMII

celticbest wrote: »

If you are in the North with a Southern reg. vechicle how can the ruc enforce a foreign state's laws?? Southern motor tax has nothing to do with the british as they do not receive any of the money collected through it.

Exactly. They have no powers over the tax situation of non-British registered cars. Typical of them, stirring up trouble

ardmacha

They have no powers over the tax situation of non-British registered cars. Typical of them, stirring up trouble

As I said on the motors thread, vehicles can visit places and be exempt from local requirements. But a condition of this exemption is that you have complied with the requirements of your home registration. ROI vehicles visiting NI are exempt from motor tax requirements, so long as their own tax is in order, if it is not then they have not complied with requirements.

Now I think the two day thing is ridiculous, but I expect that the PSNI also seize NI vehicles that are two days out, so have a sort of consistency, albeit on something that doesn't warrant such extreme measures.

IIMII

I wasn't aware of that rule..

I still think they were going out of their way to cause trouble - why change their winning ways

steamjetjoe

Ok im confused Just say someone from Dublin decided to have a days shopping up north & they have their car fully taxed in the south. Do you have to have your car taxed up north also

Sponge Bob

no , just have valid tax insurance nct before you cross the border , that means insurance cert not disk

corktina

it stands to reason you must have valid tax....what would you think if a whole hoard of ,say, polish cars were on our roads regularly and untaxed?

L1011

Steviemak wrote: »

I was stopped by the PSNI and my god they really do despise southerners.

You got a bad one, then. They have their name and station written on the front of their uniform most of them; and a very clear number otherwise. And the Police Ombudsman is most helpful to those that make complaints.

I have never, ever experienced a PSNI officer that wasn't courteous. Even when I was breaking a rather major rule of the road (provisional licence) as a teenager....

IIMII

Unfortunately the good experiences are not universal. Mind you, the worst I had was with the RUC rather than the PSNI

speedscot

corktina wrote: »

it stands to reason you must have valid tax....what would you think if a whole hoard of ,say, polish cars were on our roads regularly and untaxed?

That sounds like the estate I live on.

Carawaystick

corktina wrote: »

it stands to reason you must have valid tax....what would you think if a whole hoard of ,say, polish cars were on our roads regularly and untaxed?

How do you know polish cars must pay a road license?
How do you know that polish cars must display a circular disc showing they have paid the tax?

What about Austrian cars that only need pay an annual tax to use motorways?

How do the cops in another country know about the fiscal matters in the third country?


Could someone show me the law stating foreign cars must comply with the british laws for tax disc display? what's to stop someone taking down their tax disc at the border? what british law forces then to show they've complied with irish tax laws?

K-9

I know of 2 Southern registered car owners this happened to, in the Strabane area. It was the DVLA, not the PSNI.

Anyway, think the fine is about €250, you can get €150 or so back from them.

Anyway better make sure the car is taxed going up North, otherwise the trip may not be worth it.

Carawaystick

K-9 wrote: »

Anyway better make sure the car is taxed going up North, otherwise the trip may not be worth it.

Why?
How do the cops there know if you've paid or not if you don't display the disc? link to the british law stating foreign regd EU vehicles must display discs for bonus points

K-9

Carawaystick wrote: »

Why?
How do the cops there know if you've paid or not if you don't display the disc? link to the british law stating foreign regd EU vehicles must display discs for bonus points

They clamp the cars regardless of law.

Argue it with them if it happens to you, not me! :rolleyes:

Don't be surprised if it happens, is all I'm saying.

If you can quote the law to them, way you go!

MASTIE

This is a strange one.
Under UK law all UK registered vehicles must have a valid road fund licence on display. There is no grace period.
I do not understand how non UK registered vehicles can be fined for having no road tax as some countries do not pay a separate road tax. France for example.

Although you do not require a valid road fund licence to be insured, the small print usually states vehicle must be "road worthy and legal". (can't recall the exact terminology)
This is open to interpretation, but having no valid tax disc may mean the vehicle is not 100% road legal and therefore does not comply with insurance stipulations. So maybe the PSNI have found a loophole that allows them to target vehicles from the Republic.

It has almost been made 100% impossible to get away without out of date tax disc in UK, as the DVLA has a database which it screens and will send out a fine if you are late and there are also growing numbers of ANPR cameras that screen cars number plates automatically from fixed point or police cars and highlight this to police in a split second if you have no tax/insurance/MOT(NCT).

jimmycrackcorm

I don't understand how they can fine and clamp southern cars. What's the law being applied? I reckon it would be open to a legal challenge because a car with tax out by a couple of days would not be treated similarly in the south and there's plenty of precedent.

sdanseo

Dear god this is an absolute disgrace.

The PSNI or VOSA are NOT the tax collectors for the Irish government. How DARE they pull over a car for not being taxed when in Ireland it would be legal? Even if the tax was out of date by years it makes no difference to the UK coffers and if it's just passing through they should have no right to EVER fine anyone.

UK authorities should be ashamed of themselves pure and simple. Absolute and utter bull****. There actually are not words for how wrong this is, politically and otherwise.

celticbest

I have just sent the following query onto the psni, it will be interesting to see if they respond.



Hi,

I have recently heard that you have been stopping and clamping vehicles from the ROI in Derry who's ROI car tax is not valid.

Can you please confirm the UK law which allows you to stop,clamp or fine a Foreign registered car for taxes not paid in a Foreign state.

As you may be aware vehicles from countries like France or Poland do not show tax discs so how would this law be enforced upon them?

Please see link attached from the Derry Journal which confirms my above query :

http://www.derryjournal.com/journal/Rage-as-Donegal-drivers-targeted.5885690.jp

Any information you can supply on this query would be gratefully accepted.

Davidth88

Hi,

Found this link

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_10014623

I think the piece that is applicable is

"It is the responsibility for the driver to prove how long the vehicle has been in the country. This can be done by producing ferry tickets.

EU vehicles brought into the UK will be allowed to be used freely for six months in any 12-month period without the need to register in the UK, provided the vehicle complies with the requirements of its home country. "

So if you have no tax , you do not comply to the requirements of the home country ( ROI in this case ) . Now I don't know what standing in law the ' grace period ' has , but I suspect none, in which case although being a little pedantic in the case of a two day out of date tax, the PSNI were doing the right thing.

I see no reason why you should expect a car that is not legal here ( ie no tax ) to be driven in the Uk or anywhere else.

I know when I used to drive in France/Germany a lot I made sure my car was 100% legal and had ALL docs with me , the French in particular are real nasty to GB plated cars.

ardmacha

Whatever the situation about cars from France and Spain there are long standing rules about the circulation of cars in Ireland. All it takes is for a law from 70 years ago recognising tax discs from the South as being equivalent to those in the North.

Zoney

sdonn wrote: »

Dear god this is an absolute disgrace.

The PSNI or VOSA are NOT the tax collectors for the Irish government. How DARE they pull over a car for not being taxed when in Ireland it would be legal? Even if the tax was out of date by years it makes no difference to the UK coffers and if it's just passing through they should have no right to EVER fine anyone.

UK authorities should be ashamed of themselves pure and simple. Absolute and utter bull****. There actually are not words for how wrong this is, politically and otherwise.

I do not understand such outrage. What part of complying with the law is hard to comprehend? Why have any sympathy for those breaking the law? The "grace period" here is an absurdity.

Unlike here they are simply doing things properly. Maybe if our own authorities were more rigorous and people here were more lawabiding, not only would the state have more tax income, but we would have people off the road who we would all be better off for not encountering on the roads.

sdanseo

Zoney wrote: »

I do not understand such outrage. What part of complying with the law is hard to comprehend? Why have any sympathy for those breaking the law? The "grace period" here is an absurdity.

Unlike here they are simply doing things properly. Maybe if our own authorities were more rigorous and people here were more lawabiding, not only would the state have more tax income, but we would have people off the road who we would all be better off for not encountering on the roads.

I have no sympathy whatsoever for those who break the law and I agree that the grace period is stupid, it only promotes putting off payment and I've fallen foul of it a couple of times myself :rolleyes:

My gripe is with the PSNI appearing to undermine our laws and exploiting a nice little earner, tbh.

monaghanbiffo

1. This is Bollox!!!!

2. Would everyone stop referring to Ireland as ROI or the Republic of Ireland. This is not a soccer match. the 26 counties is Ireland. The UK territory consisting of the 6 Ulster counties is Northern Ireland.

Ireland and Northern Ireland!!!

ardmacha

Northern Ireland is by definition part of Ireland. If you are talking about two different parts of Ireland it is necessary to be clear which part you mean.

Bottom line, If the vehicle is "street Legal" then it's OK to take onto a foreign road as long as the driver has the correct insurance.

nordydan

monaghanbiffo wrote: »

1. This is Bollox!!!!

2. Would everyone stop referring to Ireland as ROI or the Republic of Ireland. This is not a soccer match. the 26 counties is Ireland. The UK territory consisting of the 6 Ulster counties is Northern Ireland.

Ireland and Northern Ireland!!!

This is getting ridiculuous. This stupid argument appeared on the M20 thread as well. What island do we live in?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland

Alun

Is this not relevant here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Traffic

The vehicle must meet all technical requirements to be legal for road use in the country of registration. Any conflicting technical requirements (e.g. right-hand-drive or left-hand-drive) in the signatory country where the vehicle is being driven do not apply.

Depends on your exact reading of what 'technical requirements' is, really.

IIMII

ardmacha wrote: »

Northern Ireland is by definition part of Ireland. If you are talking about two different parts of Ireland it is necessary to be clear which part you mean.

The way I see it, and always say it is that I live in Ireland, and that only a small part of the Island is still occupied by the British, the six counties. I'm not changing how I refer to my country to suit what is a unnatural and imposed border.

Anyway on the cars, our motortax is a revenue collection mechanism to keep our roads in order etc. This is piracy, nothing less. None of the raised revenue here will ever be used on roads controlled by the Irish government, and as such this is just an exercise in extortion.

This is piracy, nothing more. The PSNI are no better than the Somali pirates that are seizing ships off the cost of Somalia and holding them for ransom.

IIMII

IIMII wrote: »

The way I see it, and always say it is that I live in Ireland, and that only a small part of the Island is still occupied by the British, the six counties. I'm not changing how I refer to my country to suit what is a unnatural and imposed border.

Anyway on the cars, our motortax is a revenue collection mechanism to keep our roads in order etc. This is piracy, nothing less. None of the raised revenue here will ever be used on roads controlled by the Irish government, and as such this is just an exercise in extortion.

This is piracy, nothing more. The PSNI are no better than the Somali pirates that are seizing ships off the cost of Somalia and holding them for ransom.

ardmacha

There is much pointless jumping up and down on this thread. The revenue raised from these fines will be used where the vehicles concerned were driving when the offence took place. You could also have a situation where the PSNI would fine you if you were a small fraction over a speed limit, whereas the Gardai might give you some leeway. You do have the situation where Dublin city council will clamp you and extract money from you. But in both cases everyone is being treated equally, if unduly harshly

IIMII

Deleted User wrote: »

A bit like yourself

IIMII

ardmacha wrote: »

There is much pointless jumping up and down on this thread. The revenue raised from these fines will be used where the vehicles concerned were driving when the offence took place. You could also have a situation where the PSNI would fine you if you were a small fraction over a speed limit, whereas the Gardai might give you some leeway. You do have the situation where Dublin city council will clamp you and extract money from you. But in both cases everyone is being treated equally, if unduly harshly

Do the PSNI get involved with prosecuting people for not paying income tax south of the border, if that person happens to cross the border to go shopping?

IIMII

IIMII wrote: »

A bit like yourself

The discussion is about whether having no valid tax disk leaves you open to prosecution "abroad" it does!

IIMII

IIMII wrote: »

Do the PSNI get involved with prosecuting people for not paying income tax south of the border, if that person happens to cross the border to go shopping?

Yes, if tipped off by the revenue.

IIMII

Deleted User wrote: »

The discussion is about whether having no valid tax disk leaves you open to prosecution "abroad" it does!

It's not abroad, and yes whilst the PSNI can obviously do what they are doing, it is still piracy