2009 Uneven Ages All-Ireland Cross Country

dunner :P

This was one of the most badly organised races I have been at in a long time. 3 races started without a gun or whistle or even the starter saying go? Has anyone any other opinions on this?

ChickenTikka

I wasn't there but some teams from my club were there and the reports are that it was one great big mess. The U11 boys race were lined up in chutes at the wrong starting point and then when someone spotted that it was much longer than 800m, brought a few hunderd metres down the course to some other point. Then they had 5 false starts and when they did get going, half the field didn't hear the start and thought it was another false start.

Then after the u15 girls race, there was an announcment that 2 of the earlier races were null and void due to unfair starts and would be rerun. Seems the plan is to rerun on a date after Christmas. Don't know if thats true - but thats an even worse situation, dragging people back to one end of the country again.

Many families would have travelled to Coleraine and forked out several hundred euro between accomodation, travel and food. Its crazy to be told up there that well done you ran a hard race but the result is void and we'd love you to come back in 4 weeks time to race again. Presumably there's free accomodation and food going with that.

Its frustrating that good clubs do such hard work in preparing teams for the national cross country finals and this sort of stuff undoes alot of that hard work. Parents/athetes will walk away from the sport due to this kind of thing.

Two weeks previously Mullingar Harriers organised a perfect cross country event in Kilbeggan (and won medals in most of the juvenile races when they were at it!). AAI should just pay Mullingar Harriers to organise them all any more - they have some good courses, all pretty central.

patfol

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I wasn't there but some teams from my club were there and the reports are that it was one great big mess. The U11 boys race were lined up in chutes at the wrong starting point and then when someone spotted that it was much longer than 800m, brought a few hunderd metres down the course to some other point. Then they had 5 false starts and when they did get going, half the field didn't hear the start and thought it was another false start.

Then after the u15 girls race, there was an announcment that 2 of the earlier races were null and void due to unfair starts and would be rerun. Seems the plan is to rerun on a date after Christmas. Don't know if thats true - but thats an even worse situation, dragging people back to one end of the country again.

Many families would have travelled to Coleraine and forked out several hundred euro between accomodation, travel and food. Its crazy to be told up there that well done you ran a hard race but the result is void and we'd love you to come back in 4 weeks time to race again. Presumably there's free accomodation and food going with that.

Its frustrating that good clubs do such hard work in preparing teams for the national cross country finals and this sort of stuff undoes alot of that hard work. Parents/athetes will walk away from the sport due to this kind of thing.

Two weeks previously Mullingar Harriers organised a perfect cross country event in Kilbeggan (and won medals in most of the juvenile races when they were at it!). AAI should just pay Mullingar Harriers to organise them all any more - they have some good courses, all pretty central.

One of our athletes won an individual medal in under 13 boys which is supposed to be rerun day of crosscountry "B"s. What other age group was declared void? I only heard of that one. How do you chase up the individual medal winners and ask them to return the medals. It's scandalous. Imagine facing home to a 7 hour bus journey with a medal that's been declared null and void. Equally, we have athletes heading home from the same race who never even got to start. Crazy stuff at national level

ChickenTikka

patfol wrote: »

What other age group was declared void?

I heard u13 boys and u15 girls. But best wait for some official announcment as maybe my information isn't correct.

dunner :P

i think that it was an awful shame that the months of training which athletes have put in for this event, were wasted due to unfair starts. To have such unprofessional and chaotic scenes at the start line is very disappointing. It is obvious that more officials are required at the start line, perhaps parents and or coaches could sign on to give the organizers assistance if needed?

slowshortweak

An email to NI clubs was circulated on Wednesday last week looking for helpers as there was no host club. A little too late. There is a huge amount of work involved in hosting these events. The AAI need to start putting it on a professional footing, instead of waiting for clubs to volunteer. The athletes who travelled from all over the country deserve better.
I heard the U13 Boys and U15 girls were to be rerun?

helpisontheway

I wasnt there either but heard the same complaints from another coach in the club who was there.I tought there was something dodgy about a few of the results from athletes from my county that i have heard about already,ie athletes beating other county athletes that they would normally not even be close to.
AAI gave the event to Coleraine so in the end of the day they are responsible.In my opinion clubs should not be left organise National events,AAI should organise it with the help of the club.That way the AAI can ensure its run properly.Otherwise as ChickenTika said give all the events to Mullingar Harriers.
Ive said this many times here before that its a disgrace that AAI dont hold events both XC and T+F in a central location.Asking people to travel over 7 hours to an event and 7 hours back probably with the cost of a family overnight stay shows how detached some of them are from grass root athletics.I hear there is a possibility that one weekend of the national indoors will be in Magherafelt again this season even after the problems with it last year.:mad:

ricflair

any results of the novice men

jimmylive

helpisontheway wrote: »

Ive said this many times here before that its a disgrace that AAI dont hold events both XC and T+F in a central location.Asking people to travel over 7 hours to an event and 7 hours back probably with the cost of a family overnight stay shows how detached some of them are from grass root athletics.I hear there is a possibility that one weekend of the national indoors will be in Magherafelt again this season even after the problems with it last year.:mad:

U dont hear the northern clubs complaining when the all irelands are in dungarvan and the likes.

Is it just me or does anyone south of Dublin east and west have a phobia/complaint with regards travelling to a place that they have to travel over 2hrs to?

<Snip>


As U can drive the length of the country in 6hrs! Fact! and the aai do hold events in central locations, DUBLIN and Tullamore being two.

Why the hell would you want to drag people to that hole in Nenagh when there is a hugely better facility in Magherafelt. <Snip>

Rio 2016

The very same happened to me up in Jordenstown in the schools in March. Whether or not I would have won the race on the day is debateable but my opportunity was taken away from me.

If the same starters were in charge today then it is an absolute disgrace on behalf of the authorities because I appealed to the powers that be after the race that those starters should never be put in charge of another race at national level again.

Any faith I had in the AAI or the ISAA or the IUAA is now gone as a result of that day and it is appalling that families and athletes have had to put up with this bulls**t.

downthemiddle

It is very difficult to describe the events today without it sounding like a rant. I have been involved in sport all my life and I have never experienced anything like today.
Today was a day when the AAI, the local organising committee (if it existed), certain coaches, parents and a number of athletes all share culpability for the chaotic scenes that ensued.

It began at the gate with 30 minute queues. Only one of the entrances to the university was open. The parking barriers were down and 20 metres inside the barriers AAI officials were collecting money. Surely they could have stood at the barriers so that there was only one delay and opened at least one other entrance.

The course itself was not suitable for the event. The measurements were wrong. Apparently the outer loop which was meant to be 2,000 m was 2,700 m which meant, for example the u19 boys ran over 8,000 m instead of 6,000m. Just under 100 m after the start the course narrowed sharply. It was only sheer luck that nobody was seriously injured here, although there was a young athlete badly injured further out the course. The course for the u 15 and u 19 girls had a sharp right hand bend 30 metres into the race.

The course for the u 11 races was 200 m too long so they attempted to walk the athletes to a new start. The athletes were given no audible instuctions and so didn't know what was happening. Some of them thought the race had started and took off. We had 9 and 10 yrs olds in tears, parents and coaches screaming abuse and a general sense of chaos.

The u 13 girls started before any signal was given but all the athletes took off and other than that the race ran relatively smoothly.

The u 13 boys was a complete shambles. With parents and coaches telling them to do so, they started before any signal. Up to a dozen athletes, who had lined up on the starting line more than 30 m behind where the others took off from were left behind. Some of these were still in their tracksuit tops. To cap it all the first athlete across the line managed to take a short cut, something easily done as there were no officials on the course.

At this point a number of us went in to help with the start of the u 15 girls race. As we attempted to shepherd the girls back 30 metres to the start line two coaches, from one of the highest profile clubs in the country, were telling their athletes " keep coming, keep coming, don't listen to them, go" and off they went leaving the two girls who stayed at the start line behind in tears. One of these girls is an international athlete and one of the favourites for the title. When I approached one of these coaches after the race about his behaviour he as still unaware that the race had been declared void and he told me " the end justified the means".

Before the u 15 girls race finished I approached two members of the AAI executive explained what had happened and asked them not to present the medals at the end of the race until the situation was clarified. They went ahead and presented the medals because " it seemed like the right thing to do". Apparently something similar happened after the u 13 boys race. We now have 24 athletes with individual medals for races that have been declared null and void.

The u17 girls ran smoothly but the u17 boys also started without the gun being fired.

I spoke to both the CEO and the President of the AAI after the event. I was particularly impressed by the attitude of the CEO. There was an emergency of the Juvenile Committee after the races today. I think we can expect a statement from the AAI within 24 hrs.

It is impossible to point the finger at one particular group for the events today. One can only hope that lessons will be learnt from today and young children will never again have to experience such a shambles again.

Today was the flagship event for juvenile athletics in this country. It should have been a memorable day for our young athletes. It will live in the memory for all the wrong reasons.

jimmylive

Rio 2016 wrote: »

The very same happened to me up in Jordenstown in the schools in March. Whether or not I would have won the race on the day is debateable but my opportunity was taken away from me.

If the same starters were in charge today then it is an absolute disgrace on behalf of the authorities because I appealed to the powers that be after the race that those starters should never be put in charge of another race at national level again.

Any faith I had in the AAI or the ISAA or the IUAA is now gone as a result of that day and it is appalling that families and athletes have had to put up with this bulls**t.

YOU should consider investing in a pair of spikes! Might help you run A BIT quicker. I know we are in a recession and all but you could get a good second hand pair in car boot sale which wudnt set u back too much!

Rio 2016

jimmylive wrote: »

YOU should consider investing in a pair of spikes! Might help you run A BIT quicker. I know we are in a recession and all but you could get a good second hand pair in car boot sale which wudnt set u back too much!

The topic of the thtread invited me to express my opinions on the start of the races and I did that.

If you want trade insults, I suggest that you start up a new thread

theflash800

it was badly organised. really felt bad for the young kids who came out of their races unhappy because of the false starts.
also heard that the big lap was 2,700 rather than 2,000! that means the u19 and novice ran 8.1k rather than 6k! anybody else hear this!?

run like a fox

theflash800 wrote: »

it was badly organised. really felt bad for the young kids who came out of their races unhappy because of the false starts.
also heard that the big lap was 2,700 rather than 2,000! that means the u19 and novice ran 8.1k rather than 6k! anybody else hear this!?

That's incorrect. No idea what the distance was but it was a hell of a lot nearer to 6k than 8k. I'm fairly sure the men's was won in 20.30. Based on that I'd say it was 6k.

helpisontheway

jimmylive wrote: »

U dont hear the northern clubs complaining when the all irelands are in dungarvan and the likes.

Is it just me or does anyone south of Dublin east and west have a phobia/complaint with regards travelling to a place that they have to travel over 2hrs to?

<Snip>


As U can drive the length of the country in 6hrs! Fact! and the aai do hold events in central locations, DUBLIN and Tullamore being two.

Why the hell would you want to drag people to that hole in Nenagh when there is a hugely better facility in Magherafelt. <Snip>

I never said it should be in Dungarven;i said the events should be central!

I am from Kerry actually and a trip for me to Tullamore,Athlone etc is 3+ hours which i dont mind taking the 9/10 times i go there each summer.It actually takes over 7 hours from where i live to get to Coleraine so 7+7+2 hours at the event is 16 hours which means overnight.For Magherafelt that would be 12-14 hours driving and two full days of competition.

As regards Nenagh it is the only indoor track in the country so there is nothing i can do about that,Magherafelt is not a real indoor track;raised and dangerous jump runways,300m track,No raised bends etc etc,unfair national juvenile records being broken in running events due to longer straights etc.Its obvious the only reason the event is taken there is for financial benefits to AAI which should not take precedent over athletes.

Central=maximum 3.5 hour drives which means a large percentage of athletes amd familys can travel up and down on one day not incurring extra costs etc which is going to be a huge factor in the year to come believe me.If AAI cant see that our drop out rate will have a huge increase in the season coming!

justinferris

I was competing today in the u17 race...my race started when a spectator decided to shout go


It was a very poorly organized event,,i feel sorry for anyone who had to travel long distances for the race today, I traveled four hours today, I should have just stayed in bed

bo-sco

I ran the novice race today and there's no way the lap was 2700m. Had a disappointing run overall but I did do the first lap in ~7.05. I couldn't run 2700m in anything near that time on a perfect day on the track never mind in the mush and wind of today's course. I'd say the distance was about right. But the start of our race was terrible as well. The gun just went off out of the blue. I wouldn't mind, I'd been warned and was prepared for a dodgy start but I still got caught on the hop!

ss43

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Then after the u15 girls race, there was an announcment that 2 of the earlier races were null and void due to unfair starts and would be rerun. Seems the plan is to rerun on a date after Christmas. Don't know if thats true - but thats an even worse situation, dragging people back to one end of the country again.

The race wasn't run properly. Some people were on the start line when athletes 20-30m in front after refusing to go back to the start line decided to start running. Everyone followed. The race was never started though in u13 boys, u15 girls and u17 boys. u17 boys most got off close enough together and as it was 4k, it was probably best just to let it go. The younger races were short enough that losing 20m at the start and having to overtake over a hundred runners would make a huge difference. The results if used would be very unfair. Expecting the athletes to rerun would have been a bit much also.

Its frustrating that good clubs do such hard work in preparing teams for the national cross country finals and this sort of stuff undoes alot of that hard work. Parents/athetes will walk away from the sport due to this kind of thing.

From what I saw clubs, parents and athletes were a big part of the problem. The start was too narrow and close to the corner though and officials didn't deal with the problem well. Many athletes (some supported by coache/parents) refused point blank to do as the officials told them and were a significant distance in front of the start line.

helpisontheway wrote: »

In my opinion clubs should not be left organise National events,AAI should organise it with the help of the club.That way the AAI can ensure its run properly.Otherwise as ChickenTika said give all the events to Mullingar Harriers.

Probably a good idea. May have prevented the issue with the course. The starting officials seemed to me to be the same as at every AAI race and they were partly responsible for what happened.

theflash800 wrote: »

it was badly organised. really felt bad for the young kids who came out of their races unhappy because of the false starts.
also heard that the big lap was 2,700 rather than 2,000! that means the u19 and novice ran 8.1k rather than 6k! anybody else hear this!?

Did someone go aorund with a measuring wheel or gps or where did that figure come from? That's disgraceful if it's true. I don't think many people mind a course being a bit out but that's way too much.

In my opinion, the officials need to be heavy handed. They should have threatened (and then carried out if necessary) disqualifications to athletes refusing to move back to the start line. They also should have had a tape across the start line so athletes couldn't advance. I said this to an official immediately after the u13 boys to prevent same happening in u15 girls. Nothing was done and the same thing happened again.

Of course a better marked course would have prevented these things in the first place.

It's not a great reflection of our athletes that probably the majority were happy to ignore the rules (start behind the start line) in order to gain an advantage over their competitors because of the difficult situation on the first corner. It's disgraceful that coaches working with children encouraged this behaviour.

downthemiddle

ss43 wrote: »

They also should have had a tape across the start line so athletes couldn't advance. I said this to an official immediately after the u13 boys to prevent same happening in u15 girls. Nothing was done and the same thing happened again.

They did put tape across the start for the u15 girls but, encouraged by parents and coaches, the girls broke the tape and then ignored all requests to move back to the start line.

Rineanna

I'm gobsmacked by the parents/coaches alleged behaviour. Can't believe it

downthemiddle

Rineanna wrote: »

I'm gobsmacked by the parents/coaches alleged behaviour. Can't believe it

Trust me this is not alleged behaviour. The full account I have given accurately reflects the behaviour which took place today.
The two coaches I mentioned come from a club which until today I would have felt were amongst the elite in our sport.

sh4128

u11 girls was the worst.. 20mins delay while they are there freezing and crying due to officials and parents screaming and other people in the race pushing so much..parents were also heard saying uncalled for things at the line " push her back don't leave her get ahead of you"

--amadeus--

I've deleted some of the rubbish on here - play nice or don't play, nothing hacks me off more than petty bickering. If you have gripes with each other deal with it in the real world and not on here.

Next person to insult another poster, go off topic or back seat mod will get a temp ban.

athletics

Rio 2016 wrote: »

The topic of the thtread invited me to express my opinions on the start of the races and I did that.

If you want trade insults, I suggest that you start up a new thread

God what is your problem? Can't see what's making you get so personal -and what are you even on about talking about spikes? As someone else suggested - get off this thread and start your own one.
We here seem to have a common interest in the juveniloe athletes who competed today. you however are on your own agenda

sh4128

does any1 want to discuss good performances no?

thirtyfoot

Wasn't there but from the accounts here and what I heard elsewhere, a very, very bad day.

Lets hope some good will come of it and that something like this will never happen again if (and when) the post-mortem takes place.

--amadeus--

athletics wrote: »

God what is your problem? Can't see what's making you get so personal -and what are you even on about talking about spikes? As someone else suggested - get off this thread and start your own one.
We here seem to have a common interest in the juveniloe athletes who competed today. you however are on your own agenda

24 hour ban for ignoring a fairly clear warning. The next person banned will be banned for 48 hours.

ricflair

results please pretty pretty please.

Racing Flat

Novice Men

1 Shane Murphy Donore
2 Martin Quinn Dunleer
3 Gregory Roberts Sity of Derry

1 City of Derry
2 Clonliffe
3 Donore

1 Derry
2 Cork
3 Kerry

downthemiddle

U 15 boys won by Shane Fitzsimons
U 17 girls Amy O'Donoghue held off Kate Veale with Helen Lavery 3rd.
U 19 girls Rachel Gibson from Fiona McKenna.
U 19 boys think Chris Jones won it.
For the other races I was in "discussions"

chardonay1

We were there today with our son who was running under 13. We are still in shock from what we experienced. The last race in kilbeggan was well organised with stewards keeping people off the track. Here the track was in an atrocious condition. Everybody was walking on it with no supervision and it was extrmely dangerous for the athletes in some parts. The start of the under 13 s was horrible for the kids. At the start of any race kids are normally in their county pen with officials warning s to keep back and a tape across.There were kids there who would not move back and the kids who did do what they were told were left at a massive disadvantage. They were being told to move back then the crowd would surge forward and in the end they just took off with the encouragement of some parents and coaches who had absolutely no sense of fair play. I hope the medals are taken back because they are not deserved! I am happy to hear that they are running the race again. Any word when?

downthemiddle

There was talk of a re run on Feb 21st along with the B championships. I don't know if this date will suit however as the schools' provincial championships are fixed for the 24th and that will impact on the u15 girls.

sh4128

are schools fixtures made already?

downthemiddle

sh4128 wrote: »

are schools fixtures made already?

On the AAI website.

Racing Flat

Although there to run the Novice, I was unaware of the hassle at the starts. Probably due to arriving late and warming up out of the way. But I did notice that there were no starting pens (I've run this race about 5 times now and there's always been starting pens). If for only the fact that they make it very obvious where the start line is, they are probably a must for such big fields.

I thought it was a great course though.

Racing Flat

Novice Women

1 Mary Scully Mullingar
2 Karen Crossan Inishowen
3 Michelle English Letterkenny

1 Mullingar
2 Donore
3 St Abbans

1 Meath
2 Donegal
3 Dublin

frankeee

run like a fox wrote: »

That's incorrect. No idea what the distance was but it was a hell of a lot nearer to 6k than 8k. I'm fairly sure the men's was won in 20.30. Based on that I'd say it was 6k.

You're spot on - I had a Garmin on & it came up with 3.75miles on the button which is pretty much bang on 6K

mrak

On a positive note the course was epic. Up those hills into the woods under that giant windmill thing - great stuff.

frankeee

mrak wrote: »

On a positive note the course was epic. Up those hills into the woods under that giant windmill thing - great stuff.

In fairness it was, when I heard it was in a university grounds I was expecting a course around a few playing pitches.I know this is a subjective statement but it was probably the best xc course I have raced on. (Even though I ran crap:rolleyes:)
Obviously this doesn't excuse the lack of organisation though. One thing they had over Kilbeggan though was no shortage of hot water.

Stupid_Private

I know that this thread is mainly about complaining but I want to jump in on the positive bandwagon. Like Racing Flat I was completely unaware of the hassle of the early races so can't weigh in on that at all.

It was a cracking course - After competing for large parts under water in the Dublin Intermediates last week this was a welcome relief! I don't think you'd find a better course underfoot in Ireland in December. One nice hill, a few muddy patches, and some flat parts to weave through the field.

When talking about where should host events in the future I think there should be a facilities criteria. Here we had changing rooms less than 100m from the start/finish. At least 40 hot showers in the men's and enough room for 200 people to comfortably change at the same time if needed. A few minutes down the road the student's union was open where you could pick up a sandwich and tea/coffee before and after the race. For those of us that got there early this was a god send.

Lads taking advantage of the facilities was a bit much though. Loads of people were washing their spikes in the showers afterwards. This kind of behaviour is probably why most places don't provide showering facilities after races in Ireland.

P.S. Didn't realise you were there mrak. Spotted you on the results alright, but didn't see you there.

bren74

any results for mens novices available online yet?

Clum

I ran the Novice with my Garmin and measured in at 5.9x km so fairly spot on for distance.

Course was very soft under foot with a nice climb half way round. Plenty of mud so it was slow going.

Facilities were great but the organisation was a disaster unfortunately. Planning wasn't the best either. They couldn't use pens for clubs or counties at the start because the start line was part of the course and we had to run over it 3 times. We couldn't do so if there were pens on it.

Seres

ran in the novice connacht women and was intending to travel 5 hrs up to coleraine, but couldnt , by the sounds of things i am gald i didnt , i would have a very bad opinion of xc if i had cause the conditions for connacht were atrocious and not suitable to run the event
whats the story with the B championships , who can run in these , they are been held near where i live so i would be anxious to know if i can take part ?

meathcountysec

Seres wrote: »

whats the story with the B championships ?

"B" championships are juvenile only event. Run in conjunction with juvenile inter-county relays.

Domer

I just spoke to Francis in the AAI...

'nothing has been agreed yet, but a statement will be made by the end of the day today'

MeThinksThat

When will the official team placements and results be available?

MeThinksThat

The AAI must have collected at lease 15,000 quid at the gate. And that is only for ONE event. Where does this money go? Surely some of it could put aside to ensure effective organisation and officialdom???

mrak

Stupid_Private wrote: »

P.S. Didn't realise you were there mrak. Spotted you on the results alright, but didn't see you there.

I didn't spot you either - might have something to do with the 400m gap between us! Good run btw. I was about 50 places lower than this time last year which I was happy enough with given that I haven't been running. Starting back again now though.

See that lad Martin Quinn that came second..? He's only running a year - awesome stuff. Be really interesting to see how good he can get.

Stupid_Private

A few photos from these races were sent to me today from Kieran Carlin of Finn Valley - I've stuck them up on racepix.

http://www.racepix.com/National-Novice-2009/photos123.aspx

Pharma

I ran in the Novice men's race on Sunday and I can safely say I've never run on a more enjoyable course. It had everything, muck, hills, trees, sharp turns, steep downhill, good ground and the atmosphere was brilliant.

As for the juvenille races, under 13 cross country races are always going to be a mess when you have so many children under so much pressure.

I think there should be an a limit of under 15 for cross country, these poor children quit running the minute they break free from their pushy parents. It is nigh on child abuse to send a load of 12 years old around a cross country course that fully grown adults find tough.

I never raced as a child and I'm pretty sure I'd have given up if I was made to go out and suffer in muck, rain and wind every sunday during winter. Too often, warming up before races you see children crying and being given out to by their overbearing pushy parents.

Running for children should be fun and teach them how enjoyable it can be. A lot of adults never run because they associate running with the suffering and misery that they were put through by often well meaning parents who forced them to run cross country races.

I'm not saying that children shouldn't run, the opposite in fact. But what I saw in Coleraine is not good for the future of the sport. Under age cross country is way too cut throat.