We have fallen for it hook, line and sinker

achtungbarry

I've been reading boards and listening to people with dismay over the last few days.

We have threads started by people claiming "victory" over the public sector.

We constanly have arguments between public and private sector workers.

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves.

We even have people here saying fair play to Cowen, fair play to the FF back benchers and how Cowen is clever etc.

They certainly are clever at least.

People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

We argue.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

We are fighting amongst ourselves, reveling in each others misfortunes and these guys are laughing at us because they are getting away scot free.

Fianna Fail treat us with contempt, the bankers and builders are being bailed out by NAMA and we the ordinary people are fighting amongst ourselves.

They (Fianna Fail and their developer/banker mates) have played us for fools and I'll say it again we fell for it hook line and sinker.

It is incredible to see people praising the FF back benchers for finally "listening to the people"

"listening to the people" Bull !

They are only playing the populist card in a desperate attempt to hang on to their seats yet people here on boards and elsewhere have fallen for it.

If there has been any "victory" here, it is not the general public over the public sector or "people power" or anything else.

The only victory over the last few days is by thiose who got us in to this mess (FF, bankers, developers). They have us fighting amongst ourselves instead of calling for their heads.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

The_Honeybadger

achtungbarry wrote: »

I've been reading boards and listening to people with dismay over the last few days.

We have threads started by people claiming "victory" over the public sector.

We constanly have arguments between public and private sector workers.

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves.

We even have people here saying fair play to Cowen, fair play to the FF back benchers and how Cowen is clever etc.

They certainly are clever at least.

People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

We argue.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

We are fighting amongst ourselves, reveling in each others misfortunes and these guys are laughing at us because they are getting away scot free.

Fianna Fail treat us with contempt, the bankers and builders are being bailed out by NAMA and we the ordinary people are fighting amongst ourselves.

They (Fianna Fail and their developer/banker mates) have played us for fools and I'll say it again we fell for it hook line and sinker.

It is incredible to see people praising the FF back benchers for finally "listening to the people"

"listening to the people" Bull !

They are only playing the populist card in a desperate attempt to hang on to their seats yet people here on boards and elsewhere have fallen for it.

If there has been any "victory" here, it is not the general public over the public sector or "people power" or anything else.

The only victory over the last few days is by thiose who got us in to this mess (FF, bankers, developers). They have us fighting amongst ourselves instead of calling for their heads.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

I have said all along that I was happy for the current government to introduce a savage budget but then their time is up, for gods sake the opposition didnt even want to be in power for this budget as they knew what needed to be done, but they will be quite happy to take over early next year, and reverse nothing. You underestimate the general population if you think they are going to forget how we got here!

Long Onion

Did it ever dawn on you that people are capable of having a modicum of intelligence at times? Personally, I was happy to let the budget issues get thrashed out - I do not, for a second, think I have been played. There are issues that need to be sorted out, for all our sakes. There is plenty of time to deal with apportioning blame, after we are on a more secure footing.

Why is it that so many people feel that they cannot get through the day without having someone to point the finger at and say "it was your fault" - how will this help us in anyway, shape or form? I realise that those responsible need to be taken to task - but should this be the priority and take precedence over finding a soulution that will prevent more bystanders from being hit by a recession shaped stick?

May I respectfully suggest that you vent your obvious passion, energy and enthusiasim into coming up with workable solutions to those who have lost jobs, homes and belenongings over the past few months, weeks and days. You will feel better, contribute in a more meaningful way and than, when the worst is past and the time for blame comes, you will be held in much higher esteem and not be seen as just another begrudging member of the public who has nothing more to offer than to cast scorn on those who we all know deserve it.

frman

All groups will get theirs in good time.


We sort the finances now. This is the most important issue at present.

The unions will get buried.

The Politicians will receive it at the ballot box

The developers are going bankrupt. Can't be let off the hook for the money they owe.

Just got to figure out how the bankers pay for this portion now.

The_Honeybadger

frman wrote: »

All groups will get theirs in good time.


We sort the finances now. This is the most important issue at present.

The unions will get buried.

The Politicians will receive it at the ballot box

The developers are going bankrupt. Can't be let off the hook for the money they owe.

Just got to figure out how the bankers pay for this portion now.

Many of the "bust" developers have feathered their nests long ago through tax loopholes and clever accounting. Their companies will most likely be liquidated but dont think for a second that they will be left penniless. their personal assets cant be touched in many cases, and the banks will also probably get off scot free. Utterly utterly unfair but thats the way it is.

hiorta

This unfailing tactic is better known as 'divide and rule'.
Politicians, financiers, clergy, business, retailers have been employing this scam fo centuries.

Gurgle

Long Onion wrote: »

I do not, for a second, think I have been played.

Then Sir, you are top of the list of those who have been successfully played.

Long Onion

Gurgle wrote: »

Then Sir, you are top of the list of those who have been successfully played.

Please explain, I would be interested to hear if there is any locig behind this post or if it is just an early morning Troll?

Gurgle

Cap the salaries of bank employees at €500k for state rescued banks, then knock 12% off people earning €30k.

And nobody is screaming about this in the Dàil?
Why?

There should be an absolute cap at €150k for everybody whose salary is paid or whose employer is rescued by the state. Maybe this alone won't generate the billions in savings needed, but it would hurt a lot less to take the tax increases if we weren't paying the Pat Kennys of the world 15 times average wage.

Gurgle

Long Onion wrote: »

Please explain, I would be interested to hear if there is any locig behind this post or if it is just an early morning Troll?

Then I will qualify it.

If you believe that Public Sector workers are universally overpaid compared to private sector workers at equivalent levels of skill, education and experience then you have been played.

If you accept that €500k is a reasonable salary cap for employees of a failed bank which has already been rescued by the state, then you have been played.

If you accept that the various local governments need 'new legislation so that they can evaluate planning applications as to whether the proposed construction project may be susceptible to flooding or cause flooding in other areas', you have been played.

If you believe that we are going to be "carbon-taxed" only on commodities for which a green alternative is available, you have been played.

Daithinski

mickeyk wrote: »

Many of the "bust" developers have feathered their nests long ago through tax loopholes and clever accounting. Their companies will most likely be liquidated but dont think for a second that they will be left penniless. their personal assets cant be touched in many cases, and the banks will also probably get off scot free. Utterly utterly unfair but thats the way it is.

+1 Developers can transfer assets into their wives/families names. Once this is done 6 months prior to going bankrupt these assets can't be touched.

Compare this with the ordinary pensioner, if they sell their home 5 years before going into a home the taxman can and will come after the money.

This is the society FF and their cronies have engineered. The developers etc have had plenty of time to get their houses in order before NAMA gets rolled out. When NAMA comes collecting money companies will fold and banks (or should I say Irish taxpayers) will get sweet F.A.

imstrongerthanu

achtungbarry wrote: »

I've been reading boards and listening to people with dismay over the last few days.

We have threads started by people claiming "victory" over the public sector.

We constanly have arguments between public and private sector workers.

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves.

We even have people here saying fair play to Cowen, fair play to the FF back benchers and how Cowen is clever etc.

They certainly are clever at least.

People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

We argue.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

We are fighting amongst ourselves, reveling in each others misfortunes and these guys are laughing at us because they are getting away scot free.

Fianna Fail treat us with contempt, the bankers and builders are being bailed out by NAMA and we the ordinary people are fighting amongst ourselves.

They (Fianna Fail and their developer/banker mates) have played us for fools and I'll say it again we fell for it hook line and sinker.

It is incredible to see people praising the FF back benchers for finally "listening to the people"

"listening to the people" Bull !

They are only playing the populist card in a desperate attempt to hang on to their seats yet people here on boards and elsewhere have fallen for it.

If there has been any "victory" here, it is not the general public over the public sector or "people power" or anything else.

The only victory over the last few days is by thiose who got us in to this mess (FF, bankers, developers). They have us fighting amongst ourselves instead of calling for their heads.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

Divide and conquer.... Nicely put.

Sleipnir

achtungbarry wrote: »

.

I wonder would you be saying the same thing if the unions had got it their way? I doubt it. You would have said something like "the people have spoken" or "we stood up for ourselves" etc etc

The people wanted the public service pay to be cut; given that they have jobs for life regardless of incompetence or laziness and a guaranteed pension which costs this country a fortune, the people thought that was pay cut was fair.
The people want those in the public sector take a pay cut like the rest of the country has been doing (if they haven't been losing their jobs entirely).

I haven't had the wool pulled over my eyes at all.

Darragh29

achtungbarry wrote: »

I've been reading boards and listening to people with dismay over the last few days.

We have threads started by people claiming "victory" over the public sector.

We constanly have arguments between public and private sector workers.

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves.

We even have people here saying fair play to Cowen, fair play to the FF back benchers and how Cowen is clever etc.

They certainly are clever at least.

People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

We argue.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

We are fighting amongst ourselves, reveling in each others misfortunes and these guys are laughing at us because they are getting away scot free.

Fianna Fail treat us with contempt, the bankers and builders are being bailed out by NAMA and we the ordinary people are fighting amongst ourselves.

They (Fianna Fail and their developer/banker mates) have played us for fools and I'll say it again we fell for it hook line and sinker.

It is incredible to see people praising the FF back benchers for finally "listening to the people"

"listening to the people" Bull !

They are only playing the populist card in a desperate attempt to hang on to their seats yet people here on boards and elsewhere have fallen for it.

If there has been any "victory" here, it is not the general public over the public sector or "people power" or anything else.

The only victory over the last few days is by thiose who got us in to this mess (FF, bankers, developers). They have us fighting amongst ourselves instead of calling for their heads.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

RUBBISH RUBISH RUBBISH, I haven't fallen for anything, I haven't been played by anybody. Unlike people like yourself who take instructions from union officials, I can decide these issues for myself and can the situation as I see it without worrying about offending other people in the system.

You guys have been obstructing change and improvement within your sector for many years, now it has all come around full circle and we have the highest paid but least flexible and least accommodating public sector in the world.

Funnily enough, once the threat of wage cuts is wheeled out, you suddenly want to start talking in the same language as the rest of us, promising reform and "real change"...

Guess what, you were already paid for this through benchmarking, and now nobody trusts you when you say you want to reform because historically you have withheld reform (or the promise of reform), until a wad of cash was thrown on the table.

Meanwhile back on the ranch in the private sector, people have had to reform without issue, just to keep the job viable, while at the same time taking pay-cuts and giving more for less renumeration, something that you guys are idealogically opposed to on every possible level.

If Cowen had continued pandering to the public sector vested interests in this upcoming budget, we would probaby have had civil unrest on the streets this month because people will not stand for this anymore, not when they are losing jobs, and their hours and salaries are being cut along with everything else.

I'll never forget the words that were spoken by union officials leaving Government Buildings yesterday, "the government have blown a GLORIOUS OPPORTUNITY to really reform the public sector"....

This kind of veiled threat to continue blocking the necessary reforms, we need to bring in legislation to deal with this, it is nothing less than thievery from the state. Change happens if progress has to be made and anyone who blocks or obstructs change, notwithstanding their natural right to be consulted and to have a valuable input, should be given a written warning and then let go if their attitude doesn't change...

Tipp Man

achtungbarry wrote: »

... ,

it's looks to me like YOUR the person who has fallen for the union propaganda hook line and sinker

seclachi

Gurgle wrote: »

Cap the salaries of bank employees at €500k for state rescued banks, then knock 12% off people earning €30k.

And nobody is screaming about this in the Dàil?
Why?

There should be an absolute cap at €150k for everybody whose salary is paid or whose employer is rescued by the state. Maybe this alone won't generate the billions in savings needed, but it would hurt a lot less to take the tax increases if we weren't paying the Pat Kennys of the world 15 times average wage.

The state arent going to enforce that cap, and with good reason, how will the banks expect to get experienced management if anybody with the credentials can just go to another bank and get paid twice the amount ?

Its the same flawed logic as piling on more to the upper band of tax, Ireland isnt some island a million miles away from anywhere else, and these people arent going to stick around out of the goodness of there hearts, they are after all already adept at dodging taxes.

Cowen would be terrified that if he did enforce it and the bank had to hire someone who was a muppet the blame would fall on the governments shoulders.

You`ll get tax osmosis, people will flock to where its cheaper and it will just cause a brain drain of highly paid positions.

Barker

I think you're going to have to start taking some of the blame yourselves people. All those who were sold over valued houses, all those who paid for over valued groceries, cars, services etc, and just thought "it's grand, I'm earning money".
It was the Irish people who allowed the country to become overvalued and quite worthless.
The question is, would you be more inclined to position A or B?
A) It is an overpaid, over inflated economy that has no competitive value, no quality of public services and needs drastic reform.
It's grand, sure I'm taking home a little less than I used to but things will be fine again in a couple of years? Sure you can even pick up a bargain these days.

There's only one way out of this quagmire and you know it...

It's going to be the only option left and it's as inevitable as night follows day... Hate to say it...

Here it is.... Going to say it quietly...


Going to whisper it...




*Privatisation of the services*.



Now go and tell everyone. Just as quietly.

See if we can persuade some poor fools to come and buy some of our "services", allow others to compete against them, and sit back and watch them try to offer better and better services at more and more competitive prices.

Lets not have any arguments about quality, now, you know there's no loss that can happen in that area.

K-9

Gurgle wrote: »

There should be an absolute cap at €150k for everybody whose salary is paid or whose employer is rescued by the state. Maybe this alone won't generate the billions in savings needed, but it would hurt a lot less to take the tax increases if we weren't paying the Pat Kennys of the world 15 times average wage.

Yeah, CEO of a bank = the wage of a site foreman, though I doubt a site foreman would get that these days.

Still though, 150k should be enough.

There's a few more who could take a hit:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-such-thing-as-a-recession-for-top-brass-in-civil-service-1903854.html

Darragh29

K-9 wrote: »

Yeah, CEO of a bank = the wage of a site foreman, though I doubt a site foreman would get that these days.

Still though, 150k should be enough.

There's a few more who could take a hit:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/no-such-thing-as-a-recession-for-top-brass-in-civil-service-1903854.html

This is one of the strategies that is being deployed by the unions, pointing at a dozen instances of people on high salaries and using it as a means to justify a situation where we continue spending half a billion for fortnight to pay for the provision of public services.

If we put every CEO of an Irish bank on the minimum wage and the CEO of every Irish company on the minimum wage to pacify these people, we would still need to come back to the discussion at hand and cut the cost of the provision of public services in this country.

We can spend all day pointing fingers at trophy houses and 500K banking salaries, we will still have to come back and deal with the matter in hand...

Barker

Darragh29 wrote: »

If we put every CEO of an Irish bank on the minimum wage and the CEO of every Irish company on the minimum wage to pacify these people, we would still need to come back to the discussion at hand and cut the cost of the provision of public services in this country.

We can spend all day pointing fingers at trophy houses and 500K banking salaries, we will still have to come back and deal with the matter in hand...

Yeah I agree, but people might feel a bit better about taking a hit if they saw that those earning unjustifiablly high wages were brought down. I think there's alot to be said for making people feel better, even if it to break the worse news.

I don't see the problem in cutting bankers and CEO's high wages. WHoever said this, are these people truly irreplaceable? Do you not think there are going to be loads of takers for these jobs from the ranks below? It's not as if you can argue that they have proved their worth...

Idbatterim

Funny how it cant be called victory when the Unions thought they could get away with their 12 extra days off were calling it a victory! If only €800,000,000 had been saved, the extra €500,000,000 would have to come from another sector of society, either those on welfare or in the Private Sector! believe me it is a victory!

Muzzer

Look the bottom line here folks is we, the Irish Republic, have voted these clowns in.

Without complete knowledge and a view of all incommings/outgoings, it is pointless to say they should do this or they should do that.

I see public workers slacking in their jobs everyday when I'm on my way to work my feckin socks off. For example, they are improving the ring road around Kilkenny and it's taking months to do.

Iv'e worked on many building sites before and I understand they are taking their time to make sure they have work for the near future but as I'm technically paying their wages I can't help but feel hard done by.

These are the only public workers I see on my way to work which makes 100% of the public sector I see SLACKERS!

They say we live within our means which is why the public sector are not happy with their comming deductions. Well tough cookie people, half the country is struggling and just like the rest of us - you should be just another statistic.

WHATS GOOD FOR THE GOOSE IS GOOD FOR THE GANDER.

Now lets get Michael O'Leary in to sort this mess out

PeakOutput

achtungbarry wrote: »

I've been reading boards and listening to people with dismay over the last few days.

We have threads started by people claiming "victory" over the public sector.

We constanly have arguments between public and private sector workers.

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves.

We even have people here saying fair play to Cowen, fair play to the FF back benchers and how Cowen is clever etc.

They certainly are clever at least.

People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

We argue.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

We are fighting amongst ourselves, reveling in each others misfortunes and these guys are laughing at us because they are getting away scot free.

Fianna Fail treat us with contempt, the bankers and builders are being bailed out by NAMA and we the ordinary people are fighting amongst ourselves.

They (Fianna Fail and their developer/banker mates) have played us for fools and I'll say it again we fell for it hook line and sinker.

It is incredible to see people praising the FF back benchers for finally "listening to the people"

"listening to the people" Bull !

They are only playing the populist card in a desperate attempt to hang on to their seats yet people here on boards and elsewhere have fallen for it.

If there has been any "victory" here, it is not the general public over the public sector or "people power" or anything else.

The only victory over the last few days is by thiose who got us in to this mess (FF, bankers, developers). They have us fighting amongst ourselves instead of calling for their heads.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

right now its time to fix the mess

then its time to worry about who got us into this mess

sorting the public sector helps us fix the mess faster

going on a rampage of punishment while satisfying wont fix the economy

Gurgle

Gurgle wrote: »

Cap the salaries of bank employees at €500k for state rescued banks, then knock 12% off people earning €30k.

And nobody is screaming about this in the Dàil?
Why?

There should be an absolute cap at €150k for everybody whose salary is paid or whose employer is rescued by the state. Maybe this alone won't generate the billions in savings needed, but it would hurt a lot less to take the tax increases if we weren't paying the Pat Kennys of the world 15 times average wage.

Oh for heavens sake.
Think about what you are saying.

Firstly, moneys thrown at the banks are entirely independent of the nearly 500 million a week we are borrowing to run the country.
This country wouldnt have got the money it's lent to the banks for any other purpose and definitely not to pay public servants.
Secondly,Moneys lent to the banks have to be paid back with interest [8% I believe]
Thirdly,Money's going to Nama would have to be paid out even if we nationalised the banks because when we nationalise them we'd be taking on their liabilities aswell.
Fourthly,We need indiginous banks here so we had to do something.God help us if we were depending on British based banks and no competition.


So really hitting public service pay packets is necessary because the borrowing capacity and the taxing capacity can't keep up with the crazy expense of it all.


As regards bankers salaries...The problem is [unpalatable as it may be],we live in a global world where paying senior bankers in most western countries hundreds of thousands is the norm..even after this financial crisis.
Trying to impose ridiculously low caps in Ireland would soon drain the banks here of the clever people and we'd be left with the dross.
Ergo €500,000 as a cap seems reasonable to me.


Those are the facts.

Darragh29

Barker wrote: »

Yeah I agree, but people might feel a bit better about taking a hit if they saw that those earning unjustifiablly high wages were brought down. I think there's alot to be said for making people feel better, even if it to break the worse news.

I don't see the problem in cutting bankers and CEO's high wages. WHoever said this, are these people truly irreplaceable? Do you not think there are going to be loads of takers for these jobs from the ranks below? It's not as if you can argue that they have proved their worth...

Well I agree, but if we take your point a step further, some of those who were walking out of government buildings yesterday evening with their poker faces still on them, claiming to represent hard pressed public sector workers, their salaries paid by low paid public sector worker union fee's, are paid several multiples of the average industrial wage.

If union members can handle a substantially overpaid union official going into Government Buildings to do their batting for them, why or how have they got an issue with people being overpaid in other industries???

PeakOutput

Gurgle wrote: »

There should be an absolute cap at €150k for everybody whose salary is paid or whose employer is rescued by the state. Maybe this alone won't generate the billions in savings needed, but it would hurt a lot less to take the tax increases if we weren't paying the Pat Kennys of the world 15 times average wage.

pat kenny is self employed

i think he is a boring ****e but loads of irish people apparently love him. if rte dosnt pay tv3 will then the people who like pat kenny will watch tv3 then rte will make less from advertising and therefore earn less money.you really have no idea what your talking about

If you believe that Public Sector workers are universally overpaid compared to private sector workers at equivalent levels of skill, education and experience then you have been played.

that is irrelevant. it dosnt matter weather what they are earning is too much or too little. what matters is we cant afford to pay what they are earning right now and therefore it needs to be cut to a level we can afford. its very very simple maths column a + column b must be less or equal to column c(the tax revenue)

Yeah I agree, but people might feel a bit better about taking a hit if they saw that those earning unjustifiablly high wages were brought down. I think there's alot to be said for making people feel better, even if it to break the worse news.

who are you to say they are unjustifiable? personally i dont want someone earning 150K a year to be in charge of a bank and therefore in control of billions and billions of euro

I don't see the problem in cutting bankers and CEO's high wages. WHoever said this, are these people truly irreplaceable? Do you not think there are going to be loads of takers for these jobs from the ranks below? It's not as if you can argue that they have proved their worth

aib just tried to hire a new ceo from outside the country under the salary cap. they couldnt. the result of this is someone from the old guard getting promoted to the position. so no new blood no new ideas just someone whose only experience is how e have been doing it already.

if we could get the two top banking guys in the world to run our banks but it cost 5million each imo we should do it. you get what you pay for imo

gleep

hiorta wrote: »

This unfailing tactic is better known as 'divide and rule'.
Politicians, financiers, clergy, business, retailers have been employing this scam fo centuries.

+1 - And it works every time. But after two decades of of using our money buying people's votes, Fianna Fail have sucked us dry, now they're picking sides, I just hope that the majority are not fooled again.

Barker

Yeah. 14% unemployment. It's huge. 425000 or thereabouts on the live register. Thats over 14% of the working age population (using my own very quick calculations based on 2006 census and ignoring the over 65s and children under 15).

The problem is that public sector workers only talk to other public sector workers in the work place. So they can't feel the agony that is there for those people who have been put into this position. They are not seeing their workmates laid off in droves, wondering is it going to be them next and their family who have to cancel christmas.

They are removed from it, and they represent the largest section of the populace that can make a difference to the overspending. I can understand why they feel they are being picked on as a group, it's because they are! For a good reason. There's not enough tax payers left to justify your holidays, sick days, duvet days or whatever else you get as perks. I certainly hope they don't get christmas bonuses.

I recall plenty of public servants who have taken a paid duvet day because they decided they had worked hard and deserved it. Anyone who has done that deserves everything that comes to them. A friend of mine reports getting a text during the strike from a teacher that read "Anyone coming for Strike Pints?". Other teacher friends seem to have taken laods of holidays abroad too this year. Its a different feckin world I tell ya.

Barker

Darragh29 wrote: »

If union members can handle a substantially overpaid union official going into Government Buildings to do their batting for them, why or how have they got an issue with people being overpaid in other industries???

Agreed. With passion.

hinault

I disagree about the CEO situation at AIB.

The United States of America has ordered that all those banks who received govt help must adopt a salary cap $500k per annum.
(That's about €375k).
That policy has been applied without fear or favour.
You get bailed by the State, you play by State rules.

AIB (and BOI and all the rest of them) were bailed out here.
The govt should insist on the salary cap.


IF THESE BANKERS WERE AS COMPETENT AS THEY MAKE OUT, THEY WOULD NEVER HAVE NEEDED STATE HELP IN THE FIRST PLACE!



Of course, the govt could have the let the banks collapse - then how would would-be CEO's feel?

This business about the banks being unable to hire a CEO for €500k is just another lie from the banking sector.

Barker

PeakOutput wrote: »

if we could get the two top banking guys in the world to run our banks but it cost 5million each imo we should do it. you get what you pay for imo

So we should have paid more for the bankers over the last few years and we wouldn't be in this mess, is that what you infer?

gleep

PeakOutput wrote: »

aib just tried to hire a new ceo from outside the country under the salary cap. they couldnt. the result of this is someone from the old guard getting promoted to the position. so no new blood no new ideas just someone whose only experience is how e have been doing it already.

if we could get the two top banking guys in the world to run our banks but it cost 5million each imo we should do it. you get what you pay for imo

The man who ran HSBC into the ground was considered a top banker. He is now overseeing NAMA.
We don't need anyone who has been running a bank that has gone bust, (these guys are still lauded as the Top Men in Banking),we need someone who's presided over a prudent yet profitable bank. Pay them double what their earning now to get them in, if neccessary.

dvpower

Gurgle wrote: »

There should be an absolute cap at €150k for everybody whose salary is paid or whose employer is rescued by the state.

Why?
As collective punishment? Even for people whose skills are hard to find and who worked in divisions that had nothing to do with the current crisis?

hinault

gleep wrote: »

The man who ran HSBC into the ground was considered a top banker. He is now overseeing NAMA.
We don't need anyone who has been running a bank that has gone bust, (these guys are still lauded as the Top Men in Banking),we need someone who's presided over a prudent yet profitable bank. Pay them double what their earning now to get them in, if neccessary.

Exactly.

The profits reported by AIB and BOI from 2003-2008 were not profits.
They couldn't be.

It's clear that the banks have been insolvent for the past few years - because their loans (which is income, in the banks books), have now turned to dust (because the loans cannot be repaid by the people who borrowed those loans).

Brian Goggin - BOI CEO - received €23m in salary and benefits in 2003-2008.

The banks profits were delusional.
The CEO's pay was delusional because it was base don false profits.

And youc an apply that across the entire Irish banking sector.

Darragh29

It's funny how the people telling us that someone else must pay are all in the 100K plus club, union officials, TD's, bank CEO's...

seclachi

PeakOutput wrote: »

pat kenny is self employed

i think he is a boring ****e but loads of irish people apparently love him. if rte dosnt pay tv3 will then the people who like pat kenny will watch tv3 then rte will make less from advertising and therefore earn less money.you really have no idea what your talking about

Pat Kenny only gets paid what he does because RTE has two extra sources of income that TV3 doesnt, licence fees and government funding. There is no way TV3 could possibly pay him what RTE do, he would actually get a realistic wage there. This is the problem with government funding, when the cash is free and easy people become sloppy with it. Fair play to TV3 in my books, they have to make do in a horribly unbalanced market.

hinault wrote: »

I disagree about the CEO situation at AIB.

The United States of America has ordered that all those banks who received govt help must adopt a salary cap $500k per annum.
(That's about €375k).
That policy has been applied without fear or favour.
You get bailed by the State, you play by State rules.

Ireland and America are not the same place, were a small nation while america is huge, in order for us to do the to same thing we would have to convince the entire EU to cap wages in order to stop the bankers from going to the UK or mainland.

In the US they are pretty much limited to canada and mexico, I cant imagine insane wages in mexico, and there would be alot of competition for Canada. the US banks have take there cut and lump it.

I am disgusted by the banks though, the government should have sweeped out the old management, they clearly are still trying to save there own necks through this whole thing.

jetsonx

achtungbarry wrote: »

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves. People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

Excellent Posting. The government have treated us like kids as we squable over the crumbs ( 4 Billion Euro) of a huge credit binge...while they p1ss away 28 Billion to Anglo-Irish and 24 Billion to AIB. This is the real issue. The strategy of the government worked a charm. The Joe Duffy brigade have fallen for it, the Unions have fallen for it and it makes great newsprint for the newspapers as all the public V private workers go for each others throats.

Funny how Nama never went to referendum.

As the fighting continues the bankers, developers, legal profession, "consultants" are all planning their next feast from the giant NAMA coffers. They all must get up in the morning and laugh to themselves as a complete monkey has been made of the average-wage, 3 bedroom-semi working person in Ireland.

The circus will continue.

seclachi

jetsonx wrote: »

Funny how Nama never went to referendum.

They were quite right, judging from the bile im hearing from everybody in the country every attempt a solution that a bank would have benefited from would have been shot down.

A country cant be managed on public opinion alone...

Daithinski

PeakOutput wrote: »

right now its time to fix the mess

then its time to worry about who got us into this mess

sorting the public sector helps us fix the mess faster

going on a rampage of punishment while satisfying wont fix the economy

No, but it might stop the us peasants revolting if we see the people that caused this mess, having to take a proportionate dose of pain.

jetsonx

jetsonx wrote: »

Excellent Posting. The government have treated us like kids as we squable over the crumbs ( 4 Billion Euro) of a huge credit binge...while they p1ss away 28 Billion to Anglo-Irish and 24 Billion to AIB. This is the real issue. The strategy of the government worked a charm. The Joe Duffy brigade have fallen for it, the Unions have fallen for it and it makes great newsprint for the newspapers as all the public V private workers go for each others throats.

Funny how Nama never went to referendum.

As the fighting continues the bankers, developers, legal profession, "consultants" are all planning their next feast from the giant NAMA coffers. They all must get up in the morning and laugh to themselves as a complete monkey has been made of the average-wage, 3 bedroom-semi working person in Ireland.

The circus will continue.

Thats just more un thought out rubbish...

Are you listening to reason at all?
What do you think international bankers would say if the government asked for €20 billion to run the country??!!

As regards Nama not going to referendum...tell me does a budget ever go to referendum? or most government decisions?
Did the nationalisation or bail out of any of the other western countries banks go to referendum?
No
Reason-because governing isn't easy and the time to throw out this one comes in 2012.
If we had to put things to a referendum everytime theres hard decisions to be made,we'd be in a state of anarchy.
Everything would grind to a halt.



Do you realise that even if we nationalised the banks,we'd end up with their liabilities? so no way out really.
Not that that has anything to do with the totally independent problem that we spend almost 500 million more than we earn to pay for our public service.
That has to stop.

Darragh29

jetsonx wrote: »

Excellent Posting. The government have treated us like kids as we squable over the crumbs ( 4 Billion Euro) of a huge credit binge...while they p1ss away 28 Billion to Anglo-Irish and 24 Billion to AIB. This is the real issue. The strategy of the government worked a charm. The Joe Duffy brigade have fallen for it, the Unions have fallen for it and it makes great newsprint for the newspapers as all the public V private workers go for each others throats.

Funny how Nama never went to referendum.

As the fighting continues the bankers, developers, legal profession, "consultants" are all planning their next feast from the giant NAMA coffers. They all must get up in the morning and laugh to themselves as a complete monkey has been made of the average-wage, 3 bedroom-semi working person in Ireland.

The circus will continue.

The political system has failed in this country. You can't even ask for a general election anymore because the opposition are worse than the people in government. Imagine the people who stood up to the plate back in 1916, being afraid to make a break for it because the alternative would be even worse than what they were trying to overthrow????

Well Darragh,you have people to blame for that not the parties really.
Theres no concensus among the people and the opposition are playing a fine line trying to be populist.

FG have some sense.
Labours problem is they are too close to the unions.
I heard Eamon Gilmore side stepping the 12 days leave issue on news talk yesterday altogether.
He just did not want to give a view on it and this looked to me like he didn't want to upset the unions.

I don't trust people who try to be all things to all men and women.

I do think the guy is trying to be as sincere as possible but his hands are tied.

kaymin

Deleted User wrote: »

Thats just more un thought out rubbish...

Are you listening to reason at all?
What do you think international bankers would say if the government asked for €20 billion to run the country??!!

But Ireland is already going to the international markets looking to raise this amount of money - you can see what the international bankers are saying - they're demanding higher interest rates.

Deleted User wrote: »

As regards Nama not going to referendum...tell me does a budget ever go to referendum? or most government decisions?
Did the nationalisation or bail out of any of the other western countries banks go to referendum?
No
Reason-because governing isn't easy and the time to throw out this one comes in 2012.
If we had to put things to a referendum everytime theres hard decisions to be made,we'd be in a state of anarchy.
Everything would grind to a halt.

I think something as big as NAMA / bank bailouts should go to a referendum as it will affect generations to come. The fact that the government has such a low level of support from the public makes a referendum even more necessary.

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you realise that even if we nationalised the banks,we'd end up with their liabilities? so no way out really.

How about wiping out the equity shareholders and forcing the bond holders to suffer some of the pain? Nationalisation v NAMA are the not the only alternatives.

Deleted User wrote: »

Not that that has anything to do with the totally independent problem that we spend almost 500 million more than we earn to pay for our public service.
That has to stop.

Amen

irish_bob

achtungbarry wrote: »

I've been reading boards and listening to people with dismay over the last few days.

We have threads started by people claiming "victory" over the public sector.

We constanly have arguments between public and private sector workers.

All week I have heard pepole bashing the public sector and public sector people defending themselves.

We even have people here saying fair play to Cowen, fair play to the FF back benchers and how Cowen is clever etc.

They certainly are clever at least.

People, they have played you all and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

We argue.

All the while folks............. nobody is talking about how to deal with how to deal with those who got us in to this mess in the first place

ie. Fianna Fail, the bankers and the developers.

We are fighting amongst ourselves, reveling in each others misfortunes and these guys are laughing at us because they are getting away scot free.

Fianna Fail treat us with contempt, the bankers and builders are being bailed out by NAMA and we the ordinary people are fighting amongst ourselves.

They (Fianna Fail and their developer/banker mates) have played us for fools and I'll say it again we fell for it hook line and sinker.

It is incredible to see people praising the FF back benchers for finally "listening to the people"

"listening to the people" Bull !

They are only playing the populist card in a desperate attempt to hang on to their seats yet people here on boards and elsewhere have fallen for it.

If there has been any "victory" here, it is not the general public over the public sector or "people power" or anything else.

The only victory over the last few days is by thiose who got us in to this mess (FF, bankers, developers). They have us fighting amongst ourselves instead of calling for their heads.

They have played us for fools and we fell for it.

straight from s.i.p.t.u headquaters

Darragh29

Deleted User wrote: »

Well Darragh,you have people to blame for that not the parties really.
Theres no concensus among the people and the opposition are playing a fine line trying to be populist.

FG have some sense.
Labours problem is they are too close to the unions.
I heard Eamon Gilmore side stepping the 12 days leave issue on news talk yesterday altogether.
He just did not want to give a view on it and this looked to me like he didn't want to upset the unions.

I don't trust people who try to be all things to all men and women.

I do think the guy is trying to be as sincere as possible but his hands are tied.

Well my view on this is that I think I'm a pretty good judge of character. I've worked for myself for a good few years now and I think I can say I've developed a pretty well honed sense now for those with ability, those with none, those who think they have but haven't and those that are downright useless, those that think they are entitled and those that think they have landed a cushy number...

I look at Eamon Gilmore and Enda Kenny and I see two useless people who in all probability don't know the price of a sliced pan or a jug of milk, but feel qualified to tell us that they know how to fix the problems of this country...

This country has one major problem and only one problem and that is that is suffers from what I call pseudo-leaders. Not just in the world of politics, but you can see it here now in full flight, in business, we don't have real leaders anywhere in this country. We have people who think they are leaders but who lack the attributes that real leaders have. They can give you the buzz words and play bullsh*t bingo with you all day long, but give them a real problem to resolve and they are bamboozled.

We can see it in our workplaces every single day, the boss who drives into work in the '09 BMW 5 Series but can't manage anything, he can't deal with problems, he can't get people to work towards a common purpose, so people leave because they become frustrated with his "leadership/management style"...

There was a saying years ago that "the mere desire to be a politican ought immediately to disqualify a person from ever becoming one" and I think this is very appropriate to this country...

Eamon Gilmore talks as if he is up there somewhere above us, he comes across as an aloof gimp. Up until last week, he was talking pure and utter SH*TE about "finding efficiencies and hidden savings", talking in the politically coded bullsh*t language of evasion again and making fools of the rest of us in the process...

I don't want to be spoken down to by Eamon Gilmore and downright patronised by a man who thinks I am so thick, that I'll believe him when he says that there are 1.3 billion Euro's worth of "hidden savings and efficiencies" in the public sector and that we can keep over paying our public sector workers and somehow spend the next ten years rooting and rummaging around for these elusive savings and efficiencies, while the unions obstruct change and reform...

hinault

Darragh29 wrote: »

This country has one major problem and only one problem and that is that is suffers from what I call pseudo-leaders. Not just in the world of politics, but you can see it here now in full flight, in business, we don't have real leaders anywhere in this country. We have people who think they are leaders but who lack the attributes that real leaders have. They can give you the buzz words and play bullsh*t bingo with you all day long, but give them a real problem to resolve and they are bamboozled.

We can see it in our workplaces every single day, the boss who drives into work in the '09 BMW 5 Series but can't manage anything, he can't deal with problems, he can't get people to work towards a common purpose, so people leave because they become frustrated with his "leadership/management style"...

I think this goes for all sectors, politics/banking/medical profession, another.

In most cases the useless get to the top of the pile:)

Do you think that Prof.Bredan Drumm could run an A&E ward?
Do you think Eugene Sheehy could sit at a till all day and reconcile his takings/outgoings at the end of the day?
I doubt it.

Could Eugene Sheehy actually explain to me the workings of the international financial markets?
Probably not.

The people at the top are there - they're supposed to hire the best talent available to get the job done and they're supposed to manage that talent. That's how it would appear.

irish_bob

Barker wrote: »

Yeah. 14% unemployment. It's huge. 425000 or thereabouts on the live register. Thats over 14% of the working age population (using my own very quick calculations based on 2006 census and ignoring the over 65s and children under 15).

The problem is that public sector workers only talk to other public sector workers in the work place. So they can't feel the agony that is there for those people who have been put into this position. They are not seeing their workmates laid off in droves, wondering is it going to be them next and their family who have to cancel christmas.

They are removed from it, and they represent the largest section of the populace that can make a difference to the overspending. I can understand why they feel they are being picked on as a group, it's because they are! For a good reason. There's not enough tax payers left to justify your holidays, sick days, duvet days or whatever else you get as perks. I certainly hope they don't get christmas bonuses.

I recall plenty of public servants who have taken a paid duvet day because they decided they had worked hard and deserved it. Anyone who has done that deserves everything that comes to them. A friend of mine reports getting a text during the strike from a teacher that read "Anyone coming for Strike Pints?". Other teacher friends seem to have taken laods of holidays abroad too this year. Its a different feckin world I tell ya.

excellent post , in terms of workplace , the public sector is still living in a pre rescession bubble , they have not witnessed mass lay offs , thier wages are still ( excluding the average 4% levy ) at boom time levels for the most part , as such , they cant see what all the fuss is about when they cry UNFAIR at the mention of their wages being reduced , the public sectors rescesson ( and it will be mild compared to that experienced by most people )has only really begun , two years after it hit everyone else

Darragh29

hinault wrote: »

I think this goes for all sectors, politics/banking/medical profession, another.

In most cases the useless get to the top of the pile:)

Do you think that Prof.Bredan Drumm could run an A&E ward?
Do you think Eugene Sheehy could sit at a till all day and reconcile his takings/outgoings at the end of the day?
I doubt it.

Could Eugene Sheehy actually explain to me the workings of the international financial markets?
Probably not.

The people at the top are there - they're supposed to hire the best talent available to get the job done and they're supposed to manage that talent. That's how it would appear.

The source of this problem is that our people and country are inherently corrupt. We have all probably worked in a job where those that got into management positions are related to the business owner or play golf with the decision makers.

Think about this, humans are the most complex entities on the universe, we wouldn't let an unqualfiied pilot take a 737 out of Dublin airport, but we allow people with no qualification whatsoever get into management and leadership positions in this country, without question or concern to our own welfare.

Leadership is something that we don't take seriously in this country, we fail to see the value of real leadership, we listen to the surface argument all the time and fail to probe and subject to proper scrutiny, those that put themselves up for leadership positions in this country...

Thankfully this crisis we are in, might make us change our attitude in this regard...

irish_bob

Barker wrote: »

So we should have paid more for the bankers over the last few years and we wouldn't be in this mess, is that what you infer?

the banking crisis only compounds our problems , it is not the reason we are short revenue , nor is it the reason public sector wages and wellfare must be cut , the collapse of the property boom which employed thousands and which taxes funded the highest paid public sector in europe , is the reason we are where we are , many countries have a banking crisis , only ireland had a one trick pony economy and a gargantuan public spending bill to fund with this now dead pony

Darragh29

irish_bob wrote: »

the banking crisis only compounds our problems , it is not the reason we are short revenue , nor is it the reason public sector wages and wellfare must be cut , the collapse of the property boom which employed thousands and which taxes funded the highest paid public sector in europe , is the reason we are where we are , many countries have a banking crisis , only ireland had a one trick pony economy and a gargantuan public spending bill to fund with this now dead pony

The thing is, this problem is actually resolved easily enough. We just need to go back to before the boom (I think we are already there), and start creating new jobs, there is plenty of money in this economy, people are just not spending it because they are terrified out of their wits...

There is no leadership so nothing happens, because our leaders are so weak, what we need to do now is get rid of this government, and start working on a new political entity that represents those out there that have hope and that want to trade their way out of this absolute mess...

hinault

Darragh29 wrote: »

The source of this problem is that our people and country are inherently corrupt. We have all probably worked in a job where those that got into management positions are related to the business owner or play golf with the decision makers.

Think about this, humans are the most complex entities on the universe, we wouldn't let an unqualfiied pilot take a 737 out of Dublin airport, but we allow people with no qualification whatsoever get into management and leadership positions in this country, without question or concern to our own welfare.

Leadership is something that we don't take seriously in this country, we fail to see the value of real leadership, we listen to the surface argument all the time and fail to probe and subject to proper scrutiny, those that put themselves up for leadership positions in this country...

Thankfully this crisis we are in, might make us change our attitude in this regard...

................but you seem to be focussing solely on the politicians.
Are you seriously trying to suggest that the CEO's of the banks, fulfill any leadership criteria?
Banks that were supposedly making billions in profits between 2000-2008 suddenly turned to dust!


What about the dearth of leadership at the top of the HSE, Dept of Finance, AIB, Anglo Irish?

The politicians are culpable..............but so are the people at the top of the Dept of Finance, HSE, FAS, AIB.