Affordable Membership

Unglika Norse

No skin off of my nose but this might be of interest to some of you out there looking for an affordable way to keep your handicaps. If it offends the posting rules mods feel free to delete the post

http://www.ballinloughcastle.com/id23_club_development_.htm

Atlantic1

I've often heard that Abbeyfeale and Slievenamon have a similar "understanding" with a lot of members who don't live close by.

I might be wrong and I'm sure the Mods will remove if I'm mistaken.

PhilipMarlowe

I love the picture of St. Andrews on the top of the "about us" page

Maverick.ie

LOL shure we might as well think big Liksy,

vedwards

Note:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Due to weather conditions this offer is temporarily suspended[/FONT]

http://www.ballinloughcastle.com/id140_team_1_.htm

GreeBo

Maybe Im way off, but it seems to me that the GUI wouldnt be over the moon about this. I cant put my finger on anything specificly "wrong" with it, but it just doesnt sit right with me.

Par71

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe Im way off, but it seems to me that the GUI wouldnt be over the moon about this. I cant put my finger on anything specificly "wrong" with it, but it just doesnt sit right with me.

Dont see much worng with it myself. Golf is a changing game clubs have to move with the times. Gives everybody the oppertunity to play golf with a GUI handicap. Well done to them I say. Good business.

Sandwich

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe Im way off, but it seems to me that the GUI wouldnt be over the moon about this. I cant put my finger on anything specificly "wrong" with it, but it just doesnt sit right with me.

Greebo, is your unease due to a dramatic undercutting of membership prices, or a deliberate effective selling of GUI handicaps to people who wont really be members in the traditional sense? Or other?

GreeBo

Sandwich wrote: »

Greebo, is your unease due to a dramatic undercutting of membership prices, or a deliberate effective selling of GUI handicaps to people who wont really be members in the traditional sense? Or other?

I think its the idea of giving away GUI membership on the back of CornFlakes boxes. Its open to people abusing it IMO.
Is the handicap sec in that club really going to be checking up on away scores for 300 country members?

Also, whats in it for this club? Are those €300 going to make that much of a difference to them?

I'm not too fond of the "undercutting" either, but the membership part is more worrying to me as I think most golfers will pay more for something "better" so it wont impact the numbers for most clubs (might even increase green fees for them!)

Par71

GreeBo wrote: »

I think its the idea of giving away GUI membership on the back of CornFlakes boxes. Its open to people abusing it IMO.
Is the handicap sec in that club really going to be checking up on away scores for 300 country members?

Also, whats in it for this club? Are those €300 going to make that much of a difference to them?

I'm not too fond of the "undercutting" either, but the membership part is more worrying to me as I think most golfers will pay more for something "better" so it wont impact the numbers for most clubs (might even increase green fees for them!)

Im sure every penny received by any club in these times makes a difference.
Golf is an honest game played by honest people, sure you are going to get the odd cheat here and the odd cheat there, as you will in a "Members Club" the current handicap system is already well abused anyway. What is the worst that can happen anyway.

And the cost for a GUI membership is only €50. It is in my opinion you get what you pay for, if people are happy to have that as thier home club why not. Lets not forget its the prestige of the club that ups the price.

stumpypeeps

A lot of people can't afford membership, especially in the greater Dublin area. If they want a handicap so as to compete in open competitions, whose to say they are more likely to abuse the system. There are plenty doing it as full members in all clubs.

Sandwich

GreeBo wrote: »

I think its the idea of giving away GUI membership on the back of CornFlakes boxes. Its open to people abusing it IMO.
Is the handicap sec in that club really going to be checking up on away scores for 300 country members?

Was guessing that was the issue and share your concern.
But rather than the GUI being unhappy about it, is the root problem here not of their own making - a handicap system that is too lax in the golf required to maintain an official handicap?
And up to them to tighten up the situation. People joining distant clubs, which they never really play (or turn up, play 3 rounds and get a very dodgy handicap), simply because it permits them to claim a GUI handicap with the credibility/approval that suggests, is something the GUI leaves itself open to.
IMO, the system is far too lenient and is what drives the promotion and take up of these types of deals.
A GUI handicap should distinguish itself from a society/parttime handicap more rigorously, requiring regular play of qualifying competitions so that its aim to accurately relfect a persons current playing ability has genuine credibility. I would propose at least 3 qualifying comps in your home club in the preceding 3 months from March -October.
It would cut out some of the messing withing clubs also.

bogmanfan

GreeBo wrote: »

Also, whats in it for this club? Are those €300 going to make that much of a difference to them?

Have a look at fairway.ie. Gives stats on most clubs in the country. Slievenamon Golf Club (probably the most well known 'distance membership' club in the country) has a whopping 1,932 members :eek:
Even if most of these are only paying the e180 per year, that should be enough to ensure the club survives this economic crisis... I can see a hell of a lot of people opting for 'distance membership' this year. Cheap way of maintaing your handicap.

GreeBo

bogmanfan wrote: »

Have a look at fairway.ie. Gives stats on most clubs in the country. Slievenamon Golf Club (probably the most well known 'distance membership' club in the country) has a whopping 1,932 members :eek:

Thats a bit of a joke to be honest.
Its clearly a money making exercise, you would need 3 courses to fulfill those players "rights".
Personally I agree that you should have to play X singles competitions a year for your handicap to be valid in any club other than your own.
And I would set this quite high, like 10-15.

Sounds like a good idea for a separate thread/poll.

bogmanfan

I agree that 1,932 members is a bit of a joke. However, I'd say the vast majority of them have played there 3 times to get their handicap and then never saw the place again. Whether this is a bad thing or not is a different question. In my opinion, lots of golfers like me just want a handicap for work societies, or even for skins games with their mates. Never really intend to play in competitions or on teams. Distance membership is an affordable way to do this, and a handy source of revenue for the clubs that offer it.

GreeBo

bogmanfan wrote: »

In my opinion, lots of golfers like me just want a handicap for work societies, or even for skins games with their mates. Never really intend to play in competitions or on teams.

But if this is all you do then your handicap is not really valid IMO and its unfair if you are comparing this handicap against a guy who has a "proper" GUI handicap and plays qualifying comps every week.

Why do you need a GUI handicap at all if you are only playing amongst friends?

ShriekingSheet

Par71 wrote: »

Golf is an honest game played by honest people, sure you are going to get the odd cheat here and the odd cheat there, as you will in a "Members Club" the current handicap system is already well abused anyway. What is the worst that can happen anyway.

I agree with Greebo here (for once!) and I think the above really is the crooks of the matter.

The honesty in the game Par71 mentions did not appear out of thin air. The honesty is founded in an appreciation of the rules which, in my opinion, is a product of the club environment. I just don't think a player gets the same grounding in the game from playing the odd game with the same three buddies in a few open comps a year.

Our club has taken in 50 new members in the last few months, and I've met a good few of them. I've found it fascinating watching them question and figure out things as they go, from getting a handicap, or transferring a h'cap from another club, to clarifying local rules, matchplay formats etc. They'd been playing casual golf for a number of years and were, in their case, pretty clueless.

But they take it all in because they're surrounded by people to ask every weekend. Many are absolute novices, yet will be playing in Medals and Captain's Prize days next year, they'll need to learn fast and they will.

Society days, and corporate days are much more casual. A few people who just want a handicap for these are wondering what our problem is. I'd suggest that the handicap system is a great one, with strict guidelines to allow players of all levels compete fairly against each other. But when it's treated casually, it is undermined.

If you want to play corporate/society golf - you dont need a GUI h'cap.
If you cant afford a home club and just want a game- avail of the many cheap green fees, open fairways etc whenever you can play. You can even get away with playing in 90% of Open Days - just don't submit a card.
But if you want to compete for prizes in Open Days - you need a properly monitored h'cap.

Personally, I don't blame the players, I blame the clubs involved in handing out h'caps like confetti.

spacecoyote

I have my GUI, but its not used in the society I play with, ie GUI is currently 22, society handicap is 12. I didn't get to play much golf at all this year to be honest outside the society, probably only got in 5-6 rounds at the club. If the rules were changed I'd be looking at loosing my handicap, which I would be fairly peeved with. Planning to get out on a weekly basis next year and aiming to get the GUI down a lot closer to the society one.

I do think its a system thats open to abuse alright, but people have to start somewhere. I was very annoyed with the lack of golf I got to play this year, a lot of it was out of my hands unfortunately, and I don't think it would be fair to be punished because of that.

So, I guess you have to allow for peoples circumstances to some extent. I don't think you'll ever eradicate cheaters from any competitive sport unfortunately, but I'm generally playing against myself, so if others want to cheat and keep a high handicap then its their loss.

bixbox

Maybe I don't understand the big picture, but why the GUI handicap is tied to the membership of a club?

If the GUI member certify each other score what is the value added by a club?

Kindest Regards

bix

ShriekingSheet

bixbox wrote: »

Maybe I don't understand the big picture, but why the GUI handicap is tied to the membership of a club?

If the GUI member certify each other score what is the value added by a club?

Kindest Regards

bix

That's the whole point. The club monitors the handicap (what happens the "certified score" when the card is put in the box?). Common practice was people payed membership to be members, and play regular golf somewhere they could be monitored.

Now this business of Away Membership means the player has little or nothing to do with the club, and this disconnect means little or no monitoring of the h'cap.

bixbox

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

That's the whole point. The club monitors the handicap (what happens the "certified score" when the card is put in the box?). Common practice was people payed membership to be members, and play regular golf somewhere they could be monitored.

Now this business of Away Membership means the player has little or nothing to do with the club, and this disconnect means little or no monitoring of the h'cap.

Ok I understand this point but in term of monitoring, what a club can really do other than the card is compiled correctly.

I mean I sign a card that is compiled by my playing partner, so the real monitoring is done by the member of GUI not by the club.

am I wrong?

P.S. I'm a golf newbie.

Maverick.ie

changed my mind about the post, I couldn't be bothered to reply to some of the really condesending posts above from people who make assumptions.

Par71

Guys I think you are missing the point here, firstly the GUI have to accept a club to be afiliated to them, thus allowing them to submit GUI handicaps to thier members. A club sees a niche in the Market and goes for it, fair play to them. It's down to the GUI to make sure handicaps are not abused no matter how people receive them. There is nothing wrong with what these people are doing so don't run them down.

Every player who plays in a GUI event thier scores are entered into the GUI database after play. With this in place how can you hide behind your handicap?you play your round shoot a score and post it. Simple a computer program works out your handicap. If it was a stupid handicap you received when joining an away club you will soon be down to your correct h/c.

HonSec

Par71 wrote: »

Guys I think you are missing the point here, firstly the GUI have to accept a club to be afiliated to them, thus allowing them to submit GUI handicaps to thier members. A club sees a niche in the Market and goes for it, fair play to them. It's down to the GUI to make sure handicaps are not abused no matter how people receive them. There is nothing wrong with what these people are doing so don't run them down.

Every player who plays in a GUI event thier scores are entered into the GUI database after play. With this in place how can you hide behind your handicap?you play your round shoot a score and post it. Simple a computer program works out your handicap. If it was a stupid handicap you received when joining an away club you will soon be down to your correct h/c.

This is correct, under the Unified Scratch Score and Handicapping system each entry into a qualifying competition is logged and returned to the players home club.

It would be therefore quite easy to regulate players play away from home or indeed distant members.

To suggest that a player who has an away handicap may somehow be abusing the system would not be correct.

If a handicap committee are doing their job, large anomolies in handicaps should not occur. These will also show up in the end of year review which every club now carry's out on evry registered players handicap, the details of which are then passed to the GUI

PhilipMarlowe

Singles competitions will largely take care of themselves but how can you expect a handicap committee (of what, 3 or 4 people?) to do a review of 2,000 members at the end of year... bearing in mind that the majority of these people are unknown to them and all they have to go on are whatever cards they get returned to them.
In a regular members club at least the people would be known in the club and their ability would be widely known also. I'm not saying that there aren't people who manage their handicaps in every club - just that it's obviously easier to do if you are a faceless name, not playing in singles but only in classics.

Affordable membership in itself isn't a bad thing. It's the "7 minute abs" style race to the bottom which is an issue for me.

stumpypeeps

Licksy wrote: »

Singles competitions will largely take care of themselves but how can you expect a handicap committee (of what, 3 or 4 people?) to do a review of 2,000 members at the end of year... bearing in mind that the majority of these people are unknown to them and all they have to go on are whatever cards they get returned to them.
In a regular members club at least the people would be known in the club and their ability would be widely known also. I'm not saying that there aren't people who manage their handicaps in every club - just that it's obviously easier to do if you are a faceless name, not playing in singles but only in classics.

Affordable membership in itself isn't a bad thing. It's the "7 minute abs" style race to the bottom which is an issue for me.

I don't understand why anyone would want to have a high handicap just so as to win some prizes. I thought the whole point was to improve and lower your handicap accordingly.

GreeBo

Par71 wrote: »

It's down to the GUI to make sure handicaps are not abused no matter how people receive them. There is nothing wrong with what these people are doing so don't run them down.

How can the GUI monitor someone who is playing in society/social golf 5 times a week?

Par71 wrote: »

Every player who plays in a GUI event thier scores are entered into the GUI database after play. With this in place how can you hide behind your handicap?you play your round shoot a score and post it. Simple a computer program works out your handicap. If it was a stupid handicap you received when joining an away club you will soon be down to your correct h/c.

Again, the issue with this away membership with no minimum cards handed in means that you can hand in 3 cards and get a g'cap of 20 and then play opens/society/etc golf for years and still be off an official GUI handicap of 20.

charlieIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

How can the GUI monitor someone who is playing in society/social golf 5 times a week?

like me, i never missed a week for about 16 weeks solid during the summer (sometimes playing twice a week) but it was all social golf with my bro in law / nephew or a mate. My club have no idea how i'm playing apart from a hello & chat in the pro shop on the way out or chatting to someone in the clubhouse after a round.

At the moment - i just have no interest in competitionas.

ShriekingSheet

Maverick.ie wrote: »

changed my mind about the post, I couldn't be bothered to reply to some of the really condesending posts above from people who make assumptions.

Grow up.

Everytime we have a debate similar to this, people like you reach for the "you're looking down on us" stick to beat us with. It's bull sh*t. Absolute bull sh*t, and I'm sick of it. As if I'm lounging about my penthouse apartment here, of a Wednesday morn, running down the riff-raff from my pc - how dare they wish to play our exclusive game!

Just because your post above looks valid to the casual reader skimming the thread, it doesn't make it so.

As members of golf clubs with GUI handicaps, we've been in your shoes and our shoes. You guys have by-and-large never seen things from our point of view. If you've never been someone who properly looks after their handicap, why would you care if they start giving them out willy-nilly, and say things like "ah sure if abuse happens, it's the system at fault" (Par 71).

charlieIRL wrote: »

like me, i never missed a week for about 16 weeks solid during the summer (sometimes playing twice a week) but it was all social golf with my bro in law / nephew or a mate. My club have no idea how i'm playing apart from a hello & chat in the pro shop on the way out or chatting to someone in the clubhouse after a round.

At the moment - i just have no interest in competitionas.

PERFECT example Charlie - thanks for your honesty.

It's undermining the game, what these clubs are doing - it's not "fair play to them". If you want to compete against us, your handicap needs to be handled the same as ours. End of.

charlieIRL

no prob SS, just clarifying the position i am in at the moment with my golf.

I will play competitions some part of next year but exactly like you posted above (# 17) - i'm new to the game and still learning the rules. I'd rather learn them right in the first place and then go and play a competition.

BTW we are gone wayyyy off topic here and most of these replies should be in the handicap review section!!!!:o

GreeBo

charlieIRL wrote: »

I will play competitions some part of next year

The problem with this is that you are coming back and playing your first comp when your handicap is probably no reflection on how you are currently playing. Im not saying you are deliberately doing this to win comps. Its the most natural thing in the (golf) world to want to get "good enough" before you start to play comps. The problem is that they guy off 2 has no chance against a field of people like you. High handicaps and playing better than their handicap.

charlieIRL wrote: »

but exactly like you posted above (# 17) - i'm new to the game and still learning the rules. I'd rather learn them right in the first place and then go and play a competition.

The best place to learn competition golf is in competitions. Its a false belief held by most beginners that they need to get to a certain standard to play competition golf. Its your club, as long as you are considerate, using good etiquette, etc no one can say a damn thing to you if you happen to have a rubbish day.

Par71

GreeBo wrote: »

How can the GUI monitor someone who is playing in society/social golf 5 times a week?

Again, the issue with this away membership with no minimum cards handed in means that you can hand in 3 cards and get a g'cap of 20 and then play opens/society/etc golf for years and still be off an official GUI handicap of 20.

If they are playing open events thier handicap will be adjusted accordingly. If they are playing social golf or society golf they dont need an official handicap. The argument here is for club golfers playing week in week out. They are the handicaps that need to monitored. Anyway your handicap is your own responsibility to maintain.

You cant knock a club for working within the guide lines of the GUI. FACT.

GreeBo

Par71 wrote: »

If they are playing open events thier handicap will be adjusted accordingly. If they are playing social golf or society golf they dont need an official handicap. The argument here is for club golfers playing week in week out. They are the handicaps that need to monitored. Anyway your handicap is your own responsibility to maintain.

You cant knock a club for working within the guide lines of the GUI. FACT.

I disagree totally.
You can play any genre of open, it doesnt have to be a singles competition.
Besides this, depending on how the competition is being run, the onus can be on the player themselves to return their card to their club for the h'cap sec to review. I personally have a hard time believing that a handicap 'sec is going to be monitoring and reviewing 2000 distance members results.

Im not sure why you think only club golfers need to be monitored?
My concern is that people have official GUI handicaps but yet are not handing in regular cards anywhere to see that these handicaps are adjusted/up to date.
These same people are free to play against me in an open fourball with unrealistic handicaps. Thats wrong.
Fact. :rolleyes:

charlieIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

The problem with this is that you are coming back and playing your first comp when your handicap is probably no reflection on how you are currently playing. Im not saying you are deliberately doing this to win comps. Its the most natural thing in the (golf) world to want to get "good enough" before you start to play comps. The problem is that they guy off 2 has no chance against a field of people like you. High handicaps and playing better than their handicap.


The best place to learn competition golf is in competitions. Its a false belief held by most beginners that they need to get to a certain standard to play competition golf. Its your club, as long as you are considerate, using good etiquette, etc no one can say a damn thing to you if you happen to have a rubbish day.

I agree 110% with the point you are making there......but.......I wasn't going to go out in a competition the minute i joined the club. At the start there was a lot of mis-hits ranging from wayward drives to scuffing a shot with a rescue club.
Nobody wants to play in a competition with a player like this and the one time i did it was in a fundraising event (BTW you needed a giu handicap to take part too) i was told everything from "leave my driver in the bag, lessons would be advisable, do you like soccer?" This infuriated me and gave me extra determination to become a better golfer.

The problem is that they guy off 2 has no chance against a field of people like you

I've compared my scores to competitions in my club and, even with my handicap, i wouldn't be near the top - but my handicap will be adjusted when i do start playing and submitting cards therefore levelling the field a bit more.

Going back to the poll - the only solution to this is to make a certain amount of competitions compulsary.

GreeBo

charlieIRL wrote: »

but my handicap will be adjusted when i do start playing and submitting cards therefore levelling the field a bit more.

It will be adjusted when you start shooting under par and winning competitions!

Par71

It's undermining the game, what these clubs are doing - it's not "fair play to them". If you want to compete against us, your handicap needs to be handled the same as ours. End of.[/quote]

Who exactly is us?

And again lets not loose the run of ourselves here. It a game at the end of the day, played by people to be enjoyed by people. Every club has one of the above, grumpy I cant handle anything. And just for the record im not a member of one of these clubs either, so im not defending myself here. As I said before golf is a changing game, (rapidly changing) and now more than ever this country needs clubs like these so people can go around other clubs supporting them by playing in open competitions and the like, snobbery is a thing long gone from the game of golf.

The lower handicap bracket 5 - 0 are always going to find it hard to play against the higher handicap this has been around long before clubs offered these reduced membership rates, so that is not an excuse. Live and let live guys.

charlieIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

It will be adjusted when you start shooting under par and winning competitions!

My average of 33 points won't win a competition in my club!!!

GreeBo

Par71 wrote: »

It's undermining the game, what these clubs are doing - it's not "fair play to them". If you want to compete against us, your handicap needs to be handled the same as ours. End of.

Who exactly is us?
[/quote]
Us is the people who play regular competitions, return every card.

Par71 wrote: »

And again lets not loose the run of ourselves here. It a game at the end of the day, played by people to be enjoyed by people. Every club has one of the above, grumpy I cant handle anything. And just for the record im not a member of one of these clubs either, so im not defending myself here. As I said before golf is a changing game, (rapidly changing) and now more than ever this country needs clubs like these so people can go around other clubs supporting them by playing in open competitions and the like, snobbery is a thing long gone from the game of golf.

Its not snobbery to expect that everyone is playing the game under the same conditions. If I take a year out of competition golf to get coached by David Leadbetter, playing golf for 4 hours a day, If be pretty sure that you wouldnt be the first over to congratulate me when I scoup the first months of prizes in your club with my regular -4 scores?

Par71 wrote: »

The lower handicap bracket 5 - 0 are always going to find it hard to play against the higher handicap this has been around long before clubs offered these reduced membership rates, so that is not an excuse. Live and let live guys.

Ignoring it doesnt make it go away.

ShriekingSheet

charlieIRL wrote: »

My average of 33 points won't win a competition in my club!!!

Ha, if you're averaging 33 points you're doing better than 90% of regular players I know!!

GreeBo

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Ha, if you're averaging 33 points you're doing better than 90% of regular players I know!!

+1
you are also inside your bufferzone, so have no excuse to get out there playing.
Averaging 33 means that you are having some scores better than 33!

charlieIRL

GreeBo wrote: »

+1
you are also inside your bufferzone, so have no excuse to get out there playing.
Averaging 33 means that you are having some scores better than 33!

have had a few - i keep all my old cards and enter them on an excel spreadsheet (sad i know!) but i've also had a few a lot lower and not just from when i started playing.

I'd gladly give all cards to h/c secretary if they wanted to adjust my handicap.

ShriekingSheet

Par71 wrote: »

And again lets not loose the run of ourselves here. It a game at the end of the day, played by people to be enjoyed by people. Every club has one of the above, grumpy I cant handle anything. And just for the record im not a member of one of these clubs either, so im not defending myself here. As I said before golf is a changing game, (rapidly changing) and now more than ever this country needs clubs like these so people can go around other clubs supporting them by playing in open competitions and the like, snobbery is a thing long gone from the game of golf.

As you say yourself Par71, you are not a GUI member, you have no idea where we're coming from, yet you refuse to take this into account when forming your opinoin. Where as nearly all members have been in your position. You're convinced that your view is the right view, despite the fact that you are only familiar with one side of the story. To dismiss the likes of myself & Greebo's (us) argument as "snobbery" is nothing but ignorance on your part.

You're not even trying to understand why people are getting frustrated with hundreds and hundreds of years of precident being flipped on it's head, because a few clubs off the beaten track came up with a clever way to make a few quid.

I can totally see why your bemused by our argument, because you've no idea how things have been done all along. There is a less than perfect, but decent balanced playing field system in place. I've been involved in it for 12 years. You have never been involved in it. I'm telling you that these new deals are f*cking things up and reducing that balance, and therefore the enjoyment of the game. But you don't care, because it's no skin off your nose.

ShriekingSheet

Par71 wrote: »

now more than ever this country needs clubs like these so people can go around other clubs supporting them by playing in open competitions and the like

Absolutely ridiculous point! YES, you can come and play my course, any course on nearly any day at a great rate! You are 110% welcome - this is not an issue. You don't need a GUI handicap to do so!!

But if you want to COMPETE, you do need a GUI handicap, and it does need to be monitored the same as everyone else competing.

Par71

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

As you say yourself Par71, you are not a GUI member, you have no idea where we're coming from, yet you refuse to take this into account when forming your opinoin. Where as nearly all members have been in your position. You're convinced that your view is the right view, despite the fact that you are only familiar with one side of the story. To dismiss the likes of myself & Greebo's (us) argument as "snobbery" is nothing but ignorance on your part.

You're not even trying to understand why people are getting frustrated with hundreds and hundreds of years of precident being flipped on it's head, because a few clubs off the beaten track came up with a clever way to make a few quid.

I can totally see why your bemused by our argument, because you've no idea how things have been done all along. There is a less than perfect, but decent balanced playing field system in place. I've been involved in it for 12 years. You have never been involved in it. I'm telling you that these new deals are f*cking things up and reducing that balance, and therefore the enjoyment of the game. But you don't care, because it's no skin off your nose.

Get your facts right Mr. I said I wasnt a member of one of these clubs (away membership) I never for once said I didnt have a GUI handicap. You have been involved for 12 years, ok fair enough. I have worked in the game for 17 years so dont go about spouting stuff you know nothing about. Im kind of sick of this argument now anyway. Some people in this country love the game of golf and cant afford such high prices for membership, thier ony way is going down this road, if people were a little bit more trusting in this country we would not be having this discussion. It is everybodys given right to hold a handicap and look after it themselves and be honest about it. But no not by your book, if you are a member in one of these clubs your a cheat, is that what you are saying?

Par71

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous point! YES, you can come and play my course, any course on nearly any day at a great rate! You are 110% welcome - this is not an issue. You don't need a GUI handicap to do so!!

But if you want to COMPETE, you do need a GUI handicap, and it does need to be monitored the same as everyone else competing.

And yes if I went to your course to play in an open comp, I would pop my GUI card in the card reader my handicap would pop up on the screen, I go out shoot a round and enter my score, then my handicap is lowered or .1 is given back, quite simple. The same way as everybody else. Not everybody just wants to play a casual game you know.

Par71

GreeBo wrote: »

Who exactly is us?

Us is the people who play regular competitions, return every card.


Its not snobbery to expect that everyone is playing the game under the same conditions. If I take a year out of competition golf to get coached by David Leadbetter, playing golf for 4 hours a day, If be pretty sure that you wouldnt be the first over to congratulate me when I scoup the first months of prizes in your club with my regular -4 scores?


Ignoring it doesnt make it go away.[/quote] If I ignore you would you go away. You not even making sence now. Why wouldnt I congratulate you with your regular -4 scores? Where did you pull that from?

Maverick.ie

Shrieking if there’s anybody that needs to do a bit of growing up around here…… well you figure it out

Between 3 clubs I have spent over 25 years in the administration of golf clubs and am still involved in 2 indeed I set up the handicap committees in two of the clubs in the days before a computer came along to make it easier. I would say from reading his posts Par71 might have spent a year or three on them as well.

As for the comment that handicaps are being given away on the back of cornflake boxes what can one say, there is a procedure in place to award handicaps which it should be pointed out is not set by the GUI it is set by CONGU and it is not a GUI handicap that each of us has but a CONGU handicap each member of an affiliated golf club provided the comply with the membership category criteria is entitled to hold a CONGU handicap

If players play in single competition their cards are generally returned through the golfnet server.
If players are playing in fourballs or foursomes or classics and the like most clubs in the country return this info if not to the GUI then to the player’s home club.
Clubs do take notice of these returns due to the fact that the GUI may now carry out a handicap audit on a club with severe reprimands up to and including suspension of the club, if they find anything majorly untoward.
If you are a member of a club that does not comply with these options you need to be talking to your committee.

But also be absolutely aware that it is the player’s responsibility to notify their club of any such scores and he is responsible for his or her own handicap once awarded.

The fact that a club may have 2000 members does not make it any more susceptible to wholesale cheating than a club with 200 members and of all the handicap secretary’s that I have met up and down the country I would be of the belief that they are honest people who do the job to their utmost capabilities, despite the fact that a huge amount of pressure may be brought to bear in the case of team managers looking to hold onto players for certain inter club competitions

“Some people in this country love the game of golf and can’t afford such high prices for membership, their only way is going down this road, if people were a little bit more trusting in this country we would not be having this discussion. It is everybody’s given right to hold a handicap and look after it themselves and be honest about it. But no not by your book, if you are a member in one of these clubs your a cheat, is that what you are saying?” as quoted by Par71

I know that the type people that are looking for this membership range from low single figure handicappers to mid to high handicappers who simply cannot afford the exorbitant fees charged by their existing club, this does not mean that they will not have their handicaps monitored in any dissimilar way to your own.

Do you think that they should not be given the opportunity to continue on in the game they love bearing in mind that some of these people have been in the game for 25 years and more

I would like to think that if heaven forbid that members on this forum (take a look at the thread) should fall upon hard times that there will be an opportunity for them to join a club which will allow them to continue to play the game at the same time help that club financially to reach it’s targets and that they will not be looked down on for doing so.


If you really have an interest in handicaps get yourselves onto your handicap committees in your own club from there at regular branch meetings you can discuss handicaps with other handicap people and in the meantime use this link to give yourselves some interesting facts and figures and to dispel some of the urban myths that grow up around handicaps perpetrated from lack of knowledge.

http://www.congu.com

PhilipMarlowe

Good post.
You talk of the demand for this good value membership being across the board which is understandable. And also of the secretaries doing their best which is how it should be.
But there has to come a point where a secretary or a handicap committee's workload reaches a critical mass and in my opinion, reviewing the cards/handicaps of that many distance members tips things over the edge.
How many cards might be returned for a golfer in the year.... what if it were 10. So 10 times say 1,000 golfers = 10,000 cards. Now remember that these are faceless people... all you have is a name on a card to go on.
I hope to get involved in this area in my club next year and one thing about a "normal" club is that you could ask a member about another member and they'd probably know something of their game. If they didn't, then they'd likely know someone who did!
With a distance member who never plays at the club then all you have to see is that he came in on 12 holes in that gaa classic or whatever. Obviously if the away member plays singles competitions regularly then bob is your uncle because he'd fall under the automatic handicap adjustments the same as everyone else but that isn't really what annoys people. It's not that every golfer with a cheaper away membership is out to pull a fast one. It's the fact that it's undeniably easier to "manage" your handicap as an away golfer (remembering that you have to be of that ilk to start with).

stumpypeeps

Licksy wrote: »

Good post.
You talk of the demand for this good value membership being across the board which is understandable. And also of the secretaries doing their best which is how it should be.
But there has to come a point where a secretary or a handicap committee's workload reaches a critical mass and in my opinion, reviewing the cards/handicaps of that many distance members tips things over the edge.
How many cards might be returned for a golfer in the year.... what if it were 10. So 10 times say 1,000 golfers = 10,000 cards. Now remember that these are faceless people... all you have is a name on a card to go on.
I hope to get involved in this area in my club next year and one thing about a "normal" club is that you could ask a member about another member and they'd probably know something of their game. If they didn't, then they'd likely know someone who did!
With a distance member who never plays at the club then all you have to see is that he came in on 12 holes in that gaa classic or whatever. Obviously if the away member plays singles competitions regularly then bob is your uncle because he'd fall under the automatic handicap adjustments the same as everyone else but that isn't really what annoys people. It's not that every golfer with a cheaper away membership is out to pull a fast one. It's the fact that it's undeniably easier to "manage" your handicap as an away golfer (remembering that you have to be of that ilk to start with).

So what would you do? Refuse to allow genuine players, who can't afford the annual sub of a local club, obtain cheap membership. On the basis that its easier to cheat the system. And that those people are more likely to cheat the system than other "normal" members?

In this day and age the industry needs as many people playing as possible. The more people playing the better it is for everyone concerned.

Mister Sifter

stumpypeeps wrote: »

So what would you do? Refuse to allow genuine players, who can't afford the annual sub of a local club, obtain cheap membership. On the basis that its easier to cheat the system. And that those people are more likely to cheat the system than other "normal" members?

In this day and age the industry needs as many people playing as possible. The more people playing the better it is for everyone concerned.

Distance membership is all well and good, but i think (and i think this is what Licksy is getting at) that there should be more of a requirement for people who join a club as a distance member to play a certain amount of competitions in those clubs, expecially if that club is their home club.

I've no real problem with people taking up cheap membership at courses in the arse end of nowhere. I find it baffling (and wrong) though that some have never even played the course.

stumpypeeps

Mister Sifter wrote: »

I've no real problem with people taking up cheap membership at courses in the arse end of nowhere. I find it baffling (and wrong) though that some have never even played the course.

Well, to be fair, as a basis for any membership i'd expect the club to ensure the player plays 3 rounds with a member.

That said, I am aware that not all clubs do. That is the biggest draw back. That said can you say for sure that all normal members clubs do ensure three rounds are played. I know of plenty of instances where one card is averaged out to three.