Israel Refuses Minister Martin access to visit Gaza.

mrtaylor1981

Should the Irish government therefore expel the Israeli Ambassador ? Or will the Israeli govt just get away with it and cry anti Semitism if anyone criticizes them ?

" MINISTER FOR Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin has been refused permission to visit Gaza by the Israeli authorities, he told an Oireachtas committee.
Speaking at the Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs yesterday, Mr Martin said no substantive reason had been given for the refusal. Similar requests from other European countries had also been turned down.
“I just wanted to go in myself and see Gaza,” he said.
A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said the initial request to visit Gaza had been made last month. The department had been advised by the Israeli government last week that access was not possible
A spokesman for the Israeli embassy said Mr Martin was not being singled out, and he was “always welcome” to visit Israel. “It is not the appropriate time to visit Gaza because of the Hamas terrorist regime that controls it. This can pose a . . . security risk,” the spokesman added.
Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said.
“The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel is utterly unjustified . . . Denying access to our Minister for Foreign Affairs only serves to give the impression that Israel is unwilling to let the outside world see the suffering which is going on.”
Mr Martin told the committee that the humanitarian situation in Gaza was “completely unacceptable”. He said if progress was not realised quickly, “then the international community as a whole may need to reconsider what further pressure it can bring in favour of achieving a negotiated, two-state settlement”.
He urged the Israeli government to provide “further clear evidence” it was serious about engaging in peace negotiations, “and not, instead, more preoccupied with simply managing what I fear could well escalate into a situation of incipient conflict”.
He called for a halt to settlement construction in east Jerusalem and elsewhere, and an end to the policy of forced evictions and demolition of homes. "

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260044230.html

Overheal

Politely tell the minister to visit Saudi Arabia instead.

FlutterinBantam

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

Should the Irish government therefore expel the Israeli Ambassador ? Or will the Israeli govt just get away with it and cry anti Semitism if anyone criticizes them ?

" MINISTER FOR Foreign Affairs Micheál Martin has been refused permission to visit Gaza by the Israeli authorities, he told an Oireachtas committee.
Speaking at the Oireachtas Committee on European Affairs yesterday, Mr Martin said no substantive reason had been given for the refusal. Similar requests from other European countries had also been turned down.
“I just wanted to go in myself and see Gaza,” he said.
A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said the initial request to visit Gaza had been made last month. The department had been advised by the Israeli government last week that access was not possible
A spokesman for the Israeli embassy said Mr Martin was not being singled out, and he was “always welcome” to visit Israel. “It is not the appropriate time to visit Gaza because of the Hamas terrorist regime that controls it. This can pose a . . . security risk,” the spokesman added.
Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said.
“The continuing blockade of Gaza by Israel is utterly unjustified . . . Denying access to our Minister for Foreign Affairs only serves to give the impression that Israel is unwilling to let the outside world see the suffering which is going on.”
Mr Martin told the committee that the humanitarian situation in Gaza was “completely unacceptable”. He said if progress was not realised quickly, “then the international community as a whole may need to reconsider what further pressure it can bring in favour of achieving a negotiated, two-state settlement”.
He urged the Israeli government to provide “further clear evidence” it was serious about engaging in peace negotiations, “and not, instead, more preoccupied with simply managing what I fear could well escalate into a situation of incipient conflict”.
He called for a halt to settlement construction in east Jerusalem and elsewhere, and an end to the policy of forced evictions and demolition of homes. "

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1204/1224260044230.html

dead right, more pressing matters at home.

ei.sdraob

they dont want anyone going to Gaza and seeing it for what it is

a giant concentration camp

reporters are not allowed either, makes you wonder whats going on there

Poccington

If the Israeli's are that concerned about Martin's safety, let a CP team travel with him or else supply one upon his arrival.

loobylou

Whats a CP team?

Poccington

loobylou wrote: »

Whats a CP team?

A Close Protection Team.

They'd basically be acting as armed bodyguards for Minister Martin.

Overheal

I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.

Lab_Mouse

Overheal wrote: »

I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.

he was refused access to gaza not saudi or am I missing something?

dlofnep

They refused him access because they don't want him to see the horrors that the Palestinian people live with. It's nothing to do with his safety.

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

dead right, more pressing matters at home.

Mícheál Martin is the minister for Foreign Affairs. The Palestinians live in unfathomable conditions. There are few things more pressing than the conditions that those poor people have to live under.

Nodin

Overheal wrote: »

I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.

...or we're a bit sick of hearing "Go to saudi" as an answer in any thread relating to the middle east, muslims etc.

square leg

Frankly is anyone suprised? The Israelis are a law onto themselves and always will be as long as the US back them no matter what they do. The analogy to Saudi Arabia is silly - Saudi Arabia does not claim to be a democracy and to follow Western Liberal traditions. Israel does and should be judged by those standards. By the way I think what the Saudis (and the Iranians) do is disgraceful but that is not the issue at hand.
By the way watch the issue die quickly in the media.

Treatment of the Palestinians is a blot on the Western World as we back Israel - easy to blame the Israelis all the time but a bully will act as a bully as long as you allow him (or her) to do it.

Overheal

Nodin wrote: »

...or we're a bit sick of hearing "Go to saudi" as an answer in any thread relating to the middle east, muslims etc.

Maybe im just sick of hearing IsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsrael and maybe its time you stopped obsessing about Israel when theres plenty of obsessing to go around.

square leg

But do you think that it is wrong that Martin has been banned from entering Gaza or are you going to keep putting up a facile argument?

thebman

Seems quite serious to refuse a Minister access to any region.

If they are doing the same to the rest of the EU, I think as a group they should be asking why and insisting that someone from the EU be allowed to visit Gazza with the relevant protection to make sure people don't get the wrong opinion of what Israel are up to.

Overheal

square leg wrote: »

But do you think that it is wrong that Martin has been banned from entering Gaza or are you going to keep putting up a facile argument?

I agree that the whole Gaza scenario is fecked. Actually im more annoyed at the Comittee Chairman for this remark:

"Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said."

As though to say Israel is the only place Irish Foreign Ministers are restricted from visiting that are suspect or confirmed to be comitting human rights abuses.

It goes back to the whole Negroponte doctrine; and with the UN absolutely blasting Israel and the Gaza strip, but has had comparably little to say about the rest of the region whether that be Palestine, Iran, Saudi Arabia, etc.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

Maybe im just sick of hearing IsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsraelIsrael and maybe its time you stopped obsessing about Israel when theres plenty of obsessing to go around.

Who are you to decide what interests a person can have?

I'm going to have to bring you back down to earth - The reason you consistently hear about Israel isn't because people are obsessing about the issue. The reason you hear about Israel so often is because of their asinine policies, war-crimes against innocent people and ongoing illegal occupation of Palestinian territories.

So instead of questioning why a "democratic" state would block an elected Irish minister for Foreign affairs - You question people who have engaged with the thread? Agenda much? :rolleyes:

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

I agree that the whole Gaza scenario is fecked. Actually im more annoyed at the Comittee Chairman for this remark:

"Committee chairman Bernard Durkan condemned the decision. “This is totally intolerable. That an Irish foreign minister is not permitted to visit a region to assess a humanitarian situation is almost without precedent and is tantamount to censorship,” Mr Durkan said."

As though to say Israel is the only place Irish Foreign Ministers are restricted from visiting that are suspect or confirmed to be comitting human rights abuses.

Um, might it be because the topic of what he was speaking about was infact, TD Martin's blocked access? Hello?

Now - if it so happened that he was blocked from access to 2 different countries in a close time span (let's say Israel and Iran) - Then we could compare and contrast it in a meaningful context. But not your, nonsensical, totally out of base context that really makes no sense whatsoever.

The fact that you are more annoyed about comments made by some Johnny randomer, than Israel blocking an elected official access to a region under severe conditions says an awful lot about your agenda.

Overheal

dlofnep wrote: »

Um, might it be because the topic of what he was speaking about was infact, TD Martin's blocked access? Hello?

Now - if it so happened that he was blocked from access to 2 different countries in a close time span (let's say Israel and Iran) - Then we could compare and contrast it in a meaningful context. But not your, nonsensical, totally out of base context that really makes no sense whatsoever.

The fact that you are more annoyed about comments made by some Johnny randomer, than Israel blocking an elected official access to a region under severe conditions says an awful lot about your agenda.

1) I dont have an agenda. 1a) How f@#king dare you. 1b) Thats incredibly Ad Hominem.

2) Totally nonsensical is it? Im just saying I dont hear the Ministers in a Huff trying to investigate Saudi Arabia, DPRK, China, etc. and why? Because they're doing it behind their own borders? Yes China. You can force your population into slave working conditions. And Saudi its cool you can stone your teenagers for getting raped by people that arent their 50 year old husbands. Just dont do it in somebody else's lawn, or we'll send you an angry letter and be very unhappy with you.

If that doesnt make sense to you head back to vivapalestina.

3) What f@#king Agenda? Maybe you can explain what my agenda is, without using the words Tinfoil, Freemason, CIA, FBI and Conspiracy.

4) As for visiting 2 countries in a short space of time: when was the last time Ireland sent a diplomatic mission anywhere else controversial out of curiosity.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

1) I dont have an agenda.

Sure you don't.

Overheal wrote: »

1a) How f@#king dare you. 1b)

How dare I post on a webforum?

Overheal wrote: »

Thats incredibly Ad Hominem.

No it isn't.

Overheal wrote: »

2) Totally nonsensical is it? Im just saying I dont hear the Ministers in a Huff trying to investigate Saudi Arabia, DPRK, China, etc. and why?

Any examples of Mícheál Martin being refused access to these said countries, with citations of any feedback he gave on them?

Overheal wrote: »

If that doesnt make sense to you head back to vivapalestina.

Sigh..

Overheal wrote: »

3) What f@#king Agenda?

Your agenda to attack people who are willing to speak against Israel.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

4) As for visiting 2 countries in a short space of time: when was the last time Ireland sent a diplomatic mission anywhere else controversial out of curiosity.

michealmartintd@eircom.net

E-mail him and ask him. Let us know when you find out.

Overheal

Any examples of Mícheál Martin being refused access to these said countries, with citations of any feedback he gave on them?

Why dont you give me examples of him being allowed on similar humanitarian missions to these countries instead?

Your agenda to attack people who are willing to speak against Israel.

The only "Agenda" I have remotely to that baseless accusation is to generate a balanced discussion. You cant have a balanced discussion if everyone and their granny is on an Israeli Bashfest. All im met with is people like you who cant tolerate trying to see the multifacets of the issue. And thats what it is, a Multi-Faceted issue. You and many others are treated this as the big unfathomably evil monster Israel and its bum buddy the United States of Doom.

nesf

dlofnep wrote: »

Sure you don't.

Don't accuse others of having an agenda please. All it does is goad the other person.

Overheal

The Palestinians live in unfathomable conditions.

Well that is the Topic isnt it, if you wish to elaborate.

Lab_Mouse

Overheal in fairness the majority of times that israel is in the news here is over palestine and theyre treatment of palestinians>The blind dog on the street can tell the civilians are getting rightly screwed over.So alot of the time the israeli bashing is justified.

The OP was about our foreign minister along with otheres not getting into gaza to see first hand how the civilians are getting on.

Your right too about Saudi.china etc,butr start up a seperate thread if your that bothered about it otherwise id suggest the ranting and raving forum if you Really wanna get it off your chest:D

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

Why dont you give me examples of him being allowed on similar humanitarian missions to these countries instead?

You made the accusation, not me. I'm not doing your homework for you because you can't actually find anything to backup your argument. That's how this works. If Person A makes an accusation, the onus is not on Person B to prove it.

So I repeat - Could you provide evidence that backs up your idea of Mícheál Martin not visiting other countries on similar missions, and evidence of his comments on these said missions?

Overheal wrote: »

You cant have a balanced discussion if everyone and their granny is on an Israeli Bashfest.

Firstly, it's not an Israeli "bashfest". It's not as if we want Israel to keep doing bad things, so that we have something to moan about.

Overheal wrote: »

All im met with is people like you who cant tolerate trying to see the multifacets of the issue.

The issue is that an elected official was denied access to Palestine. You haven't actually discussed the topic at hand. You didn't actually comment on whether you felt it was appropiate or inappropiate for Israel to do so. Your very first comment intentionally took the thread off topic. You didn't even attempt to explain what your comment meant. All you said was

Politely tell the minister to visit Saudi Arabia instead.

Overheal wrote: »

And thats what it is, a Multi-Faceted issue.

Is it? I thought it was an issue about Israel denying access to an elected official. Silly me.

Overheal wrote: »

You and many others are treated this as the big unfathomably evil monster Israel and its bum buddy the United States of Doom.

Huh?

dlofnep

nesf wrote: »

Don't accuse others of having an agenda please. All it does is goad the other person.

No problem.

paulaa

Overheal wrote: »

Why dont you give me examples of him being allowed on similar humanitarian missions to these countries instead?
The only "Agenda" I have remotely to that baseless accusation is to generate a balanced discussion. You cant have a balanced discussion if everyone and their granny is on an Israeli Bashfest. All im met with is people like you who cant tolerate trying to see the multifacets of the issue. And thats what it is, a Multi-Faceted issue. You and many others are treated this as the big unfathomably evil monster Israel and its bum buddy the United States of Doom.

The reason Europeans are interested in what's happening in Israel/Palestine is that Israel touts itself a democracy based on Western values. They want associate membership of the EU. They want "special agreements" with the EU for lower tax rates than other countries. Their sports teams play in European leagues, eg the Europa League. Hell, they're even in the Eurovision song contest.

We have a right to criticise a country who goes against the democratic values that we hold dear. We have a right to criticise a country who blatantly disregards International law and Human Rights.

If Israel or her followers don't like it, stick to dealing with their neighbours in the Middle East where they chose to settle.

Israel is fast becoming a theocracy, run by fanatical, extremist settlers who had never set foot in the country before but who believe they can steal land and property from a people who have lived there for umpteen generations, with the full blessing of their "democratic" government and protected by the biased and racist IDF.

All the whining in the world is not going to silence people from speaking out about what Israel has become, especially since the mass slaughter in Gaza.

Get used to it because their voices are growing louder.

Overheal

fair enough, but alright. I do actually want to try to have a clean discussion on it starting with facts before feelings. I've started here and am branching my way out trying to find a succint list of potential HR abuses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008-2009_Gaza_Strip_aid

and of course

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

I suppose my first question is how can Israel refuse access to Gaza if Gaza is puposedly controlled by Hamas, a Palestinian Terrorist/Political group?

I thought it was an issue about Israel denying access to an elected official.

And of course by Extension its a discussion about the Region. Silly Me.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

I suppose my first question is how can Israel refuse access to Gaza if Gaza is puposedly controlled by Hamas, a Palestinian Terrorist/Political group?

Firstly, Hamas are the elected Government of Palestine. The Israeli Government could be equally classified as terrorists.

Secondly - Israel can refuse access because Israel have Gaza under blockade, and most of the international transport is based out of Israel. The Israeli Navy block the coast with warships. In summary, the blockade itself is a crime against humanity.

Gone West

Overheal wrote: »

I love how Im being ignored. And not just for my everyday egotistical issues; but it just goes to show you how fixated people are on Gaza to the detriment of other abuses around the globe.

Your being ignored (not just here but most other threads too) because your comment was irrelevant.

Its quite obvious why the Minister was not allowed, same reasons for the media black/grey-out. As stated above, Gaza is one giant concentration camp.

dvpower

Overheal wrote: »

I suppose my first question is how can Israel refuse access to Gaza if Gaza is puposedly controlled by Hamas, a Palestinian Terrorist/Political group?

Aren't the entry points controlled by Israel? Maybe he could go in via a tunnel from Egypt.

Overheal

el judìo wrote: »

Your being ignored (not just here but most other threads too) because your comment was irrelevant.

Its quite obvious why the Minister was not allowed, same reasons for the media black/grey-out. As stated above, Gaza is one giant concentration camp.

Blockade: Grand (not Grand I approve, Grand Gotcha)

Auscwhitz: What?

paulaa

el judìo wrote: »

Your being ignored (not just here but most other threads too) because your comment was irrelevant.

Its quite obvious why the Minister was not allowed, same reasons for the media black/grey-out. As stated above, Gaza is one giant concentration camp.

I agree with your synopsis. With the siege and blockade of Gaza now in it's third year conditions are getting steadily worse. The World health Organisation say that over 60% of Gazan children are suffering from vitamin deficency illnesses, rickets etc. Basic foods stuffs are still not being allowed into Gaza. Truck loads of medicines, donated from abroad, have perished and gone out of date because they have been sitting at the border for months.

Families are spending another winter living under tarpaulins, their home and belongings having been destroyed by IAF bombers and bulldozers. Building materials are not allowed in to Gaza by Israel.

Over 400 people, suffering from cancers, leukemia etc have died in the last year because Israel wouldn't allow them out of Gaza to get treatment. 16 Women and their babies have died in childbirth at the border crossings because they were denied permits to get medical aid. Hospitals were bombed in January and haven't been repaired yet.

This is what Israel doesn't want the world to see and why Michael Martin, Human Rights groups and various other groups are not allowed access to Gaza.
And the world sits by and does nothing

Overheal

And the world sits by and does nothing

Well from what I've read the world would argue its doing a lot. Or its trying to.

dlofnep

paulaa wrote: »

I agree with your synopsis. With the siege and blockade of Gaza now in it's third year conditions are getting steadily worse. The World health Organisation say that over 60% of Gazan children are suffering from vitamin deficency illnesses, rickets etc. Basic foods stuffs are still not being allowed into Gaza. Truck loads of medicines, donated from abroad, have perished and gone out of date because they have been sitting at the border for months.

Families are spending another winter living under tarpaulins, their home and belongings having been destroyed by IAF bombers and bulldozers. Building materials are not allowed in to Gaza by Israel.

Over 400 people, suffering from cancers, leukemia etc have died in the last year because Israel wouldn't allow them out of Gaza to get treatment. 16 Women and their babies have died in childbirth at the border crossings because they were denied permits to get medical aid. Hospitals were bombed in January and haven't been repaired yet.

This is what Israel doesn't want the world to see and why Michael Martin, Human Rights groups and various other groups are not allowed access to Gaza.
And the world sits by and does nothing

Great post.

Overheal

dlofnep wrote: »

Firstly, Hamas are the elected Government of Palestine. The Israeli Government could be equally classified as terrorists.

More than 100 states recognize the State of Palestine[25], and 17 more grant some form of diplomatic status to a Palestinian delegation, falling short of full diplomatic recognition.

Hamas has governed the Gaza portion of the Palestinian Territories. The governments of Canada,[5] the European Union,[6][7][8] Israel,[9] and the United States[10] classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.

From what I've read this blockade is a direct reaction to the Election of Hamas, and the Political and Violent civil fighting between Hamas and the Then-majority leader Fatah: As a direct result of that unrest and internal violence. And Egypt too has closed its border for similar reasons. Its also why the US has been merrily underway with erecting a not-so unprecedented 18ft wall along the entire border of Mexico. Foolishly. But you can see why they might want to do it.

Why not just reinstate Fatah? When is the next Palestinian Election being held?

paulaa

Overheal wrote: »

Well from what I've read the world would argue its doing a lot. Or its trying to.

The only people trying to do something about it are the UNRWA, who are thwarted at every turn by Israel.

Judge Goldstone, a South African Jew, who wrote a report for the UN about war crimes committed by both Hamas and Israel in Gaza in January. For his trouble he was called "anti-Semitic", a "self hating Jew" and has had death threats from Israelis.

The various small groups who support the Palestinian struggle against an unjust and cruel occupation like VivaPalestina, who have tried to break the seige to get the world's attention. Bet'selem, the Israeli Human Rights group who have given Palestinians video cameras to have video evidence of the daily abuses and intimidation Palestinians are subjected to in Israel and Palestine. Many of these videos are on YouTube. They also work with Palestinians during the olive harvest to try and stop the armed settlers from destroying the olive groves, for many their only source of income.

As to the World's governments, well they sit by and do very little except pay lip service. Many in the US are not even aware of the siege of Gaza because American media is controlled by the likes of Rupert Murdoch, a Zionist sympathiser.

dlofnep

Overheal wrote: »

The governments of Canada,[5] the European Union,[6][7][8] Israel,[9] and the United States[10] classify Hamas as a terrorist organization.

America doesn't define who is and who isn't a terrorist. America don't have the moral fibre to make such a claim when it's committed it's own acts of terrorism, and breached nearly every possible human rights violation in the world. Hamas are the product of their environment. They have every right to resist by politics or by war the illegal occupation of their land. Every country has the right to defend from occupation.

Overheal wrote: »

From what I've read this blockade is a direct reaction to the Election of Hamas, and the Political and Violent civil fighting between Hamas and the Then-majority leader Fatah: As a direct result of that unrest and internal violence. And Egypt too has closed its border for similar reasons. Its also why the US has been merrily underway with erecting a not-so unprecedented 18ft wall along the entire border of Mexico. Foolishly. But you can see why they might want to do it.

Stop educating yourself with wikipedia. Seriously. If the blockade is due to Hamas - then why were aid convoys blocked?

Overheal wrote: »

Why not just reinstate Fatah? When is the next Palestinian Election being held?

Because Hamas are the elected officials. The Palestinian people chose them to represent them.

Overheal

dlofnep wrote: »

America doesn't define who is and who isn't a terrorist. America don't have the moral fibre to make such a claim when it's committed it's own acts of terrorism, and breached nearly every possible human rights violation in the world. Hamas are the product of their environment. They have every right to resist by politics or by war the illegal occupation of their land. Every country has the right to defend from occupation.

Uhm, What about Canada, the European Union of which you're a part of, which also regard Hamas as a Terrorist Organisation?

Stop educating yourself with wikipedia. Seriously. If the blockade is due to Hamas - then why were aid convoys blocked?

Might as well stop telling someone to use the Internet or Open books or read a Broadsheet. I could as cheaply tell you to stop edutaining yourself with vivapalestinia and youtube but that would be quite farcical. I dont wish to deny that conditions are poor in the strip.

Are you disagreeing with the source of information? Can you refute the source of information?

Because Hamas are the elected officials. The Palestinian people chose them to represent them.

Whom also drove out Fatah through violence after the elections.

And if Im reading correctly, the borders have been opened and closed intermittently at different times for varying reasons to let varying goods and items pass through. One choice passage I found stated Israel wanted to keep its border open to Israelis stranded in the Gaza strip, but had to abandon the plan due to a Hamas statement that they would gun down any such Refugees that tried to cross the border.

In January 2006, Hamas was successful in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, taking 76 of the 132 seats in the chamber, while the previous ruling Fatah party took 43.[14] After Hamas's election victory, violent and non-violent conflicts arose between Hamas and Fatah.[15][16] Following the Battle of Gaza in June 2007, elected Hamas officials were ousted from their positions in the Palestinian National Authority government in the West Bank and replaced by rival Fatah members and independents. Hamas retained control of Gaza.[17][18] On June 18, 2007, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Fatah) issued a decree outlawing the Hamas militia.[19] Israel then immediately imposed an economic blockade on Gaza, and Hamas launched Qassam attacks on areas of Israel near its border with Gaza.[20]

seclachi

Refusing the right to travel to Gaza isnt ground for expelling the Israeli ambassador, thats a pretty serious thing to do.

Im not pro Israel by any stretch, but its all well and good for us to apply our European ideals to them, even though we are at peace, and they are surrounded by conflict, and if we were in the same situation we would be demanding the exact same action against our aggressors. I can see why they refused him too, there probably tired of foreign politicians coming and one upping them.

Overheal

seclachi wrote: »

Refusing the right to travel to Gaza isnt ground for expelling the Israeli ambassador, thats a pretty serious thing to do.

Im not pro Israel by any stretch, but its all well and good for us to apply our European ideals to them, even though we are at peace, and they are surrounded by conflict, and if we were in the same situation we would be demanding the exact same action against our aggressors. I can see why they refused him too, there probably tired of foreign politicians coming and one upping them.

You know the more I think about it, what guarantee would there be that Hamas wouldnt have attempted to take the Minister hostage? As I have pointed out, the EU has already labeled them Terrorists.

Israel's position is surely dubious but regarding the man's safety, they may have had a point.

Expelling the ambassador might feel right but realistically keeping as much communication as possible seems much more ideal.

thebman

Overheal wrote: »

You know the more I think about it, what guarantee would there be that Hamas wouldnt have attempted to kidnap the Minister? As I have pointed out, the EU has already labeled them Terrorists.

Israel's position is surely dubious but regarding the man's safety, they may have had a point.

Expelling the ambassador might feel right but realistically keeping as much communication as possible seems much more ideal.

What would they have to gain from kidnapping him?

Seriously?

Overheal

thebman wrote: »

What would they have to gain from kidnapping him?

Seriously?

Media Attention? After all even Rupert flipping Murdoch couldnt ignore covering a story like that. All the more to call attention back to the Gaza Strip issue. It would have also created a scenario which would have pressured Israel into allowing more aid and fuel through the border in order to 'trade' for the foreign diplomat. If as is being suggested Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death essentially, whats to say what depth they wouldnt stoop to if given an opportunity?

Now im not a Terrorist or a Military Strategist, but those are just two options that spring to mind.

seclachi

Overheal wrote: »

Media Attention? After all even Rupert flipping Murdoch couldnt ignore covering a story like that. All the more to call attention back to the Gaza Strip issue. It would have also created a scenario which would have pressured Israel into allowing more aid and fuel through the border in order to 'trade' for the foreign diplomat. If as is being suggested Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death essentially, whats to say what depth they wouldnt stoop to if given an opportunity?

Now im not a Terrorist or a Military Strategist, but those are just two options that spring to mind.

Its not the kind of attention they want, they have a good amount of support in the EU because of Israels own heavy handed actions, and because there the underdog, kidnapping an EU politician would in no way help that cause.

Now an RPG landing through the roof of his car by accident is something thats quite possible.

thebman

Overheal wrote: »

Media Attention? After all even Rupert flipping Murdoch couldnt ignore covering a story like that. All the more to call attention back to the Gaza Strip issue. It would have also created a scenario which would have pressured Israel into allowing more aid and fuel through the border in order to 'trade' for the foreign diplomat. If as is being suggested Hamas and the Palestinians in Gaza are being starved to death essentially, whats to say what depth they wouldnt stoop to if given an opportunity?

Now im not a Terrorist or a Military Strategist, but those are just two options that spring to mind.

That isn't the kind of attention you want for a cause if your trying to play the victim. How many ministers have they kidnapped in the past?

Whats the track record? Any reason to think they would want to kidnap him because I can't see any benefit to it TBH when he is going there most likely to bring attention and sympathy to their cause if they are being mistreated.

It would just make it obvious they aren't being mistreated if they have to kidnap Ministers that go to see conditions to attract attention.

fischer

dlofnep wrote: »

Because Hamas are the elected officials. The Palestinian people chose them to represent them.

Perhaps the Palestinian people should be more careful who they elect in the future.

While its true that Fatah were and still are very corrupt, electing a party/militia that are bent on war with your nearest neighbour (the regional superpower) is a bad idea. It gets large numbers of people killed.

Fischer.

paulaa

fischer wrote: »

Perhaps the Palestinian people should be more careful who they elect in the future.

While its true that Fatah were and still are very corrupt, electing a party/militia that are bent on war with your nearest neighbour (the regional superpower) is a bad idea. It gets large numbers of people killed.

Fischer.

Israel and the US armed and supported Hamas against the PLO and Arafat. When it suits them Hamas are terrorists.

If Israel hadn't completely undermined Abbas there would have been a good chance that Hamas wouldn't have won the election. The Palestinians felt that they had no one to look out for their interests.They had nothing to lose as settlements were being built all over stolen land that was earmarked for the Palestinian State. The daily ill treatment and humiliations meted out to them was bound to have an effect after so many years.

As to Fatah being corrupt, yes they are, just like their neighbours. How many Israeli ministers and Prime Ministers are being investigated for corruption and illegal activities ? The Moldovan bouncer/ Israeli foreign minister is being investigated for some fairly substantial dodgy financial dealings. Former Prime Minister Olmert has been to court several times and is not finished yet. Another senior minister has been accused and charged with rape and sexual harrassment by several women in his office. Those are only a few I can think of atm.

Shin Bet

thebman wrote: »

That isn't the kind of attention you want for a cause if your trying to play the victim. How many ministers have they kidnapped in the past?

Whats the track record? Any reason to think they would want to kidnap him because I can't see any benefit to it TBH when he is going there most likely to bring attention and sympathy to their cause if they are being mistreated.

It would just make it obvious they aren't being mistreated if they have to kidnap Ministers that go to see conditions to attract attention.

Muslim extremists will kidnap any westerner they can while hamas at the moment are quite contempt to just kill Jews ( Note not just Israelis but Jews as in thier Charter try reading it sometime )
Kidnapping or killing an Irish minister will heighten thier profile and of course there will be the guillible idiots in Ireland who will think Israel done it. also Irish councillers etc have a history of visiting some of the most evil people ever to set foot in the middle east when they go to gaza on "fact finding" missions.

on another side note do you think its fair for the irish taxpayer whos already suffering to be charged for a useless mission to gaza in all honosty if he did go there and fell foul to pallywood what could a moronic finna fail minister whos squandered millions of euro do??

soap box in the dail anyone??

Shin Bet

paulaa wrote: »

Israel and the US armed and supported Hamas against the PLO and Arafat. When it suits them Hamas are terrorists.


welcome back Paula havent seen you since January
please re read history Israel only armed Plo as part of a PEACE process

Ironic isnt it

Manic Moran

Secondly - Israel can refuse access because Israel have Gaza under blockade, and most of the international transport is based out of Israel. The Israeli Navy block the coast with warships. In summary, the blockade itself is a crime against humanity.

I note your use of the word 'most'. In that, you are acknowledging the fact that there is more than just one country blockading Gaza. If the entire population of West Berlin (Four times the population of Gaza), could be supported to Western standards of living by one road and two railroads for three decades, it seems to me that there is no reason why Israel can be held solely responsible for the conditions in Gaza right now.

If the Minister is so intent on getting into Gaza, he should also try going via Cairo. If he doesn't try, what does that tell us?

NTM