December Budget 09 details

What are your thoughts on the below outline details of the upcoming budget.

There's more people going up north after this, and even less revenue coming in here :rolleyes:

The child benefit i believe should be means tested for high earners

http://www.tv3.ie/article.php?article_id=26908&locID=1.2.139.&pagename=home

Details of Budget 2010 revealed to TV3


01.12.09

Tonight TV3 News can exclusively reveal much of what's likely to feature in next week's long awaited budget. Here's what the cabinet has agreed so far.

Government Spending
Four billion euro worth of savings will be made in total.

• One billion euro from the Public Sector Pay and Pensions Bill.
• One billion worth of cuts will be made from social welfare,
• one billion from capital spending
• and one billion from departmental spending.

Public sector Pay
The cut means that public sector pay will be cut by five per cent.

Taxation
At present there is no plan for the third rate of tax for high earners.

Social Welfare
Social welfare will be hit hard by the budget. Areas expected to be hit include:
Child Benefit

• Child benefit will be cut by ten per cent.
• However, It'll be neither taxed nor means tested.
• A compensation package will be available for welfare recipients.

Other benefits

• All other benefits will be cut by about five per cent.
• Unemployment benefit for under twenty threes will fall by twenty per cent.

Old Age Pension

• It is believed however that an exception will be made for the old age pension and pensioners will not be hit - this time.

Healthcare Spending
Cuts in departmental spending will mean more expensive healthcare for everyone.

• A prescription charge of fifty cent will be introduced for medical card holders.
• A&E charges will go up
• The threshold for the drug payment scheme will also rise.

murphaph

It is believed however that an exception will be made for the old age pension and pensioners will not be hit - this time.

No surprises but this is disgraceful. OAPs are the least likely to have ANY significant debt! The 204 quid a week PER PERSON state pension (excluding ALL the other benefits OAPs get!) is simply too high.

skearon

hellboy99 wrote: »

There's more people going up north after this, and even less revenue coming in here :rolleyes:

Precisely which part of TV3's budget report will make more people deprive their own state of much needed taxes?

Dannyboy83

Much more lenient than I expected tbh.
As of tomorrow, we owe 75 Bill

Drumpot

murphaph wrote: »

No surprises but this is disgraceful. OAPs are the least likely to have ANY significant debt! The 204 quid a week PER PERSON state pension (excluding ALL the other benefits OAPs get!) is simply too high.

I believe that OAP's are one of the more vulnerable sections of society and need to be protected. .

And they dont save, so most of their money will be pumped back into the economy .

# A compensation package will be available for welfare recipients.

A what now?

Drumpot

Deleted User wrote: »

A what now?

Seanie Fitzpatrick ordered his charter jet to bring him back to the emerald isles when he read that . . . :eek:

amacachi

Deleted User wrote: »

A what now?

People on the dole with kids will get extra from the dole to make up for the loss in children's allowance. That's the impression I'm getting anyway.

amacachi

Have to say this looks like yet another fudge. 50 cent prescription charges for Christ's sake.

irish_bob

murphaph wrote: »

No surprises but this is disgraceful. OAPs are the least likely to have ANY significant debt! The 204 quid a week PER PERSON state pension (excluding ALL the other benefits OAPs get!) is simply too high.

OAP,s recieve 232 euro per week plus a raft of other benefits , i agree they are far too spoiled but they are the most important voter demographic and i dont blame the goverment for leaving them untouched , besides , when you hit the OAP,s , you make enemys of their middle aged children as seen by last years outcry , middle aged people dont want to see thier inherritance reduced

irish_bob

Drumpot wrote: »

I believe that OAP's are one of the more vulnerable sections of society and need to be protected. .

And they dont save, so most of their money will be pumped back into the economy .

you must live in the city , any old person i know saves like a squirrell , old people tend to be very stingy with money

murphaph

Drumpot wrote: »

I believe that OAP's are one of the more vulnerable sections of society and need to be protected. .

Why are they more vulnerable?

My mother sticks her pension in the bank. She still works fulltime yet receives this 204 quid a week and does nothing with it. She can't be alone.

Even for OAPs who have no other income, how can an OAP with no mortgage and with a fuel allowance/telephone allowance/medical card/free travel pass/living alone allowance be more vulnerable than an unemployed father of 3 kids of school-going age? It's a nonsense tbh. Old folks don't need this much money but they are just another sacred cow in Ireland like the nurses. It is cynically political to leave the pension untouched and that much is obvious.

Drumpot wrote: »

And they dont save, so most of their money will be pumped back into the economy .

See above-unemployed fathers of 3 kids don't save either ;-)

boodlesdoodles

irish_bob wrote: »

OAP,s recieve 232 euro per week plus a raft of other benefits , i agree they are far too spoiled but they are the most important voter demographic and i dont blame the goverment for leaving them untouched , besides , when you hit the OAP,s , you make enemys of their middle aged children as seen by last years outcry , middle aged people dont want to see thier inherritance reduced

I'm sorry but why should my mother who depend on the widow's contributory pension suffer? Your remarks are insulting to all those men and women who worked to get this country on its feet over the last 70 odd years. Have a bit of respect for the elderly. Any benefits my mother gets she is more than entitled to and its disingenious to say they are spoiled. Jesus why don't we just lump the whole lot of em into homes and forget about them. Irish Bob you've said some things I've found repugnant on other threads and kept my cool but I have to say this is the worst.

Drumpot

The bitterness in these forums is remarkable . . . .

Hope none of you guys are ever old and stuck with younger people with your attitudes , running the country . . .

You assume that every OAP represents supposedly every OAP you know . . How convenient and ignorant in equal measure . .

What's even funnier is that the OAPs of today had it 1000000000 more difficult then most people who believe they are struggling in todays terms . .

Struggling meant you might not be able to put a meal on the table (not you might have to cancel your sky subscription) .

Everybodys about me me me on these forums . . They have absolutely no comprehension (or willingness to try and be fair) of how good our current generation have it . .

The society that I know has lost touch with reality and convinces itself that its some sort of casualty of a really unfair world . . If you can keep a roof over your head and feed your family, you are doing ok . .

boodlesdoodles

murphaph wrote: »

Why are they more vulnerable?

My mother sticks her pension in the bank. She still works fulltime yet receives this 204 quid a week and does nothing with it. She can't be alone.

Even for OAPs who have no other income, how can an OAP with no mortgage and with a fuel allowance/telephone allowance/medical card/free travel pass/living alone allowance be more vulnerable than an unemployed father of 3 kids of school-going age? It's a nonsense tbh. Old folks don't need this much money but they are just another sacred cow in Ireland like the nurses. It is cynically political to leave the pension untouched and that much is obvious.


See above-unemployed fathers of 3 kids don't save either ;-)

Well isn't your mother very lucky? You should be grateful rather than sticking the boot in those who actually need every bit of their pension to heat their house, pay their bills? Do you know how much the fuel allowance is? €20 p.w. Most older people depend on their phone for company. THis is a new low for Boards.

amacachi

Drumpot wrote: »

The bitterness in these forums is remarkable . . . .

Hope none of you guys are ever old and stuck with younger people with your attitudes , running the country . . .

You assume that every OAP represents supposedly every OAP you know . . How convenient and ignorant in equal measure . .

What's even funnier is that the OAPs of today had it 1000000000 more difficult then most people who believe they are struggling in todays terms . .

Struggling meant you might not be able to put a meal on the table (not you might have to cancel your sky subscription) .

Everybodys about me me me on these forums . . They have absolutely no comprehension (or willingness to try and be fair) of how good our current generation have it . .

The society that I know has lost touch with reality and convinces itself that its some sort of casualty of a really unfair world . . If you can keep a roof over your head and feed your family, you are doing ok . .

Well let's use that logic for everything, see how far we get.:rolleyes:
They're cutting the dole more for under 23s because they tend to have less debt and no kids to pay for, so why not apply the same logic to other sections of society?

bbam

murphaph & irish_bob

You guys are a bloody disgrase to the nation... Shame on you

murphaph

I see the usual emotive, let's not analyse anything attitude is alive and well!

How the bloody hell can a typical OAP (mortgage free, probably living in an oversized house that they could easily downsize from) be more vulnerable than a young unemployed family??

OAPs simply don't need this much money. It's too much. Any OAP who is claiming all their allowances and who still spends every penny of their pension is a spendthrift.

You lads have no idea how much of this pension money is being hoarded for inheritances.

Drumpot

murphaph wrote: »

You lads have no idea how much of this pension money is being hoarded for inheritances.

Evidence please . . Or should we take your word for it . .

And where did anybody say that young unemployed families should be left hang ?

maryjane007

i totally agree that pensioners should be left alone, the majority of them worked their fingers to the bone to build the country, but with all due respect, i do see where your coming from though, i dont know any poor pensioners, my kids think all pensioners are rich because their grandparents always have lots of 50 notes. its the younger generation who have young families who are struggling.

Kristopherus

bbam wrote: »

murphaph & irish_bob

You guys are a bloody disgrase to the nation... Shame on you

+1. And that can be explained that neither of them know how much the OAP is.

nesf

boodlesdoodles wrote: »

THis is a new low for Boards.

So two posters say they want to cut the OAP and you paint the rest of boards with that brush?


In general please don't get personal guys, the OAP is something that is very controversial, please stay civil and don't make personal comments about other users simply because you disagree fundamentally with them.

Flamed Diving

bbam wrote: »

murphaph & irish_bob

You guys are a bloody disgrase to the nation... Shame on you

Seconded. Ignorance worn like a badge of pride.

implausible

murphaph wrote: »

No surprises but this is disgraceful. OAPs are the least likely to have ANY significant debt! The 204 quid a week PER PERSON state pension (excluding ALL the other benefits OAPs get!) is simply too high.

irish_bob wrote: »

OAP,s recieve 232 euro per week plus a raft of other benefits , i agree they are far too spoiled but they are the most important voter demographic

I can't believe what I'm reading! The last people who should be attacked are the OAPs. Most have worked hard all their lives when the economy was in the sh*tter, when mortgage interest rates were 13% and have paid their taxes and their dues to this state. They built this country and people are seriously thinking of rewarding this by penalising them financially!

The least you are entitled to in any civilised society is a safe and comfortable old age. You can measure a society by how it treats its most vulnerable.

I'm appalled.

boodlesdoodles

murphaph wrote: »

I see the usual emotive, let's not analyse anything attitude is alive and well!

How the bloody hell can a typical OAP (mortgage free, probably living in an oversized house that they could easily downsize from) be more vulnerable than a young unemployed family??

OAPs simply don't need this much money. It's too much. Any OAP who is claiming all their allowances and who still spends every penny of their pension is a spendthrift.

You lads have no idea how much of this pension money is being hoarded for inheritances.

I'll give you my analysis shall I? My father started working as a farm labourer at the age of 14 and retired at 65 as a gardener/caretaker. He contributed to the exchequer all his life and hence my mother can claim her widow's contributory pension. She now lives alone. Why shouldn't the people who've already had their working lives be entitled to their contributions? Be entitled to a decent pension? I'm not going to contribute to this thread anymore because its making me really angry. This country if fecked if this thread is representative of the society that's been produced.

thatsa spicy

People having emotional attacks at people who even suggest a cut in the living standards of those on the OAP should get real. Do they expect that we should leave them alone and even further increase the tax burden on everybody else?

Nobody is going to starve...they just won't be able to put money away for inheritences. And yes, really, nobody is going to starve. On 232 a week? They should have their mortgage paid off by now and bills for one or two people don't come to that much.

oscarBravo

bbam wrote: »

murphaph & irish_bob

You guys are a bloody disgrase to the nation... Shame on you

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Seconded. Ignorance worn like a badge of pride.

What part of "don't get personal" is unclear?

Gumbo

nesf wrote: »

So two posters say they want to cut the OAP and you paint the rest of boards with that brush?


In general please don't get personal guys, the OAP is something that is very controversial, please stay civil and don't make personal comments about other users simply because you disagree fundamentally with them.

in fairness they've being doing it in regards to the PS bashing for months!
assuming all PS workers earn 50k or even 40k for that matter!

Drumpot

deemark wrote: »

The least you are entitled to in any civilised society is a safe and comfortable old age. You can measure a society by how it treats its most vulnerable.

I'm appalled.

Welcome to Ireland post celtic Tiger . .

I think most people I know in this country don't actually appreciate what they have . .. They constantly look at others and point fingers at what they want and blame everybody else for their own problems. .

They want others to bail them out . . Ignore the harsh reality of the importance of a bank bailout and demand a NAMA for them . . Its really really sad and with those kind of attitudes we havent learned a thing. .

If our country got together, showed true empathy for one another and worked harder for ALL the vunerable (that might mean getting paid less!), we would get out of the recession stronger. .

Happiness is a state of mind, not decided by your bank balance. Some here might do well to remember that . .

nesf

kceire wrote: »

in fairness they've being doing it in regards to the PS bashing for months!

Anyone who's gotten personal with a user has gotten warned by me. If I missed a post, I apologise.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

If pensioners are NOT in debt, then there's a damn good reason for it: they haven't been greedy and they have been wise with their money. Why should they pay for some greedy ****wit's mistakes?

Flamed Diving

If you want social justice from this recent crisis, which generation do you think should get hit?

1) The OAP's who worked their whole lives, shrewdly saved and never over-reached with bank loans?

2) Or the generation who amassed the largest private debt-to-gdp ratio in the world? Who never saved, and took out loans they could never afford, to buy things they never needed and to own "portfolios" of property they didn't even work for? Feck it, the very generation who created the mess?

And you want to hit column 1? When they did nothing to cause this crisis?

Get lost.

amacachi

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If pensioners are NOT in debt, then there's a damn good reason for it: they haven't been greedy and they have been wise with their money. Why should they pay for some greedy ****wit's mistakes?

By that logic why should I pay for their healthcare?

The only debt I have is from paying college fees. Collective responsibility and consequences is a feature of living in an organised state.

Duiske

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Much more lenient than I expected tbh.
As of tomorrow, we owe 75 Bill

More lenient ? What exactly did you want ? The Government want 4 Billion in cuts, and thats what they are going to get. Did you want more cuts ?

Don't forget. They are going to have to do the same next year, and the year after.

maryjane007

lads the pensioners arent a problem .if the social welfare got out and caught the ones who have made a fortune out of the state. the 'supposedly' lone parents. i know people who used it save for their weddings, the amount of peope claiming lone parents, doing ce schemes and have a fella living with them whos working is an absolute disgrace to this country.

Dr Galen

while i agree that there appears, even anecdotally, to be quite a bit of welfare fraud going on, it's not going to fix the issue at hand. Even if we had zero welfare fraud going on, we'd save very little out of the total welfare bill and big cuts would still need to be made

maryjane007

i know but its a start. a lone parent with 2 children would get roughly 250 a week and back to school of just over 800 a year, take away their medical card and should be at least 15 grand a year saved for one family and i can think of 3 people out of the 20 houses on my road who are illegaly claiming it so i can imagine what the figures are like nationwide.

heavyballs

maryjane007 wrote: »

lads the pensioners arent a problem .if the social welfare got out and caught the ones who have made a fortune out of the state. the 'supposedly' lone parents. i know people who used it save for their weddings, the amount of peope claiming lone parents, doing ce schemes and have a fella living with them whos working is an absolute disgrace to this country.

totally agree with ya,i have a 'lone parent' 2 doors down in a new estate, i bought my house 2 years ago ,needless to say i have a huge mortgage but that' was my choice so i'm not giving out,however,the sight of her bf's souped up Impreza outside the house makes me sick,where do i report this?

Dr Galen

well all i can say is that if you know of such fraud going on, then report it. I'd imagine the dept would be very interested in it.

Maryjane, i don't disagree with your thoughts. Welfare fraud needs to reported and tackled. Its a drop in the ocean though in the scheme of things, more moeny needs to be found.

amacachi

heavyballs wrote: »

totally agree with ya,i have a 'lone parent' 2 doors down in a new estate, i bought my house 2 years ago ,needless to say i have a huge mortgage but that' was my choice so i'm not giving out,however,the sight of her bf's souped up Impreza outside the house makes me sick,where do i report this?

Fairly sure that's fine once he's not claiming the dole. It's a daft system which they're meant to be getting rid of.
http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr210109.aspx has info at the bottom for reporting suspect claims.

maryjane007

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

Maryjane, i don't disagree with your thoughts. Welfare fraud needs to reported and tackled. Its a drop in the ocean though in the scheme of things, more moeny needs to be found.

yeah true, anyway my point was why try take a few bob off pensioners when you can take it off these crooks.

amacachi

maryjane007 wrote: »

yeah true, anyway my point was why try take a few bob off pensioners when you can take it off these crooks.

Both should be done, trouble is that investigating isn't all that easy, and a lot of people still won't report it.

old boy

thatsa spicy wrote: »

People having emotional attacks at people who even suggest a cut in the living standards of those on the OAP should get real. Do they expect that we should leave them alone and even further increase the tax burden on everybody else?

Nobody is going to starve...they just won't be able to put money away for inheritences. And yes, really, nobody is going to starve. On 232 a week? They should have their mortgage paid off by now and bills for one or two people don't come to that much.

pensioners spend more on heating than young people, every job requiring doing has to be paid for, most young people can diy. quite a few pensioners do not recieve 232 pw, i recieve 204 for instance, their houses are older, colder, costs more to maintain, every little thing has to be paid for, also please remember people of our generation have very little saved, because if you look back on wages they were never that high in our working life, we had unreal tax rates, unbelivable interest rates, if we have anything it is towards our funerals, that is the way we were reared and trained, and for quite a long time in our lives just existed.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

amacachi wrote: »

By that logic why should I pay for their healthcare?

The only debt I have is from paying college fees. Collective responsibility and consequences is a feature of living in an organised state.

Are you a bank manager or a Fianna Fail politician? "Collective responsibility" my arse!

The_Honeybadger

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

If pensioners are NOT in debt, then there's a damn good reason for it: they haven't been greedy and they have been wise with their money. Why should they pay for some greedy ****wit's mistakes?

Fair play to you agree 100%

Dannyboy83

Duiske wrote: »

More lenient ? What exactly did you want ? The Government want 4 Billion in cuts, and thats what they are going to get. Did you want more cuts ?

Don't forget. They are going to have to do the same next year, and the year after.

Thats precisely my point.
Think of it in basic cumulative terms.

For every 1 billion they don't save now, that they must continue to borrow, thats ((1billion) + (risk*interest)).

The McCarthy report recommended in the range of €5.3 billion.
There seems to have been little point in commissioning the report.

Also, they reducing Capital spending by 1 billion..........in a recession......

We are supposed to be having pain.
Most of the supposed pain here will probably be offset by deflation.
Yet out debt spirals into ever more insane territory.

I can't help but get the feeling that this is tied into NAMA.
More deflation = more losses against the NAMA balance sheet.

jackofalltrades

Flamed Diving wrote:

If you want social justice from this recent crisis, which generation do you think should get hit?

1) The OAP's who worked their whole lives, shrewdly saved and never over-reached with bank loans?

2) Or the generation who amassed the largest private debt-to-gdp ratio in the world? Who never saved, and took out loans they could never afford, to buy things they never needed and to own "portfolios" of property they didn't even work for? Feck it, the very generation who created the mess?

And you want to hit column 1? When they did nothing to cause this crisis?

The spending splurge of the second group, created the temporary tax revenue that was used to increase the pension of the first group.

Now that the temporary spending has stopped that the unsustainable spending has to stop too.

Its not about justice or who's fault it is, the money just isn't there anymore.

Social welfare cuts should be should be applied across the board to make them fair. No group should be untouchable, just beacuse they vote in large numbers.

LaLucy

Jesus will everyone calm down. I definitely agree OAP's should be left alone for the love of god I was so glad to see that. People are very ignorant of the elderly. You know there are actually old people who smoke so have to feed that habit every week? They have been smoking so long they can't give up now. Leave them out of it I say. They have the right to just relax for the rest of their lives and have a warm home and the basic necessities. I do think they should crack down on one parent allowance fraud because I know plenty of people who have been doing that for years and it is sort of annoying. On top of this they over indulge on fast foods and unhealthy living which is not good for any kid. I think you should have the right to the dole and the right to live in your own place meeting basic needs but you should not pretend to be single parent when you're not

DO'Carlo/Wex

Re: Welfare Fraud:
A Prime Time Investigates Special will air this Monday 7th December @ 21.35 on RTE One.

There are different types of fraud from the Lone Parents being claimed for when in reality the LP is co-habiting to JB or JA whilst working in the Black Economy to claiming while living abroad (I.E., Flying back in Once a Month to Sign On whilst each week getting paid electronically) etc.
You'd want to be fair sure the person you're assuming & accusing of committing fraud actually is.
You could end-up with egg on your' face even if it is anonymous & if you're genuinely wrong, guilt.
I know of at least one person who's a Social Welfare Tourist on JA since April 2008 & flying in & out since August 2008 iirc but as issue is too close to home (he Irish btw not foreign as the red-tops were losing the rag over last year iirc) I'm in a Catch 22 Situation regarding reporting.
If it were anybody else I'd be e-mailing Central.Control@Welfare.ie

I'm on JB myself since February 2009 & last day I signed on I was given a form to bring back in Janyury for transfering over to JA as my year is up Febyuary 11th 2010.
Now when I was working, I saved like a Billy Goat & when I were laid-off, I still did because I moved home (at 31!) so didn't have overhead of rent.
I've amassed a considerable sum but feel I'll be effectively punished for having good-sense to save for rainy day.
I think there is a threshold below which you're SW Payment Amount won't be touched/altered but I'd imagine I'm above that by 15K Approx. (my GUESS is threshold is E20K but I'm very new to SW so could be wrong!) between Bank & CU Account.
Any sudgestions?
I have to be honest when I fill out form & declare all my accounts.

I fully expect the 5% sudgested in OPs TV3 Report to mean as of December 9th my JB will be E194.30 if my Math is right?

I'd also be suprised if Rent Allowance Contribution (& thresholds around the country) aren't reduced by State & increased for Tenant.
For E.G.
In S.E.Ireland a One Bed Apartament is paid out on up to E108/Week or E468/Month.
State Pays E84 & Tenant E24.
I expect the State Threshold to be reduced possibly by E3 to E105 or maybe by E8 to E100.
I expect State Contribution to be reduced by E4 to E80 & Tenant Contribution to be INCREASED by E6 to E30.

That could be a double-whammy for people & indeed as I'm isolated in a fairly rural parish was thinking of moving out again to give myself a better chance of training & employment.
Now, I'm having 2d thoughts & definitely won't be doing anything this side of 2010 I'd say.
Possibly even wait til JA situation is dealt with.

green123

carlo,

here is a link to how the means test works :

http://www.welfare.ie/syndicatedcontent/en/irish-social-welfare-system/means-test-for-social-welfare-payments/means-test-for-jobseekers-allowance/



Capital Weekly means assessed
First €20,000 Nil
Next €10,000 €1 per €1,000
Next €10,000 €2 per €1,000
Balance (€40,000 ) €4 per €1,000


For example

If you have €55,000 savings:

The first €20,000 is assessed as nil, €20,000 to €30,000 is assessed as €10, €30,000 to €40,000 is assessed as €20, €40,000 and €55,000 is assessed as €60.

€10 €20 €60 = €90

Savings of €55,000 gives a means of €90 per week.

so your payment in this case is reduced by €90 per week

gurramok

Yeh, the prudent are penalised for been prudent. Carlo, you should of spent or hid your money via cash under the mattress or something to get what you were entitled to.

If you recklessly spent your savings on lets say a state of the art BMW or got a huge mortgage, you'd get full welfare entitlements.