Advice on a program to iron out muscle imbalances and strengthen core

Vampireskiss

I know a decent bit about nutrition but when it comes to program design I am not as knowledgable,I feel I have poor posture and love working out my chest and shoulders so much that I feel I have neglected my back, Its even visual that my shoulders are starting to roll forward, any advice on this.Im thinking of really focusing on pullups and deadlifts

InKonspikuou2

Good core stregthening exercises are deadlifts, squats and some variation of a standing overhead press. I change programs every 2 or 3 months. Mostly 3. And i don't think i've ever missed out on the above 3 exercises.

There are lots of 5x5 or 4x6 programs out there that primarily focus on building strength and do not leave much out of proportion. Just search in google and you will find lots. There is a good one called starting strength by Mark Rippetoe that should be on this page somewhere.

Hanley

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

Good core stregthening exercises are deadlifts, squats and some variation of a standing overhead press. I change programs every 2 or 3 months. Mostly 3. And i don't think i've ever missed out on the above 3 exercises.

There are lots of 5x5 or 4x6 programs out there that primarily focus on building strength and do not leave much out of proportion. Just search in google and you will find lots. There is a good one called starting strength by Mark Rippetoe that should be on this page somewhere.

Squats and deadlifts are p!ss all use when it comes to specific core issues. It's not exactly hard or taxing to do dedicate core work. I don't know why so many people actively try to avoid it by saying "squats and deadlifts".

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

Squats and deadlifts are p!ss all use when it comes to specific core issues. It's not exactly hard or taxing to do dedicate core work. I don't know why so many people actively try to avoid it by saying "squats and deadlifts".

Surely though OP's shoulders going forward will be helped by doing them.

What do you do for your Core Uncle Hanley?

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Surely though OP's shoulders going forward will be helped by doing them.

What do you do for your Core Uncle Hanley?

More shoulder work will help shoulder roll... hmmm

Squats and DLs have pretty much no function when it comes to retracting the scaps, which seems to be the OP's problems.

Lots of rows, band pull aparts etc would do a better job. Think Transform posted a good video on his blog a while ago.

RE: core work... see my log, but a brief list (tailored to my own needs, and not necessarily at the right level for the OP);
-pulldown abs
-weighted sit ups
-decline sit ups (w/ or wo/ weight)
-decline sit ups holding a bar overhead
-planks
-TGUs
etc etc

There's a TON of actual core exercises that you can do instead of blindly hoping to save 10 minutes per day 2-3x a week by using just squats and deads.

bigstar

d'Oracle wrote: »

Surely though OP's shoulders going forward will be helped by doing them.

squats or deads wont do much for his shoulders. upper back work will. i like face pulls and rows. rear delt flys, voyer shrugs and db powercleans courtesy of mr L.

try some of those for a while OP. i have similar issues and thats what im doing.

and dont forget to stretch your chest and shoulders. thats important too

d'Oracle

Sorry guys, I didn't think that one through.
I had typed a longer post about pull ups and deads, but thought it sounded like I was being all knowy, so I cut it back.

I don't honestly think that squats will help shoulder roll.:D

But I did think that Deads would, from something I read about getting the shoulders ahead of the bar and getting the lats involved.

I also read an article against direct core work. It was by Rip.
I'm starting to sound like a cultist.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Sorry guys, I didn't think that one through.
I had typed a longer post about pull ups and deads, but thought it sounded like I was being all knowy, so I cut it back.

I don't honestly think that squats will help shoulder roll.:D

But I did think that Deads would, from something I read about getting the shoulders ahead of the bar and getting the lats involved.

I also read an article against direct core work. It was by Rip.
I'm starting to sound like a cultist.

I love how he is a hypocrite. Unstable surface training makes no sense for athletes because that's not what happens in the real world, but an evenly loaded and distributed barbell is all you need. Good old proximity bias at play.

"Let me ask all you “core stability” people a question (okay, a few questions): why don’t you just squat?
What the hell is wrong with your reasoning ability here? Are the effects of deadlifts, cleans, presses,
and squats too complicated for you to appreciate? Do you not see that an athlete with a 200 lb. press,
a 300 lb. clean, a 400 lb. squat, and a 500 lb. deadlift has a stronger “core” than your runner who can
just manage to do a Standing Reverse Wood-chop with a 2 kg medicine ball? Where did you manage
to find a 2 kg medicine ball anyway?"

Sh!t I bet they can curl more too... but so what?? Can they run as well as the runner??? He saying this in the context of a 200lb male... how many 90kg runners do you guys know?

I only skimmed most of that article, but in the last couple of pages Rippetoe comes across as being a hugely arrogant ar$ehole. Imo, of course.

EDITED:
And he doesn't even address the exercises I'm talking about above. All he talks about is UST and seated one arm presses w/ 3lb dumbbells. Next time one of you guys are at the gym, trying dumbbell push pressing a 3rm one side at a time and tell me that does nothing for your core.

He seems to think "direct core work" is synonymous with the bosu ball and swiss ball. I've thrown a list of exercises up there that have worked well for me, some that Transform has recommended and a few I've seen being used by ACTUAL strength and conditioning coaches. Is all of that nullified cos "Rip" said so?

Hanley

He talks about reasoning ability ffs.... How the fcuk did he reach the conclusion that if you want to train and improve a specific area you SHOULDN'T train it??

It's this whole "do chins and rows to make your biceps grow" horsesh!t all over again.

d'Oracle

Hanley wrote: »

Is all of that nullified cos "Rip" said so?

Not at all.....
Just looking for your opinion.

I do plenty of direct abs stuff myself.

Hanley

d'Oracle wrote: »

Not at all.....
Just looking for your opinion.

I do plenty of direct abs stuff myself.

I should really qualify what I'm saying and state that I do genuinely like most of Mark's teachings. I think SS is an amazing coaching book, and agree with most of the no nonsense anti-bullsh!t lift heavy approach that he pushes... But at times I think he goes WAY over the top with certain beliefs. This is one of them!!

celestial

Hmm, I get where Rippetoe is coming from though. Doing core work as part of an overall routine is brilliant, but this whole 'how do I work my core thing' as if it were this massive big deal is a complete red herring in terms of what your average gym goer (or anyone, really) should be focusing on. The fact is, how many people do you know who do full body workouts on a regular basis who have a core that is weak or needs work? If someone works out properly and consistently then I don't see them not being able to, for example, hold a plank position for a minute 30 seconds or two minutes at least. And if they are working out hard, easily more.

Deadlift, squat, row, run, sprint whatever - also do sit-ups, plank, pull-downs etc. Just don't go dwelling on what your 'core' needs - it IS getting trained by the more consequential stuff anyway.

InKonspikuou2

Hanley wrote: »

Squats and deadlifts are p!ss all use when it comes to specific core issues. It's not exactly hard or taxing to do dedicate core work. I don't know why so many people actively try to avoid it by saying "squats and deadlifts".

I wasn't referring to his shoulder issue. I was talking about core in general as he mentioned strength core in his title and said he neglected his back. That is why i told him to search for them. I actually did not catch his shoulder problem in his question. The title through me.

I don't really do direct core work other than hanging leg raises and all has worked for me. But not to say it works for everyone. Some people need to do direct core work. For most that is disproved in the world of weight lifting there is somebody that can prove it. It is full of contradictions. One reputable person saying this and another saying that.

Hanley

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

I wasn't referring to his shoulder issue. I was talking about core in general as he mentioned strength core in his title and said he neglected his back. That is why i told him to search for them. I actually did not catch his shoulder problem in his question. The title through me.

I don't really do direct core work other than hanging leg raises and all has worked for me. But not to say it works for everyone. Some people need to do direct core work. For most that is disproved in the world of weight lifting there is somebody that can prove it. It is full of contradictions. One reputable person saying this and another saying that.

I find it very hard to believe that someone can confidently say that targeted, direct core work with the aim of increasing squat and deadlift strength will not have a positive effect in that area.

Not so sure on sports application, but I would assume the same holds true.

Both of the above are obviously in addition to training the "normal" lifts as well.

Inspector Coptoor

direct core training has been lacking in my programme for the last while save for 5 x 10 hanging leg raises on deadlift day, and as i dont use a belt for squat or deadlift, weak abdominals could be a contributing factor to poor form and subsequently less weight lifted.

have put more direct core work in now, both front and back, hopefully it'll be beneficial

InKonspikuou2

Hanley wrote: »

I find it very hard to believe that someone can confidently say that targeted, direct core work with the aim of increasing squat and deadlift strength will not have a positive effect in that area.

Not so sure on sports application, but I would assume the same holds true.

Both of the above are obviously in addition to training the "normal" lifts as well.

Well i don't necessarily believe it but i have read many articles that put down direct core work and talk about the big 3 compound movements. Only way to increase squat and deadlift is to squat and deadlift etc etc. They show routines and results and it all looks convincing.

Since so many stabilizing muscles are used in those lifts i am more inclined to believe strength can be achieved through other means. I began to neglect direct core work years ago and i feel i got stronger with better form. But since everybody responds differently the same can not be applied to all. I have seen so many weird routines and then seen their results. And many times i have been surprised they achieved what they have.

kevpants

InKonspikuou2 wrote: »

Well i don't necessarily believe it but i have read many articles that put down direct core work and talk about the big 3 compound movements. Only way to increase squat and deadlift is to squat and deadlift etc etc. They show routines and results and it all looks convincing.

Since so many stabilizing muscles are used in those lifts i am more inclined to believe strength can be achieved through other means. I began to neglect direct core work years ago and i feel i got stronger with better form. But since everybody responds differently the same can not be applied to all. I have seen so many weird routines and then seen their results. And many times i have been surprised they achieved what they have.

The crux of the issue is that when people advise against direct core work in favour of squats etc they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You of course have to be training and improving your squat and deadlift before you can bitch about core training. It's an essential addition to your squat training though. I mean the idea is that you can just squat away all your squat weaknesses doesn't really hold water. Eventually I suppose, you will. However squatting is an intense exercise and it makes no sense burning out from nothing but squatting when heavy direct ab work is an option.

Let me think of one of my trademark barely relevant similes... making a cake! Say you are using a teaspoon to mix the flour and eggs and stuff (mmm cake). You are going to be held back by the spoon size. You can argue that the mixing action is squatting and the spoon is your abs. If you just keep mixing, you'll eventually get there. However if you went and got a bigger spoon, you'd get there quicker. However a big spoon is of no use if you don't bother your ass mixing. Ta Daaaaa!!!

InKonspikuou2

kevpants wrote: »

The crux of the issue is that when people advise against direct core work in favour of squats etc they throw the baby out with the bathwater.

You of course have to be training and improving your squat and deadlift before you can bitch about core training. It's an essential addition to your squat training though. I mean the idea is that you can just squat away all your squat weaknesses doesn't really hold water. Eventually I suppose, you will. However squatting is an intense exercise and it makes no sense burning out from nothing but squatting when heavy direct ab work is an option.

Let me think of one of my trademark barely relevant similes... making a cake! Say you are using a teaspoon to mix the flour and eggs and stuff (mmm cake). You are going to be held back by the spoon size. You can argue that the mixing action is squatting and the spoon is your abs. If you just keep mixing, you'll eventually get there. However if you went and got a bigger spoon, you'd get there quicker. However a big spoon is of no use if you don't bother your ass mixing. Ta Daaaaa!!!

I agree. Looking back there is no way i would have been able to cut out direct core work without first building up a good core which has allowed me to avoid doing them. I used to do a lot of planks, push ups, russian twists, back extensions and even sprinting. Even now i usually take a break after 12 weeks and don't lift for a week. I still continue cardio but do core work for the week and change my program upon return.

I wouldn't advise against core work out right. I'd need to see the person train first, find out their goals, current stats, how long they have been training, etc.

Roper

Ze core is not some self contained ball of muscle. Everything is connected. I'm serious, it is. I heard a song about it once, it starts with the ankle and works it's way up.

OP, pull more stuff towards you, regularly. Pull ups and rows should be a key feature of your workout. All the other stuff for your abs and back etc., do some of it every day, but don't get bogged down in it.

Vampireskiss

I should add that Dumbell presses especially if Im super setting is are beginning to cause some distress in my left hand side bicep/shoulder area, the pain goes Immediately after I put the weigh down and I can not do any biceps exercises what so ever as I just have to but the barbell or db bells down before I get actual muscular failure as the pain is too distressing, its not a sharp pain or localised to one area either

One thing that has helped is upping the weight and decreasing the reps in each set for example, instead of 12 of 20 kg in each hand of db presses I get much more relief from 4-6 reps of 30kg each hand, its not the weight thats causing it its the time its takes to complete the set, which is longer with higher rep sets.

ilovelamp2000

I'm one of those people whose shoulders are a bit too far forward and I've had plenty of success with some of the things already mentioned in this thread.


I'd get the shoulder checked out if I was you, given the imbalances and where the pain is it could well be a rotator cuff issue. Again I've had exactly the same problem, although I tore mine whilst playing rugby.

What worked for me was leaving out things like presses, chin/pull ups, lat pull down, upright rows and avoiding all overhead lifting. Instead I did some dumbell flys to open out the chest, and a few different rows - I found the single arm dumbell row was particularly good for pulling the shoulder back. Face Pulls really do the trick as well, but make sure the cable is above your shoulder level so that you're pulling downwards a little bit.

For the rotator cuff, I had to do lots of YTWL lifting. It's dull, repetitive and ultimately fairly humbling but it's the reason why I no longer have shoulder pain and can now do most of the exercises I had to leave out at the beginning

Transform did have an excellent video on shoulders too, it's short but well worth looking at :http://www.youtube.com/user/Transform1234#p/u/4/1oLCwkvul_o

Transform

Rosco1982 wrote: »

I'm one of those people whose shoulders are a bit too far forward and I've had plenty of success with some of the things already mentioned in this thread.


I'd get the shoulder checked out if I was you, given the imbalances and where the pain is it could well be a rotator cuff issue. Again I've had exactly the same problem, although I tore mine whilst playing rugby.

What worked for me was leaving out things like presses, chin/pull ups, lat pull down, upright rows and avoiding all overhead lifting. Instead I did some dumbell flys to open out the chest, and a few different rows - I found the single arm dumbell row was particularly good for pulling the shoulder back. Face Pulls really do the trick as well, but make sure the cable is above your shoulder level so that you're pulling downwards a little bit.

For the rotator cuff, I had to do lots of YTWL lifting. It's dull, repetitive and ultimately fairly humbling but it's the reason why I no longer have shoulder pain and can now do most of the exercises I had to leave out at the beginning

Transform did have an excellent video on shoulders too, it's short but well worth looking at :http://www.youtube.com/user/Transform1234#p/u/4/1oLCwkvul_o

this one is better for shoulder work even though its not instructional

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l90gwRyERPA