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Aer Lingus Deadlines.

  • 01-12-2009 09:44AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭


    Today 01 Dec. is an important day and it looks like the auld war horses out at the Dublin Airport have finally realised that if you try to compete on price, costs HAVE to drop.

    EI board meeting later this evening, which will apparently make changes unilaterally if no basis for agreement reached.

    My contacts tell me that 4 weeks per yr of service is the offer to achieve 676 redundancies.

    Could be a pivotal day in the history of EI.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 562 ✭✭✭Comordha


    Would you invest?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    As a bit of a punt I might, but nothing I couldn't afford to lose.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 987 ✭✭✭diverdriver


    It could mean the difference between having an Aer Lingus or closing the book on the history of one of the most well legacy carriers out there. The workers, including my brother know this. Ryanair would step in and replace them in weeks.

    I note too that it's crunch day on the other, big issue of PS pay, not unrelated as EI was always a bit of a state entity.

    December the 1st 2009 may well be remembered.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Yes it appears that at long last the workforce have realised that this is the end game.

    Hopefully they will tell the union warhorses that the game is up and if EI have any chance of survival,then the first step, I say again, the first step, is to get costs under some kind of economic control.

    It's time that the unsung heroes get up and tell the motor mouthed militants that they have a voice.

    The militants always have the back door ready,some people out there depend on the survival of EI for a job and income.

    Don't be afraid to stand up and confront them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    I take it EI will get their way on remuneration for long haul crew?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Are we talking abouts pilots or cabin crew or both.

    not familiar with the details.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    Are we talking abouts pilots or cabin crew or both.

    not familiar with the details.

    I'm not overly familiar with either, but the press briefings seemed to suggest EI management wanted to target pay and allowances for both pilots AND cabin crew. I've also heard similar from staff within the company.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Yes ,my sources tell me that that could be a sticking point.

    Possible to get agreement with the rest of the staff but pilots and cabin crew not for turning it seems.

    Four weeks per yos capped + statutory would appear to be the offer, far less fa far less than previous.

    Current share price of 55.5 could be worth a punt based on the workforce seeing the writing on the wall and a take over of sorts.

    cannot see EI surviving as a separate entity.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Appears the pilots were looking for the Company to bankroll their disastrous share buying scheme at the time of the FR takeover bid.

    my personal opinion is that when the unions see that they are dealing with a different animal now, and as Bertie is not lurking in the background ,something can be worked out.

    Pilots will be the hardest to do business with as they have invested mega bucks into that share buying scenario, and will seek to recover from that.

    Best of luck to all concerned as no one wants to see EI sink without trace.


    Reality is slowly breaking over Dublin Airport though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Latest news is that CM is setting up the scene for compulsory redundancies.

    Wonder will the unions realise the horse has bolted;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Mailman


    When they talk about selling off surplus aircraft I assume they mean all the A330s.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 267 ✭✭Lifelike


    Whatever happens I hope that Aer Lingus don't go too far down the Ryanair road. It's worth paying that little bit extra for the extra comfort of Aer Lingus.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭gaff85


    Lifelike wrote: »
    Whatever happens I hope that Aer Lingus don't go too far down the Ryanair road. It's worth paying that little bit extra for the extra comfort of Aer Lingus.

    I totally agree, however the company had over a billion in cash reserves 12 months ago and this is whittling down daily due to over employment for the size of the fleet.

    They should out sources all ground handling at Dublin, cork and Shannon along with all auxiliary services and just concentrate on the flying until such time as they get out of the slump they are presently in.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭gaff85


    Mailman wrote: »
    When they talk about selling off surplus aircraft I assume they mean all the A330s.

    I'd say possible some of the older A320's and also the A321's, A couple of the A330's are coming to the end of there lease, however there are two scheduled to arrive from Airbus over the next 18 months, so they may lease these or base them in Belfast/gatwick, where the costs are significantly lower than Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dacian


    Gaff: EI never had a billion in cash. they had approx E800M after privatisation, they now have E400-500M left. But they did buy two new A330 this year with some (E140M) of that cash. But we still have at anywhere from E160M-E265M cash gone. What happened to the cost saving they got from staff last year? Does that increase the cash burnt?

    And the articles in the papers about selling a/c mentioned the term sale and lease back. So I assume this is a way to raise money quickly but still keep the use of the a/c?

    Can they start compulsary redundancies while still in talkswith staff? Surely they have have to wait for talks at the labour court to collapse or a strike to do so? Is this just a ploy to force the staff to capitulate?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Meeting of the EI board later today.

    They will consider latest cabin crew proposals.

    Company seem determined to cut through the bulldust which has unfortunately dogged negotiations with this company over the years.

    The time for window dressing and deck chair moving is gone.

    For the sake of the many genuine punters out there I hope sanity prevails.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Looks like the company can deal with the cabin crew...


    Evan seems to be the last man standing.....might be time to request an altitude reduction to avoid turb:cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭alpha2zulu


    Looks like the company can deal with the cabin crew...


    Evan seems to be the last man standing.....might be time to request an altitude reduction to avoid turb:cool:

    Have to say though, my guilty pleasure this week has been reading some of the posts by a certain camel on another forum. Although I keep telling myself hes wrong, biased, just propaganda from the competition etc, some of the points said individual makes are pretty valid.

    It's so sad to see extra jobs over the 676 on the line, because although I havent worked for EI myself,chances are if its anyway like other union environmnets I've worked in, its the few old dragons at the top driving the negotiations ship, whilst the new and younger guys just go along with it out of fear of intimidation from their more senior colleagues.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    alpha2zulu wrote: »
    Have to say though, my guilty pleasure this week has been reading some of the posts by a certain camel on another forum. Although I keep telling myself hes wrong, biased, just propaganda from the competition etc, some of the points said individual makes are pretty valid.

    It's so sad to see extra jobs over the 676 on the line, because although I havent worked for EI myself,chances are if its anyway like other union environmnets I've worked in, its the few old dragons at the top driving the negotiations ship, whilst the new and younger guys just go along with it out of fear of intimidation from their more senior colleagues.


    he heh... beating my drum buddy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Good man Leo!!!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 duck_77


    Given the current state of the nation and the sacrafices made by a lot of other people, can the pilots really feel they are justified in certain amounts claimed in the article (I'm calling it a claim because I have no proof either way)

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece

    i.e. a 21% Company Contribution to Pension - Is this realistic given that most companies only provide between 5-10%? Some don't provide contributions at all and forces employees to PRSA's/Private Pensions.

    Taking simplistic numbers:
    590 Pilots @ 52,500 per pilot - EUR30,680,000 PA. Even halving this would be a massive saving.

    There are plenty of other items discussed here and I appreciate any employee trying to keep the terms and conditions they were hired under. However, these are changed times, not the Celtic Tiger anymore where you can just expect things (earnings, customers etc) to keep their upward trend.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    duck_77 wrote: »
    Given the current state of the nation and the sacrafices made by a lot of other people, can the pilots really feel they are justified in certain amounts claimed in the article (I'm calling it a claim because I have no proof either way)

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece

    i.e. a 21% Company Contribution to Pension - Is this realistic given that most companies only provide between 5-10%? Some don't provide contributions at all and forces employees to PRSA's/Private Pensions.

    Taking simplistic numbers:
    590 Pilots @ 52,500 per pilot - EUR30,680,000 PA. Even halving this would be a massive saving.

    There are plenty of other items discussed here and I appreciate any employee trying to keep the terms and conditions they were hired under. However, these are changed times, not the Celtic Tiger anymore where you can just expect things (earnings, customers etc) to keep their upward trend.


    Heh heh that excellent logic doesn't apply to those guys:cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭bladeruner


    alpha2zulu wrote: »
    Have to say though, my guilty pleasure this week has been reading some of the posts by a certain camel on another forum. Although I keep telling myself hes wrong, biased, just propaganda from the competition etc, some of the points said individual makes are pretty valid.

    .

    Yes . I said the same thing after reading some of Stalin's correspondence.

    Anyone can make a valid point every now and again .
    But could you really take anything that former training captain ( thats who LEO is ) says seriously ?
    I couldnt ...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Bottom line, Evan has a fight on his hands, not a roll over and tickle my tummy guy is Herr Muller;)

    let's see how they get out of this one.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭Highly Salami


    Pilots said no agreement with management,
    source http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1209/aerlingus.html

    Ryanair allowed to make a third bid for Aer Lingus at the end of January.
    Will they make a bid?
    Would Michael O'Leary's support for Lisbon II make it more possible this time?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭bladeruner



    Ryanair allowed to make a third bid for Aer Lingus at the end of January.
    Will they make a bid?
    Would Michael O'Leary's support for Lisbon II make it more possible this time?


    yes & probably yes imho
    goverment preference for 2 big airlines policy still blocks it though


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 216 ✭✭Highly Salami


    bladeruner wrote: »
    yes & probably yes imho
    goverment preference for 2 big airlines policy still blocks it though

    I thought it was EU competition rules that blocked it last time, the government has only 25% shareholding and so cant block it (I think).
    If they can block it, they may decide to let Ryanair takeover if it is clear the company would go bust anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭bladeruner


    I thought it was EU competition rules that blocked it last time, the government has only 25% shareholding and so cant block it (I think).
    If they can block it, they may decide to let Ryanair takeover if it is clear the company would go bust anyway.

    it was the EU that blocked it last on competition grounds. not much has changed there, but there is a new EU competition comissioner.It was Neelie croes that blocked it last time.
    the goverment do only have 25% but realistically i cant see the EU approving a hostile take over with out a nod from the goverment.
    finally ,it isnt clear that the company will go bust so i dont think they could draw that conclusion ,particularly by this january.
    O leary is only gagging to have another shot though so expect a bid


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 169 ✭✭DonnieBrasco


    after oleary pleased the commissioner with his Lisbon Yes campaign i expect there's no chance the EU blocking this time.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 812 ✭✭✭Dacian


    ..........the government has only 25% shareholding and so cant block it.............they may decide to let Ryanair takeover if it is clear the company would go bust anyway.
    EI aren't going to go bust within a month. They still have the cash to last 2 years at current cash burn rate. I read in the papers that they are doing investor briefings in January, oviously trying to find backers to halt any hostile Ryanair bid.
    after oleary pleased the commissioner with his Lisbon Yes campaign i expect there's no chance the EU blocking this time.
    Would be dubious of the EU being so indiscreet. There are a lot of people watching and the media drew attention to Micks Yes to Lisbon roadshow(airshow?)

    Just listened to the RTE clip of the Aer Lingus pilot being interviewed. He has a point....if Aer Lingus wanted 30M savings and they offered 33M annually..........surely the company should want to take the deal. Am sure there is more to it than those simple totals,but ti sounds good. He also stated that the pilots would look after the deficit in their pension fund, that was the funny point mooted previously,it seemed very optimistic,that the company should look after that gap.

    Am I being too simplistic?


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