Aer Lingus Deadlines.

FlutterinBantam

Today 01 Dec. is an important day and it looks like the auld war horses out at the Dublin Airport have finally realised that if you try to compete on price, costs HAVE to drop.

EI board meeting later this evening, which will apparently make changes unilaterally if no basis for agreement reached.

My contacts tell me that 4 weeks per yr of service is the offer to achieve 676 redundancies.

Could be a pivotal day in the history of EI.

Comordha

Would you invest?

FlutterinBantam

As a bit of a punt I might, but nothing I couldn't afford to lose.

diverdriver

It could mean the difference between having an Aer Lingus or closing the book on the history of one of the most well legacy carriers out there. The workers, including my brother know this. Ryanair would step in and replace them in weeks.

I note too that it's crunch day on the other, big issue of PS pay, not unrelated as EI was always a bit of a state entity.

December the 1st 2009 may well be remembered.

FlutterinBantam

Yes it appears that at long last the workforce have realised that this is the end game.

Hopefully they will tell the union warhorses that the game is up and if EI have any chance of survival,then the first step, I say again, the first step, is to get costs under some kind of economic control.

It's time that the unsung heroes get up and tell the motor mouthed militants that they have a voice.

The militants always have the back door ready,some people out there depend on the survival of EI for a job and income.

Don't be afraid to stand up and confront them.

therecklessone

I take it EI will get their way on remuneration for long haul crew?

FlutterinBantam

Are we talking abouts pilots or cabin crew or both.

not familiar with the details.

therecklessone

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Are we talking abouts pilots or cabin crew or both.

not familiar with the details.

I'm not overly familiar with either, but the press briefings seemed to suggest EI management wanted to target pay and allowances for both pilots AND cabin crew. I've also heard similar from staff within the company.

FlutterinBantam

Yes ,my sources tell me that that could be a sticking point.

Possible to get agreement with the rest of the staff but pilots and cabin crew not for turning it seems.

Four weeks per yos capped + statutory would appear to be the offer, far less fa far less than previous.

Current share price of 55.5 could be worth a punt based on the workforce seeing the writing on the wall and a take over of sorts.

cannot see EI surviving as a separate entity.

FlutterinBantam

Appears the pilots were looking for the Company to bankroll their disastrous share buying scheme at the time of the FR takeover bid.

my personal opinion is that when the unions see that they are dealing with a different animal now, and as Bertie is not lurking in the background ,something can be worked out.

Pilots will be the hardest to do business with as they have invested mega bucks into that share buying scenario, and will seek to recover from that.

Best of luck to all concerned as no one wants to see EI sink without trace.


Reality is slowly breaking over Dublin Airport though.

FlutterinBantam

Latest news is that CM is setting up the scene for compulsory redundancies.

Wonder will the unions realise the horse has bolted;)

Mailman

When they talk about selling off surplus aircraft I assume they mean all the A330s.

Lifelike

Whatever happens I hope that Aer Lingus don't go too far down the Ryanair road. It's worth paying that little bit extra for the extra comfort of Aer Lingus.

gaff85

Lifelike wrote: »

Whatever happens I hope that Aer Lingus don't go too far down the Ryanair road. It's worth paying that little bit extra for the extra comfort of Aer Lingus.

I totally agree, however the company had over a billion in cash reserves 12 months ago and this is whittling down daily due to over employment for the size of the fleet.

They should out sources all ground handling at Dublin, cork and Shannon along with all auxiliary services and just concentrate on the flying until such time as they get out of the slump they are presently in.

gaff85

Mailman wrote: »

When they talk about selling off surplus aircraft I assume they mean all the A330s.

I'd say possible some of the older A320's and also the A321's, A couple of the A330's are coming to the end of there lease, however there are two scheduled to arrive from Airbus over the next 18 months, so they may lease these or base them in Belfast/gatwick, where the costs are significantly lower than Dublin.

Dacian

Gaff: EI never had a billion in cash. they had approx E800M after privatisation, they now have E400-500M left. But they did buy two new A330 this year with some (E140M) of that cash. But we still have at anywhere from E160M-E265M cash gone. What happened to the cost saving they got from staff last year? Does that increase the cash burnt?

And the articles in the papers about selling a/c mentioned the term sale and lease back. So I assume this is a way to raise money quickly but still keep the use of the a/c?

Can they start compulsary redundancies while still in talkswith staff? Surely they have have to wait for talks at the labour court to collapse or a strike to do so? Is this just a ploy to force the staff to capitulate?

FlutterinBantam

Meeting of the EI board later today.

They will consider latest cabin crew proposals.

Company seem determined to cut through the bulldust which has unfortunately dogged negotiations with this company over the years.

The time for window dressing and deck chair moving is gone.

For the sake of the many genuine punters out there I hope sanity prevails.

FlutterinBantam

Looks like the company can deal with the cabin crew...


Evan seems to be the last man standing.....might be time to request an altitude reduction to avoid turb:cool:

alpha2zulu

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Looks like the company can deal with the cabin crew...


Evan seems to be the last man standing.....might be time to request an altitude reduction to avoid turb:cool:

Have to say though, my guilty pleasure this week has been reading some of the posts by a certain camel on another forum. Although I keep telling myself hes wrong, biased, just propaganda from the competition etc, some of the points said individual makes are pretty valid.

It's so sad to see extra jobs over the 676 on the line, because although I havent worked for EI myself,chances are if its anyway like other union environmnets I've worked in, its the few old dragons at the top driving the negotiations ship, whilst the new and younger guys just go along with it out of fear of intimidation from their more senior colleagues.

FlutterinBantam

alpha2zulu wrote: »

Have to say though, my guilty pleasure this week has been reading some of the posts by a certain camel on another forum. Although I keep telling myself hes wrong, biased, just propaganda from the competition etc, some of the points said individual makes are pretty valid.

It's so sad to see extra jobs over the 676 on the line, because although I havent worked for EI myself,chances are if its anyway like other union environmnets I've worked in, its the few old dragons at the top driving the negotiations ship, whilst the new and younger guys just go along with it out of fear of intimidation from their more senior colleagues.

he heh... beating my drum buddy.

FlutterinBantam

Good man Leo!!!

duck_77

Given the current state of the nation and the sacrafices made by a lot of other people, can the pilots really feel they are justified in certain amounts claimed in the article (I'm calling it a claim because I have no proof either way)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece

i.e. a 21% Company Contribution to Pension - Is this realistic given that most companies only provide between 5-10%? Some don't provide contributions at all and forces employees to PRSA's/Private Pensions.

Taking simplistic numbers:
590 Pilots @ 52,500 per pilot - EUR30,680,000 PA. Even halving this would be a massive saving.

There are plenty of other items discussed here and I appreciate any employee trying to keep the terms and conditions they were hired under. However, these are changed times, not the Celtic Tiger anymore where you can just expect things (earnings, customers etc) to keep their upward trend.

FlutterinBantam

duck_77 wrote: »

Given the current state of the nation and the sacrafices made by a lot of other people, can the pilots really feel they are justified in certain amounts claimed in the article (I'm calling it a claim because I have no proof either way)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece

i.e. a 21% Company Contribution to Pension - Is this realistic given that most companies only provide between 5-10%? Some don't provide contributions at all and forces employees to PRSA's/Private Pensions.

Taking simplistic numbers:
590 Pilots @ 52,500 per pilot - EUR30,680,000 PA. Even halving this would be a massive saving.

There are plenty of other items discussed here and I appreciate any employee trying to keep the terms and conditions they were hired under. However, these are changed times, not the Celtic Tiger anymore where you can just expect things (earnings, customers etc) to keep their upward trend.

Heh heh that excellent logic doesn't apply to those guys:cool:

bladeruner

alpha2zulu wrote: »

Have to say though, my guilty pleasure this week has been reading some of the posts by a certain camel on another forum. Although I keep telling myself hes wrong, biased, just propaganda from the competition etc, some of the points said individual makes are pretty valid.

.

Yes . I said the same thing after reading some of Stalin's correspondence.

Anyone can make a valid point every now and again .
But could you really take anything that former training captain ( thats who LEO is ) says seriously ?
I couldnt ...

FlutterinBantam

Bottom line, Evan has a fight on his hands, not a roll over and tickle my tummy guy is Herr Muller;)

let's see how they get out of this one.

Highly Salami

Pilots said no agreement with management,
source http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/1209/aerlingus.html

Ryanair allowed to make a third bid for Aer Lingus at the end of January.
Will they make a bid?
Would Michael O'Leary's support for Lisbon II make it more possible this time?

bladeruner

Highly Salami wrote: »

Ryanair allowed to make a third bid for Aer Lingus at the end of January.
Will they make a bid?
Would Michael O'Leary's support for Lisbon II make it more possible this time?

yes & probably yes imho
goverment preference for 2 big airlines policy still blocks it though

Highly Salami

bladeruner wrote: »

yes & probably yes imho
goverment preference for 2 big airlines policy still blocks it though

I thought it was EU competition rules that blocked it last time, the government has only 25% shareholding and so cant block it (I think).
If they can block it, they may decide to let Ryanair takeover if it is clear the company would go bust anyway.

bladeruner

Highly Salami wrote: »

I thought it was EU competition rules that blocked it last time, the government has only 25% shareholding and so cant block it (I think).
If they can block it, they may decide to let Ryanair takeover if it is clear the company would go bust anyway.

it was the EU that blocked it last on competition grounds. not much has changed there, but there is a new EU competition comissioner.It was Neelie croes that blocked it last time.
the goverment do only have 25% but realistically i cant see the EU approving a hostile take over with out a nod from the goverment.
finally ,it isnt clear that the company will go bust so i dont think they could draw that conclusion ,particularly by this january.
O leary is only gagging to have another shot though so expect a bid

DonnieBrasco

after oleary pleased the commissioner with his Lisbon Yes campaign i expect there's no chance the EU blocking this time.

Dacian

Highly Salami wrote: »

..........the government has only 25% shareholding and so cant block it.............they may decide to let Ryanair takeover if it is clear the company would go bust anyway.

EI aren't going to go bust within a month. They still have the cash to last 2 years at current cash burn rate. I read in the papers that they are doing investor briefings in January, oviously trying to find backers to halt any hostile Ryanair bid.

DonnieBrasco wrote: »

after oleary pleased the commissioner with his Lisbon Yes campaign i expect there's no chance the EU blocking this time.

Would be dubious of the EU being so indiscreet. There are a lot of people watching and the media drew attention to Micks Yes to Lisbon roadshow(airshow?)

Just listened to the RTE clip of the Aer Lingus pilot being interviewed. He has a point....if Aer Lingus wanted 30M savings and they offered 33M annually..........surely the company should want to take the deal. Am sure there is more to it than those simple totals,but ti sounds good. He also stated that the pilots would look after the deficit in their pension fund, that was the funny point mooted previously,it seemed very optimistic,that the company should look after that gap.

Am I being too simplistic?

Highly Salami

The finance director, Sean Coyle, has resigned. He joined Aer Lingus from Ryanair. Wonder if this will have any affect on IALPA?

FlutterinBantam

Will it fcuk!!!

This kind of seismic change doesn't happen without a lot of background noise.

Aer Lingus in deep shít.... no one wants to touch them... spinning rapidly.....

FlutterinBantam

Very bad outlook here, senior executives arriving and departing like Dublin Bus.

Obviously the warhorses and the malcontents still haven't seen reality.

They will drag down good people unless sanity prevails.

End of Jan........... watch is space.:cool:

blade912

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6815133.ece

no wonder aerlingus costs a very high when 66 pilots get paid 20 million and that doesn't include 160 day allowance and other expenses. i know of one pilot who spent 7 months out of work (holiday) with full pay waiting for training on a new air craft.

Dacian

blade912 wrote: »

no wonder aerlingus costs a very high when 66 pilots get paid 20 million ..............one pilot who spent 7 months out of work (holiday) with full pay waiting for training on a new air craft.

Well by letting the top guys go that saves E20M straight away. Then cap the existing salaries at less than what those 66 guys were earning . And the pilots said they will take a 10% pay decrease. And why or why would you have a guy not working for that long.
They must be overstaffed by a huge amount. The did say there would be a 10-12% drop in numbers, wonder is that off the top? (as these seem to cost the most)


On a slightly different note: was talking to a couple of EI mates 2 months ago. They tell me that article is quite misleading. Apparently the figures mentioned are exaggerated.

FlutterinBantam

Ei now looking for 1065 redundancies around 550 Grnd Ops areas 360 cabin staff and the rest from various sections.

Pilots well short of the mark per EI Mgmnt.... fasten seat belts

bladeruner

blade912 wrote: »

no wonder aerlingus costs a very high when 66 pilots get paid 20 million and that doesn't include 160 day allowance and other expenses. i know of one pilot who spent 7 months out of work (holiday) with full pay waiting for training on a new air craft.

Was that pilot that had 7 months off an Aer Lingus pilot ?
I doubt it ....

I know a pilot for ANA cargo that had nearly a year off on full pay while waiting for his 747-400 sim. (stuff like this never happens to me ! )
Aviation is not like any other industry.

I'd like to say dont believe everything you read in the newspapers but in this case its more like dont believe anything you read in the newspapers because the information/spin is being fed to ignorant journos with no knowledge of aviation , whos only intent is to sensationalise the story .
(i stopped believing articles about Ryanair years ago)


Flutterin, you seem to be positively salivating about the possibility of Aer Lingus going under...its rather unbecoming.

FlutterinBantam

bladeruner wrote: »

Was that pilot that had 7 months off an Aer Lingus pilot ?
I doubt it ....

I know a pilot for ANA cargo that had nearly a year off on full pay while waiting for his 747-400 sim. (stuff like this never happens to me ! )
Aviation is not like any other industry.

I'd like to say dont believe everything you read in the newspapers but in this case its more like dont believe anything you read in the newspapers because the information/spin is being fed to ignorant journos with no knowledge of aviation , whos only intent is to sensationalise the story .
(i stopped believing articles about Ryanair years ago)


Flutterin, you seem to be positively salivating about the possibility of Aer Lingus going under...its rather unbecoming.

For someone with 28 posts I would say it is even more unbecoming of you to critisise a long standing member who always has said he wishes Aer Lingus well.

I put it on record now that I want to see Aer Lingus thrive and survive.

However several experiences of travel disruption and potential travel disruption have perhaps made me along with a great number of air travellers view the posturing and sabre rattling that goes on out there so regularly with a less than favourable eye.

Please forgive me for that.

blade912

bladeruner wrote: »

Was that pilot that had 7 months off an Aer Lingus pilot ?
I doubt it ....
.

If he wasn't working for aer lingus then there is something wrong with aer lingus security as he was flying their planes.

skybus

For someone with 28 posts I would say it is even more unbecoming of you to critisise a long standing member who always has said he wishes Aer Lingus well.

Quite a strange statement from somone posting 17 times out a total of 40 posts with a sense of enjoyment at the current situation in each.

Glasshouses and stones comes to mind.

On another note I see talks are due to begin again.

FlutterinBantam

skybus wrote: »

Quite a strange statement from somone posting 17 times out a total of 40 posts with a sense of enjoyment at the current situation in each.

Glasshouses and stones comes to mind.

On another note I see talks are due to begin again.

You may have not noticed sir,that I did start the thread.

If there are any items I have posted that are not true or made up please tell me.?

Quite frankly sir, your attitude reflects badly, much like those other people who rather than confront issues and take them head on, prefer to snipe at a poster who is telling it as it is.

Perhaps there is a vested interest in hiding the truth and the facts sir.

If you have issues spit them out, I'm not into vague or perceived attitudes to be quite honest.

pclancy

Keep on topic please.

FlutterinBantam

Looks like Mr Mulvey brought in as an Independent arbitrator to parlay with the pilots.

Seems like all other parties have signed up.

Apparently the financial man and Christophe differed on the future direction of the company,so I guess only one outcome there.

Interesting to see how bellicose Evan is without the safety net.?

Different times indeed.

Dacian

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Apparently the financial man and Christophe differed on the future direction of the company,so I guess only one outcome there.

Pretty obvious given his background that Sean Coyle would want Aer Lingus to follow the Ryanair ultra low cost business model. Personally think theres only room for Ryanair in that market.

Must mean Mueller wants Aer Lingus to be of a slightly 'higher standard' than Ryanair.......as in keep the difference in service/frills. That way we have an actuall choice in ourtravels rather than just green or blue plane. Wonder will we see the return of the business class on European flights?

FlutterinBantam

Dacian wrote: »

Pretty obvious given his background that Sean Coyle would want Aer Lingus to follow the Ryanair ultra low cost business model. Personally think theres only room for Ryanair in that market.

Would agree with that.

Don't really see a business class returning.

bladeruner

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Apparently the financial man and Christophe differed on the future direction of the company,so I guess only one outcome there.

I believe there was a disagreement , I dont think it was over the direction the airline was taking.
Since when do CFO tell CEO's how to run their companies? and would a CFO resign over it ? with 20 odd days notice ? just before christmas ? with no new job to go to ?

Coyle was instigating industrial unrest .



I would be delighted to see Aer Lingus wear its differences on its sleeve instead of trying to be something its not and at heart does not want to be.

I just hope the Irish and Uk public want the same thing.
I think the flexi ticket offering is all a business man wants in this day and age and that can now be purchased .
Dont know how big the market for european business class travel would be outside london , Brussels and frankfurt.

Dacian

The flexi ticket is a good idea. Didn't EI keep business on a few routes after they had introduced the shop on board service? Am sure they is a market there if they wanted to tap it.

Bmi are shrinking,I would like to think that IF their London services stopped Aer Lingus would be flexible enough to introduce a business class offering to hover up that market before anyone else did.
Aer Lingus need to see that any non-LCC flying out of Dublin are taking potential passengers from them. Granted it may be a small amount but even a Eur10 return per flight is profit if you can get it.

Dacian

bladeruner wrote: »

I believe there was a disagreement , I dont think it was over the direction the airline was taking..............Coyle was instigating industrial unrest.

Can you explain a bit further....

Do you mean that Coyle was deliberatly provoking the staff towards stoppages/strikes? Or that Coyle himself was working against the CEO and ultimately Aer Lingus?

FlutterinBantam

Arbitration talk with the pilots concluded yesterday.... conclusions next week apparently.

Let me guess....won't include any tailwinds bailout for sure;)

FlutterinBantam

My sources tell me that CM is instigating a new management structure eff Jan 11 for EI and that Andrew Mcfarlane is interim CFO.

basically stripping three layers of the top mgmnt.... will be interesting to see how that pans out

Looks like reporting to Muller will be

Chief ops Off
Chief Fin Off
Chief Comm. off

HR

Corporate affairs.


Will be interesting to say the least!!;)