John Gormly to stop building in flood plains

seclachi

I hear tonight on Matt Cooper that John Gormley is to use his ministerial powers to stop building in flood plains. The question is, doesn't county councils planning board do this anyway ? I guess some would argue they are not after the recent flooding. Then again, should they stop all planning in certain just because those areas flood twice a century ?

That being said though, they made some serious blunders in Cork, they built the council library in a basement, just across the road from the lee fields which used to flood nearly every year ! They also allowed numerous underground car parks, including the kingsly which was just stupid. Its hard to believe with the amount of time planning takes to get they dont actually look into it.

On topic though, I think this is just another token gesture from John Gormley, whats he going to do, block construction in every city based on a river (which is pretty much all of them in Ireland). Go through every plan in the country like superman and determine if there is a risk ?

oh well

have to say I agree with Gormley and hope that flood plains are never again built upon. There is still plenty of land avail in cities and towns across the country not to use this land. We are currently fighting a planning application for housing on a flood plain area adjacent to our estate. This area is relatively close to river, and is a recognised flood plain area. However, to quote the planning office, "The council don't see a problem with the building getting permission." Surely now is the time to call a halt to the situation of granting permission - even on the basis that it floods every 10, 20 or 30 years. The flooding events in recent years are coming much closer together and in areas which never even historically flooded previously. If all avail land is built upon, the natural soakage cannot take place.

There's a great photo in todays Indo of a parcel of 70acres of land for sale - suitable for development - the area is completely flooded. Say planning was granted for that site and numerous houses were built on it, guess what will to happen to the land in future years when we again get these rains.

Sand

He doesnt have to go through every planning application: He simply has to identify the flood plains in Ireland. Then he just bans applications there in the absence of satisfactory flood defences being introduced. This seems reasonable, it protects schmucks who dont know the that house they bought was built on field that is usually submerged for a month of the year and it helps the state limit the need for emergency services - prevention being better than cure.

County planning boards have a very poor track record. Theyre are literally housing estates out in the middle of *nowhere*, with no services whatsoever. And when I say nowhere, I dont mean Longford, I mean many miles outside of Longford down country backlanes there are housing estates. Theres a common myth that this is just a run of bad luck, its not - it lousy planning, flood defences being ignored for years and bad luck.

enry

]Retrospective never preemptive. Talk and talk and talk.. We have to move beyond the blame game, we have to look at fixing problems but by god we don’t have to hold anyone accountable. Bertie and Charlie, one had an island the other was a tax cheat and no one cares nobody is ever held accountable for anything in this country.
I hate this country and if I had the money I’d be gone. I wish the ordinary people in this country would shout up. Simply because we as a people have no standards and allow people in public office to do what they want. What the f### are we giving out about when it all goes wrong weather that is in relation to floods, crime or the economy when we are complicit with this corruption and incompetence through our inaction.
sorry needed to get that out i know its off point but i was just watching pat kenny and i'm at a loss why we cant manage anything in this country not even our rivers

Victor

Its quite simple, if the place has flooded more than once, that place needs to be examined in detail. If it regularly floors, then no building except with exceptional design, i.e. on stilts or similar.

Taxipete29

Horse, stable door, bolted.

The damage has been done. Too little too late.

baalthor

If only there was a website .. oh... there is !

View

seclachi wrote: »

I hear tonight on Matt Cooper that John Gormley is to use his ministerial powers to stop building in flood plains. The question is, doesn't county councils planning board do this anyway ? I guess some would argue they are not after the recent flooding. Then again, should they stop all planning in certain just because those areas flood twice a century ?

I presume this is prompted by the case in Ballinasloe where the local council granted permission to build in a flood plain even after if it was pointed out to them in advance that the area flooded on a regular basis.

brianthebard

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Horse, stable door, bolted.

The damage has been done. Too little too late.

You're right no one will ever build houses again.

MysticalRain

Wouldn't the developers be legally liable for building on flood plains? I'd love to see the lawyers cut the bollox off the developers on this one.

Eutow

MysticalRain wrote: »

Wouldn't the developers be legally liable for building on flood plains? I'd love to see the lawyers cut the bollox off the developers on this one.

You've forgotten you live in Ireland. Maybe if we lived in a country were people who do wrong are held accountable. Even better if it is a proactive country.

starbelgrade

MysticalRain wrote: »

Wouldn't the developers be legally liable for building on flood plains? I'd love to see the lawyers cut the bollox off the developers on this one.

We'd all love to see that for many reasons, but put simply, the planning & building regulations in Ireland are substandard. If you apply for planning permission for a developement of any size - from a one-off house to an apartment complex, you need to provide details of the site history. But by details, that means, whatever details you wish to submit...

Under current planning guidelines, you are asked in the application..

"Has the site in question ever, to your knowledge, been flooded?

Yes [ ] No [ ]

If yes, please give details e.g. year, extent."

The key phrase is, "to your knowledge". No-one ever ticks the "yes" box & no questions are ever asked.

This is not just a problem with bad planning & planning is only partly in control of the planners - the real power behind it lies in the local Councils & their elected councillers.. basically the politicians & thus, the business interests that they are forever in bed with when it comes to zoning lands.

nesf

Eutow wrote: »

You've forgotten you live in Ireland. Maybe if we lived in a country were people who do wrong are held accountable. Even better if it is a proactive country.

Christ no, the focus should be on the cause not the symptom! Developers will build (or try to) anywhere that gets zoned. It's this zoning that needs to be stopped. If an area isn't zoned for development then there's no planning phase for stuff to "fall through the gaps".

Blaming developers for this is a bit like blaming a dog for eating meat after you locked it into a butchers for a few hours. The gatekeepers here are the Councillors who zone the land in the first place. If you can stop them from zoning in idiotic places then we won't have estates in idiotic places. These places existence is a failure of local government not a failure of developers developing where they're told they can (though I think we can blame the latter with many, many other things).

ballsymchugh

Sand wrote: »

He doesnt have to go through every planning application: He simply has to identify the flood plains in Ireland. Then he just bans applications there in the absence of satisfactory flood defences being introduced. This seems reasonable, it protects schmucks who dont know the that house they bought was built on field that is usually submerged for a month of the year and it helps the state limit the need for emergency services - prevention being better than cure.

County planning boards have a very poor track record. Theyre are literally housing estates out in the middle of *nowhere*, with no services whatsoever. And when I say nowhere, I dont mean Longford, I mean many miles outside of Longford down country backlanes there are housing estates. Theres a common myth that this is just a run of bad luck, its not - it lousy planning, flood defences being ignored for years and bad luck.

there's a patch of land either side of the n63 on the western side of longford town that flooded every single time there was a decent shower of rain for as long as i can remember. in the past 6 or 7 years it's been slowly developed into a housing/industrial zone. and hey presto the road was totally blocked last week.
i know that in the past 10 or 15 years there's been a shift towards planners from civil engineers in councils. does anyone think that there's a link there? would civil engineers be more qualified or better to staff the offices again?

Diarmuid

nesf wrote: »

These places existence is a failure of local government not a failure of developers developing where they're told they can

Exactly, I know developers are the whipping boys at the moment but it's pretty clear most of the blame lies with local councils, which the same local communities elected. doh!

imstrongerthanu

seclachi wrote: »

I hear tonight on Matt Cooper that John Gormley is to use his ministerial powers to stop building in flood plains. The question is, doesn't county councils planning board do this anyway ? I guess some would argue they are not after the recent flooding. Then again, should they stop all planning in certain just because those areas flood twice a century ?

That being said though, they made some serious blunders in Cork, they built the council library in a basement, just across the road from the lee fields which used to flood nearly every year ! They also allowed numerous underground car parks, including the kingsly which was just stupid. Its hard to believe with the amount of time planning takes to get they dont actually look into it.

On topic though, I think this is just another token gesture from John Gormley, whats he going to do, block construction in every city based on a river (which is pretty much all of them in Ireland). Go through every plan in the country like superman and determine if there is a risk ?

Thank god sense is talking sense about this issue.
When you look at google all you get is this.

Nobel expert: Global warming causing Irish floods, climate change........

Ireland's massive flooding has almost certainly been the result of climate change, says Nobel Prize-winner and Ireland's leading climatologist, Prof. John Sweeney.

No John it has not;it's been the result of a building boom and lack of maintenance to our rivers.....

Fair play to John Gormley in this instance.

ednwireland

didnt he stop rezoning in monaghan a couple of years ago Already, one thing i cant fault him for

"Hundreds of land re-zonings in Co Monaghan have been overturned by the Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, as a result of his rejection of the County Development Plan.

Against advice from local officials and the Department, Monaghan County Councillors had approved the plan, which could have allowed enough houses be built to accommodate a near 200% increase in population."

one of them was definitely on a flood plain (frontline last night )

article 22 july 2007

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0722/monaghan.html

unfortunately the previous 10 years werent down to him

sinnfein complain !
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/9587

edanto

I'd have to say fair play to him for being proactive and moving to improve planning and development as soon as he got into office.

But last night on Frontline, he didn't seem to care enough about the people that had flooded property. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but he didn't seem to look as sincere and concerned about their problems as I thought he would.

Then again, maybe it was his first time on TV for an hour and he had some coaching and came across more relaxed than he actually was.

The one question that I really wanted to hear an answer to was about liability. If someone knowlingly grants permission for a dwelling on a flood plain, are they liable? If the developer doesn't do enough research about the flood history, are they liable? Or is it all the fault of the homeowner?

Also, he really has to do more to get the farmers on side. There's such an obvious natural alliance between farmers and the minister for the environment, it's a right shame that they're at his throat so much. He should ask them to come in for meetings and learn from what they know.

irish_bob

ednwireland wrote: »

didnt he stop rezoning in monaghan a couple of years ago Already, one thing i cant fault him for

"Hundreds of land re-zonings in Co Monaghan have been overturned by the Minister for the Environment, John Gormley, as a result of his rejection of the County Development Plan.

Against advice from local officials and the Department, Monaghan County Councillors had approved the plan, which could have allowed enough houses be built to accommodate a near 200% increase in population."

one of them was definitely on a flood plain (frontline last night )

article 22 july 2007

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0722/monaghan.html

unfortunately the previous 10 years werent down to him

sinnfein complain !
http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/9587

monaghan people are different when it comes to ethics or any kind of responsible descision making which effects others

RedPlanet

We may have found a fault in our system of governance.
Local councils making planning decisions.

But then if not Local Councils, whom?
Centralizing these decisions may not necessarily produce better results.
But certainly putting manners on these councils via regulation is something we can do.

I also think that it would be prefferable if the local council has to absorb the damages their decisions create. Rather then we taxpayers in dublin coming to their rescue.

It's always a very low turnout for elections to councils and maybe people need a little fire under their arses to get more involved.

Zombrex

Sand wrote: »

County planning boards have a very poor track record.
...
Theres a common myth that this is just a run of bad luck, its not - it lousy planning, flood defences being ignored for years and bad luck.

+1

Nail on the head Sand

People are blaming "global warming" for this the same way they are blaming the global economy for the Irish recession, ignoring that most of the problem here is our own lousy running of this country, not external influences.

LookBehindYou

If they looked at the Ordnance survey maps dating from approx 1850 onwards, those large scale maps which cover the whole country, show places which are liable to flooding, and show swampy areas also.

MysticalRain

Eutow wrote: »

You've forgotten you live in Ireland. Maybe if we lived in a country were people who do wrong are held accountable. Even better if it is a proactive country.

Indeed. Silly me for even asking the question. I should really know better at this point.

Rujib1

Seems to me that the class dunces have all gotten cushy jobs in banking and county council planning offices over the past 20 years.
Now we are hearing green party bull****e about building on flood plains.
Those of us who live and work on the land find it almost impossible to get planning permission for our next generation, and IF by chance we do, the first thing we have to do, is dig a great big ugly hole and plant the house down on it. Perish the thought that some organic, veggie eating, green do gooder might have their vista of the country skyline broken by a house built up out of the water, when they take their children for a drive ... sorry I mean cycle on a Sunday afternoon.
This country is in bad need of a good old fashioned revolution. Peaceful but effective. Get rid of the politicans, co councillors, greens, do gooders, an taicsce, planners, bankers. Make them all live on the houses built in the flood plains, and the mechanically excavated holes in the countryside where they have tried to force us culchies to live:P:P When the flood rises, I bet they will all manage to crawl to higher ground somewhere, and realise the folly of their past ways. They can then be given redemption.

Scofflaw

Rujib1 wrote: »

Seems to me that the class dunces have all gotten cushy jobs in banking and county council planning offices over the past 20 years.
Now we are hearing green party bull****e about building on flood plains.
Those of us who live and work on the land find it almost impossible to get planning permission for our next generation, and IF by chance we do, the first thing we have to do, is dig a great big ugly hole and plant the house down on it. Perish the thought that some organic, veggie eating, green do gooder might have their vista of the country skyline broken by a house built up out of the water, when they take their children for a drive ... sorry I mean cycle on a Sunday afternoon.
This country is in bad need of a good old fashioned revolution. Peaceful but effective. Get rid of the politicans, co councillors, greens, do gooders, an taicsce, planners, bankers. Make them all live on the houses built in the flood plains, and the mechanically excavated holes in the countryside where they have tried to force us culchies to live:P:P When the flood rises, I bet they will all manage to crawl to higher ground somewhere, and realise the folly of their past ways. They can then be given redemption.

So you're complaining that you've been 'forced' to live on flood plains, and now you're being 'forced' not to.

Poor you.

Scofflaw

Eutow

Diarmuid wrote: »

Exactly, I know developers are the whipping boys at the moment but it's pretty clear most of the blame lies with local councils, which the same local communities elected. doh!

What's the betting that these same communities vote for the same councillors at the next election?......

seclachi

To me it feels a bit like an insult John Gormley standing up and telling us he`ll basicly do his job. Surely one of the key objectives of planning permission is to build it in a safe and secure site. Why should get get a pat on the back for telling people to do what they were meant to do.

You maybe able to tell by now I`m somebody with a chip on my sholder with the planners after being around the block with them a few times. But I guess if your a developer and your offering a big contribution fund towards the council little things like building in a possible flood plain can be overlooked (never mind the chronic lack of services many developments have).

ednwireland

one of the best ways to figure this out is to look at the 6 inch maps from years ago and if a house is built on somewhere that says liable to flooding dont buy it (that doesnt work were defences have been built pushing flooding into other areas ) - but its a good starting point

jmayo

ballsymchugh wrote: »

there's a patch of land either side of the n63 on the western side of longford town that flooded every single time there was a decent shower of rain for as long as i can remember. in the past 6 or 7 years it's been slowly developed into a housing/industrial zone. and hey presto the road was totally blocked last week.
i know that in the past 10 or 15 years there's been a shift towards planners from civil engineers in councils. does anyone think that there's a link there? would civil engineers be more qualified or better to staff the offices again?

At least an engineer should know about water tables etc.

Is the area you are talking about above the site of the Longford Town sponsors big warehouse ?
I remember bad flooding around christmas/new year about 10 years ago.
The old road to Strokestown that went through the bog was flooded and that area around the bridge coming out of Longofrd was like a lake.
Was very surprising that it was granted planning permission for huge warehouse.

Also look where new shopping centre is on the way into Carrick On Shannon.
That are always had flooding aroudn it from the Shannon.
Then they build loads of apartments/townhouses (Section 23 ??) opposite the Marina behind Supermacs on the Sligo road and that area laways flooded.

The list just goes on and on.
It was down to greed of local county councils and government. :mad:

Rujib1 wrote: »

...
Now we are hearing green party bull****e about building on flood plains.
Those of us who live and work on the land find it almost impossible to get planning permission for our next generation, and IF by chance we do, the first thing we have to do, is dig a great big ugly hole and plant the house down on it. Perish the thought that some organic, veggie eating, green do gooder might have their vista of the country skyline broken by a house built up out of the water, when they take their children for a drive ... sorry I mean cycle on a Sunday afternoon.
...

Scofflaw I think his gripe is that planning for one off rural houses for children of farmers was often refused on the premise that the house was being built on too prominent a height, thus was too visible and should be both lower in stature and site.
Thus it should not stand out in the countryside.
Thus houses were often built in holes to mask their outline.

Of course it would have helped if they weren't trying to build Southfork lookalikes in the first place, but that is another story. :rolleyes:

It was noticable that some awful looking things situated on top of hills viewable for miles were granted planning, whereas other houses much smalelr and in lower ground were not granted permission.

Maybe Wiggins Teape had something to say on the matter ? :rolleyes:

Executive Steve

A friend of a friend is a hydrological engineer in the midlands area, not a million miles away from Clara in fact, and he told me a story over a pint about the pressure from on high he was subjected to to sign off on plans by a relative of a Well Known And Rather Prominent Local Political Figure to build an apartment complex in the middle of a flood plain.

He took great pleasure in saying "told you so" when the inevitable inevitably happened.

But yes, hopefully Mr Gormley will make absolutely sure that no horse ever gets out through THAT stable door again...

AlekSmart

This country is in bad need of a good old fashioned revolution. Peaceful but effective. Get rid of the politicans, co councillors, greens, do gooders, an taicsce, planners, bankers. Make them all live on the houses built in the flood plains, and the mechanically excavated holes in the countryside where they have tried to force us culchies to live When the flood rises, I bet they will all manage to crawl to higher ground somewhere, and realise the folly of their past ways. They can then be given redemption.

As good a policy statement as anything I have heard in the past ten days and I heartily comment it to the (Boards) House !

+100%

Scofflaw

Good old Fianna Fáil:

Responding to questions from Green Party leader Trevor Sargent, Mr Ahern did not give any guarantee, though, of increased funding for flooding projects.

According to Mr Sargent, a capital investment programme for flood prevention needed to be introduced. “We are not talking about humanitarian aid. We are talking about Cork City seeking funds for the last 20 years for quay walls [...]

Accusing Government of having no strategy on flood plains, Mr Sargent said the advice of planners had been ignored and areas prone to flooding built upon.

However, Mr Ahern rejected the argument and said water plains were covered in the last major Planning Act. “Regarding building on plains, since the population has risen by one million since 1973, that extra million people must live somewhere.”

People - they have to live somewhere, apparently. I'm only thankful we don't have any volcanoes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

People - they have to live somewhere, apparently. I'm only thankful we don't have any volcanoes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Or earthquake zones.

starbelgrade

Diarmuid wrote: »

Exactly, I know developers are the whipping boys at the moment but it's pretty clear most of the blame lies with local councils, which the same local communities elected. doh!

This i snot strictly true - I know of quite a few developers who knowingly built on flood planes & of councellors who put pressure on planners to allow the developements to be granted permission. I saw one such development on the news last night, under 3 foot of water.

Every site should undergo a flood plane assessment - this is being recommended in the new planning laws, but is not being made mandatory.

Rowley Birkin QC

The sooner the structure of Planning Authorities in this country is reformed and scaled back the better. There is no need for Clonmel, Fermoy and Mallow to have their own authorities. Lands vulnerable to flooding should be planned at a regional level, taking local politics as far away from planning decisions as possible.

ballsymchugh

jmayo wrote: »

At least an engineer should know about water tables etc.

Is the area you are talking about above the site of the Longford Town sponsors big warehouse ?
I remember bad flooding around christmas/new year about 10 years ago.
The old road to Strokestown that went through the bog was flooded and that area around the bridge coming out of Longofrd was like a lake.
Was very surprising that it was granted planning permission for huge warehouse


Scofflaw I think his gripe is that planning for one off rural houses for children of farmers was often refused on the premise that the house was being built on too prominent a height, thus was too visible and should be both lower in stature and site.
Thus it should not stand out in the countryside.
Thus houses were often built in holes to mask their outline.

Of course it would have helped if they weren't trying to build Southfork lookalikes in the first place, but that is another story. :rolleyes:

It was noticable that some awful looking things situated on top of hills viewable for miles were granted planning, whereas other houses much smalelr and in lower ground were not granted permission.
:rolleyes:

that's the very one. they got permission for a serious amount of houses there too, but the last time i saw them there wasn't too much built there.

but like i said before, i'd prefer county councils planning departments to be staffed with more civil engineers that have done some planning courses than planners only.
councillors don't seem to be too accountable for rezoning mistakes, taking the councillor from monaghan that was on frontline last night as case and point. he was all about how people were given permission to build on flood planes but when he was shown a video of an interview he did a few years ago he had to backtrack and say it'd be fine to build houses on stilts.

can someone explain.... sometimes when developments are brought up at council meetings and debated, if the councillors are happy with it do they approve planning permission, and send it to the county manager to be rubber stamped, or can the manager still refuse it and risk the backlash of the councillors?

starbelgrade

ballsymchugh wrote: »

can someone explain.... sometimes when developments are brought up at council meetings and debated, if the councillors are happy with it do they approve planning permission, and send it to the county manager to be rubber stamped, or can the manager still refuse it and risk the backlash of the councillors?

The final decision lies with the planners. However, all grants for planning can be subject to appeal by An Bord Pleanala.

Essexboy

ballsymchugh wrote: »

that's the very one. they got permission for a serious amount of houses there too, but the last time i saw them there wasn't too much built there.

but like i said before, i'd prefer county councils planning departments to be staffed with more civil engineers that have done some planning courses than planners only.
councillors don't seem to be too accountable for rezoning mistakes, taking the councillor from monaghan that was on frontline last night as case and point. he was all about how people were given permission to build on flood planes but when he was shown a video of an interview he did a few years ago he had to backtrack and say it'd be fine to build houses on stilts.

can someone explain.... sometimes when developments are brought up at council meetings and debated, if the councillors are happy with it do they approve planning permission, and send it to the county manager to be rubber stamped, or can the manager still refuse it and risk the backlash of the councillors?

rezoning is a matter for councillors only. The county manager has no say in the matter and must accept what the councillors vote for.
See http://www.sligochampion.ie/news/plans-to-be-lodged-soon-for-carraroe-private-hospital-1934167.html as an exaample.

starbelgrade

Essexboy wrote: »

rezoning is a matter for councillors only. The county manager has no say in the matter and must accept what the councillors vote for.
See http://www.sligochampion.ie/news/plans-to-be-lodged-soon-for-carraroe-private-hospital-1934167.html as an exaample.

Zoning is a different issue - an area may be zoned for commercial & retail, for example, but it's not guranteed that any application for a commercial or retail development within the zoned area will be granted permission by the planners.

The real problem with the granting of permissions to developers to build on flood planes is not that parts of some zoned areas are unsuitable for some types of construction, nor is it that planners grant permission in some cases to build on these areas, but that the planning laws & guidelines do not take into account the need for real flood plane assessment and take no account at all of storm water defences.

Add to that the mismanagement of our waterways & it was always a timebomb waiting to happen.

Essexboy

starbelgrade wrote: »

Zoning is a different issue - an area may be zoned for commercial & retail, for example, but it's not guranteed that any application for a commercial or retail development within the zoned area will be granted permission by the planners.

The real problem with the granting of permissions to developers to build on flood planes is not that parts of some zoned areas are unsuitable for some types of construction, nor is it that planners grant permission in some cases to build on these areas, but that the planning laws & guidelines do not take into account the need for real flood plane assessment and take no account at all of storm water defences.

Add to that the mismanagement of our waterways & it was always a timebomb waiting to happen.

Rezoning is a first step to getting planning permission. If the politicians and council officials collaborate permission is guaranteed.
Look at http://www.independent.ie/national-news/councils-to-build-on-flood-plain-1468918.html
where the officials, chamber of commerce and a majority of councillors decided that it is OK to build on a flood plain. All locals together!
As an aside

• Much of the rezoned land was owned by a sitting councillor.
• The council chairman was Barry Cowen, Biffo's brother.
• A vocal supporter of rezoning was Ger Killally, now being pursued for millions by a variety of lenders and former partners.