Diarmuid Doyle in the Tribune re Public Sector

Liam79

Diarmuid Doyle - "The journey of the public service employee from unambitious, unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an entire economy has been a sight to behold"


As RTÉ viewers and readers of Irish newspapers will know by now, public sector workers are the most evil, self-centred, lazy, opportunistic, stupid, dishonest and vile group of individuals Ireland has ever known. Their thievery knows no bounds and goes back generations. DNA tests on a nurse from Enfield recently discovered she is a direct descendant of a family of cruel kitten killers from the 1890s. Investigations into the background of a teacher in Kilkenny revealed that wealthy ancestors on his mother's side used to stand outside the homes of starving people during the famine, munching potato salad sandwiches and feeding the leftovers to the local bird population. What else would he do with that kind of history but look for a job in the public service?


But of all the insults perpetrated by public sector workers over the years, perhaps the worst was their mass Christmas shopping outing to Newry last Tuesday. Luckily, the media was around to uncover the crime. The day of action, RTÉ confidently reported at lunchtime on Tuesday, had led to an influx of public sector workers who had abandoned their picket lines in search of cheap whiskey (they didn't quite put it like that, but it was clear what they were getting at). It was an arresting image, no doubt, and one backed up by no evidence whatsoever. I tuned into the Six-One News later in the day to see if they were able to put any more meat on their story. Sadly, they were not, although that didn't stop them pushing an angle that was too attractive to abandon.


Three witnesses to the madness were interviewed. An Englishman who didn't work in the public sector thought the busier-than-usual shopping day might have had something to do with the work stoppage, although he didn't seem sure. A shopper from Dublin who didn't work in the public sector thought a fellow over there might be in the public sector, although there was no interview with the fellow over there to confirm that suspicion. An elderly woman who didn't work in the public sector was sure she was surrounded by public sector workers, their horns and pointy tails having completely given the game away.


RTÉ at least acknowledged that many of the people who arrived in Newry on Tuesday might have been the parents of children who had the day off (which, of course, was always the most likely explanation for the long queue of southern-registered cars meandering towards the town). Nevertheless the impression created, and amplified in the following day's newspapers, was that thousands of strikers had used their day off – taken ostensibly on a point of principle – as an excuse to boost the economy of a foreign nation. The unstated analysis: what would you expect from the people who ruined the country?


The journey of the public service employee from unambitious, unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an entire economy has been a sight to behold. During the boom years, nobody worth their salt would be caught dead working in the public service. Our thrusting, creative, adaptable workforce demanded the freedom and excitement offered by the private sector to express themselves (whatever that means), win attention, secure promotion and earn lots of money. By contrast, the public sector was looked on as a kind of fusty fallback position for Denis and Denise Dullknickers, where they could toil away unrecognised by anybody. Judged by the rules and morality of the Celtic Badger, these people were unambitious, and therefore slightly weird, losers.


Now that the boom is over – wrecked mainly, let us not forget, by the private sector – the public service has been reimagined as the modern equivalent of Nero's Rome. Denis and Denise have been tried and found guilty of excesses likely to lead to a visit by the International Monetary Fund. A country's future depends on them being chastised for reckless behaviour they were never aware of.


To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice.

frman

Is this just another rant ?

spadder

The simple fact is that we can't afford to continue to pay them all. It's nothing personal.

achtungbarry

Wow, somebody in the media who doesn't hate us. Faints/

I've said this before but here goes.

I am a public sector worker. I earn 26.5k.

Did I want to be on strike? No. I would have much preferred to do a days work and get paid.

I agree that there needs to major reforms in the public sector. Pay at the top end needs to be drastically cut. Who really needs more than 100k a year?

Public servants should be more sackable. I know there are people in the PS that give us me a bad name. They should be sent packing.

I have taken a pay cut and I am prepared to to take another one. I don't mind doing my bit.

As for all those who keep having a go at people who work in the public sector, I will say this:

I make no apologies for making a sensible decision several years ago to seek employment in the public sector. I did this at the height of the boom when there was a killing to be made in the private sector (of course this is no longer the case). My friends thought I was mad(I dropped 11k in salary). At this time people looked down on the public sector as being not good enough for them.

(Btw I was accused of lying about this by some of the more rabid public service bashers but I don't really care. I know what I experienced.)

A few years ago in my department, we advertised job openings with the view to forming a panel. We received 10 applications. 5 turned up for interview and 1 accepted a job. As I said, people looked down their noses at the public sector at this time.

(Weirdly, none of the bashers commented on this.)

I made a decision, I made a choice. I chose the (relatively) safe job with the secure pension over short term again. I made a long term decision. I made this decision with the thought that the good times would not last forever. I am glad I made that decision.

Now that things have gone belly up, I make no apologies for that decision. I am sick of being demonized because I work in the public sector.

To those who constantly knock people like me, why didn't you apply for a job in the public sector when times were good if it is so great?

I know and appreciate that I am lucky to have a job in these hard times. That's why I am prepared to do my bit and more again. I also know I made my own luck.

Yes, I agree we need major reform and yes I am prepared to take another cut but I will not apologise for making a sensible decision all those years ago.

Diarmuid

achtungbarry wrote: »

I am a public sector worker. I earn 26.5k.

anecdote vs data

achtungbarry wrote: »

Who really needs more than 100k a year?

The people who are going to risk their money in an effort to create/expand their business. Do you think someone who has €100 left over after paying their bills each month are going to be risking €1000's to hire another sales person/engineer etc.?

achtungbarry wrote: »

I made a decision, I made a choice. I chose the (relatively) safe job with the secure pension over short term again. I made a long term decision. I made this decision with the thought that the good times would not last forever. I am glad I made that decision.

Unfortunately for you, you don't live in some isolated bubble, if the private sector goes pop, so does the money to pay you.

P. Breathnach

spadder wrote: »

The simple fact is that we can't afford to continue to pay them all. It's nothing personal.

The point in Doyle's piece is that it is being made into something personal. And when you read in this forum, you will find there are people here who make it personal.

Liam79

To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice


well said old chap

gurramok

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The point in Doyle's piece is that it is being made into something personal. And when you read in this forum, you will find there are people here who make it personal.

Examples?

ednwireland

achtungbarry wrote: »

I agree that there needs to major reforms in the public sector. Pay at the top end needs to be drastically cut. Who really needs more than 100k a year?

Public servants should be more sackable. I know there are people in the PS that give us me a bad name. They should be sent packing.

I have taken a pay cut and I am prepared to to take another one. I don't mind doing my bit.

if the gov did this then you would be a long way to solving the problem, unfortunately your unions wont allow it.

P. Breathnach

gurramok wrote: »

Examples?

Come off it. You read this forum, and you know what sort of stuff gets posted.

gurramok

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Come off it. You read this forum, and you know what sort of stuff gets posted.

No, i didnt see any personal stuff.

Give examples as proof that there is stuff been posted that is personal.

Tipp Man

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Come off it. You read this forum, and you know what sort of stuff gets posted.

gurramok wrote: »

No, i didnt see any personal stuff.

Give examples as proof that there is stuff been posted that is personal.

You are always expecting others to dig out stuff to back up statements, particularly stuff like you said

So show us the examples

meglome

Liam79 wrote: »

Diarmuid Doyle - "The journey of the public service employee from unambitious, unimaginative workhorse to shopaholic destroyer of an entire economy has been a sight to behold"

I really hadn't the strength to read your rant but this is pretty funny.

Scofflaw

Tipp Man wrote: »

You are always expecting others to dig out stuff to back up statements, particularly stuff like you said

So show us the examples

There's asking people for evidence where a point is contentious, and there's trying to send someone on a wild goose chase. Since I've repeatedly had to hand out infractions for personalising the discussions in threads on the PS, and ban a couple of people, I have no problem backing up the claim.

I'm pretty certain people don't want me to start digging for specific examples.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The_Honeybadger

Diarmuid wrote: »

anecdote vs data

The people who are going to risk their money in an effort to create/expand their business. Do you think someone who has €100 left over after paying their bills each month are going to be risking €1000's to hire another sales person/engineer etc.?
.

I think he was referring specifically to the public sector when he said who needs more than 100k a year, as far as I know they don't own businesses.

achtungbarry

mickeyk wrote: »

I think he was referring specifically to the public sector when he said who needs more than 100k a year, as far as I know they don't own businesses.

I was indeed. As an evil public sector worker I believe that 100k is more than enough for anyone in the upper levels of the public sector.

Liam79

Nobody argues that the upper echelons are over paid....thats well accepted and it annoys no one more than normal PS workers. The greivance most PS workers have is this idea that its gonne be a 7% across the boards cut....
7% off a Senior Engineer wont make much difference, 7% off a CO/LIbrary worker making 26k will cripple them

Thats the problem.
By all means go after the top blokes...but dont cripple families making less than 50k BETWEEN them or single income families making less than 30k

zootroid

frman wrote: »

Is this just another rant ?

Yes.

I have a real problem with the following sentence

Now that the boom is over – wrecked mainly, let us not forget, by the private sector

It is easy to see how dodgy lending practices of the banks, and greed of property developers/speculators caused the property bubble, but there was also an element of ineffectual regulation of the banks (public sector) and flawed macro economic policy (the government).

Saying the private sector caused the recession is a ridiculous statement. Economies are very complex things, and obviously something Diarmuid Doyle has very little understanding of.

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

There's asking people for evidence where a point is contentious, and there's trying to send someone on a wild goose chase. Since I've repeatedly had to hand out infractions for personalising the discussions in threads on the PS, and ban a couple of people, I have no problem backing up the claim.

I'm pretty certain people don't want me to start digging for specific examples.

Thank you.

I had just wasted all of ten or fifteen minutes collecting about a half a dozen examples from two recent threads, saying to myself that the demand for proof was vexatious. I won't post them now, because even as I was collecting my examples I was foreseeing people making specious claims that the post were not personalising the issues, and we could then get into silly arguments.

Liam79

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Thank you.

I had just wasted all of ten or fifteen minutes collecting about a half a dozen examples from two recent threads, saying to myself that the demand for proof was vexatious. I won't post them now, because even as I was collecting my examples I was foreseeing people making specious claims that the post were not personalising the issues, and we could then get into silly arguments.

There were tonnes of personal attacks incl 2 on my own spouse which i genuinely was going to report but figured i was old enough and bold enough to ignore

Dannyboy83

If there are personal attacks now, I wonder what will happen after the cuts are implemented in the budget?
I notice that thepropertypin have a stern "no glee" policy in relation to comments on how the housing market is plummeting to mean.

I just hope that people will have longer memories than usual when it comes to vote time at the next GE.

johnathan woss

Anyone who says that there haven't been countless posts on this forum personalising the issue is either an idiot or a liar.

Liam79

johnathan woss wrote: »

Anyone who says that there haven't been countless posts on this forum personalising the issue is either an idiot or a liar.

Or both :rolleyes:

ParkRunner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I notice that thepropertypin have a stern "no glee" policy in relation to comments on how the housing market is plummeting to mean.

I was thinking along similar lines that it wouldnt be such a bad idea to introduce such a policy here too, even for the short term in the days after the upcoming budget as there will be an awful lot of people facing into pretty tough personal financial times..whether public sector, private sector, unemployed or whatever. Any thoughts by mods?

Idbatterim

look were all losing the plot over the Private Sector v Public Sector debate, but the government dreamt up benchmarking and all of the ridiculous perks, benefits and pensions that some of the PS currently enjoy! Its those mugs in Government that are ultimately to blame!

bamboozle

spadder wrote: »

The simple fact is that we can't afford to continue to pay them all. It's nothing personal.

+1, hence the unions trying to create this divide between public and private sectors placing the blame squarely at the door of the private sector...mainly the banks when they turn a blind eye to the gross incompetence of the financial regulator/central bank and dept of finance to have a proper functioning financial environment in this country.

TGPS

A humourous piece to be sure but when I started reading it we had too many civil and public servants doing the wrong jobs in the wrong places and at the end of it we still had too many civil and public servants doing the wrong jobs in the wrong places.

The civil and public service didn't cause the collapse, but that doesn't mean we're not culpable. We stood by and let the eejits ride the train right off the rails - unless of course the Financial Services Regulator, Dept of Finance, Dept of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, and a whole host of regulatory bodies and organisations have only just been nationalised in the last six months?

We can sit around arguing about who caused it or get on and fix it - and unfortunately that means redundancies in the private and public sectors, wage reductions all around and someone in the political classes stepping up and providing some leadership.

K-9

Liam79 wrote: »

Nobody argues that the upper echelons are over paid....thats well accepted and it annoys no one more than normal PS workers. The greivance most PS workers have is this idea that its gonne be a 7% across the boards cut....
7% off a Senior Engineer wont make much difference, 7% off a CO/LIbrary worker making 26k will cripple them

Thats the problem.
By all means go after the top blokes...but dont cripple families making less than 50k BETWEEN them or single income families making less than 30k

An across the board cut is also unfair on lower paid workers as they pay lower tax. In effect, they lose a disproportionate share of their take home pay because they pay a marginal rate of 20% instead of 41%.

Somebody on 60k loses €4,200 Gross with a 7% cut but saves 41% tax, 2% Income levy, 8% PRSI, 5.9% Pension deduction after Tax and the pre existing 6.5% Pension deduction.

When you take account of the fact that they aren't paying these deductions on that €4,200, their Net Pay is reduced by €1,537. (36.6%)

Somebody on €30,000 loses €2,100 Gross. They don't pay tax of 20%, Income levy 2%, PRSI 8%, Pension deduction 8% after tax relief and the pre existing deduction of 6.5% on that €2,100. They lose about €1,165 Net. (55.5%).

Indeed, a married man on €30,000 whose wife doesn't work and has kids, could lose about €1,540 NET, the same as the person on 60,000.

If there is to be an across board cut, it needs to be done fairly across the board. People on €60,000 pay more tax but if it is to be done fairly, the lower paid shouldn't be affected disproportionately.

johnathan woss wrote: »

Anyone who says that there haven't been countless posts on this forum personalising the issue is either an idiot or a liar.

Indeed, from both sides.

P. Breathnach

K-9 wrote: »

An across the board cut is also unfair on lower paid workers...

It's not necessarily unfair, even though it might hurt a bit more. The ESRI has concluded, as I have posted before, that the public service premium enjoyed by the lower grades is greater than that enjoyed by the higher grades. See http://www.esri.ie/publications/latest_publications/view/index.xml?id=2848

rasper

Now that the boom is over – wrecked mainly, let us not forget, by the private sector



Isnt that we had many highly paid regulators, advisors, boards, dept of finance, central bank etc to protect our pseudo-economy

K-9

P. Breathnach wrote: »

It's not necessarily unfair, even though it might hurt a bit more. The ESRI has concluded, as I have posted before, that the public service premium enjoyed by the lower grades is greater than that enjoyed by the higher grades. See http://www.esri.ie/publications/latest_publications/view/index.xml?id=2848

I'm still not convinced by that. Lower paid workers don't really get any benefit from Public Sector pensions and looking at Civil Servant pay rates, I don't see it. Maybe Health and Education have higher paid Administrators.

rasper wrote: »

Now that the boom is over – wrecked mainly, let us not forget, by the private sector



Isnt that we had many highly paid regulators, advisors, boards, dept of finance, central bank etc to protect our pseudo-economy

And let us not forget who created the boom that enabled benchmarking and the pay rises.

brianthebard

bamboozle wrote: »

+1, hence the unions trying to create this divide between public and private sectors placing the blame squarely at the door of the private sector...

What do you mean the unions are creating this divide? That's nonsense, does SIPTU not represent both public and private sector workers anymore?

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

What do you mean the unions are creating this divide? That's nonsense, does SIPTU not represent both public and private sector workers anymore?

Do we have to post the figures on Union membership?

When is it going to sink in that Unions are the majority in the Public Sector and a minority in the Private Sector.

brianthebard

You seem to have misunderstood my point.

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

You seem to have misunderstood my point.

Not at all.

Unions represent a minority in the Private Sector. It may seem they represent the majority of workers, if it's the Public Sector.

It is self affirming, not the reality and partly to blame for the divide.

P. Breathnach

K-9 wrote: »

I'm still not convinced by that. Lower paid workers don't really get any benefit from Public Sector pensions and looking at Civil Servant pay rates, I don't see it. Maybe Health and Education have higher paid Administrators...

Frankly, your argument for rejecting the ESRI study is a little thin.

TGPS

K-9 wrote: »

And let us not forget who created the boom that enabled benchmarking and the pay rises.

Ken Whitaker?

.....noted economist and public servant.....

K-9

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Frankly, your argument for rejecting the ESRI study is a little thin.

Not rejecting it at all.

TGPS wrote: »

Ken Whitaker?

.....noted economist and public servant.....

That would be it al right! :rolleyes: What has changed in the last 50 years?

The_Honeybadger

K-9 wrote: »

I'm still not convinced by that. Lower paid workers don't really get any benefit from Public Sector pensions and looking at Civil Servant pay rates, I don't see it. Maybe Health and Education have higher paid Administrators.

Take the example of a clerical worker after 6-8 years service would be on 30k +. Many clerical workers don't have qualifications as such and would probably be the equivelent of an office assistant in private sector. I don't know any office assistants in the private sector on 30k do you? Increments and so on drive the wages up over time. Take into account their better holidays, guaranteed jobs & pension and it's a huge benefit. None of these people are well off obviously but they're surely alot better off than their counterparts in the private sector. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my take on it.

rossithelegend

mickeyk wrote: »

Take the example of a clerical worker after 6-8 years service would be on 30k +. Many clerical workers don't have qualifications as such and would probably be the equivelent of an office assistant in private sector. I don't know any office assistants in the private sector on 30k do you? Increments and so on drive the wages up over time. Take into account their better holidays, guaranteed jobs & pension and it's a huge benefit. None of these people are well off obviously but they're surely alot better off than their counterparts in the private sector. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my take on it.

Not quite there are plenty of people in the public service with 3rd level degrees, skills and qualifications but unfortunately the antiquated promotion system in place means they may be over looked and remain on a lower level grade. Also there is a cap on each scale so it's not sure fire that the wages will increase every year!

diverdriver

Here we go again, the self perpetuating myth of the demonisation of the public service workers and blaming them for the recession.

I'm sorry who exactly is doing this? I want references, I want evidence in writing of people saying this recession was caused by the public sector?

Diarmuid Doyle apparently has bought into this too. Where is is coming from?

The truth is that there is no demonisation of the PS. No one blames the PS for the recession. It's a propaganda ploy by the unions.

I'm sure one or two of you would describe me as a 'public service basher'. That's a popular one at the moment. But my criticism of the total lack of realism demonstrated by the unions and their members on their marches and strikes. The apparent inability to grasp that no matter whose fault it is there is no longer the tax money to pay them. Virtually everyone here on this website holds a similar view. Few if any think the PS caused or an in fact practising demons.

But it seems you can add your own union leades to the list now with the 'not a pay cut', unpaid leave proposal.

But keep this up, keep going on strike and we'll soon see how people will actually turn against the PS. Time will tell.

ronbyrne2005

rossithelegend wrote: »

Not quite there are plenty of people in the public service with 3rd level degrees, skills and qualifications but unfortunately the antiquated promotion system in place means they may be over looked and remain on a lower level grade. Also there is a cap on each scale so it's not sure fire that the wages will increase every year!

In private sector you get paid for the job you do not the qualifications you hold. If someone with a philosophy degree goes for clerical position in private sector his degree is irrelevant and he gets nothin extra for it.

Riskymove

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

In private sector you get paid for the job you do not the qualifications you hold. If someone with a philosophy degree goes for clerical position in private sector his degree is irrelevant and he gets nothin extra for it.

but of course in the public sector a clerical officer gets extra for having a degree, right?.....right?:rolleyes:

brianthebard

K-9 wrote: »

Not at all.

Unions represent a minority in the Private Sector. It may seem they represent the majority of workers, if it's the Public Sector.

It is self affirming, not the reality and partly to blame for the divide.

No, you still don't understand my point.

The_Honeybadger

rossithelegend wrote: »

Not quite there are plenty of people in the public service with 3rd level degrees, skills and qualifications but unfortunately the antiquated promotion system in place means they may be over looked and remain on a lower level grade. Also there is a cap on each scale so it's not sure fire that the wages will increase every year!

Of course there are public servants with degrees and good qualifications, but I was referring specifically to clerical officers as an example, I doubt 3rd level degrees are the norm at that level, if they are then have these people no ambition? Cap on salary at CO level is 37k, again i reiterate my point that people doing similar work in the private sector would never reach that salary. I'm not a public service "basher" but thats simply the truth. The secretary in my company gets paid about 23k and has been there 4 years for example, how much better off would she be in the civil service.

rossithelegend

Riskymove wrote: »

but of course in the public sector a clerical officer gets extra for having a degree, right?.....right?:rolleyes:

No they don't they may get extra marks when going for the Interview for the position but they start on the bottom of the scale same as everyone else. In fact there haven't been many people with degrees come in to the Public / Civil Service over the last 5 years or so it got so bad for recruitment that they had to abolish the leaving cert requirment to get people in the door!

K-9

brianthebard wrote: »

No, you still don't understand my point.

What is it?

K-9

mickeyk wrote: »

Take the example of a clerical worker after 6-8 years service would be on 30k +. Many clerical workers don't have qualifications as such and would probably be the equivelent of an office assistant in private sector. I don't know any office assistants in the private sector on 30k do you? Increments and so on drive the wages up over time. Take into account their better holidays, guaranteed jobs & pension and it's a huge benefit. None of these people are well off obviously but they're surely alot better off than their counterparts in the private sector. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my take on it.

Are they the equivalent though? I'm not sure myself.

An assistant may start on 22/23k and after 8 years I'd expect the wage to be 30k in normal circumstances. A 33% rise in wages over 8 years, based on experience and pay rises wouldn't be out of the way.

I do say normal circumstances because they are over!

Not sure if holidays are that much better and the pension depends. On 30k, you'd be entitled to 15k, not much if you are married. The state pension I think is higher.

dvpower

Liam79 wrote: »

To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice.

Liam79 wrote: »

To those people in the private sector who insist on the demonisation of public service workers, I would quote the great Roy Keane: Get Over It. If the public sector was the fantastic land of opportunity you say it is now, you could have joined at any point in your working past. But you made a choice to go the private route, as I did, and as did many of my colleagues who now so boldly lead the charge against the public service. Try as I might, I can't think of a single reason why public sector workers should be held responsible for that choice


well said old chap

???
Self praise is no praise.

The_Honeybadger

K-9 wrote: »

Are they the equivalent though? I'm not sure myself.

An assistant may start on 22/23k and after 8 years I'd expect the wage to be 30k in normal circumstances. A 33% rise in wages over 8 years, based on experience and pay rises wouldn't be out of the way.

I do say normal circumstances because they are over!

Not sure if holidays are that much better and the pension depends. On 30k, you'd be entitled to 15k, not much if you are married. The state pension I think is higher.

Normal circumstances are certainly over. I still doubt there are many office assistants earning 30k+ but we shall agree to disagree, perhaps they just don't stay 8 years. State pension is about 12k net so agreed there is no great benefit in the pension my mistake. Think they get 30 days hols in PS and can add to this with extra hrs through flexitime etc in some cases. Again I'm no expert but IMO the lower paid are better off in the PS overall.

rossithelegend

mickeyk wrote: »

Of course there are public servants with degrees and good qualifications, but I was referring specifically to clerical officers as an example, I doubt 3rd level degrees are the norm at that level, if they are then have these people no ambition? Cap on salary at CO level is 37k, again i reiterate my point that people doing similar work in the private sector would never reach that salary. I'm not a public service "basher" but thats simply the truth. The secretary in my company gets paid about 23k and has been there 4 years for example, how much better off would she be in the civil service.

A CO is a more Diverse role than a secretary but it would have similarities and plenty of people with degrees etc went into public service because it offered them flexibility and a lifestyle that they wanted. In the private sector you have the opportunity of being selected for promotion not something that heppens in the PS no matter how good you are. Also should there not be an element of peoples wages reflecting the experience as im sure you'll agree a CO with a number of years experience that knows the workings of their Dept and Organisation in a number of different areas deserves credit based on their experience?? Promotions in the Public service happen maybe every few years and the lower level grades are the toughest to move through due to competition being quite high i.e 500 applicants for 30 positions in some cases!