How Much Sleep and Latest I Should Eat?

O.P.H

I train everyday late in the evenings, usually start at 9 or 10. I alternate between cardio one day and fullbody weights the next. Only take a day off if I feel I need to.

I've been tryin to do 6 hours sleep but it just aint workin. I wake up tired with kinda sore eyes and a bit of a headache on nights I didnt get good sleep.

Gonna go for 7 hours anymore and just want to know if this is good enough, I always wake up fine after 7. 8 hours just seems like too much of a stretch and would be diificult to fit in.

Also, I always have a protien shake and smallish meal after session then go to bed, is this bad.

Normal build, looking to gain muscle and lose little belly fat etc.

Khannie

O.P.H wrote: »

I've been tryin to do 6 hours sleep but it just aint workin.

Jesus. 6 hours!!!!!!!! No way. 8 at a minimum for proper recovery IMO. I'd sleep more than that in the run up to a fight given the option. 7 is the absolute balls to the wall bare minimum I'd consider if you're exercising regularly.

O.P.H

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwiY9xxt5Us

Crap, did'nt think ya needed the 8 hours that badly. Will start givin it a go I suppose, cheers.

mloc

If you're training hard, regularly, 8 is a minimum. Aim for 9 or 10.

jayoo

Id rarely get over 5 :(:(

J-Fit

mloc wrote: »

If you're training hard, regularly, 8 is a minimum. Aim for 9 or 10.

This is complete and utter horse sh1t. Everybody is different. I myself am often sluggish after 8 but completely solid after 6.5 hours of sleep. There are no hard and fast rules about this and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong, despite the mystical '8 hour rule'. 10 might be fine for you but I don't like spending almost half the day in bed and I love my sleep. OP, let your body be the judge of how much sleep you need and don't force it to go longer than it needs or wants to.

http://www.formerfatguy.com/articles/sleep-recommended-hours.asp

eroo

J-Fit wrote: »

This is complete and utter horse sh1t. Everybody is different. I myself am often sluggish after 8 but completely solid after 6.5 hours of sleep. There are no hard and fast rules about this and anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong, despite the mystical '8 hour rule'. 10 might be fine for you but I don't like spending almost half the day in bed and I love my sleep. OP, let your body be the judge of how much sleep you need and don't force it to go longer than it needs or wants to.

http://www.formerfatguy.com/articles/sleep-recommended-hours.asp

Rather than slate it as 'horse sh1t', you need to understand something. Just because you feel ok or not sluggish, does not mean your body is recovered. It takes your energy systems, and neuromuscular system time to recover. Your body uses sleep as optimal time for recovery. You may feel ok after 6.5 hours, doesn't mean your fully recovered.

However, you just might be, as everybody is different. Like everything else in fitness, nutrition etc a lot of it depends on genetics.. the 8 hours is a recommended time, not set in stone merely a guideline. But a good giudeline to follow nonetheless.

As for articles from a site called 'formerfatguy.com'... I wouldn't use their articles as references/sources.

spiral

j-fit your point is relevant only when people dont have to get up at a particular time , most people have to work , study , train, get up to feed kids and dont have the luxury of letting the body decide when to wake up.

Also the article you linked to is slightly misleading the guy talked about having a nap during the day and being very meticulous in his diet and not drinking coffee or alcohol to ensure that the six hours he got at night were good quality .

Again while this is all ideal most people dont have the oppurtunity to nap during the day and will most likely drink a coffee or have a beer from time to time

Khannie

J-Fit wrote: »

This is complete and utter horse sh1t. Everybody is different. I myself am often sluggish after 8 but completely solid after 6.5 hours of sleep.

Take it easy there please.

If you're going to reference something, try to aim for it to be a study before you go calling 8 hours horsesh*t.

corkcomp

its different for everyone and depends on exercise, type of job and diet etc .. i find I never sleep longer than 7 hours no matter what, and I can get away with 6 ... I can only fit gym work in before work so if i needed more sleep I would have to sarcrifice that! OP, what you describe could often be a symptom of over training .. I dont think I could ever train that late at night after a long day at work etc ..

J-Fit

I expected fireworks after that. Ok, the reality is that everybody is different. 6.5 is perfect for me though i usually sleep longer. The article is written by Tom Venuto who is a very reputable source. I'm an academic myself but I'm not short sighted enough to think that research is the be all and end all. Anecdotal observations are far more telling in this instance because most studys you read will be either biased or based on mean observations. Most of the people I have worked with find that when they are training hard and eating well, that their sleep requirements diminish. This is the best evidence I can give. The worst thing you can do is decide that 8 eight hours must be reached or else.

J-Fit

spiral wrote: »

j-fit your point is relevant only when people dont have to get up at a particular time , most people have to work , study , train, get up to feed kids and dont have the luxury of letting the body decide when to wake up.

I wasn't talking about wake up time. I was talking about overall time. Get up when you need to but don't force the body to do what it doesn't need or want to do. If 5 hours is right for you, thats fine. The 8 hour figure has been arrived at because of the metanalaysis of a range of studys. Its an average and maybe the OP just isn't average. Telling him he needs 10 hours sleep is of no use whatsoever.

J-Fit

eroo wrote: »

You may feel ok after 6.5 hours, doesn't mean your fully recovered.

For me personally it does. All my best lifts etc. have come when I have been sleeping this length of time.

Hanley

I'd say in the last 6 months I've probably had more than 8 hours sleep less then 10% of the nights I've been in bed. Averaging out around 6 I'd say, but still surviving!!

J-Fit

Hanley wrote: »

I'd say in the last 6 months I've probably had more than 8 hours sleep less then 10% of the nights I've been in bed. Averaging out around 6 I'd say, but still surviving!!

Exactly and looking at your log it seems you are training pretty dam hard. Its often just a symptom of being a healthy bastard!

Khannie

J-Fit wrote: »

For me personally it does. All my best lifts etc. have come when I have been sleeping this length of time.

You cannot equate one to the other directly. How was your diet when you were sleeping 8 hours, stress levels, etc. etc. etc.

Similarly, just because Tom says he peaked when at X hours sleep does not mean that he reached his potential.

Personally, when I'm training hard, my sleep requirements increase dramatically. The only time I like to sleep more than 8 hours a day is when I'm exercising more than 3 hours a day. Currently (sitting on my hole for the last 5 days) I'm getting by fine on 6 hours.

J-Fit

Khannie wrote: »

You cannot equate one to the other directly. How was your diet when you were sleeping 8 hours, stress levels, etc. etc. etc.

Similarly, just because Tom says he peaked when at X hours sleep does not mean that he reached his potential.

Personally, when I'm training hard, my sleep requirements increase dramatically. The only time I like to sleep more than 8 hours a day is when I'm exercising more than 3 hours a day. Currently (sitting on my hole for the last 5 days) I'm getting by fine on 6 hours.

Thats fine though. Thats just you. Mine decreases. I'm not stupid enough to think that correlation equals causation but when you consider all the factors, you simply cant deny the evidence. Like I said, this is me and that is you. There are no hard and fast rules. I'm also taking into account my mood, my alertness, my efficiency when working. All things considered, I doubt I'm wrong about myself and I know my own body. As you do yours. Also if you read the article Venuto confirms that he was in his best condition with 5.5 hours sleep.

mloc

I think we're missing the point here; the OP said he wasn't getting by on 6. Therefore, an increase in sleep would most likely be a good place to start.

eroo

J-Fit wrote: »

I expected fireworks after that. Ok, the reality is that everybody is different. 6.5 is perfect for me though i usually sleep longer. The article is written by Tom Venuto who is a very reputable source. I'm an academic myself but I'm not short sighted enough to think that research is the be all and end all. Anecdotal observations are far more telling in this instance because most studys you read will be either biased or based on mean observations. Most of the people I have worked with find that when they are training hard and eating well, that their sleep requirements diminish. This is the best evidence I can give. The worst thing you can do is decide that 8 eight hours must be reached or else.

Does Venuto have any academic qualifications? If not his use as a source is ill advised, as your using his personal experiences as the source. His experiences wont work for everyone, and we have no idea of the controls put in place i.e. training load, training goal, diet, training intensity+frequency etc

Whereas academic research can be very good at determing results, as there are controls put in place and they are monitored meticulously. Studies can be biased, but imo most are not. Yes some are determined on mean observations, but that is the best way. Why? Because it covers all varities of subjects rather than just one, thus allowing for a more realistic result.

I will see if I can dig up some studies on recovery and sleep.. but regardless what you may need, OP may need different.

eroo

O.P.H wrote: »

I train everyday late in the evenings, usually start at 9 or 10. I alternate between cardio one day and fullbody weights the next. Only take a day off if I feel I need to.
Days off are vital. Rest and recovery are being neglected here. Ensure at least a day off, if not 2 each training week to allow for recovery. Also, after every 5-6 training weeks, take a rest week. Lower the number of sessions, to maybe 2 cardio and 1 weights.
I've been tryin to do 6 hours sleep but it just aint workin. I wake up tired with kinda sore eyes and a bit of a headache on nights I didnt get good sleep.
Your lack of rest could be affecting your sleep, as your body's systems are fatigued and find it difficult to maintain a normal pattern.
Gonna go for 7 hours anymore and just want to know if this is good enough, I always wake up fine after 7. 8 hours just seems like too much of a stretch and would be diificult to fit in.
See how you get on, but listen to your body!
Also, I always have a protien shake and smallish meal after session then go to bed, is this bad.
Nothing wrong with that
Normal build, looking to gain muscle and lose little belly fat etc.

Most important thing OP, allow for more rest and recovery!!

lucky-colm

jeesss thought id never be posting in here but i sleep roughly 5hours anight if i done a 7-8 hour stint there would be something seriously wrong with me i don't plan to sleep for only 5 hours i just wake up at 6 every morning and go to bed at 12.30 earliest.

i was never a one for staying in bed even when i was young i was allways up early

rubadub

http://arabia.msn.com/Women/HealthAndFitness/2009/October/MuscleBuilding.aspx

CONCLUSION


You need 7-9 hours of sleep each night (8 being the ideal) in order for your body to run efficiently.


Deprive your body of sleep and you'll have lousy fat loss and hinder your body's ability to increase lean muscle tone. Without enough sleep the body stops producing anabolic hormones (muscle producing/fat burning hormones; e.g. testosterone and growth hormone) and starts increasing the production of catabolic hormones (muscle destroying/fat depositing hormones; e.g. cortisol).


So, to make matters worst, you'll also lose muscle, which lowers your metabolism. In addition, you will lack the energy and focus to get through your workouts, which will surely lead to overtraining.


To top it off, research indicates that lack of sleep creates cravings and binges in addition to hardening of the arteries, which leads to heart attacks.


In short: turn off the TV, relax and hit the sack!

MrPain

Following on from rubadub's post Growth hormaone secretion levels rise substanially during deep sleep, which is usually the last stage before you naturally wake up. So if your deep sleep is constantly being cut short by an alarmclock or other factors it is going to hinder your anabolic rate.

RacoonQueen

Khannie wrote: »

Jesus. 6 hours!!!!!!!! No way. 8 at a minimum for proper recovery IMO. I'd sleep more than that in the run up to a fight given the option. 7 is the absolute balls to the wall bare minimum I'd consider if you're exercising regularly.

mloc wrote: »

If you're training hard, regularly, 8 is a minimum. Aim for 9 or 10.

:eek:

Where do you find the time to sleep for that long? :eek:

Hanley

Haven't their been studies that show around 6 hours of sleep per night is optimal for longevity?

J-Fit

rubadub wrote: »

http://arabia.msn.com/Women/HealthAndFitness/2009/October/MuscleBuilding.aspx

Thats all very well. Again its down to the individual. I sleep about 7 hours most nights but sometimes as little as 5. My body fat is at its lowest ever (9%) and I'm as muscular as I've ever been. My mother is a super-charged woman who trains every day of her life and follows an extra strict diet. She sleeps between 3 and 6 hours a night and at the age of 51, looks like a woman half her age. There is two sides to this. Everybody is different. I know some bodybuilders who do cardio deep into the night. The legendary Soviet weightlifter Vasilly Alexyev would train when he felt his body was right. Quite often this occurred in the middle of the night. The OP might well need more sleep but don't tell him this is a necessity if you don't know the facts. This business of a definitive 8-10 (or whatever parameter your beliefs and opinions dictate to you) is just not true. Besides, most studies are performed on sedentary people with poor eating habits.

J-Fit

MrPain wrote: »

Following on from rubadub's post Growth hormaone secretion levels rise substanially during deep sleep, which is usually the last stage before you naturally wake up. So if your deep sleep is constantly being cut short by an alarmclock or other factors it is going to hinder your anabolic rate.

You cant make everything perfect. People need alarm clocks to wake up. People miss meals. People miss workouts. People cheat on their diets. You'll never get everything right and there is no point in trying.

J-Fit

eroo wrote: »

Does Venuto have any academic qualifications? If not his use as a source is ill advised, as your using his personal experiences as the source

I dont know, does it matter? And why is one of the world's foremost natural bodybuilders a poor choice? Is his informed opinion lesser than that of an academic researcher?

J-Fit

eroo wrote: »

but regardless what you may need, OP may need different.

Yeah I said that.

spiral

J-Fit wrote: »

I wasn't talking about wake up time. I was talking about overall time. Get up when you need to but don't force the body to do what it doesn't need or want to do. If 5 hours is right for you, thats fine. The 8 hour figure has been arrived at because of the metanalaysis of a range of studys. Its an average and maybe the OP just isn't average. Telling him he needs 10 hours sleep is of no use whatsoever.

not really sure what you are trying to say here

eroo

J-Fit wrote: »

I dont know, does it matter? And why is one of the world's foremost natural bodybuilders a poor choice? Is his informed opinion lesser than that of an academic researcher?

Yes it does, because he should be able to back up his claims rather than just write of his experiences. It makes him a poor choice because he may be genetically gifted, like a lot of the top bodybuilders in the world appear to be.. including the Soviet you mentioned. They are exceptions rather than the rule, so to use them as a base of information to draw conclusions from is no good imo.

Hanley

eroo wrote: »

Yes it does, because he should be able to back up his claims rather than just write of his experiences. It makes him a poor choice because he may be genetically gifted, like a lot of the top bodybuilders in the world appear to be.. including the Soviet you mentioned. They are exceptions rather than the rule, so to use them as a base of information to draw conclusions from is no good imo.

And here comes the genetics argument again.

BossArky

O.P.H wrote: »

I train everyday late in the evenings, usually start at 9 or 10. I alternate between cardio one day and fullbody weights the next. Only take a day off if I feel I need to.

I've been tryin to do 6 hours sleep but it just aint workin. I wake up tired with kinda sore eyes and a bit of a headache on nights I didnt get good sleep.

Gonna go for 7 hours anymore and just want to know if this is good enough, I always wake up fine after 7. 8 hours just seems like too much of a stretch and would be diificult to fit in.

Also, I always have a protien shake and smallish meal after session then go to bed, is this bad.

Normal build, looking to gain muscle and lose little belly fat etc.

If diet and training were optimal you wouldn't have the belly fat due to current volume of training.

If you are tried you need more of one of the following (in no particular order)

• good food
• sleep
• time off from training to recover, refill glycogen stores and sooth sore joints

Try 2 days on, 1 off e.g.
Day1: full body weights
Day2: cardio
Day3: off
Day4: full body weights
Day5: cardio
Day6: off
...etc

Can you work out early in the morning? This would allow you 12 hours of eat and fill your body with good food to aid recovery.

If you train late at night you can only fit in one big meal which will be digested in a few hours and you'll be starving by the morning, slowing down recovery.

Oh, and sleep a bit more.

metamorphosis

j-fit: there is a multi quote button you can use so that you don't have to individually reply back to other posters.

I usually get anywhere from 5-8. Average would be 6-7. I find with 6/7 hours sleep im alert and going for the day. Anymore than 8 i don't want tp get out of the bed and am tired for the day. Go figure.

J-Fit

ULstudent wrote: »

j-fit: there is a multi quote button you can use so that you don't have to individually reply back to other posters.

I usually get anywhere from 5-8. Average would be 6-7. I find with 6/7 hours sleep im alert and going for the day. Anymore than 8 i don't want tp get out of the bed and am tired for the day. Go figure.

Exactly the same as me.

O.P.H

BossArky wrote: »

If diet and training were optimal you wouldn't have the belly fat due to current volume of training.

If you are tried you need more of one of the following (in no particular order)

• good food
• sleep
• time off from training to recover, refill glycogen stores and sooth sore joints

Try 2 days on, 1 off e.g.
Day1: full body weights
Day2: cardio
Day3: off
Day4: full body weights
Day5: cardio
Day6: off
...etc

Can you work out early in the morning? This would allow you 12 hours of eat and fill your body with good food to aid recovery.

If you train late at night you can only fit in one big meal which will be digested in a few hours and you'll be starving by the morning, slowing down recovery.

Oh, and sleep a bit more.

Training in the morning just dosent suit me.

As for the sleep, I just dont think I can get 8 hours in. I'm gonna make sure I get a minimum of 7 hours and see how that goes for a few weeks and will also start making sure I take regular off days. Cheers for advice people.