Dole cut for under-23's likely

jape

Some breaking news today :

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dole-cut-for-under-23s-mooted-436225.html

Dole cut for under-23s mooted

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29/11/2009 - 10:53:06
The Government is considering cutting unemployment assistance by 20% for those under 23 years of age.

It comes as the Minister for Finance argues the case that €4bn in cuts in the budget are essential to bring stability to the country and reassure those funding our debt.

The job seekers' allowance paid to those under 23 could be cut to €160 to reduce the social welfare bill and encourage more young people into training.

It's also reported a cut of 2-3% in the basic unemployment benefit would save between €100m and €150m.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dole-cut-for-under-23s-mooted-436225.html#ixzz0YFv7AE11

My opinion on this is, yes it should be cut for them, but not of that age for people who have young families, maybe a mortgage, etc.

The "oh this will encourage them into education" is an absolute cop-out though.

murphaph

The money's not there so cuts have to be made. Germany will only lend a feckless Ireland money for so long. They have already told Cowen and Lenihan to produce some serious cuts soon or else. 20% is too little tbh. It should be 20% for all dole recipients and 40% for dole recipients with less than 10 years stamps.

jenzz

Hmm encourage them into training ???? Thats a bit strange

Where they going to be trained? Did Fas not run off with all the money ..................

Fighting Irish

jape wrote: »

Some breaking news today :

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dole-cut-for-under-23s-mooted-436225.html



My opinion on this is, yes it should be cut for them, but not of that age for people who have young families, maybe a mortgage, etc.

The "oh this will encourage them into education" is an absolute cop-out though.

So the sensible should be punished as usual, got ya

jape

Fighting Irish wrote: »

So the sensible should be punished as usual, got ya

Pray tell, what is the optimum age for having children/purchasing a property ?

collegegraduate

What about students who have degree's, h dips, masters who cannot get a job and who cannot further their training as it is too expensive? this should be means tested. People in this category who live at home should be cut.

irish_bob

while the old age pension should be cut too as its far too generous when you add on the other perks , i dont blame any goverment for excluding this most important voter demographic , some sacred cows cannot be ignored

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

while the old age pension should be cut too as its far too generous when you add on the other perks , i dont blame any goverment for excluding this most important voter demographic , some sacred cows cannot be ignored

The old age pension too generous?? Are you for real, try living on it.

thebman

Fighting Irish wrote: »

So the sensible should be punished as usual, got ya

Problem is you can't get blood from a turnip.

The government have to realise that they will lose the vote of everyone without a mortgage in the coming years anyway as they will take measures to protect mortgage holders guaranteed as they'll lose votes if they don't.

Its all about how many votes they lose because thats all they care about.

BlueLepreachaun

murphaph wrote: »

The money's not there so cuts have to be made. Germany will only lend a feckless Ireland money for so long. They have already told Cowen and Lenihan to produce some serious cuts soon or else. 20% is too little tbh. It should be 20% for all dole recipients and 40% for dole recipients with less than 10 years stamps.

Isn't it amazing how we absoloutly cannot borrow for a stimulas package because our credit ratings so bad yet we can borrow unknown billions for NAMA, can (supposidly) borrow €500m a week for current spending, we radided the pension reserve fund to give AIB and Bank of Ireland €8billion in welfare...but we just CANNOT afford a stimulas plan or an extra 20quid a week for people under 23!! WE JUST CANT...its very mysterious to me.

The job seekers' allowance paid to those under 23 could be cut to €160 to reduce the social welfare bill and encourage more young people into training.

...don't they have to pay you to train if your on the dole? In fact, in FAS they pay you more...so this doens't make any sense if they're trying to save money, unless they plan on cutting the money going to those joker training schemes as well...which would defeat the entire supposed incentive for people to do them they are talking about here.
So maybe the cuts just to show the people were borrowing from that were doing something? It seems very haphazard and poorly thought out.

...and if it's not the joker courses in FAS and they mean unviersities or ITs how are people going to afford to pay the fees for those on €180 a week?

If you wanted to encourage people into training this also doens't make sense from the perspective of the age they've picked, its not the under 23s that are undertained and underskilled its the over 50s.

This is nothing to do with encouraging people into training, and everything to do with a desperate scramble to save money.
They must have picked 23 because that age cut off would save the most money.

Once again their answer is cuts cuts cuts.
Whats hillarious is in January they will be scratching their heads wondering why consumer confidence is so low and why their VAT receipts keep plummeting forcing them to make even more cuts.

Morons.

irish_bob wrote: »

while the old age pension should be cut too as its far too generous when you add on the other perks , i dont blame any goverment for excluding this most important voter demographic , some sacred cows cannot be ignored

Yes...€230 a week...those pensioners are out of control!!! They probably blow it all at the roulette tables in Vegas!
...sure they've nothing else to spend it on! What with all the "perks" like saving AS MUCH AS €20 a week on bus fares! My god, they probably bought a Lexus with that saved €20..maybe even three.

ntlbell

collegegraduate wrote: »

What about students who have degree's, h dips, masters who cannot get a job and who cannot further their training as it is too expensive? this should be means tested. People in this category who live at home should be cut.

how is doing fas/fetac courses on the goverments dime exspensive to the student?

c4cat

jape wrote: »

Some breaking news today :

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/dole-cut-for-under-23s-mooted-436225.html



My opinion on this is, yes it should be cut for them, but not of that age for people who have young families, maybe a mortgage, etc.

The "oh this will encourage them into education" is an absolute cop-out though.

Would this not be age discrimination????

BlueLepreachaun

ntlbell wrote: »

how is doing fas/fetac courses on the goverments dime exspensive to the student?

I beleive he said degrees and masters, both of which are quite expensive.
If you have a degree or a masters some poxy FAS course where you spend all day sitting around a computer room playing with powerpoint and excel is of no use to you, and if you can't get a job with a degree or masters you certanly aren't getting one from one of those joker FAS courses.
Doing a FAS course after a degree would be like going back to a PLC course after finishing a masters.

The_Honeybadger

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I beleive he said degrees and masters, both of which are quite expensive.
If you have a degree or a masters some poxy FAS course where you spend all day sitting around a computer room playing with powerpoint and excel is of no use to you, and if you can't get a job with a degree or masters you certanly aren't getting one from one of those joker FAS courses.
Doing a FAS course after a degree would be like going back to a PLC course after finishing a masters.

Couldnt agree more, it would be a complete waste of time for well qualified grads to do FAS courses, what we need is some jobs schemes where they can get experience so that they are ready to avail of whetever opportunities come about if there is an upturn. I reckon the government is hoping alot of this educated agegroup will leave until things improve,, many may never return, why would they.

seclachi

Stupid idea, the idea that when you turn 23 and stuff gets expensive is a pile of ****e, what about people who have basically been kicked out by there parents or dont get any support from them ? Likewise, what about 27 year old wasters who live at home leeching anyway. It should all be covered by the means test anyway.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I beleive he said degrees and masters, both of which are quite expensive.
If you have a degree or a masters some poxy FAS course where you spend all day sitting around a computer room playing with powerpoint and excel is of no use to you, and if you can't get a job with a degree or masters you certanly aren't getting one from one of those joker FAS courses.
Doing a FAS course after a degree would be like going back to a PLC course after finishing a masters.

but if they all ready have the degree/masters what's the exspense of doing on going training got to do with the cost of the degree/masters?

Having interevied many students with degrees and masters I'm finding your posts pretty amusing.

I often get comp-sci//computer forensics/IT general BSc's applying for work and they come in and some of them have never as much as picked up a network cable before and can't do as much as install a HDD.

Have you ever done a FAS course?

There is a lot of excellent FAS courses being offered these days where you will get out of them what you put into them.

If you're a comp-sci/general IT graduate and do say a net+/CCNA/A+ course in FAS you'll actually increase your chances of getting hired because you will have some hands on expirience and not just have read about them in a book.

Untill you can actually offer something tangible to an employer your masters/degree is basically toilet paper and most of the people holding them would require someone to help them wipe there behinds with it.

With an attidue like yours your probably right, a FAS course would be useless, but for people with a more positive outlook could really add to thier worth by doing something than sitting around all day on their backsides whining.

mal1

ntlbell wrote: »

but if they all ready have the degree/masters what's the exspense of doing on going training got to do with the cost of the degree/masters?

Having interevied many students with degrees and masters I'm finding your posts pretty amusing.

I often get comp-sci//computer forensics/IT general BSc's applying for work and they come in and some of them have never as much as picked up a network cable before and can't do as much as install a HDD.

Have you ever done a FAS course?

There is a lot of excellent FAS courses being offered these days where you will get out of them what you put into them.

If you're a comp-sci/general IT graduate and do say a net+/CCNA/A+ course in FAS you'll actually increase your chances of getting hired because you will have some hands on expirience and not just have read about them in a book.

Untill you can actually offer something tangible to an employer your masters/degree is basically toilet paper and most of the people holding them would require someone to help them wipe there behinds with it.

With an attidue like yours your probably right, a FAS course would be useless, but for people with a more positive outlook could really add to thier worth by doing something than sitting around all day on their backsides whining.

Surely your interviewing a degree graduate for a technician's job, if you're expecting them to be able installing a HDD??

ntlbell

mal1 wrote: »

Surely your interviewing a degree graduate for a technician's job, if you're expecting them to be able installing a HDD??

The job's I would be hiring for have nothing to do with installing HDD's.

I'm using it as an example of how technically inept they can be.

Do you not think for example a senior sys admin would on occasion would have to replace a hdd?

do you think replacing a disk is above the skills of a person who hasn't done a days work in his life?

frightening.

BlueLepreachaun

mickeyk wrote: »

Couldnt agree more, it would be a complete waste of time for well qualified grads to do FAS courses, what we need is some jobs schemes where they can get experience so that they are ready to avail of whetever opportunities come about if there is an upturn. I reckon the government is hoping alot of this educated agegroup will leave until things improve,, many may never return, why would they.

Absoloutly, I think they kinda had the right idea with the current job experience shceme but I dont like it because it basicaly gives private companies free slave labour.
There are plenty of public works jobs that can be done, matched to peoples skills, while they are on the dole, to gain both experience and have something to deal with the boredom and monotony of being on the dole, even 20 hours a week say, doens't have to be full time, in fact for 200euro a week it definitly shoudn't be!

but if they all ready have the degree/masters what's the exspense of doing on going training got to do with the cost of the degree/masters?

If they were to go forward and do decent training as opposed to a FAS course, since the spin of this measure is that its to encourage people into training. I resent the implication that they are just sitting on their asses and need to be given a kick to do more training. I dont think half the Dail even have a degree.

Having interevied many students with degrees and masters I'm finding your posts pretty amusing.

Many people with degrees cannot get jobs, thats the point I'm making, so how are they gonna get one with a FAS course.

I often get comp-sci//computer forensics/IT general BSc's applying for work and they come in and some of them have never as much as picked up a network cable before and can't do as much as install a HDD.

I find it hard to beleive someone whos completed any IT degree has never played with network cables and doens't know how to install a hard drive.

Have you ever done a FAS course?
There is a lot of excellent FAS courses being offered these days where you will get out of them what you put into them.

I know people who have done them, the only one person I know who did a decent one was an electiricnas apprientichip course, the rest were pure bollox, and thats not me saying that, its them telling me.

Untill you can actually offer something tangible to an employer your masters/degree is basically toilet paper and most of the people holding them would require someone to help them wipe there behinds with it.

From what I've been told from one of my friends who did a computer course with FAS, a primary school child would know how to do half the stuff they were "teaching", and you certanly woudn't be picking up marketable skills with one. This is exemplified by the fact that nearly everyone from his course went staraght back on the dole after completing it rather than getting work.

reverandkenjami

c4cat wrote: »

Would this not be age discrimination????

It should be :mad:

Thankfully i'm still in employment at the moment but if i get let go, why after paying tax for 6 years should i get less than a guy who's a year older than me and never worked a day in his life!

Means test ftw!

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

If they were to go forward and do decent training as opposed to a FAS course, since the spin of this measure is that its to encourage people into training. I resent the implication that they are just sitting on their asses and need to be given a kick to do more training. I dont think half the Dail even have a degree.

Some people are sitting around doing nothing,I don't think people with degree's are sitting around more than people that don't. but both sides of the coin are at it.

You seem to have some chip on your shoulder about people with degree's and people who don't. a huge amount of degree's are worthless in real terms, it's a foot in the door and proves you can start something and finish it, but in most sector's it means nothing more. It's not like they're difficult to aquire.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Many people with degrees cannot get jobs, thats the point I'm making, so how are they gonna get one with a FAS course.

Depends on the degree and what they want to do, I can only talk about IT as that's what I know about, but if you come out of FAS with an MCSE you're worth more to me than someone who sat at home for 12 months

is that difficult to understand?

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I find it hard to beleive someone whos completed any IT degree has never played with network cables and doens't know how to install a hard drive.

I know, frightening.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I know people who have done them, the only one person I know who did a decent one was an electiricnas apprientichip course, the rest were pure bollox, and thats not me saying that, its them telling me.

Maybe you should try one and see for yourself?

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

From what I've been told from one of my friends who did a computer course with FAS, a primary school child would know how to do half the stuff they were "teaching", and you certanly woudn't be picking up marketable skills with one. This is exemplified by the fact that nearly everyone from his course went staraght back on the dole after completing it rather than getting work.

Maybe they didn't look at the spec of the course before hand? maybe it was an introudction to pc's?

Did they do an MCSE course? CCNA? etc etc?

looks like your "friend" didn't do their research, which they would have learned to do in college during their big degree.

BlueLepreachaun

reverandkenjami wrote: »

It should be :mad:

Thankfully i'm still in employment at the moment but if i get let go, why after paying tax for 6 years should i get less than a guy who's a year older than me and never worked a day in his life!

Means test ftw!

This happened to me I was livng in my own place in 2nd year and lost the job. I was barred from the dole because I was in college (despite my living independently) and despite having paid tax and PRSI and worked, since I was 16. Around the same time one of my friends who was on a FAS course was able to tell me about a guy on the course in his 40s who quite literally pissed his 200 euro down the toilet the week after getting it, then scabbed classmates for lunch money or asked for credit in the canteen on the Monday.
It's a perverse system. The rule that prevented me getting anything was that you have to be available for "full time work" ...why? I was available for part time work, so whats the diffrence? If I get a part time job I'm off the dole as much as I would be if I got a full time job.

BlueLepreachaun

You seem to have some chip on your shoulder about people with degree's and people who don't. a huge amount of degree's are worthless in real terms, it's a foot in the door and proves you can start something and finish it, but in most sector's it means nothing more. It's not like they're difficult to aquire.

As someone who is doing one I think they are difficult to aquire, depending on the course I suppose clearly some are harder to get than others. Theres no chip, I'm simply basing my knowlege of FAS courses on what I've seen in the media and heard from people who've done them.

I know, frightening.

..and not really plausable. There are indeed idiots in every sector who somehow manage to get degrees without knowing the basics, but I doubt this is a very common trend in IT.

Maybe you should try one and see for yourself?

I'm already in a course, and not on the dole, since I'm barred from it, nor could I afford to pay any fees for one outside being on the dole, and as far as I'm aware they dont teach anything in my area of study that I'm not learning already, or didn't do previously in earlier years.

Maybe they didn't look at the spec of the course before hand? maybe it was an introudction to pc's?

Did they do an MCSE course? CCNA? etc etc?

looks like your "friend" didn't do their research, which they would have learned to do in college during their big degree.

I can't recall the title of the course.
My friend didn't have a degree, but the problem was they shoved a load of people of diffrent ages and levels of computer skills into the same room, so they clearly had to start at the basics,though they never seemed to graduate to anything espechally complicated.
They were also much of the time simply left to themselevs to do whatever, with no specific direction whatsoever.

Everything I heard about it, I've never heard of a school, college, IT or whatever run in such a slopy and half arsed way.

nesf

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Isn't it amazing how we absoloutly cannot borrow for a stimulas package because our credit ratings so bad yet we can borrow unknown billions for NAMA, can (supposidly) borrow €500m a week for current spending, we radided the pension reserve fund to give AIB and Bank of Ireland €8billion in welfare...but we just CANNOT afford a stimulas plan or an extra 20quid a week for people under 23!! WE JUST CANT...its very mysterious to me.

Because the international markets will give us money to prop up banks that they wouldn't give to pay for dole payments. You may not like this but it's how the world works. It's similar to a bank being willing to give you a loan to buy a car but not willing to give you the same same money to spend on going out to the pub for a year.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

As someone who is doing one I think they are difficult to aquire, depending on the course I suppose clearly some are harder to get than others. Theres no chip, I'm simply basing my knowlege of FAS courses on what I've seen in the media and heard from people who've done them.

why comment on the lack of graduates in the dail?

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

..and not really plausable. There are indeed idiots in every sector who somehow manage to get degrees without knowing the basics, but I doubt this is a very common trend in IT.

In my exprience IT graduates with a genuine interest in IT who go out of their way to learn outside of what they were forced to learn a few and far between. Also a lot of what's been thought on IT related courses is pretty outdated. So for example throwing a java programmer out of a comp sci course unless he/she took it upon themselves to learn and keep up with current techniques as well as what was required on the course day 1 will be useless to most companys. A web designer with skills that are not used anymore etc etc, if anything out of college they tend to have more bad habits than good.

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

I can't recall the title of the course.
My friend didn't have a degree, but the problem was they shoved a load of people of diffrent ages and levels of computer skills into the same room, so they clearly had to start at the basics,though they never seemed to graduate to anything espechally complicated.
They were also much of the time simply left to themselevs to do whatever, with no specific direction whatsoever.

Everything I heard about it, I've never heard of a school, college, IT or whatever run in such a slopy and half arsed way.

If you take on for example a post grad in IT, what mix will you get on the course? different ages? check. Different levels of technical skill? check. where will they start? the basics. check. have to take responbility for your own learning? check lecturer's with poor teaching skills? check? lecturer's with no real world expirience? check that's every college university in the country

Some people have this strange idea that college's are these well oiled machines. a lot of them are a shambles, a lot of the lecturer's are awful.

FAS can have the same.

Anyway this is not if one is better than the other, I'm suggesting that degree or no degree adding to your skills if there's a FAS course that does that being around people with varying knowledge and life skills and ages, you might learn something you wont learn in a book.

ntlbell

nesf wrote: »

It's similar to a bank being willing to give you a loan to buy a car but not willing to give you the same same money to spend on going out to the pub for a year.

loan for the pub, isn't that called a "home improvment" loan?

My opinion on this is still the same as i was in the "Halve dole for under 24s" thread. It should be a chosen percentage and should be applied across the board to everyone.

Hitting everyone will mean it all evens out after a while. Picking on an age group just puts them at a disadvantage.


Seen as the thread has moved on from there to 'upskilling' or education, though;

I'm currently mooching my way through FAS Courses. I have very little (none?) computer knowledge and did a three month "Starting With Computers" course. It was a laugh, but I didn't really learn all that much. It seemed to have been aimed at people who had literally never sat at a computer before.

After that I did ECDL, which i thought was great, and I definitely learned something from it. Had never opened or looked at Microsoft Access or PowerPoint before the course, let alone had any idea how to use them.

That course finished about three weeks ago, and tomorrow I start "Introduction to Digital Film Making". That's another three month course and then I'm at a loose end until i see what other computer orientated courses appear. I have no Leaving Cert, so im pretty poorly educated in that area, so I'd rather spend time doing "joker" FAS courses and learning something, even if it might not be of much use to me overall.

BlueLepreachaun

ntlbell wrote: »

why comment on the lack of graduates in the dail?



In my exprience IT graduates with a genuine interest in IT who go out of their way to learn outside of what they were forced to learn a few and far between. Also a lot of what's been thought on IT related courses is pretty outdated. So for example throwing a java programmer out of a comp sci course unless he/she took it upon themselves to learn and keep up with current techniques as well as what was required on the course day 1 will be useless to most companys. A web designer with skills that are not used anymore etc etc, if anything out of college they tend to have more bad habits than good.








If you take on for example a post grad in IT, what mix will you get on the course? different ages? check. Different levels of technical skill? check. where will they start? the basics. check. have to take responbility for your own learning? check lecturer's with poor teaching skills? check? lecturer's with no real world expirience? check that's every college university in the country

Some people have this strange idea that college's are these well oiled machines. a lot of them are a shambles, a lot of the lecturer's are awful.

FAS can have the same.

Anyway this is not if one is better than the other, I'm suggesting that degree or no degree adding to your skills if there's a FAS course that does that being around people with varying knowledge and life skills and ages, you might learn something you wont learn in a book.

There are prerequesits for college courses, for example they wont let you into medicine without a certain grade in higher level chemsitry in the leaving cert. They require a certain basic level of knowledge.
Sure there are peple in arts and humanaties courses who would have diffrent levels of knowldge but when your talking about a practical hands on subject like IT having people who dont know what windows is in the same room as people who can make spreadsheets is stupid.

But were getting very very off topic here....this is about the dole not FAS...

Deleted User wrote: »

My opinion on this is still the same as i was in the "Halve dole for under 24s" thread. It should be a chosen percentage and should be applied across the board to everyone.

Hitting everyone will mean it all evens out after a while. Picking on an age group just puts them at a disadvantage.


Seen as the thread has moved on from there to 'upskilling' or education, though;

I'm currently mooching my way through FAS Courses. I have very little (none?) computer knowledge and did a three month "Starting With Computers" course. It was a laugh, but I didn't really learn all that much. It seemed to have been aimed at people who had literally never sat at a computer before.

After that I did ECDL, which i thought was great, and I definitely learned something from it. Had never opened or looked at Microsoft Access or PowerPoint before the course, let alone had any idea how to use them.

That course finished about three weeks ago, and tomorrow I start "Introduction to Digital Film Making". That's another three month course and then I'm at a loose end until i see what other computer orientated courses appear. I have no Leaving Cert, so im pretty poorly educated in that area, so I'd rather spend time doing "joker" FAS courses and learning something, even if it might not be of much use to me overall.

It would be better to learn something substantial you could actually use.
and there in lies the problem, not long ago at least 50% of people on the dole had no leaving cert, now you'd think they'd do an adult leaving cert (or leaving cert applied) course with people and get them to that level at least instead of messing around with this other stuff, with a leaving cert they could do a real cert, diploma degree etc instead of these blurry fuzzy courses that dont quite teach you anything substantial.

Because the international markets will give us money to prop up banks that they wouldn't give to pay for dole payments.

(BUZZ) Wrong answer!
The money were borrowing every week is for, among other things, dole payments since social welfare is the biggest proportion of our budget right now and its the exploding numbers of unemployed creating the fiscal emergency to begin with (combined with a collapse in tax revenue from VAT..which they're makign worse with constant talk of cuts..and property taxes).

What I was suggesting was borrowing for a stimulas package, and the "International markets" will indeed give you money for that, in fact they gave the US nearly a trillion dollars for just that purpose, even though about 40% of Obamas stimulas plan was tax cuts, they actually lent him money so he could give current tax cuts...insanity, but they did it.
The only two European countries to come out of recession so far, France and Germany, both had large stimulas packages, but all the Irish govt do is cut cut cut cut and pray the global economy turns around someday and we benefit from it by proxy.

You may not like this but it's how the world works. It's similar to a bank being willing to give you a loan to buy a car but not willing to give you the same same money to spend on going out to the pub for a year.

That analogy doen'st work, not even a little bit.
Firstly, dole money is, contrary to myth, mostly spent on food and untilities bills not drink*
*with most people on it that is

Secondly, the excessive lending of banks to people who shouldn't have been getting loans was a major MAJOR factor in creating the bubble which burst and caused this crises, everyone was "pre approved" for a credit card, holiday loans for Dubai were dime a dozen, they'd even give Joe who worked as a Woodies manager a few 100,000 to buy investment properties. This bubble combined with a wild, drunken, rampent orgy of speculation and gambling to produce the mess were in.
So dont' go portraying the banks as these careful cautious cats trying to keep the plebs who want loads of free money in line.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

There are prerequesits for college courses, for example they wont let you into medicine without a certain grade in higher level chemsitry in the leaving cert. They require a certain basic level of knowledge.
Sure there are peple in arts and humanaties courses who would have diffrent levels of knowldge but when your talking about a practical hands on subject like IT having people who dont know what windows is in the same room as people who can make spreadsheets is stupid.

There is no pre-requesits for post grad IT in relation to your IT knoweledge

so you can have people with zero expirience who don't know what an excel sheet in the same roos as people with years of expirience in IT

this happens in college's all over ireland.

stupid or not it happens. not just in FAS, this is the point i'm making.

so in certain disciplines college's do the exact same thing as FAS.

.................

BlueLepreachaun

Univerity and IT students aren't paid €200+ a week to do it, and a degree is more useful in most fields than a cert, no matter what it's in, you can learn how to install a HDD drive in a few minutes, the theory takes far longer to grasp.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

It would be better to learn something substantial you could actually use.
and there in lies the problem, not long ago at least 50% of people on the dole had no leaving cert, now you'd think they'd do an adult leaving cert (or leaving cert applied) course with people and get them to that level at least instead of messing around with this other stuff, with a leaving cert they could do a real cert, diploma degree etc instead of these blurry fuzzy courses that dont quite teach you anything substantial.

In your opinion, it's not for you to decide what is better to one person than an other.

You can do your leaving cert/Junior cert it's just ran by a different group.

in my opinion a leaving cert doesn't teach you anything useful, it's all fluff.

where a "PC repair" course teaches you a practical skill you can actually use to get a job and start to a career path where you can go on to do other industry standard certs.

maybe people don't do well in an accademic enviroment where they might shine in a more practical one.

that's not for you to decide, you seem to have a serious hang up on certs.

skills are what make you valuable, not the fact you can read a poxy book wrote learn it and re-cite it.

ntlbell

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

Univerity and IT students aren't paid €200+ a week to do it, and a degree is more useful in most fields than a cert, no matter what it's in, you can learn how to install a HDD drive in a few minutes, the theory takes far longer to grasp.

What has the fact their paid to do it?

I would prefer my taxes paid for someone to learn a skill than to sit at home watching jeramy kyle?

as I said most degree's are not worth a toss. once you enter the "real" world you end up using very little if anything of what you actually learned.

the skills you learn and thought while working is what makes you valuable.

the fact you read a book and answered a few questions on it is not very valuable you proved you could do that the day you did your junior cert.

christ.

irish_bob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The old age pension too generous?? Are you for real, try living on it.

free electricity , free phone , free travel , fuel allowance , living alone allowance if your a widow or a widower , medica card , add to this a 232 weekly cheque and it adds up to a pretty generous package , more than double the uk rate and considering pensioners are the lest indebted social group with a more or less predictable week to week expense sheet , they do very well

nesf

BlueLepreachaun wrote: »

(BUZZ) Wrong answer!
The money were borrowing every week is for, among other things, dole payments since social welfare is the biggest proportion of our budget right now and its the exploding numbers of unemployed creating the fiscal emergency to begin with (combined with a collapse in tax revenue from VAT..which they're makign worse with constant talk of cuts..and property taxes).

Yeah and your point was that we could spend money on banks and not on stimulus and I gave you an answer. As is we're only getting money for current spending with the agreement that we'll reduce Government spending.

gaeilgegrinds

Jobs or training programmes for under 25s or no dole, should get rid of some of the long-term on the dole. Many see it as a lifestyle. I also welcome a type of dole that takes into account those who worked hard in the past.

rushnaldo

I get 204 euro a week. I live at home and pay nothing for rent or food. I drink 100 euro on saturday night and the rest on super sundays... great country

brendansmith

rushnaldo wrote: »

I get 204 euro a week. I live at home and pay nothing for rent or food. I drink 100 euro on saturday night and the rest on super sundays... great country

Mocking is catching. Lets hope it lasts forever ay?

Wagon

reverandkenjami wrote: »

It should be :mad:

Thankfully i'm still in employment at the moment but if i get let go, why after paying tax for 6 years should i get less than a guy who's a year older than me and never worked a day in his life!

Means test ftw!

Yeah i agree with you. I mean if someone is getting the whole 204 euro it means they worked up enough stamps in the first place to get it! so its hardly the case that people who are young and on the dole are lazy.

anyone over the age of 23 wont care and say its a good idea becuase they arent being effected by it. i dont mind taking a 20% reduction myself if it means that its the only reduction we'll be expected to take. if the government change their minds in the future and decide a 50% cut for the under 23s is the only option rather than taking a small amount from everyone, then ill be pissed off. I mean if you have enough stamps, you're entitled to your dole! thats what its there for!

Viktor

ntlbell wrote: »

What has the fact their paid to do it?

I would prefer my taxes paid for someone to learn a skill than to sit at home watching jeramy kyle?

as I said most degree's are not worth a toss. once you enter the "real" world you end up using very little if anything of what you actually learned.

the skills you learn and thought while working is what makes you valuable.

the fact you read a book and answered a few questions on it is not very valuable you proved you could do that the day you did your junior cert.

christ.

I agree that degrees are useless, I had 2, could never get a job(Self Employed now), but FAS courses are a million time more useless too. They're unbelievably beginner level stuff, With a degree in computer science and in software development they wanted me to do a course in basic html, just to fill up their numbers to get more money from the government. These bureaucratic agencies piss away a hundred times more money than the small number of NEETs, and are exactly what we DONT need right now.

EnigmasWhisper

irish_bob wrote: »

while the old age pension should be cut too as its far too generous when you add on the other perks , i dont blame any goverment for excluding this most important voter demographic , some sacred cows cannot be ignored

Are you having a laugh ? Its the lowest in Europe...you try living on it. I genuinely believe people get ridiculous here just to seek attention and merely seem controversial

rushnaldo

Still not sure why people are giving FAS such a hard time. They're a great bunch, especially now. I did two courses with them this year so far (as I've already said) and on both courses there were guys in their 40s and 50s who were formerly builders (or associated with building in some form or another) so they were obviously happy to go out and learn something else.


Although my opinion is obviously going to be fairly Biased, as I'm currently relying on FAS to learn some stuff.

The reason I do not have a Leaving Cert is because I can't justify spending two years of my life learning about Geography, Spanish, Chemistry or any of that other stuff that I will have absolutely no use for in my real life.


Though in saying that, I have considered doing it just to get it out of the way, so i can try my hand at proper learning afterward.

rushnaldo wrote: »

I get 204 euro a week. I live at home and pay nothing for rent or food. I drink 100 euro on saturday night and the rest on super sundays... great country

Well in fairness, everything is great if you're gonna leech off other people the whole time. Pay nothing towards rent or food? And you don't feel a bit crap about not paying anything toward that?

Unless your parents are worth a fortune (which I doubt, if you're entitled to Dole) then you're an incredibly selfish person.


Fair enough, I realise that in the "current economic climate", it's a case of, as Del Boy once said, "Pull the ladder up Jack, and sod the rest", but i think you should be trying to help your parents out nonetheless!

The_Honeybadger

rushnaldo wrote: »

I get 204 euro a week. I live at home and pay nothing for rent or food. I drink 100 euro on saturday night and the rest on super sundays... great country

I presume you are posting this for a laugh but I actually know people in this position who saved their dole to go travelling. Stay at home with mom and dad maybe work a few nixers if possible and off to Thailand or Oz once they've enough in the bank. Of course it'd be very hard to cut this out as it is impossible to know who needs it or not but what a good use for public money!

Niall Keane

Isn’t this just to incentivise / kick start mass emigration?

Of course for those that stay and are willing to work for less and be more productive, it will mean older family guys being replaced by them? Emigration solves the dole problem and a young wage slave workforce the competitive problems. This only effects under 23’s? Wake up people! Remember what happened in France a few years ago and the public reaction? See the French can see around corners, they’re just not as myopic as dumb Irish peasants!

Pedro K

What a joke. I was reading this in the paper today.

Why under 23s? There are plenty of people out there over this age who've not paid half as much stamps as I (or many other people under the age of 23) have.

This government are just screwing the younger generation.

:mad:

God damnit. I'm too angry to even read this whole thread or string together a coherent post. I'm pissed off right now.

The_Honeybadger

Pedro K wrote: »

What a joke. I was reading this in the paper today.

Why under 23s? There are plenty of people out there over this age who've not paid half as much stamps as I (or many other people under the age of 23) have.

This government are just screwing the younger generation.

:mad:

God damnit. I'm too angry to even read this whole thread or string together a coherent post. I'm pissed off right now.

It is because statistically you are less likely to vote in the next GE.

Pedro K

mickeyk wrote: »

It is because statistically you are less likely to vote in the next GE.

Aye. It seems increasingly likely that this is the case.

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

free electricity , free phone , free travel , fuel allowance , living alone allowance if your a widow or a widower , medica card , add to this a 232 weekly cheque and it adds up to a pretty generous package , more than double the uk rate and considering pensioners are the lest indebted social group with a more or less predictable week to week expense sheet , they do very well

Why do insist on constantly quoting UK figures for comparison. We dont live in the UK and have a very different cost base so the figures are not comparable.

Its not about sacred cows or the fact they vote in larger numbers than other demographics, its the fact that most people are concerned for the day they retire and may become reliant on the state. Alot of people also have parents and Grandparents we wouldnt like to see have their benefits reduced. We look after our old people in this country and I hope and pray that this never changes.

Sephiroth_dude

Will this affect people aged 23 and under or only people under the age of 23?

irish_bob

EnigmasWhisper wrote: »

Are you having a laugh ? Its the lowest in Europe...you try living on it. I genuinely believe people get ridiculous here just to seek attention and merely seem controversial

lowest in europe @?????????? , go back to sleep

irish_bob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Why do insist on constantly quoting UK figures for comparison. We dont live in the UK and have a very different cost base so the figures are not comparable.

Its not about sacred cows or the fact they vote in larger numbers than other demographics, its the fact that most people are concerned for the day they retire and may become reliant on the state. Alot of people also have parents and Grandparents we wouldnt like to see have their benefits reduced. We look after our old people in this country and I hope and pray that this never changes.

looking after our elders is fine , spoiling them at the expense of everyone else is not , personally i thinks its disgusting that a retired pensioner with a 699 euro a week pension can visit thier GP for free while a young couple in thier thirties ( mortgaged up to thier necks ) with a few kids have to fork out 50 quid every time they visit the doctor , old peoples budget rarely changes , young peoples budget is always changing

Taxipete29

irish_bob wrote: »

looking after our elders is fine , spoiling them at the expense of everyone else is not , personally i thinks its disgusting that a retired pensioner with a 699 euro a week pension can visit thier GP for free while a young couple in thier thirties ( mortgaged up to thier necks ) with a few kids have to fork out 50 quid every time they visit the doctor , old peoples budget rarely changes , young peoples budget is always changing

How is it at the expense of everyone else?? So we should drive pensioners into poverty so we dont have to raise the tax rates for people who earn huge salaries and can well afford it. Great plan.:rolleyes:

Many of these pensioners have paid larger %s of their former salaries in tax than you or I are ever likely to. They deserve to be taken care of and if you think they are spoiled you can look forward to your retirement safe in the knowledge that you will be well looked after.;)