Denman or Kauto Star

Rio 2016

Who would you side with?

My opinion is that Denman at his very best is untouchable and he proved that yesterday. What A Friend in receipt of 22lb, was primed for the day and came their to win the race but when the two stablemates locked horns, Denman broke his heart as well as those of the rest of the field.

Factor in the fact that he lost 3 or 4 lengths at the start and the fact that a horse as big as Denman will undoubtabely be better with a run under his belt, I can't see Kauto Star being able to topple Denmans colours around Cheltenham.

deccy15

Rio 2016 wrote: »

Who would you side with?

My opinion is that Denman at his very best is untouchable and he proved that yesterday. What A Friend in receipt of 22lb, was primed for the day and came their to win the race but when the two stablemates locked horns, Denman broke his heart as well as those of the rest of the field.

Factor in the fact that he lost 3 or 4 lengths at the start and the fact that a horse as big as Denman will undoubtabely be better with a run under his belt, I can't see Kauto Star being able to topple Denmans colours around Cheltenham.

Denman for me.........

I agree with you that denman should come on a bit for the race! He is possibly the best jumper of a fence around the moment and with the pace he runs at he will put kauto's jumpin (not the best under pressure imo) to the test!!!

corny

deccy15 wrote: »

Denman for me.........

I agree with you that denman should come on a bit for the race! He is possibly the best jumper of a fence around the moment and with the pace he runs at he will put kauto's jumpin (not the best under pressure imo) to the test!!!

Denman for me too. It really is amazing how much he stands off his fences when asked for a big one. Takes lengths out of the field.

For all KS's class and guts Denman will grind him into the ground, especially if its anyway soft. Sure there wasn't a bother on him in the parade ring after yesterdays race.

fr wishy washy

Sound surface Kauto Star-easy surface Denman.

mdwexford

They've never ran against each other with both in top form but Kauto has put in more top drawer performances over his career than Denman, i just hope both get there at the peak of their powers this year and we can see what happens.

Colonel Sanders

mdwexford wrote: »

They've never ran against each other with both in top form but Kauto has put in more top drawer performances over his career than Denman, i just hope both get there at the peak of their powers this year and we can see what happens.

I agree 100% with this

Anyone who reckons Kauto was at is his best when beaten by Denman in 2008 is living in dreamland IMO

Denman's performance yesterday was awesome and shows he's back, but I think Kauto is the best chaser I have ever seen in my limited years following racing and as far as I know is rated the best since at least Desert Orchid (maybe even further back than this)

If the ground was testing and Denman turned the race into a slog he may well come out on top

My personal opinion is that Kauto is still the better horse but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Denman came out on top in March

Already looking forward to it!

OP any chance of adding a poll?

Colonel Sanders

Was just reading the Betfair forum. Plenty of debate over the following Nick Mordin article:

Following the Betfair Chase I now know how everyone in Ireland must have felt after Thierry Henry handballed his team's way to victory over the Irish side last week. I made IMPERIAL COMMANDER (45) one of my best bets of the whole year and was devastated when the photo went to Kauto Star.

One reason I was so confident of Imperial Commander is that I was convinced I and many others had tagged him wrongly as a non-stayer.

It was certainly very easy to jump to the conclusion that Imperial Commander didn't stay. After all he'd won seven of the eight times he'd gone less than three miles before the Betfair Chase and lost all six times he's been asked to go three miles plus.

However things didn't look anything like as clear cut when you took a closer look at Imperial Commander.

Watching the video of his win in the Ryanair Chase at the Cheltenham Festival I saw that Imperial Commander took on the very speedy front runner Our Vic and ran him into the ground after less than two miles. He then continued powering away on his own up front and clearly outstayed all his rivals up the stiff finishing hill on yielding ground on one of the stiffest tracks in the country.

Then there was Imperial Commander's physique. He's a tall, very deep chested, long striding sort that looked like a three miler running against two and two and a half milers at Cheltenham. It certainly looked like his jockey rode him to exploit his superior stamina that day.

There were several other things that persuaded me Imperial Commander would stay three miles - and more.

The first was the insistence of his jockey and trainer. The seconds was his pedigree. His three siblings, including his full sister, all won point to points over three miles.

So why had Imperial Commander no wins to his name over longer trips? I'm pretty sure I now know the answer.

I strongly suspect that Imperial Commander flopped at three miles before the Betfair Chase because he'd never been fresh enough to run well at the distance. He'd won all six times he'd come into a race off a break of seven weeks or more but scored just once from eight tries when returned to the races more quickly - as he had for all his three mile efforts.

The field that Imperial Commander beat in the Ryanair was brilliant. So with reasonable doubts existing about Kauto Star I thought he was a fantastic bet at around 10-1.

The race was pretty much a carbon copy of the Ryanair. But this time the front runner that Imperial Commander pressed early wasn't Our Vic, it was another David Pipe inmate Madison Du Berlais. As was the case at Cheltenham, Imperial Commander had the front runner beat with a mile to run and kicked on. He was kicked on into the lead at this point by jockey Paddy Brennan who stole a quick peak back at his rivals and must have liked what he saw.

Ruby Walsh on Kauto Star was clearly getting a bit anxious at this stage and moved his mount up quickly into second, stealing a look of his own back at the other horses as he did so.

Entering the straight it was clear that Imperial Commander was going to take some catching. He was two or three lengths clear and not stopping. But a slow jump two out allowed Kauto Star to catch up, head him narrowly and then forge on two lengths clear. You could see Brennan had a fair bit of horse left under him though, so it wasn't surprising he was able to stage a rally and get back in front just before the line. Unfortunately his head was up and his rivals down as they crossed the line. As a result Kauto Star got the decision.

Make no mistake, this was a huge performance by Imperial Commander, one of the best we've seen over jumps in years. It took a top performance by the very best chaser in the last decade and a lucky head bob to beat him by the narrowest of margins. He had the rest of a high class field 24 lengths and more behind.

The big question now is whether Imperial Commander can reproduce this form in the King George.

If my theory about him needing seven weeks between his runs is correct then the answer has to be 'no' as there's only five weeks between the Betfair Chase and the King George. However most horses that need to be fresh are good for their first two runs of the season, however close together they are. Thereafter they tend to need a break of five weeks, quite often six, but almost never seven or more to run well again.

So why did Imperial Commander run so dreadfully in last year's King George? It was only his second run of the season and came 41 days after the first.

I think there may well be several explanations. One I'm inclined towards is that Imperial Commander is too bit, tall and long striding to handle a tight course like Kempton (he ran below form around the only other tight track he's tried - Aintree).

Trainer Nigel Twiston-Davies believes that the answer may be Imperial Commander dislikes right-handed tracks. It's a good theory because Imperial Commander ran another clunker the only other time he was asked to go right handed. And this was after a 48 day break at last year's Punchestown Festival.

At this stage it's tough to give a definitive answer as Imperial Commander has run a couple of poor races on left handed tracks too when he's been pretty fresh. And he's never shown a sign of jumping to his right like most horse that prefer going that way do.

If he were mine I'd forget about the King George and shoot for the Lexus Chase instead at left-handed Leopardstown. If he ran a clunker there then we'd at least know for sure it's because he wasn't fresh enough rather than it being due to a dislike of going right-handed. Thereafter I'd lay him off all the way to the Cheltenham Gold Cup. That is the perfect race for Imperial Commander because he's such a great big beast of a horse that showed here he can go a tremendous pace and keep going really strongly in testing conditions. The extended three and a quarter miles at Cheltenham should suit him perfectly.

The key to Imperial Commander is clearly the spacing of his races. This is far from unusual with the best chasers these days. Seven of the last fourteen Cheltenham Gold Cup winners were off for 77 days or more before winning the big race. Another three had a break of 47 days plus.

Imperial Commander's part owner replies with the following:

Personally I think there is a lot of sense in the article - I have long had the thought that it is a stamp that Flemensfirth puts on all his best progeny. Indeed he himself was best fresh.

But Imperial is a case in himself, he has had his share of physical problems which have contributed to the variation in his previous performances.5 weeks - 7 weeks who knows - what I do know is he is a much bigger and stronger horse this year.

The previous evidence is also flimsy as he was never a natural over hurdlles and had encountered problems during the season. His novice chase season stopped in the 3 miler at Cheltenham when his hock aand back problems finally came too a head. Last season he improved dramatically for his win in the Paddy Power and if the Boylesports had been run i am convinced he would have won it. By the time of the KG he was under the general stable cloud and never fired. He tired going up the hill in the Ryanair as we had had to abandon a racecourse gallop due to firm ground at Newbury and he was probably a little under cooked.

On the issue of ratings I have always believed that Kauto has never got the credit he deserved. It appears that there are a large number who wish to believe he is untouchable and any horse who gets close to him can only do so if he under performs. He is genuinely a horse without a hole, not only has he set the standard of performance but he has delivered that standard with incredible consistency - it is that which sets him apart, and that which makes him one of the best we have ever seen. Personally I believe the few blemishes on his record are explained by changes in the way the horse has been campaigned. The 2008 Betfair Bowl was IMHO the result of the trainer trying to leave plenty to work on as he believed he only had to beat trees and the run could simply be used as a stepping stone to the King George. Certainly he looked a different horse this year to the burly model I saw there in 2008. I believe his defeat to Monets Garden was the result of a similar trainer error. The defeat at Aintree in 2008 was the scar of one of the most brutal gold cups of any era - a race which flattened Denman. With those exceptions his performances have been remarkably consistent, and of the highest order. It is that consistency and the ability to outgun horses producing lifetime best performances that makes him truly exceptional - a one off.

Where I differ is that I think it is important to look at what the form tells us - not what his trainer says everytime a horse lays a hoof on him.

The race on Saturday probably was probably difficult for Phil Smith to rate, but in reality provides few practical problems. Imperial is not going to be rushing anywhere to try out his new handicap mark of 174, unless of course Mr Nicholls wants to enter Kauto off 186 and give us 12lbs ! The ratings he has given Kauto in the past would suggest he is broadly in agreement with my assumptions that Kauto is a model of consistency.

The race was run at a good pace - the first sign I would look for is how quickly the lowest rated horses started to struggle. In this case Seymour Weld (Rated 134) and Rambling Minster (Rated 149) who are decent horses in their own right were struggling after completion of the first circuit. By the middle of the back straight the alarm signals were out on three 160+ rated horses. In the end they finshed 24 lengths ahead of some very good horses.
The third and fourth horses were only seperated by a length and were kept fully extended all the way to the line.

To add to the visual evidence the time was 10 seconds quicker than the C&D handicap won by Shining Gale, rated 145 and considered well in off that mark by his trainer.

So the form would appear to have a very solid look, unless the form of the C&D handicap proves to have holes in it, and all of the horses in the Betfair other than the first two massively under performed it is difficult to see the holes. On previous ratings that would not appear to be the case - Madison De Berlais rated 17lbs lower than Kauto beaten 24 lengths, Halcon Genelardis rated 25lbs lower than Kauto beaten 25 lengths.

IMHO if as his trainer asserts Kauto improves dramtically for the run then his next run will have Phil Smith awarding him his highest mark ever.

The issue for Imperial is not whether he can produce that level of performance again, I have always known he was capable of it - but whether he can do it consistently, and I confess I have major doubts that he can. Add to that the gap of 5 weeks, the fact that RH does not particularly suit him and it is difficult to get enthusuastic about the King George. The important thing about the timing of the Lexus and the King George fit the bill - as we get a clear 12 weeks to prepare for Cheltenham. If for any reason we don't run in either it won't be the end of the world, but he likes to race, is still learning and improving and has only had eight races over fences. he should really still be a novice.

Thread is on the Antepost forum and the title is "Bobby dazzler......". Well worth reading the entire thread

seany2929

Kauto Star for me

sneem-man

corny wrote: »

Denman for me too. It really is amazing how much he stands off his fences when asked for a big one. Takes lengths out of the field.

For all KS's class and guts Denman will grind him into the ground, especially if its anyway soft. Sure there wasn't a bother on him in the parade ring after yesterdays race.

Thought the same myself...

Nulty

Unfortunately, my first bet on Irish/English racing was on Denman in last years CGC. Also I loved the idea of a horse being equated to a tank. I haven't seen him run to his best until saturday but still thought it was silly to back him.

Kauto took my money on my first punt and so doesn't have my support.

+1 on the ground differences.

I think the "Denman -v- Kauto" question has two levels -

• Which is the best horse
• Which horse do you like the most

Denman in both for me

mdwexford

Nulty wrote: »

Unfortunately, my first bet on Irish/English racing was on Denman in last years CGC. Also I loved the idea of a horse being equated to a tank. I haven't seen him run to his best until saturday but still thought it was silly to back him.

Kauto took my money on my first punt and so doesn't have my support.

+1 on the ground differences.

I think the "Denman -v- Kauto" question has two levels -

• Which is the best horse
• Which horse do you like the most

Denman in both for me

Your logic is pretty flawed, backing horses because you like or dislike them is a quick way to the poor house unless you're backing just for an interest and a bit of fun in which case go for it i guess.

Colonel Sanders

FYI just checked the Ryanair website and Flights all Cheltenham week are pretty cheap, with the exception being to come home Friday night

Wasn't gonna bother going (I prefer going in November these days and watching the festival in the comfort of my home) but might go over Friday morning now and come back Saturday

wb

I see Timeform have rated Denman at 181. That's a career best which makes this extremely exciting. Might try get over for it myself if they are both likely to line up.

podsieboy

denman of course hes irish haha

RichieLawlor

mdwexford wrote: »

They've never ran against each other with both in top form but Kauto has put in more top drawer performances over his career than Denman, i just hope both get there at the peak of their powers this year and we can see what happens.

Kauto Stat has also thrown in a lot of bad performances, the same can't be said of Denman, perhaps on the levy board chase where Madison de Berlais beat him was his only really bad run and there were excuses. Other than that Denman has been more consistant.

And as for KS not being at his best in Denmans Gold cup it was because Like Harry Finlay said, Denman took KS out if his comfort zone, put him under pressure and ground him into submission. He was smashed by a better horse and even last year Kauto Star doesn't win near as easily if at all if they let Denman kick on. Denman has beaten a tip top Kauto Star, Kauto Star cannot beat a tip top Denman.

careca

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Kauto Stat has also thrown in a lot of bad performances, the same can't be said of Denman, perhaps on the levy board chase where Madison de Berlais beat him was his only really bad run and there were excuses. Other than that Denman has been more consistant.

And as for KS not being at his best in Denmans Gold cup it was because Like Harry Finlay said, Denman took KS out if his comfort zone, put him under pressure and ground him into submission. He was smashed by a better horse and even last year Kauto Star doesn't win near as easily if at all if they let Denman kick on. Denman has beaten a tip top Kauto Star, Kauto Star cannot beat a tip top Denman.

I just finished Nicholls book (decent enough read, doesn't pull any punches) and he would disagree with this. He reckons in 2008 he gave KS one run too many before the GC and wouldn't make the same mistake again. He doesn't directly come out and say it but there is no doubt that he reckons KS is superior to Denman if they were both at their best.

He made a good call on Sat in Racing Post. Said he couldn't tell which one of his (what a friend or Denman) would win, so he suggested you backed both.

Colonel Sanders

careca wrote: »

I just finished Nicholls book (decent enough read, doesn't pull any punches) and he would disagree with this. He reckons in 2008 he gave KS one run too many before the GC and wouldn't make the same mistake again. He doesn't directly come out and say it but there is no doubt that he reckons KS is superior to Denman if they were both at their best.

He made a good call on Sat in Racing Post. Said he couldn't tell which one of his (what a friend or Denman) would win, so he suggested you backed both.

From comments he's made down the year's I have no doubt Nicholls rates Kauto superior. Also Ruby has ridden him the 2 times they've met and, IMO, will ride him again this year.

RichieLawlor

careca wrote: »

I just finished Nicholls book (decent enough read, doesn't pull any punches) and he would disagree with this. He reckons in 2008 he gave KS one run too many before the GC and wouldn't make the same mistake again. He doesn't directly come out and say it but there is no doubt that he reckons KS is superior to Denman if they were both at their best.

He made a good call on Sat in Racing Post. Said he couldn't tell which one of his (what a friend or Denman) would win, so he suggested you backed both.

I've read the book and Nicholls says he got the feeling that Denman would likely always outstay KS over the Gold Cup course and distance but put the race on somewhere like Kempton and the result would be different.

But there is no doubt KS is a classier horse, Denman could never win a Tingle Creek or even an Ascot chase bits it's Denmans brute strength and his running style that's makes him a superior staying chaser imo. I doubt KS could win a hennessy off top weight.

Leaving out last year when Denman was so obviously not all in it no horse has ever got past him when he has been allowed to bowl along in front and dictate. ( and before someone mentions Nicanor, go watch that race ) Denmans style of running puts horses under so much pressure. I personally make Denman a strong favourite for the 2010 Gold Cup

RichieLawlor

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

From comments he's made down the year's I have no doubt Nicholls rates Kauto superior. Also Ruby has ridden him the 2 times they've met and, IMO, will ride him again this year.

Moot point, Ruby will ride KS, how can he get off the defending champ. Even if he thinks Denman will will

premierstone

Agree with Richie absolutely no chance in hell that Ruby gets off Kauto the only question is whether Denamns connections are happy to let Sam Thomas take the ride or if either Alberta's Run or Barber Shop are swithced to the Ryanair they are tempted to put Barry Geraghty or Ap up.

Personally I think the prospect of these two beasts going head to head in full fitness is absolutely mouth watering but for some reason I have this nagging feeling that if Denman tries to put Kauto under pressure and gringd him into the ground that they cut in effect cut each others throat and set the race up nicely for something else, Imperial Commander perhaps or maybe even Cooldine.

But in all honesty gun to the head have to pick one I would side with Denamn for now.

mdwexford

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Kauto Stat has also thrown in a lot of bad performances, the same can't be said of Denman, perhaps on the levy board chase where Madison de Berlais beat him was his only really bad run and there were excuses. Other than that Denman has been more consistant.

And as for KS not being at his best in Denmans Gold cup it was because Like Harry Finlay said, Denman took KS out if his comfort zone, put him under pressure and ground him into submission. He was smashed by a better horse and even last year Kauto Star doesn't win near as easily if at all if they let Denman kick on. Denman has beaten a tip top Kauto Star, Kauto Star cannot beat a tip top Denman.

Sigh, what complete rubbish, for a start Kauto Star has had 9 more runs over fences than Denman.

Kauto has thrown in a lot of bad performances you say and Denman has been more consistent, Kauto has never been out of the top 2 apart from the twice he didnt complete in 22 races and has 12 Grade 1 wins, very inconsistent :rolleyes:

Kauto has put in 8 RPR's of 179 or higher, Denman has put in 3.
You are one of the only people who thought Kauto ran to his best in Denmans Gold Cup win, he clearly didnt jump or travel and not because Denman was going some insane pace which he wasnt btw, last years Gold Cup was quicker, Kauto just wasnt 100% that day for whatever reason.

corny

mdwexford wrote: »

Sigh, what complete rubbish, for a start Kauto Star has had 9 more runs over fences than Denman.

Kauto has thrown in a lot of bad performances you say and Denman has been more consistent, Kauto has never been out of the top 2 apart from the twice he didnt complete in 22 races and has 12 Grade 1 wins, very inconsistent :rolleyes:

Kauto has put in 8 RPR's of 179 or higher, Denman has put in 3.
You are one of the only people who thought Kauto ran to his best in Denmans Gold Cup win, he clearly didnt jump or travel and not because Denman was going some insane pace which he wasnt btw, last years Gold Cup was quicker, Kauto just wasnt 100% that day for whatever reason.

You make the point about how ultra consistent KS is in one paragraph and then in the next your prepared to believe his one (truly) poor performance in his 22 races had absolutely nothing to do with Denman. A leap of faith? Denman didn't go an insane gallop or do an ultra fast time but ask yourself this why did no other horse go with him? Mick Fitz who was on Neptune Collonges said he simply couldn't go with him when he strode on on the second circuit.

I keep an open mind about these 2 horses but i simply don't believe KS will ever run to 186 if Denman dictates from the front like he did in 08.

RichieLawlor

mdwexford wrote: »

Sigh, what complete rubbish, for a start Kauto Star has had 9 more runs over fences than Denman.

Kauto has thrown in a lot of bad performances you say and Denman has been more consistent, Kauto has never been out of the top 2 apart from the twice he didnt complete in 22 races and has 12 Grade 1 wins, very inconsistent :rolleyes:

Kauto has put in 8 RPR's of 179 or higher, Denman has put in 3.
You are one of the only people who thought Kauto ran to his best in Denmans Gold Cup win, he clearly didnt jump or travel and not because Denman was going some insane pace which he wasnt btw, last years Gold Cup was quicker, Kauto just wasnt 100% that day for whatever reason.

Take last year out when Denman was clearly only half fit and recovering from heart trouble and he's never been beaten, he does what he has too, just because he didn't need to post a 175+ rating to beat Mossbank in the lexus doesn't mean he couldn't, that's how it is. He does enough and always has, he can't do anymore than win.

Kauto Star has been beaten by such chasing luminaries as Monkerhostin, Our Vic and Monets Garden. Denman has never, not once thrown in a sub standard performance. Denman simply doesn't get beaten and runs as he needs to. I firmly believe if he needs to put in a 190+ performance to beat KS then that's exactly what he will do.

mdwexford

You think Kauto Star's second to Denman in the Gold Cup was a truly poor performance??

I certainly dont, he was second to the second best 3m chaser of the past 10+ years, no shame in that and certainly not when he wasnt at his best, imo of course.

Denman didnt hang around dont get me wrong but it wasnt the fastest run race of all time or anything like some people seem to think it was.

Denman wil put pressure on if you try and keep tabs on him and most horses break under it for sure but Kauto also has a tremendous crusing speed and is a super jumper when hes right.

Im obviously not 100% sure what will happen in the Gold Cup either btw but i dont think Denman will brush Kauto aside like 2008 if they are both on top form, it will be very close.

mdwexford

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Take last year out when Denman was clearly only half fit and recovering from heart trouble and he's never been beaten, he does what he has too, just because he didn't need to post a 175+ rating to beat Mossbank in the lexus doesn't mean he couldn't, that's how it is. He does enough and always has, he can't do anymore than win.

He was beaten by Madison Du Berlais at Kempton and he was beaten at Aintree when he fell also, no horse is unbeatable as you should know by now, they arent machines.
You are saying to take out half his chasing career practically.

He doesnt have too many Grade 1's on his resume due to running in the Hennesy, his Gold Cup is his only one where he beat top class horses due to Nicholls keeping the big two apart.

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Kauto Star has been beaten by such chasing luminaries as Monkerhostin, Our Vic and Monets Garden. Denman has never, not once thrown in a sub standard performance. Denman simply doesn't get beaten and runs as he needs to. I firmly believe if he needs to put in a 190+ performance to beat KS then that's exactly what he will do.

What are you trying to say here, that Kauto Star is not good or inconsistent?

You know he was beaten in 2 handicaps and when he was clearly over the top and those 3 horses are all very capable on their day.

Denman hasnt ran to the level Kauto has consistently or ran in the best races (because Nicholls had to keep them apart admittedly).

There is nothing to show he can run to that level, its total speculation.

Shan75

This is an argument you could have for years and years and we are all only expressing opinions but some people seem to take it personally if somebody claims KS is better than Denman or vice versa.Everybody needs to calm a little bit.They have faced each other twice in the GC with the result 1-1.People can go on if they wish that both had something wrong the times they were beaten but that really is fairly meaningless.You can only judge on the results and that means for now they are tied for the lead.You can also believe the handicapper as if he is infallible if you wish but there is no way for sure of judging perfectly one race against another even when taking into account collateral formlines because no 2 races are identical in make up and circumstance.For the same reason clock watching is not an accurate guage as some races start slowly and build to a crecendo and others start at lightning pace and end with horses falling over the line.

If I was to be pushed for an answer I would say that over 3M2f+ I'd always go for Denman but at a 3M distance, particularly on ground which is not soft or worse, I'd go for KS.Obviously short of 3M is KS all the way.On their opening runs of the year Denman's performance was mightier as he carried the weight to victory but whether it was better is open to question.There is no way,in my opinion, KS could have carried that weight and won the Hennessy but Denman is built for weight carrying while KS is built more for speed.Either way they are two outstanding horses and hopefully we will get the best of 3 decider at Cheltenham.

mdwexford

Shan75 wrote: »

There is no way,in my opinion, KS could have carried that weight and won the Hennessy but Denman is built for weight carrying while KS is built more for speed.

This is a crucial point which some people dont seem to take on board, Kauto Star isnt one for lumping huge weights in handicaps, Denman is bigger and stronger and thats right up his street. Hes a proper NH horse whereas Kauto is speedier and classier.

Hennesy for Denman and King George for Kauto are their ideal races.
Gold cup is kind of a middle ground for the two of them.

corny

mdwexford wrote: »

This is a crucial point which some people dont seem to take on board, Kauto Star isnt one for lumping huge weights in handicaps, Denman is bigger and stronger and thats right up his street. Hes a proper NH horse whereas Kauto is speedier and classier.

Hennesy for Denman and King George for Kauto are their ideal races.
Gold cup is kind of a middle ground for the two of them.

What you talking about? Thats just clichéd nonsense. Horses carry 11 stone 10 in graded company. Would you have us believe carrying an extra 2 pounds is "lumping huge weights in handicaps"?

If PN switched them or raced them against each other Denman would win the King George. I can't prove that but by the same token how can anyone say these are their ideal races when neither has tried the alternative?

Take exception to the classier bit too. Its an arbitrary term. I think winning a Hennessy of 174 against a rake of good unexposed second season chasers is the classiest thing i've seen in ages.

RichieLawlor

corny wrote: »

What you talking about? Thats just clichéd nonsense. Horses carry 11 stone 10 in graded company. Would you have us believe carrying an extra 2 pounds is "lumping huge weights in handicaps"?

If PN switched them or raced them against each other Denman would win the King George. I can't prove that but by the same token how can anyone say these are their ideal races when neither has tried the alternative?

Take exception to the classier bit too. Its an arbitrary term. I think winning a Hennessy of 174 against a rake of good unexposed second season chasers is the classiest thing i've seen in ages.

Your not making any sense here in your weight carrying argument.

Also Denman would have very little chance of beating KS over the king George course and distance imo, a flat right handed speed track would not be Denmans cup of tea

DenMan

Denman for me.

mdwexford

How is it cliched nonsense, look at Kauto's record in handicaps, not too great im sure you will agree. Its not about carrying 2 pounds extra, its about the mark hes on and the weight hes giving away. Kauto Star would not have won the Henessy on Saturday imo.

Also Denman wouldnt have a prayer vs KS in a King George imo. He'd probably beat the rest because hes so far clear of them.

You shouldnt take exception, its pretty obviously hes a classier animal.
Im not saying Deman isnt an amazing chaser, im just saying hes a slogger who gets it done and Kauto is more of a fancy dan.

cson

corny wrote: »

If PN switched them or raced them against each other Denman would win the King George. I can't prove that but by the same token how can anyone say these are their ideal races when neither has tried the alternative?

Ergo Paul Nicholls certainly believes they are the pairs ideal races - he wouldn't have entered them otherwise in addition to winning the aforementioned races with Denman and Kauto Star numerous times, no?

Rio 2016

Just my opinion, but I believe that Denman will win in March because he will be willing to push it to the absolute limit. Had KS been upsides him at the last in 08 he would still have pulled out more, despite the fact that he was absolutely flattened.

If you can try to get a video of Saturdays race head on and watch Denmans reaction when he is headed by What A Friend.

prettyboy81

Denman at 100% in March will run the field into submission, he is built to win a gold cup at a stamina testing pace....

Its very strange now especially with the weather to get good ground or better at Cheltenhem & this would be Kauto's only chance, Kauto is a class horse but Denman is the natural staying steeplechaser!!!!

Picture this come March, Ruby in the saddle on Kauto & AP McCoy gets the ride on Denman.....Where would you have your money????

I'm on Denman.......whats that coming over the hill is it a monster, is it a monster....no it's Denman!!!!!

Whyno

prettyboy81 wrote: »

Denman at 100% in March will run the field into submission, he is built to win a gold cup at a stamina testing pace....

Its very strange now especially with the weather to get good ground or better at Cheltenhem & this would be Kauto's only chance, Kauto is a class horse but Denman is the natural staying steeplechaser!!!!

Picture this come March, Ruby in the saddle on Kauto & AP McCoy gets the ride on Denman.....Where would you have your money????

I'm on Denman.......whats that coming over the hill is it a monster, is it a monster....no it's Denman!!!!!

Denman is bred to be a 2m4f chaser.....
There is surely now no doubts about Kautos stamina so providing the ground is good and no worse than good to soft come march Kauto star will beat denman.

finbarrk

Most Irishmen will want Denman anyway. Let's just hope they both turn up sound on the day. I was there this year for Kauto but I might change my colours next year.

careca

finbarrk wrote: »

Most Irishmen will want Denman anyway. Let's just hope they both turn up sound on the day. I was there this year for Kauto but I might change my colours next year.

Why because he was bred here? Bull****. If they made money from Denman all along they will want him, if they made money from Kauto they will want him. Most talk through their pockets and whatever about being trained in Ireland, being bred here makes absolutely no difference, imo.

Rio 2016

Whyno wrote: »

Denman is bred to be a 2m4f chaser.....
There is surely now no doubts about Kautos stamina so providing the ground is good and no worse than good to soft come march Kauto star will beat denman.

you can leave breeding aside by now, as there is more than enough evidence to prove that there isn't a horse past or present that has the same level of endurance that Denman has.

Morgans

Rio 2016 wrote: »

you can leave breeding aside by now, as there is more than enough evidence to prove that there isn't a horse past or present that has the same level of endurance that Denman has.

Ah jesus. That cant be let go. Go on, where is the evidence. No horse past or present....jesus.

The whole flaw in the Denman running Kauto Star into submission in the Gold Cup, was the fact that Neptune Collonges led them for a the first mile and a half, not Denman. Kauto Star had already made mistakes and was clearly uncomfortable and not travelling at the pace set by Neptune Collonges, not Denman. This is Kauto Star who won two tingle creeks over 2m. No-one in the field, even Denman should be able to get Kauto Star off the bridle so early with his natural speed. But again, it was evident that things werent right with Kauto Star when the pace was being set by Neptune Collonges, not Denman. Now, eventhough somethign was definitely not right about him that day, he would have got away with it, only that he had a serious top class animal in Denman to beat.

Denman was absolutely legless from the last two home, to the extent that Kauto Star still had a tiny squeak before clouting the last. The ground made up by Halcon Generlardais from the turn shows how tired they were. I actually think Kauto Star is the better stayer of the pair. Possibly gutsier also. Ruby did say that he thought Denman would improve again for blinkers.

Is it the fact that Denman ran one race last year to anything near his best form shows evidence of his endurance?

mdwexford

Morgans wrote: »

Ah jesus. That cant be let go. Go on, where is the evidence. No horse past or present....jesus.

The whole flaw in the Denman running Kauto Star into submission in the Gold Cup, was the fact that Neptune Collonges led them for a the first mile and a half, not Denman. Kauto Star had already made mistakes and was clearly uncomfortable and not travelling at the pace set by Neptune Collonges, not Denman. This is Kauto Star who won two tingle creeks over 2m. No-one in the field, even Denman should be able to get Kauto Star off the bridle so early with his natural speed. But again, it was evident that things werent right with Kauto Star when the pace was being set by Neptune Collonges, not Denman. Now, eventhough somethign was definitely not right about him that day, he would have got away with it, only that he had a serious top class animal in Denman to beat.

Denman was absolutely legless from the last two home, to the extent that Kauto Star still had a tiny squeak before clouting the last. The ground made up by Halcon Generlardais from the turn shows how tired they were. I actually think Kauto Star is the better stayer of the pair. Possibly gutsier also. Ruby did say that he thought Denman would improve again for blinkers.

Is it the fact that Denman ran one race last year to anything near his best form shows evidence of his endurance?

I was agreeing with everything you said up to the bolded part but in fairness to Denman he is obviously a very strong stayer and gutsy also. I heard Ruby say that also which i found strange as he doesnt seem to be anything other than straightforward.

Last season he had the heart issues so may not have been at his best because of that rather than the Gold Cup bottoming him.

Morgans

I honestly think Kauto Star was finishing better at Cheltenham in Denman's gold Cup as well as last year. Denman had some mitigating circumstances. The stamina issues that people have clung onto regarding Kauto Star was and is baseless. With regards guts, I tend to look at a couple of his defeats for this - the one vs Monet's Garden in the Old Roan Chase two years ago, the Gold Cup also vs Denman.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

I actually think Kauto Star is the better stayer of the pair. Possibly gutsier also?

This is the worst thing I have ever seen you post. Total nonsense. Did you just make this up now and decide to write it.

Kauto Star has more speed and class than denman but Denman is an out and out stayer, a relentless galloper.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

I honestly think Kauto Star was finishing better at Cheltenham in Denman's gold Cup as well as last year. Denman had some mitigating circumstances. The stamina issues that people have clung onto regarding Kauto Star was and is baseless. With regards guts, I tend to look at a couple of his defeats for this - the one vs Monet's Garden in the Old Roan Chase two years ago, the Gold Cup also vs Denman.

You need to watch the 2008 gold cup again.

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

This is the worst thing I have ever seen you post. Total nonsense. Did you just make this up now and decide to write it.

Kauto Star has more speed and class than denman but Denman is an out and out stayer, a relentless galloper.

I think the term out and out stayer is nonsense really. That a horse has no bottom is ridiculous. The best horses have a mixture of speed and stamina. I have followed Denman since he won a novice hurdle at Wincanton. Had many a long arguement in favour of the horse over Black Jack Ketchum. I know his record. Have a look at his Gold Cup win again. Couple of things to note from 3 out. 1) position of Halcon generlardais as they turn in 2) the way Denman's legs go to jelly between the last two 3) the way Kauto Star who could have been pulled up out in the country was gaining between the last two. Ruby, Im sure thought he still had a chance at the last, threw his horse at it, and landed on top of the fence, ending all chance. 4) Where Halcon generlardais is as they cross the line.

Im using Halcon Generlardais to hopefully put to bed the idea that Denman has bottomless stamina that grinds everyone down while he keeps on trucking. I will say that was one of the most brutal (as it tough) races Ive seen.

Were you expecting Denman to outstay Kauto Star up the hill last March when he was withing a length turing for home?

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

You need to watch the 2008 gold cup again.

Why would you say that, when its perfectly visible if you watch it, clearly you havent studied it enough. I suppose if its not on available online, then its not worth checking out. But some people have the dvds at home and actually enjoying watching the sport for what it is.

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

Why would you say that, when its perfectly visible if you watch it, clearly you havent studied it enough. I suppose if its not on available online, then its not worth checking out. But some people have the dvds at home and actually enjoying watching the sport for what it is.

The distance difference between Denman and Kauto Star at the last and the line is minimal and he almost got passed again by Neptune collonges. Kauto Star was out on his feet aswell. Your obviously watching some other race but then if the DVD doesn't have labels on it then it's not worth checking it.

Morgans

RichieLawlor wrote: »

The distance difference between Denman and Kauto Star at the last and the line is minimal and he almost got passed again by Neptune collonges. Kauto Star was out on his feet aswell. Your obviously watching some other race but then if the DVD doesn't have labels on it then it's not worth checking it.

If Kauto Star didn't bank the last and almost get caught by Neptune Collonges you'd have a point, but if you watched the race again, you'd see that he lost all chance of winning with the mistake and was nursed home while trying to keep second. No doubt you'll repeat your points without actually watching the race. The comedy is great though!

RichieLawlor

Morgans wrote: »

If Kauto Star didn't bank the last and almost get caught by Neptune Collonges you'd have a point, but if you watched the race again, you'd see that he lost all chance of winning with the mistake and was nursed home while trying to keep second. No doubt you'll repeat your points without actually watching the race. The comedy is great though!

Nonsense again, your trying to back up one ridiculous post by posting more tripe. 1st you say Kauto Star was staying on best and now your saying he was being nursed home. He used all his reserves to pass Neptune collonges and then emptied totally

Morgans

when you re-read my posts and correct yourself, I'll continue my attempts to educate.

mdwexford

Ha call down to me and ill show you on the Racing Post website, i watched it the other night and Morgans is right in that Denman looked tired between the last two and Kauto had a tiny squeak but i think he picked up again a bit after the last and they werent really gaining.

premierstone

Anyone who suggests that Kauto is more of a stayer than Denman should really think about a new hobby, maybe La Crosse or Badminton or the like :rolleyes: If it wasnt so redicilous it would be hilarious