TCDSU's sit-in protest in the Library

Kwekubo

I bumped into a friend who had been studying in the BLU this afternoon, and she tells me that a large group of people in yellow T-shirts have occupied the orientation space. Apparently the plan is a 24-hour protest. They picked a cold bloody night to do it...

Mark200

Yeah I heard someone on the radio earlier, I think it was the SU president, giving out about the library and stuff.

bythewoods

I was invited to join that "Save Trinity Library" group on facebook.. proceeded to do so..
Got mails today as follows:

Trinity College Student Union have taken action and occupied Library for a 24 Hour Protest.


Check out the news later for more info!

JOIN US!

70 students take library in sit in protest.

No to book buying budget cuts.
Bring back Sunday opening hours.
Increase Library opening hours to meet national average.

TCD students have had enough!

To Join us : Come to the Berkeley NOW!

Sounds.... fun.

Jonathan

Has it not been proven before that opening the library on a Sunday is uneconomical?

Mark200

Jonathan wrote: »

Has it not been proven before that opening the library on a Sunday is uneconomical?

Well it depends what value you put on education.

Prof.Badass

While i would like to see better opening hours for the librarys (despite never using them), i don't think it's a top priority with the country in the way it's in.

The su should learn how to pick their battles.

Aoibheann

Jonathan wrote: »

Has it not been proven before that opening the library on a Sunday is uneconomical?

Apparently only a tiny percentage (0.5% I believe) used the library on a Sunday when it was open. I was really surprised about that tbh. I'm curious as to how they got those figures, it's not as if they count us individually going into the Hamilton library or anything like.

But yeah, the library has feck all money as it is, their budget having been cut hugely this year, so I doubt they'd exactly be happy to spend money they don't have on wages etc for opening on Sundays.

It's really crap though in that there's definitely people who would use the libraries on a Sunday and it may not be convenient for them to use it other days of the week. I wonder how/if today's protest will change anything though, but hopefully it will!

Kurtosis

vinylmesh wrote: »

While i would like to see better opening hours for the librarys (despite never using them), i don't think it's a top priority with the country in the way it's in.

The su should learn how to pick their battles.

Well in my opinion, seeing as our registration fee jumped to 1500 euro this year (and is supposed to only be used for student services), I think it's despicable that the book budget has been cut, library staff have been let go and suggestions that the libraries will close early on Fridays. Maybe this would be acceptable if there were vast improvements in other services throughout college, but with the exception of the 24 hour study space, I can't see what has been improved since last year.

Time Magazine

penguin88 wrote: »

Well in my opinion, seeing as our registration fee jumped to 1500 euro this year (and is supposed to only be used for student services), I think it's despicable that the book budget has been cut

Trinity, for better or worse, it dependent on state funding. The state is running a deficit this year of €23bn.

We're cutting €222m from our Overseas Development Aid, yet you think it's cuts in a university's book budget that's despicable.

devinejay

I would definitely use the library on a Sunday, if it wasn't for the fact that I live an hour away, so while I'd like to see it open on a Sun, I can't really campaign for it without being a bit of a hypocrite.

The college may have to give on this one, the SU have reasonable leverage with the misuse of registration fees situation, even if I think their being d!cks for hassling the college over said issue.

Kurtosis

Time Magazine wrote: »

Trinity, for better or worse, it dependent on state funding. The state is running a deficit this year of €23bn.

We're cutting €222m from our Overseas Development Aid, yet you think it's cuts in a university's book budget that's despicable.

Maybe I should have phrased it better. I find a jump in the fees paid for student services coupled with cuts in student services to be despicable.

Mark200

Time Magazine wrote: »

Trinity, for better or worse, it dependent on state funding. The state is running a deficit this year of €23bn.

We're cutting €222m from our Overseas Development Aid, yet you think it's cuts in a university's book budget that's despicable.

Have they cut any funding to Trinity?

Aoibheann

Someone was saying that a large part of the library's funding is from tourism, and obviously with that being way down this year, it explains why the library budget has been slashed so much. Apparently they don't get much in the line of funding elsewhere, so government cuts may not have as much to do with it as would seem. I'm not entirely sure on that though.

But desperate times and all that, suppose we can hardly afford to complain about something like library hours (unfortunately!) considering the state of the country.

Mark200

Well there is the point that other universities have much longer library opening hours, so why can't Trinity?

Aoibheann

There's also that. It's shocking really, that for allegedly being the best college in the country, we've pretty much the worst (actually the second worst) opening hours of the lot. If the college is so set on maintaining or improving the current ranking, that's something they have to consider. Although I suppose they could say they've managed to get that ranking with those hours as it is. God knows, I'm sure they'll come up with some argument anyway - though funding is a big enough one I guess.

Time Magazine

penguin88 wrote: »

Maybe I should have phrased it better. I find a jump in the fees paid for student services coupled with cuts in student services to be despicable.

Welcome to the fiscal crisis. You're still being subsidised to an enormous amount and your fees are tiny if you really think about it. I like long opening hours too but, honestly, suck it up.

Mark200 wrote: »

Well there is the point that other universities have much longer library opening hours, so why can't Trinity?

Different budgeting structures, for one thing. Trinity has a much better stock of books than, say, NUIM or UCD. This doesn't come free.

Then there are other things that complicate matters like the library being connected to the Arts Block and the Old Library that makes it a bit of a security/insurance nightmare, I imagine.

Plus, people don't really use the library on Sunday, myself included.

tfak85

with so much being available to us online right now i don't see why they should reopen the library on sundays, the hours are good during the week and it's open on saturdays... i don't believe that THAT many people need it open on a sunday...

also, i was in there when all those people in the yellow shirts piled in and sat all over the place and i have to say, even as a student myself i thought "f**k!ng students"....

Karlusss

I imagine the Junior Dean will take great pleasure in turning off the central heating in the library this evening.

The "state of the country" argument is just the excuse everyone gives for everything. They're building a new post-grad research building (if that's what it is) and they extended the Pav, and we tolerate a trillion (that's an estimate) tourists blocking up the way every day going to the Book of Kells... and to me the library is THE central most important component of my college education.

Can't see the protest doing any good, but I wouldn't undercut its aims. If "the country in the way it's in" needs to save money on university libraries, tell it to cut UCD's hours to where ours are now.

Aoibheann

tfak85 wrote: »

with so much being available to us online right now i don't see why they should reopen the library on sundays, the hours are good during the week and it's open on saturdays... i don't believe that THAT many people need it open on a sunday...

I have to disagree with you right there. The online system atm is an absolute shambles, and it's something that definitely needs to be fixed before we even get started on the crappy hours business. I wouldn't mind the hours so much if I could keep books out for any reasonable amount of time, or at least renew it online more than once. It's a mess.

(Edit: I just realised you might mean in terms of e-books/journals available to us online, and if so, ignore this!)

mardybumbum

I actually find the opening times in the library ok. :eek:
I usually finish lectures around 4. Ill pop into the hamilton until 9. Then pop downstairs for a meusli bar and chocomilk ( they are delicious ).
Then I nip into the postgrad reading room for two hours. Sure the walk from the hamilton to front square wakes me up a bit.

I think the priority for TCD at the moment is a shuttle bus from front square to the hamilton. My legs are getting sore.

phoenix0250

Yup i am one of those people with the yellow t-shirts!!!
Now although you may not realise this but over 2000 people are in need of the library to be open on Sunday.
The Library's budget is €11 million!! now to get the library open on sunday would cost a mere €60000. Also compared with other Universities we have the second worse opening times for libraries although being the number one in Ireland and 43rd in the world. If we are to compete with other universities to get higher ranking we NEED this.

Thank You!

Jonathan

phoenix0250 wrote: »

Yup i am one of those people with the yellow t-shirts!!!
Now although you may not realise this but over 2000 people are in need of the library to be open on Sunday.
The Library's budget is €11 million!! now to get the library open on sunday would cost a mere €60000. Also compared with other Universities we have the second worse opening times for libraries although being the number one in Ireland and 43rd in the world. If we are to compete with other universities to get higher ranking we NEED this.

Thank You!

Is that the same 2000 people that used the library on Sundays during the same campaign last year?

antiselfdual

Out of interest, why does anybody think library opening hours are a contributing factor to our rankings? See eg the Times Higher Education ranking methodology. The only argument I can think of is the very indirect "longer opening hours will produce better students who will then make researchers and employers around the world think better of Trinity." (which doesn't convince me at least.)

devinejay

antiselfdual wrote: »

why does anybody think library opening hours are a contributing factor to our rankings?

Does anyone think this? Or does anyone even care?



Disclaimer; Rankings talk gets my goat (whatever that means).

oharach

Time Magazine wrote: »

Different budgeting structures, for one thing. Trinity has a much better stock of books than, say, NUIM or UCD. This doesn't come free.

Trinity is a legal deposit library, so it gets a lot of its books for free. What is doesn't get is multiple copies of popular books, or books from abroad.

Time Magazine wrote: »

Then there are other things that complicate matters like the library being connected to the Arts Block and the Old Library that makes it a bit of a security/insurance nightmare, I imagine.

Rubbish. The library is not connected to the Old Library. Have you ever visited Trinity? The library is connected to the Arts Block, but the entrance via the Arts Block is closed.

mardybumbum wrote: »

I actually find the opening times in the library ok. :eek:
I usually finish lectures around 4. Ill pop into the hamilton until 9.
Then I nip into the postgrad reading room for two hours.

Most people don't have the luxury of using the postgraduate reading room. And don't have the postgraduate borrowing privileges. The library is effectively closed at 21:45. This is not good enough for people taking schol.

Jonathan wrote: »

Is that the same 2000 people that used the library on Sundays during the same campaign last year?

The statistic used in the Irish Times was a lie. They said 0.5% of us used the library on Sunday, but they did the counts 10 minutes after the library opened. Come on, 5% of 15000 is only 70 people. No one who was in the library on Sundays would accept that figure.

antiselfdual wrote: »

Out of interest, why does anybody think library opening hours are a contributing factor to our rankings? See eg the Times Higher Education ranking methodology. The only argument I can think of is the very indirect "longer opening hours will produce better students who will then make researchers and employers around the world think better of Trinity." (which doesn't convince me at least.)

Em, if you can't research, you can't produce papers, which can't be cited. Maybe you should reconsider the Times Higher Education ranking methodology.

Kwekubo

oharach wrote: »

Rubbish. The library is not connected to the Old Library. Have you ever visited Trinity? The library is connected to the Arts Block, but the entrance via the Arts Block is closed.

There are underground tunnels connecting the Old Library to the BLU and stacks. And even if the connecting doors to the Arts Building and elsewhere are not left open, there are still insurance issues.

oharach wrote: »

Most people don't have the luxury of using the postgraduate reading room.

Never stopped anyone before. Especially until that new 24 hour space in the Ussher opened.

Denerick

Oh will people just get over themselves. We need cuts in the budget, cuts are infinitely preferable to tax hikes. If we tax ourselves anymore we might as well put a 'for sale' sign up over the economy and ask the Russians to install a military base!

This is another reason why its a disgrace that the SU forcibly represent my interests. Not in my name, please.

Denerick

phoenix0250 wrote: »

Yup i am one of those people with the yellow t-shirts!!!
Now although you may not realise this but over 2000 people are in need of the library to be open on Sunday.
The Library's budget is €11 million!! now to get the library open on sunday would cost a mere €60000. Also compared with other Universities we have the second worse opening times for libraries although being the number one in Ireland and 43rd in the world. If we are to compete with other universities to get higher ranking we NEED this.

Thank You!

Yet another unthinking student 'activist'. 2000 people? That is nonsense, a figure taken out of nowhere. Its uneconomical to keep it open on Sunday. And where does the 60k come out of, you seem to think its an absolutely tiny figure? 11 million might seem like a lot of money but please do join the rest of us in the real world when you've done playing at student politics.

shay_562

Normally, I find the SU as ridiculous as the next person, but honestly, I think they might have stumbled onto something actually important for once. Library opening hours for undergraduates ought to be a major priority in the college's budget, certainly higher than doing up the Pav or making the flats in New Square nicer. If the SU's claims that the book budget has been cut by 38% and that Friday opening hours may be cut are true (and I don't know if they are - not sure where they got their information from), then that's pretty appalling. Even the Sunday opening hours thing - yeah, only a few hundred people used it, but surely a few hundred students who have nowhere else to study on a Sunday deserve to have somewhere in their university that they can do so? It's all very well to say "Ah, sure, it's the recession" and just accept it, but for once I'm actually happy with the SU digging their heels in and being obstinate about something.

oharach

Denerick wrote: »

Oh will people just get over themselves. We need cuts in the budget, cuts are infinitely preferable to tax hikes. If we tax ourselves anymore we might as well put a 'for sale' sign up over the economy and ask the Russians to install a military base!

This is another reason why its a disgrace that the SU forcibly represent my interests. Not in my name, please.

I honestly wouldn't mind some cuts if they were consistent and thought through.

- The library installed a completely new computer system this year at great cost that most library staff still CANNOT use. Waste of money.
- There are still far too many staff in the BLU. I know they think they are overworked and underpaid but some of them should really wake up to what a private sector job would be like. Many of them are rude, incompetent and lazy. Waste of money.

Why can we not have
- Sunday opening - if it is economical for other universities, why not TCD
- access to the machines to check our own books out and in, as is customary in universities in England - cut staff.
- more than one delivery a day from the Santry book repository - this was a pathetic thing to cut and totally counterproductive given the miserable savings
- a fixed online renewals system. this sounds small but is incredibly inconvenient - it is new so it should work.

I am not an SU character, but I support what they did yesterday, because the library management and funding distribution has totally failed.

Jonathan

oharach wrote: »

- The library installed a completely new computer system this year at great cost that most library staff still CANNOT use. Waste of money.

I was under the assumption this was funded by a HEA capital grant.

oharach wrote: »

- more than one delivery a day from the Santry book repository - this was a pathetic thing to cut and totally counterproductive given the miserable savings

How time critical is your study?

oharach

Jonathan wrote: »

I was under the assumption this was funded by a HEA capital grant.

I don't think it really matters how it was funded. It was taxpayer money going to waste for a flashier website and a non-functional back-office system

Jonathan wrote: »

How time critical is your study?

When you want to read an article, or check a point, it's because it is relevant to what you are doing now. Very often I will just make do without books because I will have moved onto something else by the time they get to the library.

Anyway, the closing time for delivery is 9:30am - i would not be very far into my day's work at that stage. If you miss the deadline, you won't get your books until 12:30 the following day. At weekends, not at all. At the very least the deadline should be 12:00 for 15:00 delivery. That would suit most people a lot better.

Larianne

It really does shock me how a university so big as Trinity has a shockin library system.

Do they have extended hours during exam time?

Time Magazine

oharach wrote: »

Trinity is a legal deposit library, so it gets a lot of its books for free. What is doesn't get is multiple copies of popular books, or books from abroad.

UCD and NUIM are also de facto legal deposit libraries. I was of course making reference to the large stock of non-deposit books.

Rubbish. The library is not connected to the Old Library.

Wanna bet?

Have you ever visited Trinity?

Yes, once, when I was a lad.

The library is connected to the Arts Block, but the entrance via the Arts Block is closed.

There are other doors from the Arts Block to the library.

oharach

Larianne wrote: »

It really does shock me how a university so big as Trinity has a shockin library system.

Do they have extended hours during exam time?

No, but they do have "super fines" - for example they tried to charge me ca. €25 for keeping out 2 books from santry overnight. They in fact had checked them in incorrectly.

oharach

Time Magazine wrote: »

UCD and NUIM are also de facto legal deposit libraries. I was of course making reference to the large stock of non-deposit books.

I don't think UCD and NUI have the same entitlement to British books as TCD does. It is entitled under the Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003.

Time Magazine wrote: »

Wanna bet?

Sorry, I was of course not thinking about underground passages. Since the Old Library is open to visitors on Sundays, I still don't think there are significant insurance issues.

Time Magazine wrote: »

There are other doors from the Arts Block to the library.

But they are closed as well..? I've been at conferences in the Arts Block before on Sundays, so they don't mind paying the insurance for it.

Time Magazine

oharach wrote: »

I don't think UCD and NUI have the same entitlement to British books as TCD does. It is entitled under the Legal Deposit Libraries Act 2003.

Correct. Notwithstanding that, I'm making reference not to College's one copy of everything but to its large stock of just about all course books. It's insufficient to fill demand, but it's a lot better than other places.

Sorry, I was of course not thinking about underground passages. Since the Old Library is open to visitors on Sundays, I still don't think there are significant insurance issues.

It's only open from a quarter past twelve to a quarter to one, or something like that. There's also EPBs to consider. Basically, there is access to that building and that is an issue.

But they are closed as well..? I've been at conferences in the Arts Block before on Sundays, so they don't mind paying the insurance for it.

To be fair, it's a completely different ballgame. As someone who has broken into a TCD Library at 3am, climbed through windows into Library archives, stolen books from said archives (but of course returned them), climbed over shelves to get to library stacks, and other tales I'm not willing to spread, I can verify that students get up to mischief. They figure out that there are windows in the Berkeley. They figure out that the library has a large basement. They figure out that you can terrify tourists when visiting EPBs. Basically, they're not the same species as conferences attendees.

oharach

Time Magazine wrote: »

It's only open from a quarter past twelve to a quarter to one, or something like that. There's also EPBs to consider. Basically, there is access to that building and that is an issue.

I'm afraid this isn't exactly true. From their website:
Sunday (May - September) 09:30 - 16:30
Sunday (October - April) 12:00 - 16.30

Even the restricted Winter opening hours are roughly what was offered last year - and what we would be happy with.

Time Magazine wrote: »

To be fair, it's a completely different ballgame. As someone who has broken into a TCD Library at 3am, climbed through windows into Library archives, stolen books from said archives (but of course returned them), climbed over shelves to get to library stacks, and other tales I'm not willing to spread, I can verify that students get up to mischief. They figure out that there are windows in the Berkeley. They figure out that the library has a large basement. They figure out that you can terrify tourists when visiting EPBs. Basically, they're not the same species as conferences attendees.

You might be disappointed by the present generation of students. I stayed until 12:30am this morning (8 and a half hours) and despite the games of Twister, Monopoly and cards that people had brought, and the pizzas we had delivered, there wasn't a lot going on. The terms of our protest wouldn't even let us use the resources in the Iveagh Hall, e.g. the rather large and up to date DVD collection (which in all fairness should probably be scaled back since its existence is a well-guarded secret)

dan719

Time Magazine wrote: »

Trinity, for better or worse, it dependent on state funding. The state is running a deficit this year of €23bn.

We're cutting €222m from our Overseas Development Aid, yet you think it's cuts in a university's book budget that's despicable.

Hopefully we will cut it to zero in the near future. Who the f*ck borrows money just to give it away to a bunch of countries that couldn't work their way out of a paper bag.

Regarding the protest. Since my views on the SU are well known, it will probably come as a surprise that I supported last night's protest one hundred percent. College should have an area reserved for study 24 hours a day (one with toilets rather then the current one) rather than students resorting (as I have done on many occasions) to the Hamilton computer rooms. As someone who was in the library on many sundays over the last two years (when it was opened) I can say that the claim that only seventy people were there is nothing but a downright lie. There were oftentimes queues developing outside the berkeley entrance from half ten onwards.

Prof.Badass

penguin88 wrote: »

Well in my opinion, seeing as our registration fee jumped to 1500 euro this year (and is supposed to only be used for student services), I think it's despicable that the book budget has been cut, library staff have been let go and suggestions that the libraries will close early on Fridays. Maybe this would be acceptable if there were vast improvements in other services throughout college, but with the exception of the 24 hour study space, I can't see what has been improved since last year.

How can you expect vast improvements in this climate?

Surviving the reccession without "registration fees" hitting the roof would be a miracle imo. This is where the su should be channeling all their efforts.

oharach

dan719 wrote: »

I can say that the claim that only seventy people were there is nothing but a downright lie. There were oftentimes queues developing outside the berkeley entrance from half ten onwards.

Right on. There are 60 people at the minute (18:30) in the 24 hr computer room/study space, so it's laughable to think that more than 70 didn't show up in the relatively more sociable hours on Sundays when it was actually opened. (approx 11-4)

Update (20:30): still 33 people here

Sir Ophiuchus

I hear a rumour the library will be closed during the Schols period.

Someone, for the love of God, either prove or disprove this (preferably disprove). Their website has no opening hours for after the 18th of December.

Aoibheann

I couldn't tell you for certain, but I've also heard the same rumour, which if true is absolutely ridiculous.. Poor people studying for schols.

Lame Lantern

Staff are getting Emails about the cost of coffee mugs and chalk. The university's reaction to the squeeze has been at best incompetent, largely motivated by their unwillingness to tackle a ludicrous bureaucracy and generally moronic overstaffing problem.

I wouldn't make the library hours a priority anyway but my real gripe is that the SU is seizing on this easy issue instead of critically examining the university's books and putting pressure on administrators to be not-awful. Despite our ranking, many faculties are neglected and will be brought to the brink because of this crisis, yet unnecessary staff in enormous departments (like English for example, or even the library staff itself) are expected to get a promised increase in pay.

Sundays in the library is a low priority symptom in my view.

oharach

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

I hear a rumour the library will be closed during the Schols period.

Someone, for the love of God, either prove or disprove this (preferably disprove). Their website has no opening hours for after the 18th of December.

The library hours are only showing up for Michaelmas Term, which ends at Christmas. It's very unlikely that it will be closed over the schol* period. For one thing, they have a contractual obligation to give the permanent staff whatever minimum hours are named in their contracts. Also, it stays open in the summer, so no reason why not at Christmas. It will probably be 9-5 though, possibly closed on Saturdays.

* always singular

Kwekubo

Important Dates section on college website says that all libraries will be open until 10p.m. from 4 January.

oharach

Kwekubo wrote: »

Important Dates section on college website says that all libraries will be open until 10p.m. from 4 January.

Woohoo!

Awayindahils

mardybumbum wrote: »

I actually find the opening times in the library ok. :eek:
I usually finish lectures around 4. Ill pop into the hamilton until 9. Then pop downstairs for a meusli bar and chocomilk ( they are delicious ).
Then I nip into the postgrad reading room for two hours. Sure the walk from the hamilton to front square wakes me up a bit.

I think the priority for TCD at the moment is a shuttle bus from front square to the hamilton. My legs are getting sore.

But you are not entitled to that time you spend in the postgrad reading room. Its a postgrad facility, so factor it out of when evaluating the quality of the service.

oharach wrote: »

Rubbish. The library is not connected to the Old Library. Have you ever visited Trinity? The library is connected to the Arts Block, but the entrance via the Arts Block is closed.

The statistic used in the Irish Times was a lie. They said 0.5% of us used the library on Sunday, but they did the counts 10 minutes after the library opened. Come on, 5% of 15000 is only 70 people. No one who was in the library on Sundays would accept that figure.

Firstly, get to know your own library. They are connected. And there could potentially be massive damage.

Secondly, early on in the year Sudnay library hours are not used, i was a 4th year last year with a Sunday library habit. There were a lot of sundays in Michelamus term when the place was empty. (I do support longer library hours though)

oharach wrote: »

I'm afraid this isn't exactly true. From their website:
Sunday (May - September) 09:30 - 16:30
Sunday (October - April) 12:00 - 16.30

Even the restricted Winter opening hours are roughly what was offered last year - and what we would be happy with.

Opening hours in my Public German University, Social Contribution and Fees amount to 1,080 for two semesters.

The fees are the same for undergraduates.

Opening Hours - 24hours a day, all the time.

Desk Service - 7am-11pm Monday - Friday
8am -8pm Saturday
No desk service on a Sunday

Enormous amount of books, and very liberal borrowing priveldges.

I think Trinity and the Irish Government in general just hemoraged money all over the place and its not the students who should be paying, but unfortunately it is always those with the smallest voices who bear the burdon of other people's bad choices.

devinejay

Some thoroughly disgruntled looking TCD students in yellow made it into the Herald.AM. I'm not sure what to make of this, while I'm happy that the state of our facilities and the financial burden the college is facing is getting exposure, I just wish the SU weren't the face of it.

devinejay

devinejay wrote: »

Some thoroughly disgruntled looking TCD students in yellow made it into the Herald.AM. I'm not sure what to make of this, while I'm happy that the state of our facilities and the financial burden the college is facing is getting exposure, I just wish the SU weren't the face of it.

It's probably better being the SU instead of 'Dr. John Hegarty, whose own salary has increased by 19% for next year, highlighted the financial crisis facing the University sector'.

devinejay

Dónal wrote: »

It's probably better being the SU instead of 'Dr. John Hegarty, whose own salary has increased by 19% for next year, highlighted the financial crisis facing the University sector'.

True, very true.