(ISSF) Shooting jackets - the newer composite materials

Sparks

For those of us who shoot ISSF...

One of the outcomes from Kuortane is that I need to get myself a new shooting jacket (the trousers are fine, but the jacket itself needs to be retired to 'casual prone' use, its standing days are long over at this point).

Was looking at the new composite materials that a few companies are now using instead of the traditional canvas and leather, so it looks like boiling down to a choice between AHG, kusterman and sauer for the elastomer-on-cotton; Mannel/Hitex, Mouche or Truttmann for the woven plastic mesh; or Monard for the wierd-looking PVC-type material.

Hitex/Mannel seem to be quite popular in the UK, but that's because their agent is a tailor who measures them up, gets in the jackets and then brings them back in for a fitting and adjustment right there; but two trips to wolverhampton seems slightly excessive.

So have any of our ISSF posters used any of the new jackets, or any standing-only jackets? What did you think of them if so?

Coronal

I've the AHG one and find it excellent. That said, I don't have much to compare it to, apart from a looong succession of club jackets that never fitted me...

From the point of view of fit, mine was measured by a certain reputable retailer from Omagh who was very kind and drove to Portadown to meet me for measurement and also for a fitting when it arrived. Nothing but good things to say about that, excellent service.

Though IWM has had some problems with AHG fitting, mine is perfect. Shoulders and arms are the best fit I've seen, the only gripe I have is that they don't seem to have believed how slim I am and put a lot of extra material in it. Breaking it in fully will probably sort a lot of that though.

As for how the material is, I don't know really. I have found no problems with it, and it's not as stiff and nasty to start with as canvas so it breaks in really well. I imagine that since it starts off less stiff and relies on support rather than constriction that it's useful life will be extended. I've only had it about two months at this stage, so I can't comment on the longevity of it.

Hope this helps!

It wasn't me!

To be fair, my issues with the fit were the product of a long and painful ordeal for all concerned to try sort an initial problem. I have zero doubt that, starting from scratch with the intention of a made to measure jacket that AHG Anschutz would get it as spot on as any other manufacturer. I do like my current Thune however.

Sparks

Thune would be a lot more convenient for me since Geoff's their agent in the ROI; but he (Thune, that is) seems to take forever these days to make up a jacket, and he doesn't always get the measurements right, and to add to that, there's always the worry about getting them through equipment control without a good going-over with a club hammer first

I mean, if I'm going to be paying €700 for a jacket, it's rather unacceptable for it to get me disqualified from a match!

Sparks

And I've seen Coronal's jacket and it is indeed quite nice - it's just that the Hitex jackets some of the GB lads had over in Kuortane were quite nice as well!
Ah, decisions, decisions.

I think I can rule out Mouche though - heard not-so-great things about their build quality in the last year or two from some of the GB shooters, and I can't stand that stupid idea of using velcro to secure the shoulder straps (it'll come loose and the velcro will get clogged with lint, given how my kitbag seems to collect dust bunnies).

It wasn't me!

My Thune took ten weeks, which isn't too bad at all. Apparently Thunes of late aren't too bad for equipment control issues, but I don't know how true that is. Haven't taken mine for examination yet, probably won't be doing so. You're welcome to see mine though. It's in my kitbag in the range if you're training. You can check it out for any equipment control issues. Very fond of mine, but I'd definitely get something like Coronal's in future. It'd be well in the running for consideration.

Sparks

Sparks wrote: »

Thune would be a lot more convenient for me since Geoff's their agent in the ROI; but he (Thune, that is) seems to take forever these days to make up a jacket, and he doesn't always get the measurements right, and to add to that, there's always the worry about getting them through equipment control without a good going-over with a club hammer first

I mean, if I'm going to be paying €700 for a jacket, it's rather unacceptable for it to get me disqualified from a match!

I really really like my Thune jacket.

Sparks

I've shot in a thune before I got my AHG (just one of the off-the-rack club ones); and I've seen all the ones Geoff got in for the WTSC shooters over the years. Don't get me wrong - they're really top notch. It's just that there've been a few hiccups over the years between stiffness hassles, the way some were cut so they didn't quite make it past equipment control without trimming, and the whole thing with the "extra pocket" malarky (which in fairness is probably more down to ISSF than Thune, but you'd figure if you're making ISSF jackets, you'd get in ISSF people to vet them before you release a new line), and it was nearly four months for Liz's new jacket before he even got down to making the thing there last year.

Naw, I'm going a bit off Thune because of those things. Maybe Geoff could go for the agency for Hitex in Ireland or we could just send off for one directly (Geoff's got a fair bit of practice in the measuring-people-for-jackets game at this point).

Coronal

Exactly. AHG anyway were very good with dealing directly with the club from what I recall, so I can only assume that most of the manufacturers would have no problem taking a direct order (nice logical jump, I know :P) One of the main reasons I didn't go direct to Anschutz was the service provided for measurement and fitting. Not a risk I'd like to take myself with €700 odd euro...

demonloop

I'll try and comment as unbiasedly as possible

I had one MTM Thune jacket in my time, and it didn't really work for me. It cut the left hand side of my neck so badly in prone that I had to apply Vasaline before shooting (keep all comments to yourselves:D) The support and fit otherwise was very good.

That was about 8-10 years ago when Thune were considered 'the' jacket.

Sparks comments about EC are quite valid, Thune has always had problems tha needed bits altered/removed etc but to be fair to them it was their own ingenuity getting the most out of the rules that led to this IMO.

They would find an area to make stiffer and the ISSF would think 'damn, they got us again. Lets change the rules'. Thats probably a simplistic way of looking at it, but it seemed like cat and mouse for years to me.

In part, that led to Thune's popularity. If you hear of a jacket that has found ways of flexing the rules, giving you that edge, you'll buy one.

Getting back to the original topic of materials, Thune have certainly lost some ground since the competitors got the new materials onboard, for the same reason that led to Thune's popularity; they seem to give an advantage.

I've been using the ahg for some time and only had one problem, the jacket thickness at the button area was a smidgeon thick. Would have failed EC at comber (I think) but I offered to cut out the leather between the buttons, when they realised I wasn't a threat to the prize positions they let it go .

Its since been shaved to take a few thou off the leather.

The Mannel jackets are gaining popularity, esp in GB where Philippa does the fittings and adjustments on site but the price is horrendous to begin with, never mind the added flights and transport from here.

I've had very good results recently with the Sauer MTM jackets, they just never seem to get it wrong. Its not the biggest seller in the world (nor anywhere near it) but its a quality jacket that fits great, its certainly worth a look.

My next jacket will very likely be a Sauer or another ahg.

Sparks

demonloop wrote: »

I had one MTM Thune jacket in my time, and it didn't really work for me. It cut the left hand side of my neck so badly in prone that I had to apply Vasaline before shooting (keep all comments to yourselves:D) The support and fit otherwise was very good.

I had a similar issue in prone with Thune - so I kept wearing some fairly thin poloneck jumper type things I bought from Dunnes Stores under the jacket to save my neck. I still wear something similar (the cold gear underarmour has a short poloneck) even though the AHG stenvaag jacket is far less abrasive.

Never tried vasaline though :eek:

The Mannel jackets are gaining popularity, esp in GB where Philippa does the fittings and adjustments on site but the price is horrendous to begin with, never mind the added flights and transport from here.

True - though presumably we could order direct from Mannel here in the ROI since Philippa's not the ROI agent. I'd prefer the second fitting, but flying to and from the UK to get it might be a bridge too far. And I know they're expensive to start with, but for a custom-made jacket, it's not exceptionally more expensive than any of the others really. I wouldn't say you'd get much change out of €700 for a custom jacket from any of the top lines. They do also have the Evomix jackets which are off-the-rack and about €200 cheaper, but I don't think you generally find my shape on any rack

My next jacket will very likely be a Sauer or another ahg.

Must take a closer look at the Sauer. I never associated them with anything other than boots, for some reason (8-10 years ago, IIRC, they made some of the best boots around).

convert

I'm happy with my Thune jacket - it fits me well, is comfortable to wear and I've not had a problem with it passing equipment control.

I had a word with some of the GB, Danish and IOM shooters re their jackets and equipment control, and the only thing which arose was that one shooter had to cut out of some of the leather on the inside of his jacket along the button hole panel to adhere to recent rule changes (i.e. there are now leather squared behind the button holes only rather than the whole way along the panel). However, the shooter in question has had that jacket for as long as I can remember (at least 10 years) and that's the only alteration he's had to make. Plus he's shooting mid 580s-590s. So not a bad investment, me thinks!

IRLConor

Another happy Thune user here. It takes forever to get but it fits well and it's comfortable. All the problems I had with my elbow being sore reduced when I got the jacket and disappeared when I got the underwear.

I haven't run it through equipment control, but mine is cut for prone so the only trouble I'd have in common with a 3P cut would be in stiffness. The material is very stiff. I don't have any idea how stiff it's allowed to be, but I wouldn't be surprised if it needed a bit of bashing to make it pass.

rrpc

IRLConor wrote: »

I haven't run it through equipment control, but mine is cut for prone so the only trouble I'd have in common with a 3P cut would be in stiffness. The material is very stiff. I don't have any idea how stiff it's allowed to be, but I wouldn't be surprised if it needed a bit of bashing to make it pass.

Indeed. When we were doing the Judges course, the new Thune jackets failed stiffness every time. Only the old ones passed. The places tested are usually in the least wearing spots for a prone shooter so they stay stiff for a considerable length of time there. Every so often we get a rush of blood to the brain and think we're going to buy some EC gear and every time the amount of money always seems to be better spent elsewhere

When and if we do, I'd say a lot of people will get a big surprise

Coronal

Here's hoping that my ahg passes first time round...

IRLConor

rrpc wrote: »

When and if we do, I'd say a lot of people will get a big surprise

TBH, for me, the prone cut might cause me some issues. Getting a 70mm overlap with my hands at my sides may be a little tricky. At least I could bash the jacket until it softened, fixing the cut is a little pricier!

Sparks

Hell, getting your hands down to your sides is tough enough in a prone jacket.
Apparently, prone jackets are mainly a UK/IRL thing from what I hear - everywhere else doesn't seem to bother with them much. It's probably tied to the prevalance of the NSRA matchs (the English and the Double Dewars) in the UK and our sort-of copying of that.

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Hell, getting your hands down to your sides is tough enough in a prone jacket.
Apparently, prone jackets are mainly a UK/IRL thing from what I hear - everywhere else doesn't seem to bother with them much. It's probably tied to the prevalance of the NSRA matchs (the English and the Double Dewars) in the UK and our sort-of copying of that.

If you don't shoot standing it's a hell of a lot more comfortable to shoot in a prone-only jacket due to the cut of the shoulders and the upper back. It would be mad to buy a 3P jacket and then only use it in prone, the bunched material at the shoulder is always a difficult part to adjust and avoiding that is very worthwhile.

I'm guessing that the reason for their unpopularity elsewhere is down to them being much harder to get through equipment control. That, and the looser regulations on air rifles probably encourage more standing shooting anyway.

When my current jacket needs replacing (some time around 2030 at the rate I'm shooting ) I'll consider a 3P jacket, if only to give me more options for casual shoots.

Sparks

I think it might be because they shoot more 3P elsewhere too
It's like the ISSF shotgun lads keep noticing - only in the UK and IRL is DTL shotgun popular - everywhere else, it's tiny and everyone shoots one ISSF discipline or another.

Coronal

I have to say about the cut of my jacket that there's not that much material bunched up at the shoulder. It certainly feels quite comfortable. The only problem I have is that the buttplate can sometimes slip a little, but a slight cant on the carrier may solve that nicely.

It wasn't me!

If I were going for a new jacket, I'd probably get a Thune Expert or an AHG Scorpion Fusion I think. Looking at Coronal's one, they are very, very nice, and if it were cut as well as his, it'd be a superb jacket. I do like my Thune Adventure however, and it will do me very well until I either wear it out or get in proper shape and have to buy new kit. Then, it's a toss-up really as to what gives me the best price for a full suit. At the current rate, I could be looking for a new suit next summer if I keep losing weight!

Sparks

Finally made a decision:

It wasn't me!

Very nice call Sparks. Very nearly got a non-fusion Kustermann before I bought my current Thune. They still look very good indeed. Shouldn't take long either, being made by AHG these days. Demonloop was telling me before that they've cut their manufacture and delivery time down to a few weeks now.

Sparks

Yeah, after a fair bit of digging about I kindof came to the conclusion that I wasn't really going to be able to tell which was the "best", so I just asked someone who's tried nearly all of them and went with that. If it's good enough for the Emmons and Gonci, I reckon it should do me fine

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah, after a fair bit of digging about I kindof came to the conclusion that I wasn't really going to be able to tell which was the "best", so I just asked someone who's tried nearly all of them and went with that. If it's good enough for the Emmons and Gonci, I reckon it should do me fine

You're fast buying your way out of excuses!

Sparks

It's actually been a bit wierd, that - I normally try to change one thing and then shoot for a while before changing the next thing, and I try not to buy stuff until I know I need it and can't find an alternative (like with the MEC visor, I tried using a baseball cap and a floppy hat before I bought the visor) -- but I had a list as long as your forearm of things to do when I got back from Kuortane, and some of those (like the jacket) were just shopping list items, so in the last fortnight I've changed a host of things.

Last night's wall-watching though, was good enough to convince me that it's working. Everything was much better than at the DURC 10m Open. Cheekpiece weld is good, trigger finger is good, jacket isn't great but it's better, sight picture is good, position is good, hold is... well, it's okay ...

Coronal

Nice decision Sparks. I was looking at that one myself but decided against as the AHG looks a small bit more form fitting, which, lets face it, I really need

Sparks

And face it Coronal, it doesn't matter what size or shape it is, it'll be form fitting when I get into it

Coronal

Nooooo!! No more mental images!

Sparks

You brought it on yourself Coronal

Coronal

I'm saying nothing on these matters from now on. It's safer for everybody

Half-cocked

Sparks wrote: »

Finally made a decision:

And if you buy a matching trousers and hat with bells attached you can go to fancy dress parties as a court jester:D:D:D:D

Sparks

Or do this all day long:

Half-cocked

Bah! I can make a hole like that too and I don't need a fancy vest, just a pair of scissors;)

Sparks

You have a pair of scissors that's ten metres long? :eek:

sbw

I'd be curious to see how you get on with the Kustermans. Are they using plastics too?


The back panels of my Thune are still causing EC concern 10 years on.

Sparks

Yeah, the Kusterman Subratex is using a plastic composite material. Soon as I get it sorted, I'll post about it. (Meanwhile, if the MEC trigger interests you...)