UFC, fans in Ireland and pro wrestling

TheCandystripes

ive noticed in ireland mma bandwagoners look down on pro wrestling. theyve got on the ufc bandwagon and when they think of pro wrestling they think of hulk hogan and stone cold. open your mind and look beyond that.

mma owes so much to pro wrestling. in japan the majority of mma fighters have been pro wrestlers.

i really hate the people who have been watching ufc since it hit mainstream and now think they're above pro wrestling. if you just dont like pro wrestling then ok but dont be an idiot. in japan pro wrestling is more respected than mma. FACT

discuss. why do the mma fans feel so insecure about pro wrestling?

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Move to Japan if you feel so strongly about it..
Seriously though, Pro Wrestling will always be looked down on because it's 'Sports Entertainment' ie. not actually a sport, that term was invented by the kingpin of modern wrestling, Vince McMahon. I like to watch a bit of wrestling now and then but MMA is simply more enjoyable because you know that MMA fighters are hurt when they get kicked in the head.

Professey Chin

TBH I dont look down on pro-wrestling, I just look at it for what it is.Entertainment and Spectacle.
In a way it was actually what introduced me to MMA.When Ken Shamrock was there in about 98/99 I wondered where "the worlds most dangerous man" name came from, found out something about UFC superfight and found a couple old videos(UFC 1 & 3) for rent. Id also say a lot of MMA fans found out the same way (even if they wont admit it :pac:)

TheCandystripes

It depends what wrestling you watch. WWE is crap but TNA is great. I would recommend it for any fans who fell out of love with boring wwe

fatal

Ultimate Chin wrote: »

TBH I dont look down on pro-wrestling, I just look at it for what it is.Entertainment and Spectacle.
In a way it was actually what introduced me to MMA.When Ken Shamrock was there in about 98/99 I wondered where "the worlds most dangerous man" name came from, found out something about UFC superfight and found a couple old videos(UFC 1 & 3) for rent. Id also say a lot of MMA fans found out the same way (even if they wont admit it :pac:)

Props for honesty.I totally agree with you,whether many other MMA fans would too is questionable.

Anyone who claims to like MMA and looks down on pro-wrestling (and i don't mean WWE) clearly doesn't know the history of MMA,and if they don't know that,well,then there isn't really much point in trying to tell them either because most won't want to believe the truth anyway.

Furious-Dave

You gotta bare in mind that alot of the newer MMA fans know nothing other than UFC, let alone the history behind the sport, perhaps Cage Rage, if they're in the UK and Ireland, and similar events in the USA, and we all know how ignorant Americans can be of things from outside the US. I for one much prefer Pride to UFC (sigh) and the likes of 2Hot2Handle to Cage Rage.

cletus

I must fall into the minority. I love mma, saw my first ufc back about '95, but never had any interest in wrasslin', even as a kid (although I did pretend cause all my mates thought it was brilliant, used to say the Ultimate Warrior was my fave )

edit: meant to say, I don't look down on Pro Wrestling, it just doesn't bother me one way or the other

Sid_Justice

TheCandystripes wrote: »

ive noticed in ireland mma bandwagoners look down on pro wrestling.

Who are the mma bandwaggoners? How do they look down on pro wrestling?

TheCandystripes wrote: »

theyve got on the ufc bandwagon and when they think of pro wrestling they think of hulk hogan and stone cold. open your mind and look beyond that.

Why? It doesn't matter. Pro Wrestling is choreographed fighting with a predetermined winner. It doens't matter how physical it is, how much a Wrestler hurts himself performing or how entertaining it is, it's still 100% pretend.

TheCandystripes wrote: »

mma owes so much to pro wrestling. in japan the majority of mma fighters have been pro wrestlers.

MMA doesn't owe much at all to Pro-Wrestling. Other than Pro-wrestling providing a business model, some ready-made fans who will lap up expensive tickets, t-shirts, merchanise and follow the shows around. The sport itself doesn't owe Pro-Wrestling anything. While a couple of pro-wrestlers may have become legitimate MMA fighters, a couple of MMA fighters have done some Pro-Wrestling I certainly don't think it's the majority. Maybe at the superstar level it is but certainly not across the board.

TheCandystripes wrote: »

i really hate the people who have been watching ufc since it hit mainstream and now think they're above pro wrestling. if you just dont like pro wrestling then ok but dont be an idiot. in japan pro wrestling is more respected than mma. FACT

What does this even mean? More Respected? do you mean more popular? more main stream? FACT. FACT? ...

I can fully understand someone who was a fan of pro-wrestling and seeing UFC for the first time saying "This is actually real. This is like Pro-wrestling, except not fake. Having watched UFC, it's impossible for me to watch pro-wrestling without cringing. I'm never going to watch it again".

TheCandystripes wrote: »

discuss. why do the mma fans feel so insecure about pro wrestling?

These insecurity fantasies are purely a figment of the internet's imagination. Boxers don't wake up at night shivering due to MMA night mares. Most boxers don't care about MMA. Most MMA fighters don't care about Pro-Wrestling. They don't see any similarity. They don't feel threatened. They don't feel the necessity to justify anything to pro-wrestling.

Personally speaking I don't understand how any adult can watch Pro-Wrestling. It's ridiculous. Yes, I loved it when it was 8 years old. Maybe TNA is a lot closer to the wrestling I enjoyed rather than the current WWE, but while I can spend hours playing Pokemon on the DS like a 8 year old I can't watch WWE for more than 10 seconds.

chopperbyrne

Already discussed heavily in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516015

rovert

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Already discussed heavily in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516015

And it didnt turn out well

I must say in general this is one of the most knowledgeable MMA boards I’ve come across due the amount of (legit not just posers like on US forums) MA/SD & MMA practitioners on here. But some are so uptight about learning about the strong links MMA has to Wrestling.

Maldini2706

DeVore

MMA has links to Wrestling for sure, you see that every time people like Ortis take to the octagon because they make a point of saying its his strength. Look at Couture, he rose through the ranks of Wrestling and was considered one of the best. Thats widely understood and appreciated.

No one is denying MMA has a historical foot in wrestling, particularly Greco-Roman wrestling. But Pro-Wrestling normally refers to the Hulk Hogan and The Rock style of wrestling, which to be honest, is really more a sort of "dangerous ballet".

That goes back as far as Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks (anyone remember them?). They rigged matches too, i used to love watching them as a kid with my dad (and wrestling with him afterwards!) but they were rigged even then (read a book called "You grunt, i'll groan").

I dont think you should be annoyed about MMA fans looking down on Pro Wrestling but i dont think you should be surprised if they get angry if you insinuate that they are anything alike. That cheapens what the martial artists do in the octagon. MMA is for real. There's just no getting past that.

DeV.

rovert

Maldini2706 wrote: »

Sure is:

DeVore wrote: »

MMA has links to Wrestling for sure, you see that every time people like Ortis take to the octagon because they make a point of saying its his strength. Look at Couture, he rose through the ranks of Wrestling and was considered one of the best. Thats widely understood and appreciated.

No one is denying MMA has a historical foot in wrestling, particularly Greco-Roman wrestling. But Pro-Wrestling normally refers to the Hulk Hogan and The Rock style of wrestling, which to be honest, is really more a sort of "dangerous ballet".

That goes back as far as Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks (anyone remember them?). They rigged matches too, i used to love watching them as a kid with my dad (and wrestling with him afterwards!) but they were rigged even then (read a book called "You grunt, i'll groan").

I dont think you should be annoyed about MMA fans looking down on Pro Wrestling but i dont think you should be surprised if they get angry if you insinuate that they are anything alike. That cheapens what the martial artists do in the octagon. MMA is for real. There's just no getting past that.

DeV.

Did you watch PRIDE FC Dev?

Sid_Justice

MMA has links to Wrestling for sure, you see that every time people like Ortis take to the octagon because they make a point of saying its his strength. Look at Couture, he rose through the ranks of Wrestling and was considered one of the best. Thats widely understood and appreciated.

Eh, please don't confuse Pro-Wrestling with actual wrestling as in Greco/Freesyle/Folk/Collegiate/Catch/Submission wrestling. The wrestling martial arts are an absolute central aspect of MMA.

Not sure why you brought it up. Other than WWE/Pro-Wrestling having the word wrestling in them.

Furious-Dave

My understanding is that the Pro Wrestling root of modern MMA is actually based in the Japanese version of Pro Wrestling, not the American version. The Japanese Pro Wrestling was supposed to be as close to modern MMA as you can get, but the winner, like American Pro Wrestling, was predeclared. Also from what I understand, many of the competitors were Shoot fighters and Free fighters, who got frustrated with the "real but not real fighting" and jumped at the chance to compete in MMA.

rovert

Furious-Dave wrote: »

My understanding is that the Pro Wrestling root of modern MMA is actually based in the Japanese version of Pro Wrestling, not the American version. The Japanese Pro Wrestling was supposed to be as close to modern MMA as you can get, but the winner, like American Pro Wrestling, was predeclared. Also from what I understand, many of the competitors were Shoot fighters and Free fighters, who got frustrated with the "real but not real fighting" and jumped at the chance to compete in MMA.

More or less it really. Pride did push the fake end of Pro Wrestlers too, just check out the first ten shows.

Mixed Martial Arts as term was coined by Antonio Inoki who promoted matches and fights under that label the most famous (and boring):



Inoki also ended up aligning with Pride in 90s managing and promoting:

chopperbyrne

Inoki gave his famous slap to Machida didn't he?

rovert

chopperbyrne wrote: »

Inoki gave his famous slap to Machida didn't he?

Yep:

A New Japan Pro Wrestling card would be LYOTO’s professional Mixed Martial Arts debut. The confusion of placing sanctioned Mixed Martial Arts bouts on a pro wrestling card, in a night featuring pro wrestlers vs. pro fighters in both pro wrestling and MMA bouts was immense. If anything, this fits right into Dave Meltzer’s world view of pro wrestling and MMA being the “same.” LYOTO made his debut against the less-than-game Kengo Watanabe, who had a decent record against pro wrestlers like Dos Caras Jr. and Tomohiko Hashimoto, but mixed against actual competition. LYOTO came in to tons of hype and fanfare, months of mysterious Inoki-led hype of LYOTO being the best fighter in the world and then dragged out a decision against Kengo. While a win is a win, especially in a pro fighter’s debut, LYOTO was met with a hard slap to the face by Inoki, as well as two straight punches on live Japanese television for lacking “fighting spirit.” This was not what Inoki was looking for. Lyoto was not the fighter that he was supposed to be.

He had to follow this and failed:
IWGP Junior Heavyweight Tag Team Title Match: Jushin Thunder Liger and Koji Kanemoto defeated Tiger Mask 4 and Heat (19:50)

Which was additional reason Inoki was angry :pac:

chopperbyrne

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecoVYHikOn8

A slap and two "solid" punches. Lyoto no sold them!

DeVore

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Eh, please don't confuse Pro-Wrestling with actual wrestling as in Greco/Freesyle/Folk/Collegiate/Catch/Submission wrestling. The wrestling martial arts are an absolute central aspect of MMA.

Not sure why you brought it up. Other than WWE/Pro-Wrestling having the word wrestling in them.

yes, that was kinda my point. People get confused and think that MMA fighters have no regard for "wrestling" when in fact they have a high regard for REAL wrestling but typically not much regard for the WWE stuff.

DeV.

TheCandystripes

<warned for abuse>


pro wrestling is a performance but its undoubtably connected with mma, in japan the crossover is not as distinct as it is in the usa.

a

Professey Chin

TheCandystripes wrote: »

tell me kurt angle, chris benoit, bryan danielson etc. can't wrestle.

pro wrestling is a performance but its undoubtably connected with mma, in japan the crossover is not as distinct as it is in the usa.

a

What makes you think he can? :eek:

danlen

TheCandystripes wrote: »

You lot are idiots. There is loads of different kind of pro wrestling. go to mexico and say bad stuff about luchadors and they would **** you weak irish up tell me kurt angle, chris benoit, bryan danielson etc. can't wrestle.

pro wrestling is a performance but its undoubtably connected with mma, in japan the crossover is not as distinct as it is in the usa.

a

i dont think it can be doubted that these guys are athletically gifted (look at them!) and some pro-wrestlers (eg angle in 96 olympics) have a great amateur wrestling pedigree.

BUT they no longer compete in a sport. they are now NOT sportsmen, they are glorified stuntmen/actors. sorry for being so abrupt but thats the way it is. they dont train to fight like an MMA fighter, they train to look ripped and mucular.

honestly mate why are trying to compare entertainment to an actual sport?? they are 2 different things...

leggo

Just for the record, I know 4-5 people who've done both and all agree that pro-wrestling is a lot tougher than MMA.

I'm far from trying to incite anything here. I've the upmost respect for anyone tough enough to train in MMA. And I'm not even saying the above is a fact...it's just what I've heard (from the only people qualified to judge).

But to simply write wrestling off as 'fake' and JUST entertainment would be completely ignorant. I did it for over four years. Trust me, it's not. The first thing we learned was how to handle ourselves legitimately, the rationale being that people would often start fights with you because they thought wrestling was fake and wanted to look tough. If you got the **** kicked out of you...well you just proved them right didn't you? Plus MMA fighters have how many fights a year? 3-4? Compare that to up to 200 for guys in WWE etc.

It's apples and oranges, without question. But let's not forget that the dude on top of the MMA world, kicking the **** out of respected martial artists, came from that field. So MMA fans would be plain wrong to discredit the toughness required for it.

chopperbyrne

leggo wrote: »

Just for the record, I know 4-5 people who've done both and all agree that pro-wrestling is a lot tougher than MMA.

I'm far from trying to incite anything here. I've the upmost respect for anyone tough enough to train in MMA. And I'm not even saying the above is a fact...it's just what I've heard (from the only people qualified to judge).

But to simply write wrestling off as 'fake' and JUST entertainment would be completely ignorant. I did it for over four years. Trust me, it's not. The first thing we learned was how to handle ourselves legitimately, the rationale being that people would often start fights with you because they thought wrestling was fake and wanted to look tough. If you got the **** kicked out of you...well you just proved them right didn't you? Plus MMA fighters have how many fights a year? 3-4? Compare that to up to 200 for guys in WWE etc.

It's apples and oranges, without question. But let's not forget that the dude on top of the MMA world, kicking the **** out of respected martial artists, came from that field. So MMA fans would be plain wrong to discredit the toughness required for it.

He also came from a 105-6 collegiate record and would have been on the US Olympic Team if he wasn't offered big money by Vince McMahon.

leggo

I know that and agree with what you're saying. All I'm saying is that the top guy in the MMA world at the moment was also previously top of the pro-wrestling world. And a lot of purists were doubting his credentials BECAUSE of the latter at first.

So what's good for the goose...

Again, NOT trying to start a row here. Even with my training, if I stepped into an MMA ring with a trained fighter tomorrow I'd get the **** kicked out of me.

All I'm saying is that to just write pro-wrestling off is ignorant and only people who've never had any (real) experience wrestling will say so.

chopperbyrne

I agree that you have to be extremely tough to be a pro-wrestler. It's a hugely demanding lifestyle, but you couldn't take the current top pro wrestler John Cena and expect him to do well in MMA as he has no amateur wrestling background.

leggo

Agreed...the same way that many MMA successes have passed through pro-wrestling and never made it big in the same way that Brock has in UFC.

Maldini2706

TheCandystripes wrote: »

You lot are.....

It doesn't MATTER what you think...

PeakOutput

this is a ridicolous thread to be honest

i dont look down on wrestling because i like mma and think it is somehow threatened by pro wrestling

i look down on wrestling because its a never ending soap opera starring guys in lycra. its entertaining to watch once in a while for a few minutes but other than that its crap

you cant even compare it to ufc. just because people who are into actual martial arts also happen to be pro wrestlers(sometimes) dosnt mean anything accept they could make more money and get more fame doing that then fighting mma. up until now that is i guess.

i obviously agree pro wrestlers tend to be very athletic and some of the feats they do are impressive but as has been said numerous times already its not a sport. ufc is a sport, i like sports and i like ufc pro wrestling dosnt even come into it

dunkamania

I dont know why these threads keep popping up every couple of months. I am hoping they will die off soon.

The whole thing reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9iMNyijzTE

Ahh South Park, eases the pain. Great episode too, especially where the coach puts Butters and Cartman into the starting wrestling position.

Anyway, continue.....