Where is the Govenrnment helping through the Floods?

MotteDai

Hi All

Just after watching the News there and I've seen ministers and our taoiseach out in 4x4's overlooking and shaking hands, but other than sending out the Amay do you think they are organizing the response to what is our most serious national trauma in Decades.. all I want is your opinions really..

Morgans

I'm from the country, Co. Limerick, and have lived in Dublin for 13 years. I hope I dont upset anyone here, as I think there are very few differences between Dubliners and the rest of the country. It is the first time that I've sympathy for the often held view at "home" that those in the countryside might as well be living in a different country to those in Dublin. It is my opinion that should the floods have struck Dublin and not Cork, Co. Galway, Clare or Limerick that the reaction from the media and the politicians would be increased by a large large factor.

The media reaction to the apartment roof blowing off in Carrickmines compared to devastation of huge tracts of countryside and the flooding through the middle of Cork City struck me. Five days on, we are beginning to get a proper sense of the disaster. I see very little criticism as of yet for the Govt reaction time.

dvpower

MotteDai wrote: »

Hi All

Just after watching the News there and I've seen ministers and our taoiseach out in 4x4's overlooking and shaking hands, but other than sending out the Amay do you think they are organizing the response to what is our most serious national trauma in Decades.. all I want is your opinions really..

What do you want the government to do, that they are not already doing?

Soldie

What do you think they should do?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

starbelgrade

Morgans wrote: »

It is my opinion that should the floods have struck Dublin and not Cork, Co. Galway, Clare or Limerick that the reaction from the media and the politicians would be increased by a large large factor.

As it was when Ringsend got flooded a few years back. The media & the government are extremely Dublincentric.

sceptre

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Worth noting that Reagan's next words in that speech were "Well, of course, sometimes government can help and should help - natural disasters like the drought, for example". It's probably reasonable to assume that if there had been a flood affecting the Future Farmers of America (for whom the speech was made) in the summer of 1988 rather than a drought, that he'd have slotted in the word "flood" instead.

W could have learned something from the extended version of that quote, even with the first half being little more than a quick quip for people who viewed themselves as pestered by bureaucrats who wanted to make sure their grain was safe. Something that might have been useful in New Orleans for example.

Incidentally, the quote was "ten", not "nine" as there was a "hi" at the start. Reagan liked to say hi. People liked to say hi back as well.

baalthor

starbelgrade wrote: »

As it was when Ringsend got flooded a few years back. The media & the government are extremely Dublincentric.

There were also floods in D15 and the northside at various times (remember Bertie in his wellies?)

I can't say I've noticed any huge difference in the coverage

Should media coverage be determined by the number of people affected?
If so, you would expect large urban areas to get more coverage.
Not sure if this holds for the current floods. Cork City must account for a large % of people affected (maybe 50,000 people without water at one point!) but is it getting an equivalent % of the media coverage?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dannyboy83

Morgans wrote: »

I'm from the country, Co. Limerick, and have lived in Dublin for 13 years. I hope I dont upset anyone here, as I think there are very few differences between Dubliners and the rest of the country. It is the first time that I've sympathy for the often held view at "home" that those in the countryside might as well be living in a different country to those in Dublin. It is my opinion that should the floods have struck Dublin and not Cork, Co. Galway, Clare or Limerick that the reaction from the media and the politicians would be increased by a large large factor.

The media reaction to the apartment roof blowing off in Carrickmines compared to devastation of huge tracts of countryside and the flooding through the middle of Cork City struck me. Five days on, we are beginning to get a proper sense of the disaster. I see very little criticism as of yet for the Govt reaction time.

Have to echo the above.

We were cut off for about 2 days with no electricity, internet, phones, O2, ATMS down so couldn't get cash from bank machines to drive to parents gaf in the city, couldn't use laser or credit card, but when I watched the news on the RTE player at the weekend, I was genuinely surprised to see that the floods/catastrophe were not the first items on the news.

I had the feeling that we were in a war zone on Thursday night, the main road through the town had become a river - on both sides, and flooding have spread out in a very wide radius, numerous shops and resteraunts were flooded, numerous apartments, old folks home across the river was getting flooded, kids playground had turned into a swimming pool, civil defence driving around on tractors and in boats (on the main street) looking for people in difficulty and watching out for the looters(who attacked the off licenses), firetrucks, police, bridges closed off, roads blocked by trucks and police, people in a mad dash to try find sandbags, some people just giving up, throngs of people watching the bridge waiting to see if it would collapse, Cars floating on the main road, cars completely submerged with lights still on and car alarms going off in orchestra from all directions, and army barracks sirens going off every 30mins throughout (meanwhile I was rescuing expensive computers and servers and shutting down power etc. in our office which was obliterated by over 4 ft of water, a total of 7ft from ground level)

So when I got several papers on the Saturday, I was surprised to see that while the Echo and the Examiner had massive coverage, in the other papers, Roy Keane's comments and Thierry Henry seemed to be more important.

Perhaps there was a delay in getting information out to be fair, given that we had no phones or internet etc., but I did overhear a lot of people making similar comments and several people passed similar remarks in photos of the devastation sent around by email and facebook.

Then a roof blew off an apartment building in Dublin, big story.

Felt like WW2 not being reported but Kilmichael Ambush was. How odd.

Conclusion: Like Kanye West said: "BRIAN COWEN DON'T CARE ABOUT CORK PEOPLE"

ballsymchugh

on a lighter note, there was a guy on newstalk earlier today, who said something along the lines of where the hell are the government to help us, all we have are the army and the county council.

dan_d

Have to agree. I'm a dub myself, but I suppose when there are floods in Dublin more houses are hit than down the country. Flooded fields look less disastrous that flooded houses......many city people don't realise what kind of an effect flooded fields has on the livelihood of farmers.
Just a thought.
What can the Gov do anyway, other than get in the way because there's always a trail of journalists and photographers running after them? The army are who you want....the nature of an army other than defense is to move large quantities of people around in short spaces of time in the most efficient manner possible under all conditions. Civil engineering as a discipline- bridge building etc, originated in the army (not necessarily ours, but in general!).
Don't mind the Gov, they can't do their own jobs, let alone anyone else's.

Morgans

I hate the what do you expect the government responses on boards. As if they have an unblemished record of competence to fall back upon.

But I suppose impromptu relief efforts by radio stations and social networking sites like here is the way to implement relief of a disaster. Dermot Ahern was pontificating on how Ireland was a republic yesterday. Yet the IFA are going to the EU rather than the government looking for relief. I havent heard Brendan Smith speak since the floods hit. I did hear the repeat of Micheal Ennis on newstalk this morning asking why should he be the one directing traffic through Gort.

I genuine believe that there is a bit of bad-news fatigue out there at the moment and the floods are just a little surreal. The apathy in the media and government to the Cork people without water for a week. The fact that the water is not receding quickly and populations are being told that there is more to come, yet there is very little urgency on part of the govt. If the people were ringing into Joe Duffy it might get some attention.

€10m?? €10m?? Stunning.

starbelgrade

Morgans wrote: »

If the people were ringing into Joe Duffy it might get some attention.

Joe only takes calls from 01 numbers.

Sleipnir

I can't believe that half the country floods, and it turns into an anti-Dublin thread!

I'm not saying that some of media haven't dropped the story or focussed on other stories but....that's what the media do. A few days of front page news and then they change to something else. That's just what happens.
Clerical abuse and cover-up which affected thousands has been the front page news for the past two days but it probably won't be tomorrow; Monday at the latest.

My colleague in work read out something about Facebook groups where the clerical abuse support group had 80 members and the "replay France" one had a few hundred thousand.

Sleipnir

starbelgrade wrote: »

Joe only takes calls from 01 numbers.

What nonsense. Sand that chip off your shoulder off will ya?
1/3 of the population of the country do live there!

starbelgrade

Sleipnir wrote: »

What nonsense. Sand that chip off your shoulder off will ya?
1/3 of the population of the country do live there!

EEEk ! THAT MANY?!!!

I'll just shut up so.

meathstevie

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Is there any discussion that can not be dragged down the same old road ? It's becoming a bit of a broken record.

What the government could have done is in the short term is anticipate a bit more. Based on weather forecasts the defence forces could have been involved a lot sooner to prepare emergency flood defences for example. Temporary flood barriers could have been constructed around water treatment plants aided by pumps to get rid of whatever seeps in, etc etc...

In the long term ? Hire a few Dutch civil engineers.

Lockstep

Connemara man here, by all accounts of friends and family, the government is doing it's best in Galway. Army is doing a stirling job amidst all the flooding.

Dannyboy83

Sleipnir wrote: »

I can't believe that half the country floods..........
...............1/3 of the population of the country do live there!

Sleipnir wrote: »

I can't believe that half the country floods, and it turns into an anti-Dublin thread!

eh....why does it have to be anti-Dublin specifically?
Why do Dubs always do this?

Its about the government/media, not Dublin. How are Dubs and Dublin city responsible for Leinster house or RTE? They're not. If the government were based in Limerick and the media still ignored significant goings on outside Limerick, it wouldn't be anti-Limerick, it would still be a thread about how screwed up the priorities in this country are.

Its about the way that everything is focused on one part of the country and the rest can be an information black hole at times.

Sleipnir wrote: »

What nonsense. Sand that chip off your shoulder off will ya?
1/3 of the population of the country do live there!

Indeed they do, and 2/3rds of the country lives outside there.
And 1/8th of the Country lives in Cork.
But again, it has nothing to do with that. I'm not sure why you even take offense at it????
Calm down and try to see it from a different angle.

Dannyboy83

Morgans wrote: »

€10m?? €10m?? Stunning.

This was a point that I didn't see addressed anywhere in the media, which I wanted to make people here aware of.

The scenario has been repeated in a number of different towns, but I'll just focus on one town in Cork, Bandon.

Insurers have said that many companies & properties locally will not be able to get flood insurance going forward. The payout was too big and the risk of a repeat session is too high. Any businesses which remain in the town (within a radius of most of the town) will be doing so at their own risk.
Thus, many businesses that were based there, which were/are good businesses, will either move out or shut down.
Other businesses which were untouched, cannot now purchase insurance cover anyway, so they are just evacuating and going to the city, or else just shutting down.
Some properties were not insured, or did not have the correct insurance and cannot afford to make reparations, thus the businesses based there will relocate or collapse.
Many of the properties in the town cannot even be properly repaired and will be shutting down. The famous hotel for example.


The town was already very hard hit by the recession and all the drama over the last 2 years. The inept council also installed parking metres and got rid of the free parking, which chased away whatever customers or consumers that were left.
The businesses which do remain behind are going to go down like dominoes now, as the town relies heavily on commuters and does not have a big enough population to sustain the many businesses that were there, despite running a failed weekend fest program on the run up to Xmas.
The town had a large Hungarian population, but because of the domino effect on the jobs which has already started, they are already leaving the town. Its likely now that the Hungarian shops there will simply wind up, as there will no longer be a sufficient density. The Polish shop there is already struggling, on its last legs I'd say, due to the exodus of Poles when the Celtic Pyramid collapsed. Before long, it will just be old people in the new retirement home, and a lot of empty residential and commercial property, undamaged or otherwise.

The town, despite being on the Western wing of the CASP, already had inadequate infrastructure, no railway/no dual carriageway/no fibre optics, inadequate connections to the city/airport and out west, no cinema, no swimming pool, sod all amenities.
Its really not worth living there anymore, and I'm moving back to the city in 3 weeks.

Not being dramatic, but I think the town has now crossed over a very troublesome threshold, which will be near impossible to cross back from over the next 9 years, unless some real assistance and attention is given by government.
But this is only 1 small link in a long chain.
Many parts of the whole region from the City down to Kerry and up to Galway have been hammered.

seclachi

dan_d wrote: »

Have to agree. I'm a dub myself, but I suppose when there are floods in Dublin more houses are hit than down the country. Flooded fields look less disastrous that flooded houses......many city people don't realise what kind of an effect flooded fields has on the livelihood of farmers.

Cork, Limerick and Galway arent just a bunch of green fields. I would imagine if Dublin was hit by a flood the similar amount of damage would be done as was to Cork as the water will only penetrate so far.

Tonnes of people down here are still without water, you dont really think what its like to be without water until you hear of it, its not just not being able to boil the kettle or have a shower, you can`t flush the toliet without water after all, and some cases people wont be able to run the heating. Now take into account all the elderly people in the city and its a real nightmare.

irish_bob

is very noticable this past week how every union head jumps at the opportunity to heap praise on the priceless public sector when discussing the floods , terribley cynical to try and make political hay at a time of such hardship for so many

Stroke Politics

If it's not in Dublin, it doesn't really exist.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxohQhBYC_0&feature=player_embedded

Sleipnir

Just to note, the government have said that the 10 million was an initial amount, more will be provided.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1128/weather.html

You can donate to the I.R.C. at Superquinn and Vodafone shops to help.

louisa200

Well I saw brian cowen get out of his helicopter at claregalway, so surely thats something.......................

Very few people realise, even with the ****ty news coverage, what has actually happened here in the west... not only have people lost everything, they cant get it back, they will never be insured again, their houses, which have already plummeted in value, are now worth nothing... a few roads cut off a sure what harm.. a few roads, the whole infrastructure and now, what is more important, public confidence has gone... a night of heavy rain, people wont go to cork or limerick or gort or especially claregalway and monivea cross, one of the most important veins in the galway road infrastructur (that is until the motorway opens sure then itll all be fine)

What can the government do.. sod all, same as they have done for every joe bloggs in this cuntry..... thanks for calling brian, now shut the door on your way out...............x

meathstevie

Lousiana 1927 by Randy Newman springs to mind....Ineffective government is the worst form of government.

Also the cynical carry on of the insurance companies is unreal. If they don't like taking a risk they shouldn't be in the business they're in at all. It's not like floods of this nature happen every year.

nesf

Honestly, Governments aren't as important when a disaster strikes as they are before it is. Setting up the proper mechanisms set up to distribute aid/support/whatever. Seriously, looking at Cork city, we can't actually complain that much. The army was out on day one doing superb work along with many other branches of the public service. There wasn't any confusion as to who was to do what, the city council had a preexisting group already set up for this eventuality and the organised between the various groups, army, Gardaí etc, how to get everything done.

The central Government in Dublin has little or no role to directly play in these situations. It's a local Government problem and the ideal person to be overseeing relief efforts is someone on the ground at the location not someone in an office half-way across the country.

nesf

Actually the most bizarre thing about the coverage was when the water was being turned back on for many homes in Cork city there was no mention of it on the news despite the Irish Times website having the story. Given a lot of older people wouldn't be following websites I thought it was a very odd omission.

Morgans

Sleipnir wrote: »

Just to note, the government have said that the 10 million was an initial amount, more will be provided.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1128/weather.html

You can donate to the I.R.C. at Superquinn and Vodafone shops to help.

Yes of course, when it was seen to everyone effected to be ridiculously low. This of course is being spun now "flexibility is a byword for the govt" Utter twaddle. This initial stab is a fair indication on how badly govt has underestimated the damage done. I have actually noticed an increase in the coverage on the news since this thread started - especially over the weekend.

efb

the pop of dublin is lightly less than 1 mill. RoI is about 4 mill. So its not 1/3, its about a 1/4

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

Honestly, Governments aren't as important when a disaster strikes as they are before it is. Setting up the proper mechanisms set up to distribute aid/support/whatever. Seriously, looking at Cork city, we can't actually complain that much. The army was out on day one doing superb work along with many other branches of the public service. There wasn't any confusion as to who was to do what, the city council had a preexisting group already set up for this eventuality and the organised between the various groups, army, Gardaí etc, how to get everything done.

The central Government in Dublin has little or no role to directly play in these situations. It's a local Government problem and the ideal person to be overseeing relief efforts is someone on the ground at the location not someone in an office half-way across the country.

Yes, I agree, in fact I would say that local government did quite well.
The response out here was very fast anyway, some of the guards cars were knackered when they could have been moved to high ground because they were out doing their thing.
(On a sidenote, one thing which really pissed me off was the fact that traffic were allowed to clog up the whole town, when they easily have been diverted to the bypass. Probably the worst traffic I've ever seen in the town. It made the whole clean up so much more difficult and most of the traffic was simply people coming down to see the damage)

But, leaving that aside, I agree with your point about the central government role being to prevent the disaster i.e. stage 1.
But isn't it then also their responsibility for recovery - stage 3, i.e. after the immediate clean up/local government have wrapped up on stage 2 ?

So far, I've heard nothing about stage 3, other than €10m will be available.
I am, of course, not allowing for the fact that the government are extremely slow and other catastrophes have popped up such as the clerical abuse, but in this type of situation, a quick response is vital.

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Yes, I agree, in fact I would say that local government did quite well.
The response out here was very fast anyway, some of the guards cars were knackered when they could have been moved to high ground because they were out doing their thing.
(On a sidenote, one thing which really pissed me off was the fact that traffic were allowed to clog up the whole town, when they easily have been diverted to the bypass. Probably the worst traffic I've ever seen in the town. It made the whole clean up so much more difficult and most of the traffic was simply people coming down to see the damage)

But, leaving that aside, I agree with your point about the central government role being to prevent the disaster i.e. stage 1.
But isn't it then also their responsibility for recovery - stage 3, i.e. after the immediate clean up/local government have wrapped up on stage 2 ?

So far, I've heard nothing about stage 3, other than €10m will be available.
I am, of course, not allowing for the fact that the government are extremely slow and other catastrophes have popped up such as the clerical abuse, but in this type of situation, a quick response is vital.

We're still in stage 2 and it's not at all clear yet just what stage 3 will involve (we've no accurate estimates of damage caused etc). I wouldn't expect stage 3 to really start until floodwaters recede in the Shannon area and the damage can be totted up.

Dannyboy83

nesf wrote: »

We're still in stage 2 and it's not at all clear yet just what stage 3 will involve (we've no accurate estimates of damage caused etc). I wouldn't expect stage 3 to really start until floodwaters recede in the Shannon area and the damage can be totted up.

I would have said that we were already in Stage 3 here, a lot of the damage seems to have been calculated since early last week, and there was a PDF published which listed the damage to UCC.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/media/Report-on-Major-Flood-Damage.pdf

I take your point tho, they probably need to have a final evaluation before they start allocating funds (which will probably be too late anyway)

nesf

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I would have said that we were already in Stage 3 here, a lot of the damage seems to have been calculated since early last week, and there was a PDF published which listed the damage to UCC.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/media/Report-on-Major-Flood-Damage.pdf

I take your point tho, they probably need to have a final evaluation before they start allocating funds (which will probably be too late anyway)

UCC is "public" essentially and won't need to be allocated funds in the same way as private household etc. We've 10 million as a band aid, the real money will come once they've an idea of the level of damage countrywide is.

ninty9er

I think the intial media coverage was quite strong, and over on the Limerick City forum there is criticism of "sensationalist and irresponsible" reporting, which was just a precaution. The worst is also yet to come for Limerick as the Atlantic will hit Spring Tide on Tuesday evening leaving nowhere for the floodwaters to empty.

The city has so far been visibly clear of any major threat of the Shannon bursting banks, but further upstream 2 buildings at UL are under constant observation and 1 is sandbagged (the logistics of sandbagging the other being imposible)

Those 2 buildings have been flooded, but not to any major extent, however it is expected that drains may have to be blocked and buildings closed for sanitation reasons on Tuesday evening if the tide does back up the river. There is one roundabout and about 20 of approx 2500 parking spaces under water. Two riverswide campus villages have pumps on standby as the water rises and the riverbank walk is under between 2ft and 6ft of water at points with some higher lying areas of the walk just clear. I really have to commend the work of the Buildings and Estates department in working on this.

I've heard an estimated cost to UCC of €50m including lost research, but that will more than likely rise. As for the relief aid from central government, as most here know I'm a member of said large party, so I'll commend the €2m farm aid package which is open NOW, and think that €10m was a good start given that there is no money, the public sector strike probably had some part in making the money available, so it wasn't a complete waste of time.

The €10m is designed to help people in the short term as mentioned by nesf, a band aid, the purpose isn't to repair damage or replace lost items, that cost is inconceivable, but that is what insurers are for, this money is to make sure that everyone affected can continue with their lives until their financial losses are assessed. Considering the numbers affected so far, I'd say €10m is quite reasonable.

Dannyboy83

FYI, Flood alerts issued in Kildare & Dublin

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1129/weather.html

starbelgrade

efb wrote: »

the pop of dublin is lightly less than 1 mill. RoI is about 4 mill. So its not 1/3, its about a 1/4

Yes but you have to allow for the inflationary ego factor.