The legacy of Fianna Fáil?

paddyland

When I heard that the roof had blown off a three year old apartment block in Glenamuck, it was the perfect metaphor for the boom years of Fianna Fáil and Bertie Ahern. Ten years of unbridled greed and gluttony, throwing up cheap rubbish all over the cityscape, ruining the environment, creating a transport nightmare, building on flood plains and green belt, all for nothing only tax breaks and get rich quick speculation for the Friends of Fianna Fáil. Then the roof blows off in the first ill wind, just like the bubble economy they created.

It seems that everything good in this country has been raped and squandered by that corrupt party and their supporters. The whole fundamental basis of that party is one of greed, that if a group of people club together and sell their souls, they can rape more than their fair share of the country's meagre resources, at the expense of their next door neighbour. Why should you have a cow and I have a cow, when I could have both cows and screw you? When diehards vote Fianna Fáil, that is fundamentally what they are voting for, despite anything they might say or even genuinely believe to the contrary.

My question is this: In eight decades of predominantly Fianna Fáil led governments, putting aside all the corruption and desecration of the country, can somebody please list for me the main achievements of that party in government over all that period of time? What did they build, what did they fund, what did they leave as a legacy? Because I'm damned if I can find one good thing, other than O'Malley introducing free education in the '60s. They seem to exist purely to channel all the country's resources towards a narrow sector of society, and for nothing of a greater good nature that doesn't involve a lucrative cash cow opportunity for some of their friends.

Pride Fighter

You are right OP. Fianna Fail will be forever known as the party that bankrupted Ireland 3 times. Hopefully they never get the chance to do it a 4th.

bmaxi

Pride Fighter wrote: »

You are right OP. Fianna Fail will be forever known as the party that bankrupted Ireland 3 times. Hopefully they never get the chance to do it a 4th.

The fact they were allowed to do it three times does not augur well.
The last demonstration of FF democracy:D, when they parachuted election candidates against the wishes of the local cumann yet received the support of the same local cumann, shows just how entrenched and obtuse FF support is.

prinz

Yeah, it's enough to make you wonder who voted them in.... repeatedly.:rolleyes:

Drakmord

Just proves that History tends to repeat itself!

mikemac

paddyland wrote: »

My question is this: In eight decades of predominantly Fianna Fáil led governments, putting aside all the corruption and desecration of the country, can somebody please list for me the main achievements of that party in government over all that period of time?

Jack Lynch was Taoiseach when the referendum to join the EEC was on.
And FF would have been involved in negotiating to get membership for years before this. That took years, Lemass first started making enquries officially in 1962

I'd say that's an achievement

Benhonan

I thought the smoking ban was a good call.

Dannyboy83

Fianna Fail presided over the illusion of wealth, which we now understand to have been a lie. Hindsight is 20/20 of course and now we understand that it was a lie.
But at the time, nobody wanted the "boom" (read: pyramid) to collapse, ........at one stage we were told we were the 2nd richest country in the world. There were not many journalists alerting us to the fact that Anglo, AIB etc. had alarming profits in excess of mortgage industry guidelines, rather they were celebrating the fact that we had such clever banks and companies, and we always got the contrast between "old Ireland" and "new Ireland"

People are well aware now that this has all been a horrible lie, and now we must all suffer the consequences of insane borrowing, regardless of whether we participated or not.
Irish people will always remember when you hit them in the pocket.
Fianna Fail have had to clean up their own mess this time, instead of letting somebody else (FG) do it for them like the last 2 times.

People were willing to vote back in an exposed Bertie Ahernia in 2007, regardless of tribunals, because they didn't want the mirage to fade, whether they understood it was a mirage or not.
Conversely, I think Brian Cowen could go and cure cancer tomorrow and Fianna Fail will still be destroyed at the polls.

hinault

My view is that the actions of FF politicians since 1979 has destroyed most peoples faith in the bodypolitic of this country.

As a result of corruption, mostly FF but not totally FF corruption, the electorate in this country have completely lost respect for politicians and the political system.

And that is a dangerous set of circumstances to be in because with the way things are going, none of the institutions (banks, politics, church) are trusted or respected.

This creates a vaccuum.

Darsad

Your only as good as your last Gig !

As we have an Ignoramus and a bufoon as first and deputy cant imagine
there will be much left in the way of credability or legacy by the time they are out !!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

hinault

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's what I was referring to.

The entire bodypolitic were prepared to go along with FF policies which were clearly crazy.
That's how disfunctional politics in this country has become.

Its expedient to stay stumm - even when the policies of the opposition party appear to be "successful" when you know all along that the "success" is built on sand/corruption.

hobochris

One of my grievances with FF is that the Government that is in today was never voted for by the people, I.e FF did not put forward Cowen as Taoiseach in the last election, It was Berty's government the people voted in, Cowen got the position of Taoiseach by sneaking in the back door.

Riskymove

hobochris wrote: »

One of my grievances with FF is that the Government that is in today was never voted for by the people, I.e FF did not put forward Cowen as Taoiseach in the last election, It was Berty's government the people voted in, Cowen got the position of Taoiseach by sneaking in the back door.

thats because of oue electoral system

we do not elect the Taoiseach, we elect our local TDS

its the TDs who then decide the Government and Taoiseach

Permabear

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rasper

but when FG/Lab take over it will just switch sides and the mercs and perks will just go their way instead , I've never and will never vote for anyone affilated to the main parties as I feel they're all fundamentally corrupt.
I blame our parish pump politics mentality and hate and despise most of our untalented polititions.
Hopefully when Ireland does bankrupt itself we'll be able to break down our system and start again, get real leaders into government and banish the nepotism to a failed state, my worst fear those is we may not bankrupt ourselves only continue on borrowing madly and when the rest of the world pick up the best of our next generation will just emirgrate like before with no intentions of coming back and the rest behind will be left with the same crap and loads of debt.
It was mentioned in a another thread that as long as we're ruled from Dublin by Irish people then we'll never move on, sadly I have to agree.

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Speak for yourself!

And BTW, the plasterers and bank managers still love 'em!

Martin 2

mikemac wrote: »

Jack Lynch was Taoiseach when the referendum to join the EEC was on.
And FF would have been involved in negotiating to get membership for years before this. That took years, Lemass first started making enquries officially in 1962

I'd say that's an achievement

These are achievements for Lynch and Lemass but not FF in general, in fact De Valera (FF leader 1926-59) was opposed to Ireland joining the EEC and it was only after his influence over FF ended that they could even contemplate EEC membership. In fact in the radio series Judging Dev, his grandson Eamonn O Cuiv TD stated that he believed that Dev voted against Irish accession in the 1973 referendum. It could be argued that had we not had FF governments from the late fifties to the early 70's then we could have joined the EEC at an earlier stage, thereby ending years of economic stagnation sooner.

Anyway, no mention of the legacy of FF is complete without an assessment of Eamon De Valera, I was going to try but his legacy is so vast I wouldn't know where to start (any takers?), overall in my opinion, his period of FF leadership represented a period of economic and social isolation and failure

.

juuge

Last week the justice minister Dermot Ahern said the hand ball incident in the Ireland France match sent out a bad example to the youngsters.
Is he conveniently forgetting the bad example he and his now proven corrupt political party (Fianna Fail) have given the youngsters. The majority of which now believe all politicians are gangsters! Nice one Minister! (Tosser):mad:

prinz

juuge wrote: »

Is he conveniently forgetting the bad example he and his now proven corrupt political party (Fianna Fail) have given the youngsters. The majority of which now believe all politicians are gangsters! Nice one Minister! (Tosser):mad:

In fairness there are much worse examples being set day in and day out in this country, and has been for years.

Shea O'Meara

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Labour ran a campaign 'the savage seven cuts', (remember the widow's pension etc.?) you may not recall as the media where showing little interest in the opposition. Also Labour and Fine Gael were indeed promising a continuation but were heavily in favour of putting money aside and investing for the future, (in education/health etc.).

Martin 2 wrote: »

Anyway, no mention of the legacy of FF is complete without an assessment of Eamon De Valera, I was going to try but his legacy is so vast I wouldn't know where to start (any takers?), overall in my opinion, his period of FF leadership represented a period of economic and social isolation and failure

Dev was a thieving C***.

Dev and family made a fortune on the patriotism of others using Ireland as the basis for a swindle, (The Irish Press).

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...ls-485691.html


Anyone who supports Fianna Fail, is either greedy, misinformed or criminally stupid.

T runner

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very true. Apparently Garrett Fitzgerald asked a prominent member of the FG front bench why they hadnt campaigned that FF had led the country to the brink of disaster. The apparent reason was a fear that Bertie would dub them as negative and this might scupper their chances!

rasper

T runner wrote: »

Very true. Apparently Garrett Fitzgerald asked a prominent member of the FG front bench why they hadnt campaigned that FF had led the country to the brink of disaster. The apparent reason was a fear that Bertie would dub them as negative and this might scupper their chances!

If the party of opposition were too fearful to speak out least their political opponents would put them down, well then I wouldn't want them leading either as they couldn't do their own "easier" roles in the first place.
I ' d say we have about 140 wasters in Leinster house alone each earning well in excess of a 100k so I suppose they're not total idiots

jank

prinz wrote: »

In fairness there are much worse examples being set day in and day out in this country, and has been for years.

Would you be kind enough to give us some examples?

Colonel Sanders

T runner wrote: »

Very true. Apparently Garrett Fitzgerald asked a prominent member of the FG front bench why they hadnt campaigned that FF had led the country to the brink of disaster. The apparent reason was a fear that Bertie would dub them as negative and this might scupper their chances!

This is a serious problem opposition will encounter

I remember telling people the country was on the slippery slope in 2007 and all I got in response was 'shur aren't we doing ok, FF have gotten us this far so why change things'

Bringing up the fact that I thought the economy was too reliant on construction, tax revenues would soon be under pressure etc got me laughed at. The same people who laughed at me and subsequently voted FF are now the most vocal on how the boom years were squandered etc

Opposition politicians faced the same dilemma. Imagine FG/Lab politician knocking on the door. The home owner is a block layer and his son a carpenter. Say to them "well you're fecked in the near future due to FF mismanagement. Anyhow don't forget me on polling day"

ArmaniJeanss

They deserve some credit for the Rural Electrification Program.

More recently they way they stood up to the Taxi Driver cartel in the 1990s and eventually broke it gets them some kudos.

paddyland

I have to beg to differ completely with you on that one. It is well known that the taxi cartel was an artificial creation of Bertie Ahern and Ivor Callely to ringfence votes in the North Dublin constituency, at a time when Bertie Ahern was trying to steamroll himself into pole position in politics. This was around the time he tried to shaft Tony Gregory too. Nothing was sacred in the race to the top.

As a result, people faced long queues every night for non existent taxis. This was a deliberate act of Bertie Ahern, for which he never faced recrimination.

Under the influence of the PDs, Bertie suddenly forgot he was the taxi driver's friend, and then went the complete opposite direction, flooding the industry with wholly unsuitable drivers and vehicles, resulting in today's shocking standards, the destitution of the good drivers, and a race to the bottom.

Fianna Fáil have done nothing for the taxi industry, only facilitate a cartel when it suited them, and replace it with complete rudderless anarchy when it didn't. FF facilitated the cartel, they didn't 'break' it.

Edit: I am conscious of the anti taxi people coming in and hijacking this thread, please remember it is an anti FF thread, not an anti taxi driver thread. I have no idea if we would have got a properly regulated taxi industry under FG or Labour, probably not much better. But there is no stretch of the imagination possible that will allow the fantasy that FF ever did anything good where taxis are concerned. As regards electricity, didn't the Shannon scheme arrive under WT Cosgrave? That was the beginning of rural electrification, let's not allow FF rob that one either.

ArmaniJeanss

Its a fair comment though if you go down that route than basically every political decision can be inverted (like the joining the EEC was earlier in the thread).

e.g., "they were hugely involved in getting the peace process to completion, kudos" can be responded to by "wouldn't have needed a peace process if FF members weren't running guns to the IRA in the 60s' or a hardcore "peace process was a total sellout of Irish nationalism anyway".

One persons 'good thing theyve done' is anothers persons 'they caused it in the first place' or 'it would have been done earlier if it wasnt for their procrastinating' or 'it shouldnt have been done at all as the money could have been spent on the most vulnerable in society'.

thebman

Our country seems to have been founded on getting one of our own in to run the show as it would be of more benefit to us and it has set everything up really for helping out mates and many in the country seem to view the state as a bottomless barrel of money that they should go to demand grants and funding and pay increases endlessly and if they refuse its because they are mean c***s and not because it would be wrong or the money isn't there. Sure just get in taxes from everyone else is the answer :rolleyes:

The state seems to be founded on being unsustainable. If that doesn't demonstrate it needs reform I don't know what it will take

We need reform and we need a popular right wing party to keep the left parties in balance. Our political spectrum is warped at the moment and we can all see what it has lead to.

FF are left, a warped corrupt version of left but left all the same. People say the banks weren't regulated but they were, by cozy FF appointed people that were told to let things slide. Its worse than no regulation, its the appearance of regulation and regulators ignoring obvious problems in the system they are supposed to be regulating. And its not just in banking!

Just look at FF's way of encouraging competition in energy/broadband markets. We'll just artificially increase the price using the regulator and then competition will be jumping to get into the market. So basically take from everyone and give to a few again.

No regulation would actually have been better as they wouldn't have had anyone to go to when it all fell in on itself. The government wouldn't have been involved in the decision making so wouldn't have an obligation (read: be blackmailed in) to bail them out.

paddyland

It was Mary Harney who coined the phrase "People have short memories." It was an incredibly insulting thing to say, par for the course for Harney, but also a correct observation. The whole ethic of most political parties, but FF in particular, is based on people not remembering the promises of the previous election, and therefore being sold any old twaddle at the next one.

It is a fact that most of the problems in society that FF try to dress up for electioneering purposes, are problems that are there because of FF in the first place, if for no other reason than simply that FF were in power for far longer than anyone else.

We cannot solve any of the problems that infest Irish society, for the simple reason that come every election time, FF manage to promise the sun, moon and stars, and stuff a bit of money down everyone's pants, and buy enough people off. That they take the money back every time seems to be forgotten. There is no problem in Irish society that FF never once promised to solve in one way or another, that was quickly forgotten as soon as was expedient. But the Irish people buy it every time.

Taxipete29

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

More recently they way they stood up to the Taxi Driver cartel in the 1990s and eventually broke it gets them some kudos.

The PDs, very little to do with FF. Misplaced Kudos

paddyland

paddyland wrote: »

My question is this: In eight decades of predominantly Fianna Fáil led governments, putting aside all the corruption and desecration of the country, can somebody please list for me the main achievements of that party in government over all that period of time? What did they build, what did they fund, what did they leave as a legacy? Because I'm damned if I can find one good thing, other than O'Malley introducing free education in the '60s. They seem to exist purely to channel all the country's resources towards a narrow sector of society, and for nothing of a greater good nature that doesn't involve a lucrative cash cow opportunity for some of their friends.

Returning to my first question, we are now on page three, and nobody has yet put forward a credible achievement of FF in eight DECADES of power, other than my own suggestion of free education under Donogh O'Malley, who seemed to release it without reference to the rest of his party, and another suggestion of Lemass leading us towards the EEC. I wouldn't give FF credit for rural electrification, WT Cosgrave started that.

IS THAT IT?

ArmaniJeanss

paddyland wrote: »

I wouldn't give FF credit for rural electrification, WT Cosgrave started that.

But it was continued under successive FF governments, you really are making a mockery of your thread if you argue this way as you can twist anything to support your initial argument.
e.g, it wasn't FFs idea but they supported it, continued to fund it,progressed it towards completion. But because it wasn't their original idea then they get no credit?
A huge bulk of Rural Electrification happened between 1937 and 1949 under EDeValera.

paddyland wrote: »

IS THAT IT?

Depending on your opinion of the Irish Constitution then this could be construed as a good FF thing.

Keeping neutral during WW2, was this good or bad? Some people hold our neutrality as important - others see the fact that it ultimately denied us being part of the Marsahll Aid Plan as being a disaster.

The stance they took during the Iraq invasion was arguably a masterly bit of realpolitik (Don't annoy the Americans by refusing them use of Shannon, don't ask them too many questions so you can't be accused of facilitating bad stuff). Helped keep the US government sweet towards us but plenty of people will have construed it as wrong and cowardly and an absolute disgrace.

I think you are taking a too simplistic view of the nature of politics and governance.... its probably possible to argue that no government anywhere has ever done anything completely worthwhile.

ninty9er

hobochris wrote: »

One of my grievances with FF is that the Government that is in today was never voted for by the people, I.e FF did not put forward Cowen as Taoiseach in the last election, It was Berty's government the people voted in, Cowen got the position of Taoiseach by sneaking in the back door.

Brian Cowen was elected by majproty of the Dáil as every other Taoiseach has been. He is also the person credited(blmaed) within the party for winning the 2007 General Election as Bertie was too busy dealing with personal issues.

He could have engineered an election at any time over the last 15 months to get out of the ****, but he hasn't, he is continuing to do what he believes is right for the country, and as much as an election would be bad for Fianna Fáil, it would be bad for the country too. I've rarely seen someone so committed to their public duty as Biffo. There's no point arguing otherwise, because he'd have infinitely more time with his family, much less stress and retain all the fringe benefits of a former Taoiseach, as well as a TDs salary and a leaders allowance.

Martin 2 wrote: »

These are achievements for Lynch and Lemass but not FF in general, in fact De Valera (FF leader 1926-59) was opposed to Ireland joining the EEC and it was only after his influence over FF ended that they could even contemplate EEC membership. In fact in the radio series Judging Dev, his grandson Eamonn O Cuiv TD stated that he believed that Dev voted against Irish accession in the 1973 referendum. It could be argued that had we not had FF governments from the late fifties to the early 70's then we could have joined the EEC at an earlier stage, thereby ending years of economic stagnation sooner.

Go do some research, we were too dependent on Britain for exports and DeGaulle was opposed to their entry, meaning it wasn't possible for us to go in earlier.

• National roads infrastructure: some behind schedule and overbudget, some ahead of schedule and under-budget, but massively superior to what was there in 1997.
• SSIA: yes it had its negatives, but overall it took money out of an overinflated economy, that was a move to curb the excesses.
• The negotiation of the Contisitutional Treaty (subsequently lost in France and Holland) was mediated by the Irish Government.
• Smoking ban: mentioned above:
• Transport 21: For all the mockery, this showed extreme foresight as it enveloped the money so that regardless of who was in power it had to be spent as outlined in the original plan.
• Road Safety - take a look at the figures!
• The Irish Nationality and Citizenship referendum, saving us a fortune on socaial welfare payments, albeit a little late in the day.
• Public transport: Luas was commissioned in 1998, busses and trains have undergone immense investment.
• Airports: Haven't been to Cork for a while, but Dublin and Shannon are practically unrecognisable from what they were 15 years ago.

Okay, maybe you don't like what the money was spent on, and as a matter of opinion you can contend that Fianna Fáil squadered the boom, the fact is that more investment has gone into national infrastructure over the past 10 years than at any time in the history of the state.

And if it isn't quite clear from the above, yes, I am a member of Fianna Fáil.

Lockstep

paddyland wrote: »

My question is this: In eight decades of predominantly Fianna Fáil led governments, putting aside all the corruption and desecration of the country, can somebody please list for me the main achievements of that party in government over all that period of time? What did they build, what did they fund, what did they leave as a legacy? Because I'm damned if I can find one good thing, other than O'Malley introducing free education in the '60s. They seem to exist purely to channel all the country's resources towards a narrow sector of society, and for nothing of a greater good nature that doesn't involve a lucrative cash cow opportunity for some of their friends.

LeMass was pretty good in fairness; brought in the 60s boom.

Also; the Luas.

old boy

young 99er, all of what you say fianna failure has done has been funded by the eu, i could say more but i am an old boy with sense.

ninty9er

old boy wrote: »

young 99er, all of what you say fianna failure has done has been funded by the eu, i could say more but i am an old boy with sense.

The EU funded the smoking ban and road safety improvements? I could say more, but if Brian Cowen said the sky was blue you'd disagree just because he's leader of Fianna Fáil, so I won't bother.

brianthebard

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But it was continued under successive FF governments, you really are making a mockery of your thread if you argue this way as you can twist anything to support your initial argument.
e.g, it wasn't FFs idea but they supported it, continued to fund it,progressed it towards completion. But because it wasn't their original idea then they get no credit?
A huge bulk of Rural Electrification happened between 1937 and 1949 under EDeValera.



Depending on your opinion of the Irish Constitution then this could be construed as a good FF thing.

Keeping neutral during WW2, was this good or bad? Some people hold our neutrality as important - others see the fact that it ultimately denied us being part of the Marsahll Aid Plan as being a disaster.

Ireland was not excluded from Marshall aid.

ArmaniJeanss

brianthebard wrote: »

Ireland was not excluded from Marshall aid.

I think we received loans rather than direct aid, so we had a different commitment to repayment. Whilst officially everyone was eventually supposed to repay it was accepted that those countries under Marshall Aid would never repay (they didn't) whereas those with Marshall Loans like us had a repayment schedule, though I'm not sure whether we did repay or not in the end. Its bloody complicated

I think its a tangent from my point though, my boring point being that if you start from a position of 'X political party has never done anything positive for its country' as the OP has done thats it very difficult to disprove.
As almost every good idea will either be a) traceable in its roots back to someone else, b) a fix to a previous bad idea of the party, c) why didnt they do it sooner or d) have had some negative consequences as well.

X Ray

I supported FF and was a member for years, I believe it is now beyond repair though. The corruption is so deep that is cannot now be saved. The country needs to move on as quickly as possible.

Dannyboy83

bmaxi

ninty9er wrote: »

The EU funded the smoking ban and road safety improvements? I could say more, but if Brian Cowen said the sky was blue you'd disagree just because he's leader of Fianna Fáil, so I won't bother.

Why are there huge signs on our major roads informing us that much of the funding came from the EU?
Oh and actually the sky is not blue.

Colm R

ninty9er wrote: »

• National roads infrastructure: some behind schedule and overbudget, some ahead of schedule and under-budget, but massively superior to what was there in 1997.

The National Road Infrastructure has improved dramatically. But this is a given and is needed and expected. Any other country would have expected a lot more. The legacy here is that at the end of 2009, there is still no contiuous motorway connecting any city in Ireland. The legacy here is while its welcome, it should have been implemented years ago.

ninty9er wrote: »

• SSIA: yes it had its negatives, but overall it took money out of an overinflated economy, that was a move to curb the excesses.

When it matured, it was spend spend spend. FF are not entirely responsible for that, but they did encourage people to buy houses as it was only going to go up. A lot of peoples SSIA's (used as deposits) are now gone.

ninty9er wrote: »

• The negotiation of the Contisitutional Treaty (subsequently lost in France and Holland) was mediated by the Irish Government.

Yes it was, and credit is due to the government on this. But it did fail.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Smoking ban: mentioned above:

Yes - and credit to the government and Michael Martin.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Transport 21: For all the mockery, this showed extreme foresight as it enveloped the money so that regardless of who was in power it had to be spent as outlined in the original plan.

mmm. For all the money we had in the boom, we had two light rail tracks. Public Transport is an embarrassment in this country. We can talk about many things here, but I will pick one - "Integrated Ticketing". Failure.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Road Safety - take a look at the figures!

Agreed, it is improving. Thankfully.

ninty9er wrote: »

• The Irish Nationality and Citizenship referendum, saving us a fortune on socaial welfare payments, albeit a little late in the day.

Agreed.

ninty9er wrote: »

• Public transport: Luas was commissioned in 1998, busses and trains have undergone immense investment.

Like above, I don't agree with you here. Lets pick something else this time - "Real Time Information".

ninty9er wrote: »

• Airports: Haven't been to Cork for a while, but Dublin and Shannon are practically unrecognisable from what they were 15 years ago.

Cork has a wonderful airport now, albeit years too late. There is a lot of bitterness in Cork Airport, and to how it was treated through the years. Dublins second terminal is also years too late. And Shannon is highly dependent on the war on terrorism.

old boy

ninty9er wrote: »

The EU funded the smoking ban and road safety improvements? I could say more, but if Brian Cowen said the sky was blue you'd disagree just because he's leader of Fianna Fáil, so I won't bother.

i do not care who is leader of any party, if you bothered to look thro my posts you would have seen my opinion of other party leaders, an advantage of living in a democracy is being able to voice ones opinions, also one advantage of being old and grey, is one has seen and heard all the type and tripe, plus having the wisdom ? to seperate the wheat from the chaff.

paddyland

Hurrah for the smoking ban, the best piece of legislation ever to come out of this country.

Funnily enough, it costs nothing to implement. Perhaps we lose a little in revenue, but to hell with that, we gain it back in the health system.

It is legislation that would have come in anyway. It was nice to be ahead of most of the pack just once, and shows that Ireland could actually lead the way on so many issues, instead of always trailing in last and screaming.

Mickey Martin, THE shrewdest man in the FF cabinet today, there's a man who looks much further ahead than any of his colleagues. He gained an enormous personal kudos with this, at practically no cost to the exchequer or to his department. It also meant he could see out his tenure in health with the spotlight taken off all the other glaring inadequacies in that department, which existed under his tenure just as much as Harney or anyone else.

This guy also managed to be Mr. Good Guy during the Lisbon negotiations. And he seems to have an unwitting ability to keep his nose clean, and remain totally media savvy. He is not over exposed in the media, but seems to have the balance just right, appearing seldom, and strictly only when he can look good. He is an unnervingly cool debater too.

I was going to mention the smoking ban earlier, but I felt it was too much of a personal bandwagon for Martin, and not a wholly neutral thing. I can see Martin gaining the leadership of FF. He is too far ahead of anyone else. He remains an astute operator when all else are scrambling around in panic. It remains to be seen what he would do with the leadership if he got it. Ireland's history is littered with ambitious leaders who hadn't a clue what to do when they attained the leadership.

IF he presided over a ruthless tooth and nail cleanout of that party, and then masterminded a complete and utter overhaul of the jaded and inefficient political system, numbers of seats, voting, the whole lot, then he could write himself a genuine political legacy. If not, then he is a complete waste of years just like all the other FF wasters down the decades.

rcunning03

prinz wrote: »

Yeah, it's enough to make you wonder who voted them in.... repeatedly.:rolleyes:

My thoughts exactly!

zootroid

kickoutthejams wrote: »

LeMass was pretty good in fairness; brought in the 60s boom.

Also; the Luas.

Didn't the luas cost something like 800 million and go way over budget?

Pretty expensive piece of infrastructure for two lines that don't even meet, and serve a very small portion of Dublin's population. I would love to see similar infrastructure projects completed in other countries to see just how expensive it was. But the fact that it went way over budget and the lines don't meet speaks volumes.

prinz

zootroid wrote: »

Didn't the luas cost something like 800 million and go way over budget?
Pretty expensive piece of infrastructure for two lines that don't even meet, and serve a very small portion of Dublin's population. I would love to see similar infrastructure projects completed in other countries to see just how expensive it was. But the fact that it went way over budget and the lines don't meet speaks volumes.

+1, especially when you consider, I think it is Bordeaux, where a similar system was constructed by the same company. Only they started after Dublin, finished before, it cost less, for a much bigger system of tracks/routes.

rcunning03

prinz wrote: »

+1, especially when you consider, I think it is Bordeaux, where a similar system was constructed by the same company. Only they started after Dublin, finished before, it cost less, for a much bigger system of tracks/routes.

Anyone know the real reasons why that is? Did the French trample over property rights to get it achieved that quickly and cheaply? or is it really just a case of us being completely run by corrupt Paddies?

prinz

rcunning03 wrote: »

Anyone know the real reasons why that is? Did the French trample over property rights to get it achieved that quickly and cheaply? or is it really just a case of us being completely run by corrupt Paddies?

Bit of both. I know in France the state gets what the state wants. If they say they're building a motorway through your village you can complain until you're blue in the face :pac: I quite like the system they run. It means things get done, and none of this NIMBY-ism.

rasper

Originally Posted by prinz
Yeah, it's enough to make you wonder who voted them in.... repeatedly.


My thoughts exactly!



Or the 40% of registered voters who didnt bother their arse even to vote