'extreme child rearing' - opinions???

fairygodmother2

hi every1, i have a friend who has a 20 mth old son, she comes from what you could describe as a 'liberal' background
he is a vegetarian and is basicaly vegan due to medical reasons, she insists on feeding him orgainic stuff (she is concerned that additives and preservatives may impact on his hyperactivity levels!!!!) the kid has never watched tv (dvds included) as theres none in the house, she is under the impression that tv programmes 'numb' a childs mind and that ads do even worse damage. She wont accept toys based on tv characters or corporate images (i.e. thomas the tank engine) - as you can imagine, gettin pressies for him is damn near impossible
while on the subject of pressies, there is no santa in the house because she says that lying to her child is morally wrong, even for 'magic' or 'wonder'.... christmas is not celebrated, so no fake turkey or tree for this boy!

i dont have children myself (and i am aware that alternative childrearing methods exist) but in my eyes shes a little extreme im just looking for opinions on this?

regards
FGM2

Treora

Ouch, tough one. http://www.thinkgeek.com has some interesting kids toys that your friend might approve. When the kid grows a little you could be the family friend that introduces salt and sugar into the diet (you will have to use mind tricks to keep the child from realising it was you). If you want a excuse for celebrating December you can use the solstice rational that atheists use (http://www.FFRF.org).

Perhaps your friend is right or not, either way if you comment you will risk seriously damaging your relationship. Ireland is fiercely matricarchal and the greatest expression of that is "don't tell me how to raise my child", where as in Switzerland and Sweden they have national civic service of which a part of it is a parental training course (optional I think).

Your friend appears to be to be rejecting the ills of society via her child, but he will never be able to deal with reality if he doesn't encounter it in a protected environment where he can ask questions of his mum about things he sees on TV. And it will be tough for him to relate to school mates.

nesf

You get people who buy into all kinds of nonsense when it comes to parenting. Best you can do is nod and grin politely or if you are outspoken like me quietly inform them of the scientific/logical/whatever evidence against whatever garbage they've dreamt up is.

Though if you want to stay on speaking terms you may not want to follow my example!

Sleipnir

No Christmas? That's going to be one resentful teenager!

nesf

Oh and on present ideas:

Eh, get him one of the starter Duplo sets. They're generic/non-branded and if the mother has a problem with Lego then, really I just recommend making better friends!

fasterkitten

fairygodmother2 wrote: »

i dont have children myself (and i am aware that alternative childrearing methods exist) but in my eyes shes a little extreme im just looking for opinions on this?

regards
FGM2

Why? It's really none of your business. While you, or I, or anyone else may not choose to follow the same methods, she is taking a considered approach and obviously has the child's best interests at heart. There's nothing you can do about this situation, nor should you try.

nesf

fasterkitten wrote: »

Why? It's really none of your business. While you, or I, or anyone else may not choose to follow the same methods, she is taking a considered approach and obviously has the child's best interests at heart. There's nothing you can do about this situation, nor should you try.

And if the mother's idea of the child's best interests were to feed them McDonalds twice a day every day would you think she shouldn't say/do anything? Friends are entitled to their opinions and shouldn't feel afraid to share them if a parent can't handle someone as close as a friend having an opinion on how they raise their child then they've serious issues they need to sort out.

AnonoBoy

I grew up with no TV for years. Hardly what I'd term 'extreme' parenting. Non-TV character games or toys? Not hard to find. Hobby shops and gadget shops are full of these things.

As for insisting on feeding him organic food (even if her reasoning behind it may be off) well it's hardly going to harm him now is it? You might be slightly worried about the child getting its proper dietary requirements but if she's sensible and knows what she's doing then he'll be fine. I have friends who were raised vegetarian and never suffered for it.

The only thing I'd think is a bit extreme is denying the kid Christmas (presuming that it's not because they're raising him in a different non-Christian faith)

Everybody doesn't have to conform to how you think a child should be reared. I bet you'd object to some of the things I don't allow my children to do.

LegacyUser

Try the Early Learning Centre for presents. Most parents think they are doing their best for their child.

pickarooney

There's nothing really extreme about any of that. It's not like the kid is working in a mercury mine 14 hours a day or surviving on what he can gather in the forest. I'm not sure how you would construe her feeding him organic vegetables as a negative thing, particularly if he has recognised medical problems related to diet?

It's a bit narrow-minded to say that TV numbs the brain - the majority of the garbage on there does, admittedly, but there's plenty of entertaing, educational stuff out there. Again though, it won't do the child any harm not to watch cartoons as long as he's stimulated properly in other areas.

Christmas... sounds a bit like someone had a few bad experiences and is, perhaps unwittingly, taking it out on the child somewhat. Or she might just not be a Christian.

fasterkitten

nesf wrote: »

And if the mother's idea of the child's best interests were to feed them McDonalds twice a day every day would you think she shouldn't say/do anything? Friends are entitled to their opinions and shouldn't feel afraid to share them if a parent can't handle someone as close as a friend having an opinion on how they raise their child then they've serious issues they need to sort out.

Apples and oranges. Shoveling junk food into a child is not the same thing as feeding them an organic diet and limiting access to TV.

This is not a serious issue. This is a 'friend' believing they have the right to impose their own views on childrearing on someone else. Friends and families may be entitled to have an opinion - whatever that really means - but apart from mentioning their 'concerns' they have no right to expect anything other than being told to mind their own business and an end to the friendship.

nesf

fasterkitten wrote: »

Apples and oranges. Shoveling junk food into a child is not the same thing as feeding them an organic diet and limiting access to TV.

This is not a serious issue. This is a 'friend' believing they have the right to impose their own views on childrearing on someone else. Friends and families may be entitled to have an opinion - whatever that really means - but apart from mentioning their 'concerns' they have no right to expect anything other than being told to mind their own business and an end to the friendship.

If her friend would end a friendship for someone disagreeing politely with how their raise their child then her friend is an idiot to treat friends so carelessly.

fasterkitten

nesf wrote: »

If her friend would end a friendship for someone disagreeing politely with how their raise their child then her friend is an idiot to treat friends so carelessly.

How she hypothetically may or may not treat her friends isn't the issue. I'm not sure what the relevance of that particular remark is.

Das Kitty

It would be by no means my way of parenting, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the mother is doing. She's doing her utmost to raise her child in accordance with her own ethics and everything she is doing is what she (currently) strongly believes is right for the child and his place in the world.

Sure he'll miss out on Christmas, but if they were a non-Christian background family and this was the case no one would have a problem with it.

She doesn't want him watching TV, em so what. Lots to do besides.

He's eating a vegan diet, what of it as long as it's meeting his nutritional needs?

Seriously, raise your own kids how you see fit and let your friend raise hers.

smelltheglove

The friend most likely has her reasons for doing what she is doing. I would be slightly worried about the child being bullied later on for his differences but only time will tell in that sense. Personally I find a lot of childrens tv programs very educational, they are not how they used to be. For example, through Dora and Diego my children are learning spanish words, the 3 yr old counts along with them in spanish. Vocab in children is a lot better these days thanks to some of these programs, my 3 yr old has a much wider range of vocab than her 7 yr old sister had at that age.

Possibly you could discuss with your friend if you could get him some childrens educational programs on dvd, that way she can still limit his tv by only allowing him watch what she wants him to watch. As we speak my child is singing along to the wonder pets a program that teaches kids about helping others and is full of music to keep them interested, putting long words into song, a method that has recently been picked up on by many, it has been said that children learn a lot more through music and song.

fairygodmother2

AnonoBoy wrote: »

The only thing I'd think is a bit extreme is denying the kid Christmas (presuming that it's not because they're raising him in a different non-Christian faith)

yea they're non christians and celebrate a form of summer solstice, however, treora, i found the FFRF website you mentioned a bit strange (ron reagan snr. was responsible for the latest mass 'christianisation' of america)...

as for tv being eductional, this is not something she buys and iv very adament and outspoken about it.she feels tv is used for mass marketing,shaping the mindset of the younger generations and also for the pure baby sitting of the child. believe me iv heard all the arguements!
as for other activities, im not worried about the kid being understimulated - he knows all his colours, numbers and letters and is amazingly articulate for a 20mth old (he's also a whizz with a map )

i think i was picked up alittle wrong, im not asking should i challenge her on how she raises her child whether i agree or not, its just that i am aware that these methods seem radically against the norm and am looking for experience/opinions on this

Regards
FGM2

smelltheglove

Well on the point of tv for mass marketing, the cbeebies channel is quite educational with no adverts.

I wouldnt agree with her ways myself but each to their own and that I would just be slightly concerned about the child being subjected to bullying, I had friends at school that had no cable, I know they could watch movies but they missed out ont he friends era and home and away and neighbours which were the big ones when I was in school and it irritated them honestly. They were quite outspoken these sisters so wouldnt have been bullied but they loved watching tv at others houses.

stovelid

That's not such 'parenting' as 'projection of beliefs onto child'.

nesf

stovelid wrote: »

That's not such 'parenting' as 'projection of beliefs onto child'.

Well, that is what parents do. Effectively. Doesn't work too well, as any parent of young teenagers would tell you..

stovelid

nesf wrote: »

Well, that is what parents do. Effectively. Doesn't work too well, as any parent of young teenagers would tell you..

So the OP's mate is guaranteed to rear a carnivorous, FF-voting property developer....

nesf

stovelid wrote: »

So the OP's mate is guaranteed to rear a carnivorous, FF-voting property developer....

Almost certainly. Mine's going to grow up and join Labour, I just know it... :eek:

PullOutMethod

No TV / DVDs and organic food ?
Sounds like dedicated parents to me.
It takes a heck of alot of effort to prepare food organically.
It is also tough to stimulate toddlers 24 7 without electronic gadgetry.

I dont agree with the Santa one, but on the other hand their kids will never experience the crushing disappointment and realise there was a conspiracy.

Nevyn

If the celebrate summer solstice the maybe they celebrate winter solstice too.

I know kids who are reared that way, wouldn't be how I would do it I understand the thinking behind it and respect her right to rear her child as she see's best and as long as the child is healthy and thriving then that is what counts, so what if you consider how she is doing it be to eccentric.

shell42970

fairygodmother2 wrote: »

am looking for experience/opinions on this

Regards
FGM2

Hi fairygodmother2, My experience: My daughter (now 19) wasn't allowed to watch commercial television, ate a whole-foods diet (she chose to become a vegetarian when she was 14 and enjoys excellent health), and was not allowed to play with Barbies or most character-based toys (she loved Duplos and Playmobil). When she was 8, she was teased by a classmate for not knowing who the characters in the cartoon "Rugrats" were, but it blew over after a week, and she survived it unscathed. She scored in the top 1% of the US population on her college SATs (Scholastic Aptitude Test) and is now enrolled, on scholarship, in an honors program of one of the Big Ten universities of that country. She has no resentments or regrets that she was raised as she was - on the contrary, if she chooses to have children one day, she plans to repeat in her own parenting much of what her dad and I did with her. My husband and I are raising our 14 month old son very similarly - more relaxed in some ways (he ate chocolate before his first birthday *gasp!*) and more strict in others (we do not own a TV). You may find that your friend relaxes in some of her militancy as her son grows. As my daughter got older, I gave her more control over which choices she made when she was outside our home, or shopping with her own money. Sometimes she'd choose to watch TV while at her friends' houses, and other times, she'd choose to go quietly read in another room, instead. She had a great circle of friends and it didn't bother them a bit if she wasn't interested in their show. My opinion: I believe a lot of parents direct their "extremism" down the wrong avenues. A child is better served in parenting that nails down diet, exercise (I joined Curves with my daughter when she was 12 and we worked out together for 5 years), education, and exposure (I can't stand seeing kids at R-rated movies), than they are by the latest Wii, the most hip runners, and the most convenient dinners.

Monkey61

While I think the no Christmas/Santa thing is extreme (I am biased because I love that stuff though), I suppose as non-Christians it is only natural that they would do that.

The no-TV thing is a brilliant idea I think. I'm sure it can be educational...but I think it is clutching at straws to say that it is in any way necessary. How difficult is it to talk to your child? And read to them? That is how my children one day will have a brilliant vocabulary, not from watching Cbeebies.

cormie

Just imagine this on a larger, worldwide scale and how much better off and healthier the planet and its inhabitants would be. It's idealistic, but it's really not that hard to achieve, in fact, it's just going back to basics and what was the case for children years ago.

They would be fed on organically grown local produce, which you can't really beat for nutritional value. Yes there has been research done that shows organic food has no advantage, but this research is not much to go by as the long term effects of pesticides etc haven't been proven as they haven't been around long enough. If we all had a choice between sprayed and organic foods, I'm sure we'd all pick the organic. Just incase and in most cases it tastes better

TV is very influential on children as well as adults, it exposes them to ideas and concepts they may not be able to understand completely and will be lead in a way that has no advantage to their livelihood. There are many ways to keep a child entertained with no need for technology. Art, books and certain toys will nurture the child's creativity and more and the child is more likely to be active and get essential exercise.

The vegetarian and vegan diet, as long as it's done properly will provide the child with a much healthier source of nutrients without the risk of exposing them to the many disadvantages of badly produced animal products. It will also increase the likelihood of a greater level of compassion and consideration for all living things.

Is it extreme to picture the world in harmony with great health and no corporate influences on our children? No desire for material things or designer labels, no wanting of things like McDonalds, Coca Cola, sugar and additive laced sweets. Simply being and living with what is natural. This may be idealistic, but it isn't extreme. In fact, you can't really get less extreme.

I wouldn't view Santa Clause as lying, the magic of Christmas when you were a child is amazing as is all magic.

Unfortunately to raise a child like this today will be quite difficult, as has been mentioned, there may be problems at school etc but it can't be denied that if this was indeed the norm, the world as a whole would greatly improve. Every parent wants the best for their child and it's extremely hard to keep on top of everything but if you do what you can then you are doing the best you can and that's all that matters and the child will feel this. As long as your friend and their child aren't letting their ego get to them and can still accept other people the way they are, not viewing one as right and one as wrong, then it shouldn't be a problem. The whole world isn't going to suddenly change but taking steps when they are ready to be taken by each of us and our children will benefit the world as a whole.

metrovelvet

I dont know how extreme it is. It seems like she is trying to keep her child pure and uncontaminated. If I were able, I would also only feed the child organic foods. I dont believe in the vegan diet for kids. That I think crosses the line. They need meat and dairy. Even for developing mouth muscles from chewing and getting calcium for strong healthy teeth. What concerns me about this kind of parenting, is the child becomes an extension of the parent, and not an extension of the child him or herself. I know we all impose our values on our children, and to some extent we have to since it is our job to teach them values, but it would seem to me at least, that you have to let them develop theirs too.

I dont get the abolishment of characters? What is that about?

I am suspicious of most forms of puritanism, even secular puritanism, but we dont critisize the Amish for how they raise their kids, so when I read the OPs post, I think "why not?" Its much better than how many other people are raising their kids on chicken nuggets and crisp sandwiches.

cormie

metrovelvet wrote: »

They need meat and dairy.

They really don't, there is an abundance of foods now available in Ireland that can viably replace the need for meet and dairy in our diets. I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a debate on eating animal produce but it's still possible to get perfectly healthy, level results from any medical tests on a vegan diet Unfortunately a lot of vegans jump into eating a purely vegan diet based on their ethical stance with animal farming without researching the required substitutes first and a lot get sick as a result, giving a picture that a vegan diet is an unhealthy one.

eviltwin

I'd never dare tell any parent how they should raise their child. Yeah there are some things I wouldnt dream of doing myself but as long as the kid is not being put at risk then I dont really think its anyone's business.

I'm a very laid back parent myself and I know probably a lot of what I do make some people raise their eyebrows - I would be pretty miffed if anyone were to think they had the right to comment on it.

Different strokes for different folks and once the kids are okay who are any of us to judge?

pickarooney

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont believe in the vegan diet for kids.

OP wrote:

he is a vegetarian and is basicaly vegan due to medical reasons

It doesn't, on the face of it, appear to be a values issue.

nesf

cormie wrote: »

They really don't, there is an abundance of foods now available in Ireland that can viably replace the need for meet and dairy in our diets. I'm sure nobody wants this to turn into a debate on eating animal produce but it's still possible to get perfectly healthy, level results from any medical tests on a vegan diet Unfortunately a lot of vegans jump into eating a purely vegan diet based on their ethical stance with animal farming without researching the required substitutes first and a lot get sick as a result, giving a picture that a vegan diet is an unhealthy one.

Indeed. However I have had vegan friends of mine (people really into it and who do a lot of research on how to do it right) saying that vegan from birth isn't a great idea if you aren't going to breastfeed. I don't remember what scientific reason they gave (they had one but the chat was a few years back, so I've forgotten it) but there's something in breastmilk that's impossible to replace in a vegan diet.

But yeah, the usual problem with kids on a vegan diet is that the parents don't understand how to do it properly. Older kids anyway can have a perfectly healthy diet as vegans so long as their parents know what they are doing.

cormie

I've never heard of breastfeeding being against the ethos of Vegans at all myself Surely you can't get much more natural than breastfeeding. The mothers milk is full of things to help their young specifically, it's the same for animals, their milk is for their offspring, not for coco pops to make the milk chocolatey :P

nesf

cormie wrote: »

I've never heard of breastfeeding being against the ethos of Vegans at all myself Surely you can't get much more natural than breastfeeding. The mothers milk is full of things to help their young specifically, it's the same for animals, their milk is for their offspring, not for coco pops to make the milk chocolatey :P

Oh no! They were very much pro-breastfeeding for vegan children! What they were saying was that it's impossible to provide all the nutrition breastmilk provides with vegan alternatives if you don't breastfeed. I'm not sure how accurate this would be but they seemed to know their stuff on the area.

metrovelvet

Aside from breastfeeding [which is still technically a dairy product so I dont know how vegans include this in the diet] its important for them to eat meat for chewing, developing mouth muscles for speech etc. At least according to the PHN. Makes sense to me.

nesf

metrovelvet wrote: »

Aside from breastfeeding [which is still technically a dairy product so I dont know how vegans include this in the diet] its important for them to eat meat for chewing, developing mouth muscles for speech etc. At least according to the PHN. Makes sense to me.

You can't chew properly with non-meat foods?

Vegans not being against breastfeeding makes perfect sense if you look into the moral reasoning behind the diet. It's got nothing to do with "dairy products" in general but how they are "made."

metrovelvet

Apparantly they need the meat to chew on as it is a bit tougher than non meat foods so that the muscles can develop. She said without meat it can slow speech development or seriously affect it, so its not just about nourishment. But, even if I were vegiterarean or whatever, I would still give my son meat. Even my brother who yells at me at Christmas and calls me sociopathic as I knife into the turkey says he would give his kids [at least small ones] meat - but as ethically stomachable as possible [ as in free range- grass fed and whatever else they say is ok in california hokey pokey land.]

cormie

I wouldn't be too sure what would substitute for vegan babies if they weren't being breastfed myself.

Metrovelvet, a mothers breast milk is a lot different than consuming the milk of another animal, which was intended for that animals own offspring. Sure if that were the case, I guess the most extreme vegans would be anti pregnancy at the risk of their being trace of breast milk in the genes from perhaps generations ago which would then be passed to the baby through the umbilical cord :P

As for the chewing, there's millions of foods in the world that require chewing and are vegan

Nevyn

I know a few kids who have been reared as vegetarians and they don't have speech issues,
two of them are utter chatter boxes.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

I now a few kids who have been reared as vegetarians and they don't have speech issues,
two of them are utter chatter boxes.

Well I also know kids who have never been vaccinated and haven't caught anything but that doesn't mean it cant happen and that it isn't against standard medical advice.

nesf

metrovelvet wrote: »

Well I also know kids who have never been vaccinated and haven't caught anything but that doesn't mean it cant happen and that it isn't against standard medical advice.

What one PHN says does not constitute standard medical advice. If you want to claim it as that you'll need a lot more than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

metrovelvet

nesf wrote: »

What one PHN says does not constitute standard medical advice. If you want to claim it as that you'll need a lot more than anecdotal evidence to back it up.

Fine but that is what she said. And she said it during a developmental check up so she giving medical advice.

You would have to back up you're point that that IS NOT good standard medical advice, since she was giving it in a medical office and not on a message board.

cormie

You can't really compare the two. One is a muscular activity influenced by the movement and activity of the mouth, the other is immunisation against the risk of infection. If I curl 5kg of Watermelon with my left arm and a 5kg lamb carcass with my right, it wont matter if the weight and resistance and technique is the same, my biceps and triceps will still grow accordingly.

metrovelvet

I wasnt comparing the two. I was just saying that just because you know people for whom this hasnt been a problem doesnt mean it wont be a problem for others.

nesf

metrovelvet wrote: »

I wasnt comparing the two. I was just saying that just because you know people for whom this hasnt been a problem doesnt mean it wont be a problem for others.

Yes, but the comparison with vaccination was extreme! I'll start a thread on Health Sciences about it and see what the medical people have to say.

littlebug

I do remember hearing / reading/ being told that it was important for babies to eat more solid foods, develop chewing and that it would help develop the muscle movement for speech (or something like that) but it wasn't in relation to meat... just more "chewy" food.

Back to the OP I know a family raised in a similar fashion who are all accomplished and talented adults now. Lovely family. It wouldn't be my way and I think it will be harder when the kids are at school with all the branding, birthday parties etc. I imagine the parents will probably have to become more relaxed about it but I think it's a great start. Xmas aside... but at the minute the child doesn't know any different.

nesf

Thread started here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63209597#post63209597

Make your cases. I've expressed my opinion.

cormie

littlebug wrote: »

I do remember hearing / reading/ being told that it was important for babies to eat more solid foods, develop chewing and that it would help develop the muscle movement for speech (or something like that) but it wasn't in relation to meat... just more "chewy" food.

Of course:) I guess besides toffees, meat is the most common "chewy" food in a standard diet. Vegan children aren't shy of having chewy food at all. There's so many chewy foods out there and lovely ones too dates, figs, coconut, even things like carrot and that you could be chewing for ages if eaten raw on their own.

metrovelvet

cormie wrote: »

Of course:) I guess besides toffees, meat is the most common "chewy" food in a standard diet. Vegan children aren't shy of having chewy food at all. There's so many chewy foods out there and lovely ones too dates, figs, coconut, even things like carrot and that you could be chewing for ages if eaten raw on their own.

Figs and dried apricot seem like good ideas. What is their fibre content?

cormie

Not sure about apricots, but I know figs are known to get the bowels in motion! Sea vegetables can also be very chewy, as are many other vegetables

ebmma

If the meat is that chewy, you are cooking it wrong

Mrs.T

I have worked with children for 20 years. In this time I have noticed a stark difference in children's behaviour and the way they play. I feel that tv has prevented children from imaginative play. From about 15 years ago(?) there was much more merchandise available that was linked to tv programmes and before you knew it most kids were talking about tv instead of what toys they played with. Through the years I have noticed that a lot of children seem to have lost the ability to play and make up games themselves which I think is very sad.

My best friend grew up without tv and I find her family have great communication, they made time for each another. Nowadays after having a tv for a few years she got rid of it again.

Now I have 2 children, DS didn't get to see tv or should I say programmes (because we hardly watch tv as it is) till he was around 2 years old. I don't want any of the kids relying on technology for entertainment. Now he watches things or plays games on the computer every so often. I don't approve of the (in my opinion) cr*p that you buy in the toy shops. The toys are such bad quality that they only last weeks if you are lucky. The toys don't allow for children to use their imagination or keep their interest for too long. My husband (let's call him Mr T) would rather buy Playmobil or Lego at say €60 rather than merchandise at €20 because it will last longer.

As for Christmas, Mr T wouldn't celebrate it normally because he is Dutch and they basically have their own Christmas(Sinterklaas). I don't like how commercialised Christmas has become but we will be celebrating it. My parents made Christmas magical for me so I want to pass that on to our children.

Can't really comment on veganism. PHN don't always know everything (but that's another post;))
Have to go, baby is crying....