Should the civil servant parking spaces be scrapped?

gurramok

http://commissionontaxation.ie/submissions/Individuals//G22%20-%20John%20Newman.pdf

The article is Dublin only, add more countless spaces up for nationwide.

I make it at least 7,000 spaces in the article for Dublin city centre. As a result of Dublin traffic been extraordinarily light this morning due to the public sector strike, shouldn't this generous perk be scrapped?

After all, we are supposed to be encouraging public transport and not subsidising private motor travel with parking spaces. Of course that 200 quid parking levy should be scrapped when the perk is scrapped, that 200quid is only a drop in the ocean to the cost of those spaces.(compare 200quid to €1032->€2,500+ cost in the real world)

Anyone else find it a disgrace in this day of severe congestion that these spaces still are provided?

ardmacha

The more reasonable thing would be to increase the tax payable to reflect the real value of the benefit and have this paid by everyone, private and public alike.

Dr Galen

lots of employers provide parking for staff, why should the PS be any different?

gurramok

ardmacha wrote: »

The more reasonable thing would be to increase the tax payable to reflect the real value of the benefit and have this paid by everyone, private and public alike.

Sounds fair for the cost involved. You pay for your space. I'd rather the whole lot of the parking spaces were taken away and everyone pays to park their car in the city centre.
This link says its 13,000 spaces involved in Dublin alone. http://buckplanning.blogspot.com/2008/06/civil-service-parking-ban-in-city-urged.html

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

lots of employers provide parking for staff, why should the PS be any different?

Maybe as we pay their wages?

It just seems hilarious that a large part of congestion is caused by govt run depts and its these depts that should take the lead in encouraging public transport in urban areas.

Imagine if the all spaces were scrapped tomorrow(both Pub & Priv), you bet the employees will not bring their cars into work and would get the bus/train/cycle/walk instead.

Sleipnir

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

lots of employers provide parking for staff, why should the PS be any different?

While I do see your point, most companies in city centres have very limited spaces available, and then it's usually only for senior managers. I know my place has 250 employees and 6 spaces (reserved for the directors).

Cuddlesworth

1600 staff and just over 100 spaces in the city centre. If you have a office in the city centre then parking is a privilege, not a right.

BroomBurner

Gurramok, I really did believe you were above the "we pay your wages" mantra. Disappointed in that, to be honest.

As for parking spaces, if your workplace (private or public) is lucky enough to come with a parking lot, then so be it.

The bitterness here by people who get all holier-than-thou with their "have-not" facade is pathetic.

gurramok

BroomBurner wrote: »

Gurramok, I really did believe you were above the "we pay your wages" mantra. Disappointed in that, to be honest.

As for parking spaces, if your workplace (private or public) is lucky enough to come with a parking lot, then so be it.

The bitterness here by people who get all holier-than-thou with their "have-not" facade is pathetic.

The poster asked why are the PS any different? I said the truth. There are far too many parking spaces provided for the PS employees out of public money. Is 13,000 not too much for one city centre??

Johnboymac

gurramok wrote: »

Maybe as we pay their wages?

maybe you contribute along with all tax payers...and guess what you ignoramus....Civil and Public servants are also taxpayers...so get off the horse you rode in on......

stepbar

Johnboymac wrote: »

Maybe as we pay their wages?

maybe you contribute along with all tax payers...and guess what you ignoramus....Civil and Public servants are also taxpayers...so get off the horse you rode in on......

Who creates the money to pay the wages?

stepbar

Getting back to the argument.... if someone has a car space provided to them by their employer, then it should be taxed. As far as I'm concerned it's a benefit given in kind.

Mind you the amount it would raise in tax would probably be insignificant. On the flip side it would encourage people to use public transport.

gurramok

Johnboymac wrote: »

maybe you contribute along with all tax payers...and guess what you ignoramus....Civil and Public servants are also taxpayers...so get off the horse you rode in on......

This again. You do not pay my wages unless I end up on the dole hence I have a valid statement in questioning where my taxes go.

dvpower

I think this thread is a year too late.

Parking levy

Budget 2009 provides for a parking levy in urban areas. The parking levy will be paid by employees if they have use of car parking facilities provided either directly or indirectly by their employer. It is not taxed like other benefits and benefits-in-kind. The parking levy is a set amount, however, the amount you pay can vary.

The parking levy is €200 if you have the ongoing use of a parking space. The parking levy is €100 if you must share parking spaces and there are at least twice as many employees to parking spaces. The levy can also be reduced to take account of job-sharing arrangements, maternity leave (including 10 weeks before you start your maternity leave), adoptive leave and certain shift work (for example, if you start or finish work after 9 pm or before 7 am).

You do not pay the parking levy if you:

Are disabled driver with a Disabled Drivers Parking Permit or
Have permission to park for not more than 10 days in a year

Jamar

Yes. The commute into or through Dublin City is horrendous; and removing these spaces would seem to help. Simple as, imo.

gurramok

dvpower wrote: »

I think this thread is a year too late.

You missed this bit about the cost of the parking space.

"(compare 200quid to €1032->€2,500+ cost in the real world)"

dvpower

gurramok wrote: »

You missed this bit about the cost of the parking space.

"(compare 200quid to €1032->€2,500+ cost in the real world)"

You have to give them a chance. Get the fee established. Then, year after year, add an extra €50 - you know how it works.

Rob67

gurramok wrote: »

http://commissionontaxation.ie/submissions/Individuals//G22%20-%20John%20Newman.pdf

The article is Dublin only, add more countless spaces up for nationwide.

I make it at least 7,000 spaces in the article for Dublin city centre. As a result of Dublin traffic been extraordinarily light this morning due to the public sector strike, shouldn't this generous perk be scrapped?

After all, we are supposed to be encouraging public transport and not subsidising private motor travel with parking spaces. Of course that 200 quid parking levy should be scrapped when the perk is scrapped, that 200quid is only a drop in the ocean to the cost of those spaces.(compare 200quid to €1032->€2,500+ cost in the real world)

Anyone else find it a disgrace in this day of severe congestion that these spaces still are provided?

Instead of ranting, what do you suggest be done to rectify this 'perk'?

gurramok

Rob67 wrote: »

Instead of ranting, what do you suggest be done to rectify this 'perk'?

Did you not read the posts?

Make them pay for their spaces or scrap them altogether. It will make wonders to seeing 13,000 less cars in the city centre.

brianthebard

stepbar wrote: »

Who creates the money to pay the wages?

How would the state function without a public service? So many idiotic threads lately.

stepbar

brianthebard wrote: »

How would the state function without a public service? So many idiotic threads lately.

O jeasus :rolleyes:

Talk about missing the point........

brianthebard

stepbar wrote: »

O jeasus :rolleyes:

Talk about missing the point........

I can see your point, I just think its silly to say that because you supposedly 'pay someone's wages' you automatically can tell them what to do. Believe it or not you are not the employer of the public sector, you do not have authority over them. Also since they as workers also pay tax it could be said they are their own bosses, using your 'logic'.

stepbar

brianthebard wrote: »

I can see your point, I just think its silly to say that because you supposedly 'pay someone's wages' you automatically can tell them what to do. Believe it or not you are not the employer of the public sector, you do not have authority over them. Also since they as workers also pay tax it could be said they are their own bosses, using your 'logic'.

Where did I say that?

I do expect the employer (in this case the Government) to providing value to their customers (in this case the Private Sector Taxpayer). It's not too much to ask seeing the private sector is stumping up the net funds.

brianthebard

stepbar wrote: »

Where did I say that?

Are you for real? You said it on the first page and you've repeated it below.

I do expect the employer (in this case the Government) to providing value to their customers (in this case the Private Sector Taxpayer). It's not too much to ask seeing the private sector is stumping up the net funds.

stepbar

brianthebard wrote: »

Are you for real? You said it on the first page and you've repeated it below.

Ok let me more specific -
There's a difference between telling a civil servant what to do and telling the Government what they should be doing. I have no wish to tell a civil servant how to do their job (as much as I'd love to but it's not my job). I have no wish to dictate policy to the Government, that's their job! However, I have a right to expect value for money from their employers i.e the Government. The dogs in the street have known for sometime that this has not been happening.

brianthebard

What's that got to do with parking spaces?

Johnboymac

its the same in all sectors....if an office comes with parking then those in the higher echelons normally get that perk....the minions get the bus no matter whar sector in you work in...oooohhh sounds a bit like the tax regime.....those in the higher echolons avail of the breaks....again...no matter what sector!

brianthebard

Hmm, well I worked in a factory where everyone had a parking space i guess we were all executives or public servants right???? :rolleyes:

PCPhoto

brianthebard wrote: »

How would the state function without a public service? So many idiotic threads lately.

the world kept spinning today despite the public service being on strike.

stepbar

brianthebard wrote: »

What's that got to do with parking spaces?

You mite want to ask johnboy that....

CityCentreMan

The civil servants parking spaces should be scrapped. EU200 per year is so low as to be nearly as good as free and, as a flat rate, it gives no incentive to use public transport.

Standard meter parking rates as applied for normal taxpayers in Dublin city centre are about EU2.50 per hour. This acts as a good incentive to leave the car at home. This reduces congestion and is good for the environment.

I understand that the money would come in handy as well!

Rob67

gurramok wrote: »

Did you not read the posts?

Make them pay for their spaces or scrap them altogether. It will make wonders to seeing 13,000 less cars in the city centre.

Eh, they are paying for them? Admittedly, it may not be a huge amount (€200 p.a.) but they are paying for it, an increase in the cost may be warranted to dissuade use of the car.

So, by removing 13,000 cars belonging to one sector of society would be seen as solving some traffic issue or is it more a case of: rebalancing the books in the great Public/Private sector Civil war? What's your next 'suggestion'? 'No Public Servant is to be permitted to own or have the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle?' Isn't that close to creating an apartheid system?

In a perfect world no-one who worked in the City Centre should need to use cars to get there, however, seeing as we don't, that is, we don't have a 24hr bus or rail service and taxi's would be prohibitively expensive, the car (or motor-bike) are here to stay.

If, by your reasoning, we were to scrap all the parking spaces for Public Servants, are you honestly saying that they should be only allowed to use public transport?

If so, how do you propose to deal with those Public Servants who work shifts/outside normal working hours, e.g. Gardai, Nurses, Soldiers, Local Authority workers and certain Civil Servants?

Further to this, I am therefore going to assume that the same rules will apply to Private Sector workers? After all, not every Public Sector worker who has to travel to the city has a parking space and actually pay the same rate as everyone else for using public street/ private car parks.

Where or when does the bile stop?


Damn, I've realised I'm answering histrionics with same... I must be tired!

gurramok

Rob67 wrote: »

Eh, they are paying for them? Admittedly, it may not be a huge amount (€200 p.a.) but they are paying for it, an increase in the cost may be warranted to dissuade use of the car.

200quid is nothing when taking the cost of those spaces to the taxpayer in question

Rob67 wrote: »

So, by removing 13,000 cars belonging to one sector of society would be seen as solving some traffic issue or is it more a case of: rebalancing the books in the great Public/Private sector Civil war? What's your next 'suggestion'? 'No Public Servant is to be permitted to own or have the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle?' Isn't that close to creating an apartheid system?

Nope, why not scrap the spaces? So, you favour continued preventative congestion, nice one.

Rob67 wrote: »

In a perfect world no-one who worked in the City Centre should need to use cars to get there, however, seeing as we don't, that is, we don't have a 24hr bus or rail service and taxi's would be prohibitively expensive, the car (or motor-bike) are here to stay.

If, by your reasoning, we were to scrap all the parking spaces for Public Servants, are you honestly saying that they should be only allowed to use public transport?

If so, how do you propose to deal with those Public Servants who work shifts/outside normal working hours, e.g. Gardai, Nurses, Soldiers, Local Authority workers and certain Civil Servants?

Ever hear of taxis?...or heaven forbid the bicycle?

Rob67 wrote: »

Further to this, I am therefore going to assume that the same rules will apply to Private Sector workers? After all, not every Public Sector worker who has to travel to the city has a parking space and actually pay the same rate as everyone else for using public street/ private car parks.

Taxpayers don't subsidise Private Sector parking spaces but yes there should be incentive to scrap their spaces too.

Rob67 wrote: »

Where or when does the bile stop?!

Not bile, your imagination.

Sleipnir

brianthebard wrote: »

Hmm, well I worked in a factory where everyone had a parking space i guess we were all executives or public servants right???? :rolleyes:

Did anybody say every parking spot in the city centre is reserved for executives? No, but most companies in the city centre have a limited number of car parking spaces and again, normally those are reserved for senior management.

Rob67

gurramok wrote: »

200quid is nothing when taking the cost of those spaces to the taxpayer in question

I more or less agree with you and you still argue the point? What cost is there to the taxpayer? The vast majority of the buildings occupied by various depts are owned by the state, so there is no appreciable rent cost.

Nope, why not scrap the spaces? So, you favour continued preventative congestion, nice one.

I never said that, you are deliberately taking me out of context. You have only served to prove that you are being apartheid minded in regards the Public Sector.

Ever hear of taxis?...or heaven forbid the bicycle?

This is clever... obviously you don't take a taxi regularly, they are expensive if you decide to use one in replacement of the private car. As for bicycles, I don't see many Public Servants who work outside normal hours cycling from their homes in Naas, Navan or even Bray. (Yeah, I know, I am being Dublin-centric, it's only an example). I would only assume you haven't given this a lot of thought have you?

Taxpayers don't subsidise Private Sector parking spaces but yes there should be incentive to scrap their spaces too

.

Woo... hoo... agreement (of sorts) at last...

Not bile, your imagination.

Well, if that were the case my imagination is very realistic as a result of looking over the huge volume of posts regarding the anti-Public Sector lobby. I have never witnessed such bilious diatribe from some people who are looking for anything to attack fellow citizens..

gurramok

Rob67 wrote: »

I more or less agree with you and you still argue the point? What cost is there to the taxpayer? The vast majority of the buildings occupied by various depts are owned by the state, so there is no appreciable rent cost.

Did you not read the article I provided about the rental costs of those spaces? Something like 8m quid is spent needlessly.

And what about the congestion costs of those preventable 13,000 private cars clogging up the city centre?

Rob67 wrote: »

I never said that, you are deliberately taking me out of context. You have only served to prove that you are being apartheid minded in regards the Public Sector.

Oh boy. I as a taxpayer highlight waste in the public sector and I get labelled as 'apartheid'.

Rob67 wrote: »

This is clever... obviously you don't take a taxi regularly, they are expensive if you decide to use one in replacement of the private car. As for bicycles, I don't see many Public Servants who work outside normal hours cycling from their homes in Naas, Navan or even Bray. (Yeah, I know, I am being Dublin-centric, it's only an example). I would only assume you haven't given this a lot of thought have you?

No-one forced anyone to live in the middle of nowhere to commute to the city centre. They all ain't living out in the middle of nowhere. By the way Bray has the Dart.
.

Rob67 wrote: »

Well, if that were the case my imagination is very realistic as a result of looking over the huge volume of posts regarding the anti-Public Sector lobby. I have never witnessed such bilious diatribe from some people who are looking for anything to attack fellow citizens..

Funny man. Ignore the issue and accuse anyone who questions it as 'bilious diatribe'.

Rob67

gurramok wrote: »

Did you not read the article I provided about the rental costs of those spaces? Something like 8m quid is spent needlessly.

This article is from 2008, in the intervening period Finance vacated that building earlier this year so that cost is now gone. I would agree that the cost should be more apportioned to the occupier, but to scrap them and force Public Servants to solely depend on an inefficient public transport system is ridiculous. It would give effect to restrictions on movement to one sector of society, unless it was applied across the entire spectrum of commuters it would be an unfair imposition on personal freedom.

And what about the congestion costs of those preventable 13,000 private cars clogging up the city centre?

Would the Private Sector commuters, who also clog up the city's thoroughfares, be willing to make the same sacrifice?

Oh boy. I as a taxpayer highlight waste in the public sector and I get labelled as 'apartheid'.

This is all we need, professional victim-hood... I freely accept that there is waste in certain areas, you are generalising it as widespread.

You are vindicating a policy which imposes restrictions on the freedom of movement on one sector of society, so yes, the label still applies.

No-one forced anyone to live in the middle of nowhere to commute to the city centre. They all ain't living out in the middle of nowhere. By the way Bray has the Dart.

Were you actually paying attention to the last few years? House prices went through the roof, so to be able to afford to buy a house many people had to move further out. So, yes they were forced out to more rural locations to be able to lead a life.

Does the Dart operate during the wee small hours?

Funny man. Ignore the issue and accuse anyone who questions it as 'bilious diatribe'.

Thanks, my humour often escapes people.

I never ignored the issue, I questioned the validity of your argument, I still do, considering your position is based on a personal letter (yours?), an article from a biased media source and a blog citing the view of a lobby group. Not exactly the most impartial of sources are they?

Chardee MacDennis

dvpower wrote: »

I think this thread is a year too late.

can i have one of these spaces for 200 euro? bargain...

Chardee MacDennis

Rob67 wrote: »

Would the Private Sector commuters, who also clog up the city's thoroughfares, be willing to make the same sacrifice?

show me the precentages, i bet you there are more ps parking in dublin as a percentage than in the private sector

gazzer

In the 16 years I worked as a CS in Dublin I never had a free parking space. In fact in the last department I worked in (Revenue) there was a 5 year waiting list for the few spaces available

Rob67

BastardPrince wrote: »

show me the precentages, i bet you there are more ps parking in dublin as a percentage than in the private sector

A bit hard to do considering the Private Sector is not held to the same public scrutiny as the Public Sector, so the figure would not be quantifiable as a percentage. I am not going to engage in a statistical poll taking just to verify something which I posited as a query.

Cuddlesworth

brianthebard wrote: »

Hmm, well I worked in a factory where everyone had a parking space i guess we were all executives or public servants right???? :rolleyes:

In the city centre? Is this place still running? The value of land in the city centre is vastly different then outside of it. And for that reason all the car parking spaces that a huge number of public servants currently enjoy could be sold or the space used appropriately.

Rob67

BastardPrince wrote: »

can i have one of these spaces for 200 euro? bargain...

You can have mine... oh wait, I never had one...

gurramok

Rob67 wrote: »

This article is from 2008, in the intervening period Finance vacated that building earlier this year so that cost is now gone. I would agree that the cost should be more apportioned to the occupier, but to scrap them and force Public Servants to solely depend on an inefficient public transport system is ridiculous. It would give effect to restrictions on movement to one sector of society, unless it was applied across the entire spectrum of commuters it would be an unfair imposition on personal freedom.

In case you missed, i would be favour of scrapping all the parking spaces for both sectors. Its the 13,000 where most are provided in a core area out of taxpayers money that the taxpayer has a right to know whats going on.

Rob67 wrote: »

Would the Private Sector commuters, who also clog up the city's thoroughfares, be willing to make the same sacrifice?

Sure yeh. You missed that part again.

Rob67 wrote: »

This is all we need, professional victim-hood... I freely accept that there is waste in certain areas, you are generalising it as widespread.

You are vindicating a policy which imposes restrictions on the freedom of movement on one sector of society, so yes, the label still applies.

You brought victimhood here. If Google provided a 1000 parking spaces on Barrow st, Dublin, they would be rightly scorned but hey they employ about 1,500 and provide about 20 parking spaces.

Rob67 wrote: »

Were you actually paying attention to the last few years? House prices went through the roof, so to be able to afford to buy a house many people had to move further out. So, yes they were forced out to more rural locations to be able to lead a life.

No-one forced them to. Ever hear of renting? It works wonders for foreigners working here and on the continent.

Rob67 wrote: »

Does the Dart operate during the wee small hours?

No. Do the vast majority of PS workers work in the wee small hours?

Rob67 wrote: »

Thanks, my humour often escapes people.

I never ignored the issue, I questioned the validity of your argument, I still do, considering your position is based on a personal letter (yours?), an article from a biased media source and a blog citing the view of a lobby group. Not exactly the most impartial of sources are they?

Provide an 'unbiased link'. How many parking spaces are provided by the taxpayer to the public servants then?

Never knew the Taxation people were biased.

brianthebard

gurramok wrote: »

No. Do the vast majority of PS workers work in the wee small hours?

Guards, nurses, doctors, prison officers, etc, etc? There are some ridiculous claims in this thread.

Riskymove

gurramok wrote: »

In case you missed, i would be favour of scrapping all the parking spaces for both sectors.

thats a valid view but this thread is clearly about targeting one sector

some buildings have car parking, some dont, in pretty much all cases i'd imagine there are spaces for only a fraction of the staff

most public servants use public transport, undoubtedly

for some a car is neccessary

bridgitt

Riskymove wrote: »

most public servants use public transport, undoubtedly

The odd time perhaps, but most would have a car / drive a car. Why would they not at the salaries they are on ?

Riskymove

bridgitt wrote: »

The odd time perhaps, but most would have a car / drive a car. Why would they not at the salaries they are on ?

:rolleyes:

another balanced post

gurramok

brianthebard wrote: »

Guards, nurses, doctors, prison officers, etc, etc? There are some ridiculous claims in this thread.

13,000 work in the wee small hours of Dublin city centre? Ridiculous quoting a minority on nightshift. Note, i said the majority.

Rob67

gurramok wrote: »

In case you missed, i would be favour of scrapping all the parking spaces for both sectors. Its the 13,000 where most are provided in a core area out of taxpayers money that the taxpayer has a right to know whats going on.




Sure yeh. You missed that part again.

Sorry, I have a tendency to tune out when there is too much ranting going on!

You brought victimhood here.

I never did, I defended a sector you had attacked.

Google provided a 1000 parking spaces on Barrow st, Dublin, they would be rightly scorned but hey they employ about 1,500 and provide about 20 parking spaces.

That's their prerogative, they are a Private Sector employer after all and therefore not required to answer to the likes of you and I.

No-one forced them to. Ever hear of renting? It works wonders for foreigners working here and on the continent.

what!? Are you saying now that a Public Sector is not to be allowed to own property too? Where will it all end? And then to equate Public Sector workers with 'foreigners' in such a derogatory tone, I think your issues may be deeper than you think.

And no, I'm not taking you seriously, I think you are far too funny to be be ever considered so.

No. Do the vast majority of PS workers work in the wee small hours?

Soldiers, Gardai, Nurses, Doctors, Fire Service do operate at unusual hours. As do certain grades of Civil Servant, hang on I thought I already mentioned this, are you not reading my posts properly? For shame!!

Provide an 'unbiased link'. How many parking spaces are provided by the taxpayer to the public servants then?

I have no idea whatsoever, you are the one who brought it up, you go look.

Never knew the Taxation people were biased.

The letter was from a private individual as far as I could see (strangely enough the link to the letter is now broken, very strange...:rolleyes:). It did not originate in a revenue office, it does have a date stamp and initialled to attest to its date of receipt, but there is no letterhead as would be expected of a letter or internal memorandum generated in a Civil Service office.

bridgitt

Riskymove wrote: »

:rolleyes:

another balanced post

More true than your claim that "most public servants use public transport, undoubtedly". No, most of the third of a million public servants do not use public transport. For many in the country it is not even an option.
Car parking spaces are a perk, and the government should charge full market price for them, to those who want to use them.

Rob67

bridgitt wrote: »

The odd time perhaps, but most would have a car / drive a car. Why would they not at the salaries they are on ?

Why would you say that? Are you following all of them and keeping tabs on their activities, oohh, you are good! To be able to ascertain that most of the Public Sector have a car/ own a car is truly a master-stroke.

And no, I don't take you seriously either...