What is the point of prayer?

liamw

This was briefly addressed in the Atheism forum, but I wanted to ask your opinions.

If God is omniscient, how can prayer make a difference?

I can understand that prayer may sometimes be about praising God, but the majority of the time it is asking God to change something.

BrianCalgary

Prayer is about having a conversation with God. I thank him for what He has done and for what He is doing.

I aks for help and wisdom in any crisis that I am facing. I let Him know how I am feeling about stuff.

This is where folks will jump in and say, 'ah but he already knows how you feel, so why tell Him?', the same reason that I tell my wife how I'm feeling even though she knows what's going on, it helps to articulate. I also know that after telling my wife and we have a disuccion that I always am a little closer to her and love her that wee bit more, as it is with God. A little closer and a little more love.

wolfsbane

To add to Brian's excellent comment:
God desires an intimate, on-going relationship with His people, so 'communication' is necessary - as any husband/wife will tell you. How can two persons love each other and not communicate?

Additionally, because we are prone to wander, prone to folly, prone to discouragement and despair, God insists we keep close - and prayer is the means. When we neglect prayer, He makes us feel our loneliness, our lack of fellowship - to draw us back.

As to changing or getting things, the need for prayer is as above. If we got the answer without the asking, our relationship with God would not grow.

Kipperhell

I don't want to wade in on what other people feel about prayer but "communication" is not being correctly used if comparing it to a couple. In a couple it is an exchange back and forth the communication of prayer is one way using a different meaning of the word.

I know people say they do get communication back from God but if it is in a different indefinable way it is not the communication definition used for a couple. It isn't semantics but slight of hand being used with words.

I personally find the communication analogy being used as very misleading as a belief and simplistic.

BrianCalgary

Kipperhell wrote: »

I don't want to wade in on what other people feel about prayer but "communication" is not being correctly used if comparing it to a couple. In a couple it is an exchange back and forth the communication of prayer is one way using a different meaning of the word.

I know people say they do get communication back from God but if it is in a different indefinable way it is not the communication definition used for a couple. It isn't semantics but slight of hand being used with words.

I personally find the communication analogy being used as very misleading as a belief and simplistic.

It is not misleading because there is communication from God back to the one praying. It is similar to what happens with a couple of people communicating.

Kipperhell

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It is not misleading because there is communication from God back to the one praying. It is similar to what happens with a couple of people communicating.

No matter what your religious views God does not verbally communicate. Claims of communication back from god are very subjective. If you could explain this communication back maybe the word is being used correctly otherwise it is just equivocation.

wolfsbane

Kipperhell wrote: »

I don't want to wade in on what other people feel about prayer but "communication" is not being correctly used if comparing it to a couple. In a couple it is an exchange back and forth the communication of prayer is one way using a different meaning of the word.

I know people say they do get communication back from God but if it is in a different indefinable way it is not the communication definition used for a couple. It isn't semantics but slight of hand being used with words.

I personally find the communication analogy being used as very misleading as a belief and simplistic.

God speaks to us in His word (the Bible), and specifically applies its comfort/instruction to our heart by His Spirit. Christians know that inward witness of the Spirit, even if others cannot experience it.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you...

John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 17:13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together...26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Sam Vimes

Kipperhell wrote: »

No matter what your religious views God does not verbally communicate. Claims of communication back from god are very subjective. If you could explain this communication back maybe the word is being used correctly otherwise it is just equivocation.

Prayer as a form of communication kind of scares me tbh. Say the person has a dilemma and doesn't know what to do or is thinking of doing something normally considered immoral for whatever reason and is asking god if he should. If they get a sudden feeling pushing them in one direction, I know that nothing supernatural has happened but they now think their decision has divine approval and therefore cannot possibly be wrong. Scary stuff

Turtwig

Just curious,

How do Christians feel about people asking God for help/cures/money in their prayers?
When I was younger, it would have been something I heavily condemned, to me it was about proving myself to God and sharing my worries and dilemmas with Him : not actually asking for His direct interventions (Although I did ask for guidance on a few occasions so maybe I inadvertently stowed that line anyway??).

(This feels weird talking about this )

Kipperhell

wolfsbane wrote: »

God speaks to us in His word (the Bible), and specifically applies its comfort/instruction to our heart by His Spirit. Christians know that inward witness of the Spirit, even if others cannot experience it.

Well the bible would be what God has said and not presently speaking in response to a prayer. It is not communication as in two way with a couple, all I am saying is the word is not being correctly used. It is not comparable to a human couple communicating.

I get the belief in feeling of reassurance and so forth but that is not communication with God if other people can get the same spiritual high with out praying to a Christian God.

Not all Christians would believe your version of praying and would actively refute the suggested communication back from God. A priest told me it was to fill your heart with positive feeling and to have an understanding ear no matter what you have done.

BrianCalgary

Kipperhell wrote: »

No matter what your religious views God does not verbally communicate..

yes He does. My wife has had God communicate verbally.

Kipperhell wrote: »

Claims of communication back from god are very subjective. If you could explain this communication back maybe the word is being used correctly otherwise it is just equivocation.

The communication can come in many different forms.
I have had a physcial nudge not to do something, and God was right to do this.
Affirmations from various sources on what God and I spoke in private.
Feeling of comfort in my heart on a decision made or not made.

BrianCalgary

Kipperhell wrote: »

Not all Christians would believe your version of praying and would actively refute the suggested communication back from God. A priest told me it was to fill your heart with positive feeling and to have an understanding ear no matter what you have done.

That is one way.

liamw

wolfsbane wrote: »

To add to Brian's excellent comment:
God desires an intimate, on-going relationship with His people, so 'communication' is necessary - as any husband/wife will tell you. How can two persons love each other and not communicate?

It would be nice if either of you actually answered my actual question instead of talking about communication.

Why do people pray to God to change things in their life if he is omniscient?

Do you think it's futile? If not, why not?

Kipperhell

BrianCalgary wrote: »

yes He does. My wife has had God communicate verbally.
The communication can come in many different forms.
I have had a physcial nudge not to do something, and God was right to do this.
Affirmations from various sources on what God and I spoke in private.
Feeling of comfort in my heart on a decision made or not made.

I personally would considered that the view of somebody who is deranged and I really mean nothing personal with regard to you by that. I have met people who hear voices before both under a religious belief and mental health issues. There isn't any difference to me. There are lots of explanations for things in this world God is not the answer to everything. I spent a week in a confined space with a woman who believed she could hear the voices of the dead.

There are very few Christian people who would believe God actually spoke to your wife unless they experienced something similar. There are lots of example through history about people with such beliefs. Not saying you are lying.

OP

Talking about communication is vital to your question. Some people believe God can change his plans but most believe it is a strength giver to deal with the crisis. Fundamentally Christian teaching say you aren't to ask for actual God's intervention but people can't really do that and attribute their prays to changing events. It isn't really what they are meant to believe but the human being is pre-coded to see patterns whether they exist or not. Lots of experiments to show this and many animals have the same instinct such as pigeons. It's faulty learning logic with OCD being an extreme example.

There is lots of scientific study on prayer worth reading most Christian faiths have it simply as to give you strength and not any form of wish granting. Some believe it has direct effect but I would take the teachings to be quite explicit that prayer is not the form of worship your actions are. You can quote from the bible to say lots of things but I would go with what seems to be the philosophy that Jesus seems to preach rather than letters and saints after the events.

BrianCalgary

Kipperhell wrote: »

I personally would considered that the view of somebody who is deranged and I really mean nothing personal with regard to you by that. I have met people who hear voices before both under a religious belief and mental health issues. There isn't any difference to me. There are lots of explanations for things in this world God is not the answer to everything. I spent a week in a confined space with a woman who believed she could hear the voices of the dead.

There are very few Christian people who would believe God actually spoke to your wife unless they experienced something similar. There are lots of example through history about people with such beliefs. Not saying you are lying. .

Yes you are saying that I am lying. You are also calling my wife insane. And I take exception to that. You have no idea what you are talking about and your comparison has absolutely no foundation.

There is only one explanation: God spoke audibly to my wife. It has happened on two occasions. I know many Christians who would accept and believe that God spoke audibly to my wife. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

To the OP:

We ask God to change circumstances and sometimes He does. But during the conversation you get yourself aligned to God's plan and sometimes that means acceptance of the current situation.

I dont know many who enter into conversation with God that actually look for change of situation moreso than a resolution to a situation. Or help in getting out of a situation.

I hope that clarifies and answers you OP.

SIX PACK

I find praying in a time of crisis or if im feeling really low that it helps me cope When i feel the whole world is against me.
I should pray more but their is so much other stuff keeping me occupied that i hardly get time to even think anymore...

Turtwig

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Yes you are saying that I am lying. You are also calling my wife insane. And I take exception to that. You have no idea what you are talking about and your comparison has absolutely no foundation.

Calm Down,

S/he is not saying you are lying, s/he is just alluding to the fact that many people claim that claim God or a saint speaks to them and the general public generally don't believe them. The same goes for your wife, God may or may not be talking to her, that is not the issue, the issue is how many people would believe her?

There is only one explanation: God spoke audibly to my wife. It has happened on two occasions. I know many Christians who would accept and believe that God spoke audibly to my wife. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

There isn't only one explanation!!
That's fallacious thinking at best. Your wife could, God forbid, be hearing Satan disguising himself as God in an attempt to pull her away from God. How can she possibly know for certain? How can you?
She may be genuinely hallucinating and not realise it?
There are tons of other explanations possible don't kid yourself into thinking that the one you want the most is really the only possibility.
You can believe what you want, but you should at least realise that the number of probable explanations is greater than 1.

BrianCalgary

Malty_T wrote: »

Calm Down,

S/he is not saying you are lying, s/he is just alluding to the fact that many people claim that claim God or a saint speaks to them and the general public generally don't believe them. The same goes for your wife, God may or may not be talking to her, that is not the issue, the issue is how many people would believe her?


There isn't only one explanation!!
That's fallacious thinking at best. Your wife could, God forbid, be hearing Satan disguising himself as God to drag her away from God. How can she possibly know for certain? How can you?
She may be genuinely hallucinating and not realise it?
There are tons of other explanations possible don't kid yourself into thinking that the one you want the most is really the only possibility.
You can believe what you want, but you should at least realise that the number of probable explanations is greater than 1.

No there aren't any other possible explanations. God spoke audibly to my wife and there isn't anyone that knows her that would say otherwise.

My sheep know my voice. John 10:27

lmaopml

liamw wrote: »

This was briefly addressed in the Atheism forum, but I wanted to ask your opinions.

If God is omniscient, how can prayer make a difference?

I can understand that prayer may sometimes be about praising God, but the majority of the time it is asking God to change something.

The very simple answer is, we 'pray' because God asked us to..

My own 'meanderings' on why we should pray...is that God chose to create us and to enter into a working creative relationship with us, because we're made in his image.....and to have his will fulfilled and for him to have children who 'chose' him, through their own 'will'...which is an aspect of God....and his 'image'....

It's a big 'LOVE' thing....!!!......We are co-creators, we create one moment in reality to the next and accept the consequences of choosing wisely or unwisely...as laid down in our Scripture. I myself believe that 'prayer' gives God permission to interfere in our lives, where otherwise he respects our free choices.

Does he know we will or won't pray? I would say, 'yes' he does...but puts us just where we should be in order to 'pray sincerely' at a point in linear time...and that is the special 'creative' relationship....we create our future and the future of our children by giving God permission to intervene, the more people pray the more he can intervene...to reach his ultimate will.

It's a foregone conclusion that some will fall short, perhaps it's a case of 'damage limitation' or something the 'prayer' thing. I don't claim to know the will of God.....However, we're not actually told precise figures.....perhaps it's very few, or perhaps it's many, I don't know. We've already been told that....because God knows 'all' things... It's just up to us in the moment whether we count ourselves among the ones who 'fall short' or the people who don't fall short.....and I believe we have freewill to do this and are given every opportunity to create a future that is different for us moment by moment...

and God creates a new future and knows it in it's entirety moment by moment to meet his end.

It's our choice in the here and now where we set our cap....

liamw

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I dont know many who enter into conversation with God that actually look for change of situation moreso than a resolution to a situation. Or help in getting out of a situation.

I hope that clarifies and answers you OP.

Thanks for the reply. I have to disagree though. It's true that a lot of people pray for comfort and reassurance in times of need, but it is also true that a lot of people pray for an event to happen whereby God would need to intervene.

For example, my mum praying that I do well in my exams, people praying so that someone in hospital gets better. You and I both know that if we asked the average person praying they would tell us that they are praying for God to intervene and make the person better.

So, when someone is praying for God to take some sort of action and intervention, is it futile?

kelly1

liamw wrote: »

This was briefly addressed in the Atheism forum, but I wanted to ask your opinions.

If God is omniscient, how can prayer make a difference?

I can understand that prayer may sometimes be about praising God, but the majority of the time it is asking God to change something.

Hello Liam, I was just reading the Gospel of John earlier and there's a passage in it that I think is very relevant here:

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing

I think this passage sums up the importance of prayer. Christians believe that all good comes from God i.e goodness isn't something that's inherently part of our nature. It is only God's grace that makes us capable of good. It's like we're the bulb and God is the electricity. Without prayer, we have no relationship with God (through Jesus) and therefore we detach ourselves from the Vine, the source of all good.

It's my own belief that grace is offered to everybody whether they know it or not. Scripture says that the sun shines on the just and the wicked. So regardsless of one's beliefs, good is only possible under the influnce of God's grace.

But then some people have totally rejected God's grace and become monsters - Hitler, Stalin, rapists, paedophiles, serial killers etc. These people have totally cut themselves off from the Source of all good and the result is incredible evil.

St. Teresa of Avila who said that sin and prayer are incompatible. Sooner or later everyone must give up one or the other.

Kipperhell

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No there aren't any other possible explanations. God spoke audibly to my wife and there isn't anyone that knows her that would say otherwise.

My sheep know my voice. John 10:27

There are plenty of explanation that have nothing to with whether you are lying. I don't think you can be 100% sure no matter what you claim but can 100% beleive. I very much doubt you can speak for everybody who knows your wife but my disbelief is not a claim you are lying. You would have to be surrounded by people with your same belief which would mean you have insulated yourself from other thinking. What is wrong with everybody else that they don't hear God or receive physical intervention?

There is actually a lot of science on the subject of voices and such. The same way some explainable events are seen a miracles by some.

Many Christians would no believe a shaman can enter the spirit world but it doesn't mean that it neither happens nor the shaman are lying. Some open minded Christians will see that as the same god just worshipped different hence the same effect. Other just say they are deranged and deluded as it isn't the true god. Everybody can't be right.

As far as I recall the Catholic faith is pretty explicate in what the prayers do and don't do. Getting an audible reply is certainly not normal or within the grasp of most people whether through design or divinity.

liamw

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No there aren't any other possible explanations. God spoke audibly to my wife and there isn't anyone that knows her that would say otherwise.

Have a read of this. You should never close your mind like that.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741

kelly1

SIX PACK wrote: »

I should pray more but their is so much other stuff keeping me occupied that i hardly get time to even think anymore...

I know exactly what you mean! Very hard to get time these days but maybe we have our fingers in too many pies and we're not concentrating on the priorities?

Rb

BrianCalgary wrote: »

There is only one explanation: God spoke audibly to my wife. It has happened on two occasions. I know many Christians who would accept and believe that God spoke audibly to my wife. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Yes, but how many mental health care professionals would accept this response? Very few, I would imagine, those few being theists themselves.

It is not "one explanation", your wife heard voices in her head, until you can prove that it was God, and not some form of mental illness, then the burden of probability would indicate she needs to talk to a professional.

Passing off hearing voices in your head as being God talking to you is one hell of a way to ignore what could potentially be a serious condition.

Sam Vimes

Rb wrote: »

Yes, but how many mental health care professionals would accept this response? Very few, I would imagine, those few being theists themselves.

It is not "one explanation", your wife heard voices in her head, until you can prove that it was God, and not some form of mental illness, then the burden of probability would indicate she needs to talk to a professional.

Passing off hearing voices in your head as being God talking to you is one hell of a way to ignore what could potentially be a serious condition.

In fairness that type of thing isn't necessarily a sign of mental illness. It could just have been the wind or the house creaking or similar that her brain interpreted as speech. I've seen things right in front of me that weren't there, mostly when tired. I've reached out and tried to touch them only for my hand to go right through them. The brain is an odd device that can misfire all too easily, even a healthy one. But regardless, God talking to her is far from the only explanation for hearing what is perceived as a voice. She expected god to talk to her, a muslim would have expected Allah, A Hindu would have expected Vishnu, a mormon would have expected the angel Gabriel, the African tribesman would have expected the great ju ju under the sea and none would have been disappointed.

edit: I'd still get it looked at by a doctor though.

Rb

Sam Vimes wrote: »

In fairness that type of thing isn't necessarily a sign of mental illness. It could just have been the wind or the house creaking or similar that her brain interpreted as speech. I've seen things right in front of me that weren't there, mostly when tired. I've reached out and tried to touch them only for my hand to go right through them. The brain is an odd device that can misfire all too easily, even a healthy one. But regardless, God talking to her is far from the only explanation for hearing what is perceived as a voice. She expected god to talk to her, a muslim would have expected Allah, A Hindu would have expected Vishnu, a mormon would have expected the angel Gabriel, the African tribesman would have expected the great ju ju under the sea and none would have been disappointed.

edit: I'd still get it looked at by a doctor though.

Well this is very true, I think Dawkins spoke of it and referred to our brains inclination to make assumptions based on hopes and fears, such as hearing a sound in the night and believing the house is being broken into, or the wind making an odd sound through a gap and believing it is the howl of a banshee, etc.

So you're certainly right, it's truly plausible that she heard a sound created by something else and interpretted it as the word of God, not only the word of God, the personally spoken word of God.One would wonder, had this "voice" told her to kill everyone within a one mile radius and she had, would it still be the wonderful "verbal communication from God"

It is a good example of theist ignorance though, declaring that the only explanation is the "word of God", it's akin to me finding cat poo on the carpet and without the cat in sight for an immediate satisfactory explanation, attributing it to the poo of God. I heard voices in the house at night recently, around 3am when everyone but me was asleep. Quite loud noises too, I pondered what the hell it could be, burglers? Ghosts(lol)?...FSM?! Nay, it was indeed the noise of our new housemate sleep talking in the next room, glad am I that I investigated it and didn't merely put the noise down to the supernatural or, indeed, that of some of my more realistic fears.

BrianCalgary

I am really pissed off at the insinuations that have come onto this thread about my wife's experience and the ininuations that she needs to seek professional help.

There is NO other explanation for the communication that she received form God in an audible voice.

She recognized the voice of God as she belongs to Him and recognized her masters voice.

What you atheists are saying is that there are other explanations. There are none. To think that if someone speaks to me and to offer up that it could have been someone else in disguise is completely ludicrous.

Stop this attack on someone you have never met and do not know. It is low and uncalled for.

I call on the mods to put a stop to it. :mad::mad:

Kipperhell, rb and Malty_t.

BrianCalgary

liamw wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I have to disagree though. It's true that a lot of people pray for comfort and reassurance in times of need, but it is also true that a lot of people pray for an event to happen whereby God would need to intervene.

For example, my mum praying that I do well in my exams, people praying so that someone in hospital gets better. You and I both know that if we asked the average person praying they would tell us that they are praying for God to intervene and make the person better.

I can see where you are coming from here.

liamw wrote: »

So, when someone is praying for God to take some sort of action and intervention, is it futile?

No it isn't futile. My son is writing a math final today and I will pray for God to be with him as he writes so he can do the best he can. I think God will honour that and be there.

I think God does listen to prayer and does answer them and will intervene on peoples behalf as requested.

In saying that we also understand that God will intervene in our best interest for the long term.

Turtwig

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I am really pissed off at the insinuations that have come onto this thread about my wife's experience and the ininuations that she needs to seek professional help.

There is NO other explanation for the communication that she received form God in an audible voice.

I commend your faith in God as it's obviously very strong. However, even you need to admit that other things are possible - no one can ever say anything with 100% certainty.
I don't deny that I might be wrong about my lack of belief in some God.

Even if what you are saying is 100% correct it still doesn't meant it was the only possible explanation all I want is you to realise that.
Regardless of how ludicrous the explanations proposed may seem (heck I could even include aliens), you have to realise that there are still other possible explanations : there isn't only one explanation for everything.
If there was then life would be very simple indeed.

A simple analogy,
How do you know that this isn't the Matrix and that some machine has programmed you to be a theist, and me an atheist?
I don't know for certain, however I believe that it simply isn't the case, but I'll still admit the possibility that the Matrix may be the explanation however ludicrous it may seem.

patmartino

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Prayer is about having a conversation with God. I thank him for what He has done and for what He is doing.

What is he doing?

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It is not misleading because there is communication from God back to the one praying. It is similar to what happens with a couple of people communicating.

These are just your own voices in your head, next time you speak to god ask him about contents of other galaxies.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It is not misleading because there is communication from God back to the one praying. It is similar to what happens with a couple of people communicating.

No it is not.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No there aren't any other possible explanations. God spoke audibly to my wife and there isn't anyone that knows her that would say otherwise.

Scary reply

kelly1 wrote: »

But then some people have totally rejected God's grace and become monsters - Hitler, Stalin, rapists, paedophiles, serial killers etc. These people have totally cut themselves off from the Source of all good and the result is incredible evil.

St. Teresa of Avila who said that sin and prayer are incompatible. Sooner or later everyone must give up one or the other.

Yes, nobody who believed in god did anything bad

BrianCalgary wrote: »

I am really pissed off at the insinuations that have come onto this thread about my wife's experience and the ininuations that she needs to seek professional help.

This is very delusional behavior.

BrianCalgary wrote: »

No it isn't futile. My son is writing a math final today and I will pray for God to be with him as he writes so he can do the best he can. I think God will honour that and be there.

I think God does listen to prayer and does answer them and will intervene on peoples behalf as requested.

In saying that we also understand that God will intervene in our best interest for the long term.

Why would you god to watch your child in an exam, can't you think of more important things to pray for.

Turtwig

Thanks Pat,

Brian, pat's trolling just offered me the perfect analogy.:)

Even He should admit that the possibility is there that it's genuine behaviour, not delusional.
If he doesn't then I shall start at him too (assuming he survives a ban.)

patmartino

Malty_T wrote: »

Thanks Pat,

Brian, pat's trolling just offered me the perfect analogy.:)

Even He should admit that the possibility is there that it's genuine behaviour, not delusional.
If he doesn't then I shall start at him too (assuming he survives a ban.)

I did not mean to offend Brian or his wife, but when someone tells you that they converse with GOD in a 2 way conversation there are issues of delusion

Rb

Malty_T wrote: »

Thanks Pat,

Brian, pat's trolling just offered me the perfect analogy.:)

Even He should admit that the possibility is there that it's genuine behaviour, not delusional.
If he doesn't then I shall start at him too (assuming he survives a ban.)

There's also a possibility that it was a dog talking to her.

In fact, it's an unmeasurable amount more probable that it was indeed a canine companion talking to her.

There's an endless list of things that it could have been, nay, probably was and at the very bottom of the list, far past the probability of it being a dog, far, far past the probability of it being an alien beaming radio waves into her head from another planet, and even further than that to the possibility of it being another planet itself talking to her, lies the possibility of it being a supernatural deity called "Yahweh". Not factoring in the plethora of other "Gods" it could have been there too.

So, I guess, everything is possible, but here in the real world chances are it was more likely to be Saturn talking to her than "God". My point being that Brian should calm down, as it most likely (to a factor of almost n) wasn't a "God" talking to her.

I mean, even those of the strongest "faith" cannot merely hear a sound and be adamant that that sound was God, without considering the more plausible explanations accompanying it. Such an attitude would lead us well back to the days of worshiping the Sun God "Ra" and sacrificing one another in his glory.

Turtwig

Rb wrote: »

There's also a possibility that it was a dog talking to her.

In fact, it's an unmeasurable amount more probable that it was indeed a canine companion talking to her. .

Woeful comparison.

Dogs cannot talk : probability of Dog talking = 0.
God supposedly can talk : probability of God talking (if He exists) = something non zero.

So...er nice logic.

philologos

Guys, I have to say you're not being particularly fair in allowing us to answer your question. If you want a decent response be patient, and let us speak in a civil manner.

I pray to God, for numerous reasons. I pray to Him to thank Him for what He is doing in my life, what way He is leading me, and to lead me to a greater knowledge of Him and ultimately into a greater fellowship with Him as I get older. I pray for my friends and family, I pray about what I came across in that day. I repent of my sins. I ask God to forgive me, and give me the strength I need to continue serving Him with the honour and glory He deserves.

Before I start my day, I generally ask Him to help me to live for Him, and to speak for Him in some way throughout that day.

If it is a busy day, I ask Him that I can do everything I can to His glory, and I ask Him to give me the peace to endure what I have to.

Prayer is something that I need to find more time for, but as a Christian I find it crucially important, as prayer is the bridge between what one reads in Holy Scripture, and what one does during ones day. It is the formation of a relationship, it is allowing God in our lives, especially when they seem deprived of hope.

I think a lot of Christians struggle with finding time for prayers, particularly as work life, social lives, and so on start to occupy our time. I'd also be interested in hearing what other Christians feel about this issue with time and prayer and finding enough of it. Surely it can't be just me?

Disclaimer: I don't care if you think that I am mad for engaging in such a relationship, nor do I care if you find me to be delusional.

Rb

Malty_T wrote: »

Woeful comparison.

Dogs cannot talk : probability of Dog talking = 0.
God supposedly can talk : probability of God talking (if He exists) = something non zero.

So...er nice logic.

Um, no. Just no.

The probability of a dog being able to talk is not zero, nor is the probability of a god talking to someone. If you can't see why then I'm not going to bother explaining it. Also I have a feeling you could be confusing the ability to talk with the ability to converse.

BrianCalgary

Rb wrote: »

There's also a possibility that it was a dog talking to her.

In fact, it's an unmeasurable amount more probable that it was indeed a canine companion talking to her.

There's an endless list of things that it could have been, nay, probably was and at the very bottom of the list, far past the probability of it being a dog, far, far past the probability of it being an alien beaming radio waves into her head from another planet, and even further than that to the possibility of it being another planet itself talking to her, lies the possibility of it being a supernatural deity called "Yahweh". Not factoring in the plethora of other "Gods" it could have been there too.

So, I guess, everything is possible, but here in the real world chances are it was more likely to be Saturn talking to her than "God". My point being that Brian should calm down, as it most likely (to a factor of almost n) wasn't a "God" talking to her.

I mean, even those of the strongest "faith" cannot merely hear a sound and be adamant that that sound was God, without considering the more plausible explanations accompanying it. Such an attitude would lead us well back to the days of worshiping the Sun God "Ra" and sacrificing one another in his glory.

Get it straight, God is alive and well and He communicates with us. Sometimes audibly. Deal with it and accept it. There are no other possibilities.

Just like 1 + 1 will equal 2. Not 3 or 4, but 2.

BrianCalgary

patmartino wrote: »

I did not mean to offend Brian or his wife, but when someone tells you that they converse with GOD in a 2 way conversation there are issues of delusion

No there aren't issues of delusion. Just because YOU don't accept the truth does not mean it doesn't exist.

Turtwig

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Get it straight, God is alive and well and He communicates with us. Sometimes audibly. Deal with it and accept it. There are no other possibilities.

Just like 1 + 1 will equal 2. Not 3 or 4, but 2.

There are other possibilities to it, I just want you to accept that.
Accepting the existence of these possibilities doesn't mean your version isn't true it is simply an acknowledgement of other factors that could also influence the result.
All things in life have more than one possible explanation.
That's all I want you to realise.

Turtwig

Rb wrote: »

Um, no. Just no.

The probability of a dog being able to talk is not zero, nor is the probability of a god talking to someone. If you can't see why then I'm not going to bother explaining it. Also I have a feeling you could be confusing the ability to talk with the ability to converse.

Dog's cannot talk to humans in a way that is audibly understood, it's simply NOT possible.
Therefore the probability for your excuse of it being a dog HAS to be ZERO.
We cannot assign a probability to God's existence, so if we assume His existence as Brian describes Him is possible then the probability of Him speaking has to be non-zero.

BrianCalgary

Jakkass wrote: »

I think a lot of Christians struggle with finding time for prayers, particularly as work life, social lives, and so on start to occupy our time. I'd also be interested in hearing what other Christians feel about this issue with time and prayer and finding enough of it. Surely it can't be just me?
.

No it's not just you. I just try and have an ongoing conversation with God and mutter to Him constantly. Instead of a sit down and rhyme off my list type of prayer.

As I sit at my computer I'll just ask Him to be with ?????? as they do ????? today. Also ok God what is it you would have me do in such and such a situation?

I thnk we all struggle with prayer and would probably say that we don't do it enough.

Turtwig

patmartino wrote: »

I did not mean to offend Brian or his wife, but when someone tells you that they converse with GOD in a 2 way conversation there are issues of delusion

Indeed there may be issues of delusion, but you have admit that it might not be the case either.

BrianCalgary

Malty_T wrote: »

There are other possibilities to it, I just want you to accept that.
Accepting the existence of these possibilities doesn't mean your version isn't true it is simply an acknowledgement of other factors that could also influence the result.
All things in life have more than one possible explanation.
That's all I want you to realise.

All thing in life do not have other possibilties. this morning I spoke with Kevin on the phone. There are no other possibilities that it was anyone but Kevin. It was not an alien or a dog. It was Kevin, plain and simple.

Rb

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Get it straight, God is alive and well and He communicates with us. Sometimes audibly. Deal with it and accept it. There are no other possibilities.

Just like 1 + 1 will equal 2. Not 3 or 4, but 2.

Are you joking? I can't really tell.

You're claiming this is the truth? Really? Without one ounce of evidence and a plethora of other reasons, including insanity, being an immeasurable amount more probable that what you're suggesting?

And then you claim there's no delusion involved?

Whatever about faith, but such irrationality closed-mindedness can only lead to bad things.

philologos

Rb: You're bringing this thread slightly off topic.

The OP is asking why we pray, not whether or not there is such a being as God to pray to.

The former has the potential to be more interesting than the latter. Not only the potential to be interesting, but it allows Christians to share with eachother for once rather than dealing with atheists objections.

BrianCalgary

Rb wrote: »

Are you joking? I can't really tell.

You're claiming this is the truth? Really? Without one ounce of evidence and a plethora of other reasons, including insanity, being an immeasurable amount more probable that what you're suggesting?

And then you claim there's no delusion involved?

Whatever about faith, but such irrationality closed-mindedness can only lead to bad things.

there is no closed mindedness going on at all. Produce a talking dog that was present at the time or an alien that was also present at the time and I'll consider the possibility.

Or the potential of a creaking house or something else happening.
Also produce any other irrational behaviour that has occured on a consistent basis that would lead you to your possible conclusions and thenwe can talk.

You have failed to produce one shred of evidence that even supports your potential other possibilities, yet have closed your mind completely to the possibility that God can and will speak audibly to His people.

Sam Vimes

Malty_T wrote: »

Dog's cannot talk to humans in a way that is audibly understood, it's simply NOT possible.

Have you met my friend Charles Darwin

BrianCalgary wrote: »

there is no closed mindedness going on at all. Produce a talking dog that was present at the time or an alien that was also present at the time and I'll consider the possibility.

Or the potential of a creaking house or something else happening.
Also produce any other irrational behaviour that has occured on a consistent basis that would lead you to your possible conclusions and thenwe can talk.

You have failed to produce one shred of evidence that even supports your potential other possibilities, yet have closed your mind completely to the possibility that God can and will speak audibly to His people.

Are you saying that it is not possible that the house creaked or a wind blew and your wife's brain misinterpreted as speech? Is that something that you consider to be completely impossible to the point that it must have been Yahweh? We weren't there at the time and so of course cannot say definitively if the house creaked or not but we can list many many possibilities that can make someone think they have heard a voice when they in fact haven't.


Take a look at this:

That's just a yellow circle with two dots and a curved line but we both see a face. That is the amazing modelling ability of our brain, it takes in everything it sees and filters it through its understanding to try to tell you what you're seeing with only the slightest glance. You can pick a single face out of a crowd of hundreds of people, you can hear a particular pitch and recognise it as a particular person's voice, you can see some squiggly lines on a piece of paper and without even thinking interpret it as text and visualise anything being described. But you can also see a shadow and think it's a burglar, hear a wind and think it's a voice, you can see a face in a tree, you can perceive things that are not there. Your brain is the world's most powerful supercomputer and it tries to find meaning and purpose in everything and sometimes it misfires. It doesn't mean you're insane, it's a normal function of the human mind that is helpful in 99% of cases. It most likely evolved because some our ancestors saw a rock where others saw the crocodile that was about to pounce and the ones that correctly perceived the purpose didn't get eaten.

Here's a post of mine from a few months ago where it kept happening to me over and over again:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61710302&postcount=122

I knew what the picture was of but every time I saw it out of the corner of my eye my brain kept misinterpreting it as donkey from shrek. Very frustrating but it reminds me how flawed our perception is. Your wife may indeed have conversed with Yahweh but you must at least admit that other explanations can also explain what she experienced.

philologos

Sam, your point reminds me of a certain section of the God Delusion that I found quite funny as I read it

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Sam, your point reminds me of a certain section of the God Delusion that I found quite funny as I read it

The one where the wind kept blowing through the door and he kept hearing a voice?

BrianCalgary

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Are you saying that it is not possible that the house creaked or a wind blew and your wife's brain misinterpreted as speech? Is that something that you consider to be completely impossible to the point that it must have been Yahweh? We weren't there at the time and so of course cannot say definitively if the house creaked or not but we can list many many possibilities that can make someone think they have heard a voice when they in fact haven't.
Your wife may indeed have conversed with Yahweh but you must at least admit that other explanations can also explain what she experienced.

No its not possible as we didn't live in a creaky house and there was no wind and a voice sounds very different from both.

You weren't there yet you refuse to accept the fact that God spoke in an audible voice and you come up with all these possibilites that aren't possibilities.