Christians defacing monuments of other faiths

roger_pearse

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I didnt claim that ceremonial event have been happening at the prechristian monuments for thousands of years. I meant that, in New Grange for example at every summer solstice the sun enters the light box and illuminates the inner chamber. This happens in many places. It happens in late Dec. Where christmas now happens.

Ah, I misunderstood. But I don't quite see how this helps the case, you know?

I think the problem is that we're taking the argument too fast, you see, and skipping over quite a lot of steps. Before we can evaluate it, it has to be laid out properly. Something like:

1. What the facts are
2. How we know what the facts mean
3. How any of this might relate to Christmas
4. How we know that it does

Where each step is either a verifiable fact which can be kicked or looked up in a reference book, or else a valid deduction from the previous step.

Otherwise we risk the Atlantis argument: "there's pyramids in Egypt and in Mexico, so Atlantis must have existed". Which breaks down:

1. There are pyramids in Mexico and in Egypt, albeit not identical - true
2. The similarity cannot be explained except by connection or derivation -- false; gravity will cause people building to build pyramids.
3. If the two are connected, the only possible explanation is a common source for both; false - several other explanations are possible.

Omission of steps of reasoning is the key requirement for these fallacies to fly.

I hope that doesn't sound pompous. Once you've seen a few of these turkeys trying to fly, as I have, they start to sound very similar and you can see the weak points, the bits slurred over, and so on. There are legions of these things.

None of which proves that Christianity is true (or false, if we prefer); it's just general good practice when evaluating claims that "history proves <insert controversial claim here>"

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Fanny Cradock

roger_pearse wrote: »

Ah, they got you anyhow! Constantine has no association with Christmas. It wasn't an official festival in his time.

Interesting! Any sources for this? I´ve long thought that he established it.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interesting! Any sources for this? I´ve long thought that he established it.

I've always understood that the date of December 25th was fixed by Pope Julius I. Two differing dates are given for this according to various sources. One is 320AD - during Constantine's reign, but Julius was not yet Bishop of Rome at that time. The other is 349AD - after the death of Constantine.

roger_pearse

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Interesting! Any sources for this? I´ve long thought that he established it.

I don't have anything to quote you. But the idea is a confusion with Easter. The First Council of Nicaea harmonised the date of Easter between East and West; and Constantine was present at the council.

As far as I know, there is no evidence of Christmas being celebrated in Rome on Dec. 25 before the "Chronography of 354" AD. This is a miscellaneous text (which is online). In one part of it there is mention of Christmas. But some parts of this text date earlier than 354 AD.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

mardybumbum

PDN wrote: »

I made a rather poor point (that if religion is detrimental, then the Taliban were doing something useful by destroying religious symbols). That point was well answered, so I dropped it.

Ah, I didnt know you you had admitted your original point was poor.
That was the only thing I had a problem with.
Apologies.