Would you find this offensive?

Antbert

This is sort of a carryover from the A&A forum (here's the thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055726679) about funerals.

If you aren't bothered to read I'll summarise: It's turned into an argument about whether or not it matters if people who aren't religious don't follow the usual protocol in a funeral mass (such as kneeling, standing etc.). One side say that as they aren't Catholic (it's predominantly talking about Catholic funerals) they see no reason to partake in the ritual as they're only there to honour the death of someone they cared about. The other side say that it may be offensive to the grieving family (or generally people close to the person that died) that they won't just participate in something that is essentially meaningless to them, for the sake of the occasion.

So, I'd like to know from Catholics firstly, is it offensive? Would you be offended if you were at a funeral and someone didn't sit, stand and kneel? Secondly, if it's offensive, why? I don't mean a 'they can't just suck it up for one day...' reason, I want to know the actual reason why.

lmaopml

Good post Antbert.

Tbh, I don't usually notice one way or the other....Unless somebody was going out of their way to be noticed 'making a stand' or lack thereof lol I wouldn't notice.

...and if I did notice somebody doing that, I'd just think they were a bit of a gob****e.

If I went to a Muslim country I would respect their customs and take my shoes off entering a mosque etc. It's just basic manners, respect and breeding.

homer911

As a Presbyterian, I'd say let your conscience guide you - what ever feels right and appropriate - this goes for whatever church you are in..

mikemac

If I went to another country I'd respect their custom
If somebody wants to attend a Catholic mass and not partake in communion that's fine. And say nothing, never repeat a prayer, that's fine too.

But if everyone is standing or kneeling and you can't be bothered then that's just drawing attention to yourself.
It isn't taking a stand, it's just being awkward.

Would you wear boots into a mosque if you visited one on holidays?
Just basic manners is all that's required you don't have to say anything or ever meet a priest or equivalent.

MagicMarker

mikemac wrote: »

If I went to another country I'd respect their custom
If somebody wants to attend a Catholic mass and not partake in communion that's fine. And say nothing, never repeat a prayer, that's fine too.

But if everyone is standing or kneeling and you can't be bothered then that's just drawing attention to yourself.
It isn't taking a stand, it's just being awkward.

Would you wear boots into a mosque if you visited one on holidays?
Just basic manners is all that's required you don't have to say anything or ever meet a priest or equivalent.

If you're a christian why would you visit a mosque in another country?

mikemac

Was just an example.
If on an holiday it might be something you might do.
Or maybe not

As I said, just an example.
Thousands of Irish people work in the Middle East, mainly as teachers or in engineering. I'd say they respect local customs.

And I'd think the OP would expect Irish people who visit a church to do the same

lmaopml

In saying that I think it's a bit juvenile to go to mass with the deliberate intention of 'declaring' yourself not a Catholic... I do however understand that some people are just 'visiting'. While standing and sitting are part and parcel of the celebration of the mass. Catholics would consider kneeling during the consecration a recognition of Christs real presence....

I do believe that most should perhaps go with whatever guides them...Personally, I would imagine it is more offensive to a Catholic who 'knows' somebody is merely 'visiting' their church to receive communion....

...However, in saying all of that. Everybody is their own person at the end of the day, and I don't go around with my judgy pants on all the time at mass, I'm merely there to take part in the most important part of my faith, and I leave others to their own devices. Hope this helps...:)

postcynical

Antbert wrote: »

This is sort of a carryover from the A&A forum (here's the thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055726679) about funerals.

If you aren't bothered to read I'll summarise: It's turned into an argument about whether or not it matters if people who aren't religious don't follow the usual protocol in a funeral mass (such as kneeling, standing etc.). One side say that as they aren't Catholic (it's predominantly talking about Catholic funerals) they see no reason to partake in the ritual as they're only there to honour the death of someone they cared about. The other side say that it's offensive to the grieving family (or generally people close to the person that died) that they won't just participate in something that is essentially meaningless to them, for the sake of the occasion.

So, I'd like to know from Catholics firstly, is it offensive? Would you be offended if you were at a funeral and someone didn't sit, stand and kneel? Secondly, if it's offensive, why? I don't mean a 'they can't just suck it up for one day...' reason, I want to know the actual reason why.

Not at all offensive as a Catholic. Most of us went to Mass many times before we understood what was happening. If somebody was actively mocking the Mass or a Catholic (or other Christian) was using the Mass to make a statement then I'd be offended but the "mistakes" or "faux-pas" of a guest would be in no way offensive. Active non-participation would not be offensive either!

In the circumstances of a funeral, if I were bereaved and somebody was making their own pettiness the centre of attention then I'd be offended, whether I was Catholic or not.

postcynical

lmaopml wrote: »

While standing and sitting are part and parcel of the celebration of the mass. Catholics would consider kneeling during the consecration a recognition of Christs real presence....

Hi lmaopml (does that stand for anything funny;))

A bit off-topic but do you find a lot of older Irish Catholics kneel too much during the Mass? I thought kneeling was for personal petition with God, whereas Mass is a communal celebration and so we should stand and pray?

Antbert

You see, I'm on the side where I don't see it as being offensive (quite obvious if you read the other thread). I don't go to mass, except when obliged by a funeral or wedding. So it's not like I go to mass every Sunday and deliberately make a big show of not participating.

When I go to a funeral, I'm there because it just so happens that the ceremony honouring someone I cared about is religious. I wouldn't not go on the basis of not being religious. However, I'm there because someone I cared about died, not because I'm religious. The mass means nothing to me. I don't make a show of not standing and kneeling, how would I? I just don't do it. It isn't even conscious. I am, as you say, a visitor. And even if it's noticable, surely the grieving Catholics would just think, if anything, 'oh, she must not be Catholic. She must just be here because so and so died.'

I find this thread very interesting as I think (THINK) it's a load of atheists on the other thread arguing about whether or not it's offensive to Catholics.

lmaopml

lol postcynical, yeah I don't there is any hard and fast rule.....other than during the consecration, I would defo kneel then. I stand for the creed.

Antbert, I understand now where you are coming from. At first, until I read the other thread, I thought you were talking about going to mass with the intention of showing your indifference. As it stands, ALL people are welcome to come to mass and to join in if they want. There are no hard and fast rules for visitors who may attend a funeral or wedding etc. other than being polite I suppose.....and even that isn't a 'rule'! It's just the bar most people set for themselves. Once your not being openly ridiculing, there is no harm in sitting quietly...and following your own etiquette and what makes you comfortable, so long as it's not compromising others....

I think any practicing Catholic would have respect for a person of another faith attending a mass during a funeral or wedding if they sat quietly while others receive communion....It would perhaps be more ridiculing to those family or friends around you if you had already made yourself publicly aware to them that you are of another faith and decided to join in with Communion. As it stands though, there are many reasons why people of another faith would be in attendance at mass and those Catholics who have left our judgy pants at the door would understand this, and would welcome them on thier own terms so long as they are polite...and don't make a spectacle of themselves.

I buried my father about three months ago, and I can assure you that I would not have noticed or sweated the small stuff during the funeral mass....

Antbert

lmaopml wrote: »

Antbert, I understand now where you are coming from. At first, until I read the other thread, I thought you were talking about going to mass with the intention of showing your indifference. As it stands, ALL people are welcome to come to mass and to join in if they want. There are no hard and fast rules for visitors who may attend a funeral or wedding etc. other than being polite I suppose.....and even that isn't a 'rule'! It's just the bar most people set for themselves. Once your not being openly ridiculing, there is no harm in sitting quietly...and following your own etiquette and what makes you comfortable, so long as it's not compromising others....

Ah ok. Perhaps I should have made that more clear in the OP. Well I would only ever go to mass for a funeral. I have no interest in going to a mass and making a protest. It would surely be just as annoying as I (and probably many of the Christians on the board) would find Religious street preachers.

I buried my father about three months ago, and I can assure you that I would not have noticed or sweated the small stuff during the funeral mass....

I am sorry to hear that, and this is pretty much exactly what I thought in the previous thread.

lmaopml

Antbert wrote: »

Ah ok. Perhaps I should have made that more clear in the OP. Well I would only ever go to mass for a funeral. I have no interest in going to a mass and making a protest. It would surely be just as annoying as I (and probably many of the Christians on the board) would find Religious street preachers

Tbh Antbert, I don't really find them annoying. I think everybody is only finding their way....and everybody has the same questions, fears, beliefs in 'something'..... I would feel that as a normal Joe I don't really have the right to interfere with or condemn somebody else, just explain myself if needs be......While it's perfectly fine to 'visit' a Catholic Church, and most definitely all are welcome.. I guess at the end of the day as a normal human being I would regard somebody who tried ( while still staying true to their own beliefs ) to partake in the less stressful stuff, like maybe offering the sign of peace and reaching their hand out to their neighbour....as somebody who is kind of mindful of others..

There are some things about the mass that are more 'human' in nature and design than subjecting oneself to a 'dogma' of belief.....There would be no requirement to do any 'subjecting'.....except perhaps just being polite and act humanly with the people who are there at the time.

Antbert

lmaopml wrote: »

Tbh Antbert, I don't really find them annoying. I think everybody is only finding their way....and everybody has the same questions, fears, beliefs in 'something'..... I would feel that as a normal Joe I don't really have the right to interfere with or condemn somebody else, just explain myself if needs be......While it's perfectly fine to 'visit' a Catholic Church, and most definitely all are welcome.. I guess at the end of the day as a normal human being I would regard somebody who tried ( while still staying true to their own beliefs ) to partake in the less stressful stuff, like maybe offering the sign of peace and reaching their hand out to their neighbour....as somebody who is kind of mindful of others..

The only time I would ever 'visit' a church is at a funeral or wedding. In this case, the actual mass part is irrelevant to my reason for being there. If someone went to shake my hand I certainly wouldn't refuse them, as that would just be rude. I still wouldn't kneel/sit etc. as the meaning behind it means nothing to me (I'm not trying to be rude about what it means to you) and it isn't my reason for being there.

I don't think we're actually even arguing... Just clarifying.

Red Alert

Everyone is their own person at the beginning and end of the day, and should show respect to those different to them. If I was visiting a mosque, I'd ensure that I treated the muslim's sacred ground with the same respect I'd treat a church. That means respecting silence, rules about shoes, not disturbing people praying, and paying due reverance to sacred fixtures. I'd expect non-catholics to sit, stand and kneel - or stand or sit in the back row: that way they're not disturbing the view of the altar, and they're free to express or not their own personal views.

Antbert

Red Alert wrote: »

Everyone is their own person at the beginning and end of the day, and should show respect to those different to them.

If everyone is their own person, then why pretend to be a Catholic when you're at a funeral?

If I was visiting a mosque, I'd ensure that I treated the muslim's sacred ground with the same respect I'd treat a church. That means respecting silence, rules about shoes, not disturbing people praying, and paying due reverance to sacred fixtures.

Not being disruptive is entirely different to paying due reverence to sacred fixtures. The only reason I would ever be in a Mosque would be to attend a Muslim funeral. In which case I wouldn't disrupt anyone, but I wouldn't partake in any religious customs.

I'd expect non-catholics to sit, stand and kneel - or stand or sit in the back row: that way they're not disturbing the view of the altar, and they're free to express or not their own personal views.

I'm not sure if I'm over-reading into this, so if I am i'll humbly retract it, but it looks like you're saying that unless you're willing to be Catholic you have no place in the church unless you're hidden.

The fact is, I'm not visiting a church. I'm there for a specific reason, which is actually irrelevant to the religious aspect. I would be polite, as I would be in any similar scenario. I'd sit quietly. I don't see why it's actually offensive if I don't participate. And I would genuinely like to know the reason it's disrespectful. Because surely the sitting/kneeling/standing is in response to honouring God. If I don't believe in God, then why can't I just stay sitting?

BrianCalgary

postcynical wrote: »

In the circumstances of a funeral, if I were bereaved and somebody was making their own pettiness the centre of attention then I'd be offended, whether I was Catholic or not.

Perfect. I was at a funeral last week of a friend. He was catholic and sitting in front of me was the mother of our GK, who is Muslim, She was great and tried to sit and stand and kneel as appropriate.

But someone who is an ex-catholic and wants to be bloody minded, they are being quite the jerk.

The state of the heart.

prinz

MagicMarker wrote: »

If you're a christian why would you visit a mosque in another country?

Some of the world's best architecture, decorative arts, historical interest etc? I have visited synagogues with no problems, would be happy to visit a mosque.

As for the OP, make an effort and show some respect. The lengths people will go to just to be 'different' :rolleyes:. I have seen an entire extended French atheist family follow the kneeling, standing, sitting etc to a tee, they were told they could just sit, but were horrifed at the thought. They didn't want to be insulting to their hosts.

tbh in the moment of a funeral of a friend or relative or something I probably wouldn't register it. If I realised that someone was just doing it basically out of spite then I wouldn't be very happy at all.

Dades

BrianCalgary wrote: »

But someone who is an ex-catholic and wants to be bloody minded, they are being quite the jerk.

So should they take communion too?

I think you've answered the OP, however, in that there are people who sit at funerals judging other people on the basis of how much of a charade they put on.

Red Alert

I'm not saying you should be 'hidden' in that it's no place for people who aren't practising the religion. People like to concentrate when they pray so less distractions make it more easy for them.

BrianCalgary

Dades wrote: »

So should they take communion too?

That's between them and God.

I'm not a practicing Catholic yet I took communion, which will miff the more conservative Catholic yet would be welcomed by the more ecumenical of them who would even know me.

Antbert

Well, could you accept that when I don't sit/stand/kneel that I'm not deliberately trying to be offensive? I don't mean that it won't necessarily be taken that way (clearly, it will) but I'd like to think that people at least know it isn't deliberately trying to make a protest.

BrianCalgary

Antbert wrote: »

Well, could you accept that when I don't sit/stand/kneel that I'm not deliberately trying to be offensive? I don't mean that it won't necessarily be taken that way (clearly, it will) but I'd like to think that people at least know it isn't deliberately trying to make a protest.

It woul ddepend on the person, but geez, what's wrong with making an effort like my Muslim friend?

prinz

Antbert wrote: »

Well, could you accept that when I don't sit/stand/kneel that I'm not deliberately trying to be offensive? I don't mean that it won't necessarily be taken that way (clearly, it will) but I'd like to think that people at least know it isn't deliberately trying to make a protest.

Except it is a deliberate act on your part to willingly do something to make a point.

I would see it similar to someone mouthing off during a minute's silence. Maybe you didn't like the person, but so what, show some respect to the people around you or to the person being remembered.

time42play

Red Alert wrote: »

I'm not saying you should be 'hidden' in that it's no place for people who aren't practising the religion. People like to concentrate when they pray so less distractions make it more easy for them.

Fair enough. I prefer sitting quietly in the back row anyway on the rare occasions I am forced to attend a mass. Based on personal experience I don't believe the catholic church as an institution deserves my respect (and therefore don't feel the need to sit-stand-kneel on cue), but I am not trying to offend those who feel differently or "make a point".

prinz

time42play wrote: »

Fair enough. I prefer sitting quietly in the back row anyway on the rare occasions I am forced to attend a mass. Based on personal experience I don't believe the catholic church as an institution deserves my respect..

What the person the funeral is for? Or the fellow members of the congregation - do they deserve less respect?

On the other hand if that's what you want to do then I think sitting quietly at the back is the right thing to do, and I wouldn't find that offensive tbh.

Dades

BrianCalgary wrote: »

That's between them and God.

Does not compute!

BrianCalgary wrote: »

It woul ddepend on the person, but geez, what's wrong with making an effort like my Muslim friend?

I'd agree - standing and sitting should be for everyone - but kneeling? Isn't that just odd? If you visited a mosque would you hunker down and put your head to the floor?

prinz wrote: »

Except it is a deliberate act on your part to willingly do something to make a point.

No more than a non-catholic doesn't go to mass to make a point.

Though if someone sat throughout a whole funeral I'd agree with you.

prinz

Dades wrote: »

Does not compute!
I'd agree - standing and sitting should be for everyone - but kneeling? Isn't that just odd? If you visited a mosque would you hunker down and put your head to the floor?

If I had been invited to attend and participate I would. If I had happened to wander in during a service, I think I would kneel and bow my head.

Turtwig

prinz wrote: »

Some of the world's best architecture, decorative arts, historical interest etc? I have visited synagogues with no problems, would be happy to visit a mosque.

Ditto here...in fact I want to visit a mosque sometime.:D

Personally regardless of the religion (unless it's what I would consider inhumane) I follow their practices when on their grounds even if I think some of them are hogwash.
As an atheist, the whole notion of kneeling doesn't bother me (it's less painful than the kneeling method one can use when meditating!:)), receiving communion isn't a problem either, prayers of the faithful and reading aren't a problem either. Though I must admit once I realised I was an atheist I rejected the requests to do Sunday/Saturday readings, only do them now at funerals and the like.
Mass is not just a Christian thing, it's also a sort of cultural thing, for this reason I think anyone who attends it should uphold the cultural principles and seek to avoid conflict by suppressing their identity for at least 2 hours (that's the longest mass I've been to, I assume they're not longer than that.).

On a side note: I rather enjoy the mass in my home area..so maybe I'm being biased here as the amount of "miserable" masses I've been at are, well, minute.

Edit : On another sorta side note, How do Christians feel about atheists singing Christmas Carols because I know some that do?

BrianCalgary

Dades wrote: »

Does not compute!
I'd agree - standing and sitting should be for everyone - but kneeling? Isn't that just odd? If you visited a mosque would you hunker down and put your head to the floor?

No more than a non-catholic doesn't go to mass to make a point.

Though if someone sat throughout a whole funeral I'd agree with you.

Communion is for the believer, so whether or not someone partakes is their decision and will be between the person and God to sort out, not me.

I dont know if I'd hunker down or not, not ever being to a mosque and not knowing exactly what goes on, I'd just try and be as respectful as possible. Also I'd talk it over with the person I was going with as to what the expectations were of a non-muslim visitor.

tbh the only reason I noticed my muslim friend is because she was seated right in front of me, I didn't notice any one else and there were a lot of non-catholics at this service. I was at a confirmation recently and the only offense were the comments from the kid sitting behind us, uncalled for snide remarks that disturbed the oher worshippers.

time42play

prinz wrote: »

What the person the funeral is for? Or the fellow members of the congregation - do they deserve less respect?

The congregation does deserve some respect, which is why I would first try to find an excuse not to attend and, if unavoidable, do my best to stay out of their view while there (and would shake any hand extended to me during that bit). But that's as far as my conscience leads me to go. As for the deceased, if we were that close they'd have known my views and would not have expected active participation from me.

prinz wrote: »

On the other hand if that's what you want to do then I think sitting quietly at the back is the right thing to do, and I wouldn't find that offensive tbh.

Thanks.

postcynical

Dades wrote: »

So should they take communion too?

If somebody innocently takes communion by following the crowd, or somebody has good intentions then it's not really a problem for anyone. But for a non-believer who knows what communion means it would be more respectful to not take it. However, sometimes lapsed Catholics take these occasions to make their own peace with God, even if just temporarily so I hope I'd never judge any of my atheist friends who received at a funeral.

I think you've answered the OP, however, in that there are people who sit at funerals judging other people on the basis of how much of a charade they put on.

Surely not. What a sad state of affairs:(

Can believers not just focus on God's presence and prayers for the deceased and non-believers not just focus on the deceased and their memory and loved ones' grief. Surely people can get over their adolescent point-scoring on such occasions?

Xluna

Despite the vile atheist that I am, I would have no problem offering lip service in a religious funeral. They just lost a loved one.There grief is more important to me than my principles. Have a bit more empathy lads.

BrianCalgary

Xluna wrote: »

Despite the vile atheist that I am, I would have no problem offering lip service in a religious funeral. They just lost a loved one.There grief is more important to me than my principles. Have a bit more empathy lads.

Thanks a bunch for that Xluna. :)

lmaopml

Antbert wrote: »

The only time I would ever 'visit' a church is at a funeral or wedding. In this case, the actual mass part is irrelevant to my reason for being there. If someone went to shake my hand I certainly wouldn't refuse them, as that would just be rude. I still wouldn't kneel/sit etc. as the meaning behind it means nothing to me (I'm not trying to be rude about what it means to you) and it isn't my reason for being there.

I don't think we're actually even arguing... Just clarifying.

Antbert, your right I'm not arguing at all, and I think it's a great subject to get 'clarity' on because with our more diverse society, it will inevitably lead to more awareness of others too.......I certainly do believe that it is up to the individual....and I guess the 'tutting' is something that both of us on either side of the 'faith' divide will have to live with lol.....People of another 'faith' will 'tut' (inwardly hopefully) because others are kneeling and have private thoughts about it - and the people who are Catholic will 'tut' because others are not kneeling and have private thoughts about it....

Nothing we can do about that....except perhaps become more aware at funerals and weddings that there may be people of many faiths in attendance...

...but yes, your choices make perfect sense to me, and I would respect your choice to sit quietly with no problems whatsoever....I'm just there, as I say, to mind 'myself' and pray and take part 'myself'.....

Offering your hand or taking part in the more 'human' rather than 'subjecting' elements of the mass would defo get a thumbs up from the congregation in attendance though...as I say, it's all in the delivery.....

...same as if I met you in my home...:)

Dades

Xluna wrote: »

Despite the vile atheist that I am, I would have no problem offering lip service in a religious funeral. They just lost a loved one.There grief is more important to me than my principles. Have a bit more empathy lads.

I think at this point we need to clarify what people are actually doing at funerals. There are degrees of empathy offered and not-offered.

(1) Standing/sitting when appropriate
(2) Kneeling
(3) Blessing yourself
(4) Mouthing off prayers.
(5) Taking communion

Personally, I feel (1) is compulsory - but enough. The rest aren't obvious enough to be really noticed by someone, unless that someone is out to notice stuff like that. I'll caveat that by suggesting (2) & (3) might be appropriate if you are in the midst of the deceased's family (though as my wife likes to sit near an exit I'm usually down the back!).

This question isn't whether it's okay to lie on a pew at the back listening to Eels on your iPod and reading The God Delusion, it's whether it's really necessary to completely pretend you are a catholic.

Antbert

Xluna wrote: »

Despite the vile atheist that I am, I would have no problem offering lip service in a religious funeral. They just lost a loved one.There grief is more important to me than my principles. Have a bit more empathy lads.

Their grief is probably more important than their principles also.