Climategate?

Turtwig

mgmt wrote: »

What are the "climate change" fascists fighting for?

Fascists?

-"Climate Justice" i.e. socialism

Nope.

-Carbon Tax on everything

Nope.

-Carbon trading

Nope.

-Higher electricity prices to subsidize uneconomical (and unworkable) wind power

Higher electricity prices are not solely caused by subsidies for wind power, which is more workable than you think.

-No motorways

If by this you are referring the idea of reducing all national speed limits to 80 km/hr, then you should be aware that regardless of speed limit a motorway is still a motorway.

-No air travel

No flying during night would be a very good idea and we would easily get used to it.

-Turn everyone vegan

This simply would not be workable or even offers us a solution for climate change. That said, everyone going one day without eating meat would be beneficial towards combating climate change.

-Force everyone to use public transport.

Not force, but the use of public transport should definitely be encouraged even if only to reduce traffic congestion.

-Lower economic outputs (punish the west)

The west will be punished a heck of a lot more in the long run.

-Waste taxpayers money on lowering the "carbon footprint" by building unwanted projects e.g. london-birmingham maglev

It's going to be wasted anyways, so why not make the environment that bit better.

mgmt

mgmt wrote: »

hmm are you talking about people going "without" their electricity connection (900 a month) because John Gormley raised the ESB prices to allow wind energy to be competitive?

Going way OT here now, but most of those properties are unoccupied.
As for the other stuff, one of the mods moved a few posts to a new thread.

mgmt

Malty_T wrote: »

Fascists?

Yes "climate change" enthusiasts want to use the AGW scam to implement oppressive policies (see my previous post) that will limit your freedom of choice, freedom of movement and redistribute your wealth.

Malty_T wrote: »

Higher electricity prices are not solely caused by subsidies for wind power, which is more workable than you think.

Your joking right! Take a look at the eirgrid website. Ireland has over 1100MW of Wind Power installed. This is maximum output power though. Most of the time wind only produces about 250MW. A fraction. John Gormley has jacked up the price of electricity to subsidise this wind power. Look at Denmark (wind power capital of europe), it has the highest electricity prices in the eurozone. France has the lowest (nuclear). Indeed Denmark has not closed a single fossil fuel plant(link). Wave power is another scam on the "climate change" horizon.

Malty_T wrote: »

It's going to be wasted anyways, so why not make the environment that bit better.

Thats a great response...I however believe that the individual can decide whats best for their money. Not give it away in taxes to some ecofascist to spend on "climate change" ads.

Malty_T wrote: »

The Karl Marx utopia does not work.

djpbarry

Can I remind everyone that this thread is supposed to be about certain leaked emails and related issues. Discussion of electricity levies (for example) is off-topic.

djpbarry

mgmt wrote: »

What are the "climate change" fascists fighting for?

Who exactly are the "climate change fascists"? Are we referring to a particular group, or is it just a pejorative term used to describe anyone who disagrees with you on the subject?

mgmt

djpbarry wrote: »

Who exactly are the "climate change fascists"? Are we referring to a particular group, or is it just a pejorative term used to describe anyone who disagrees with you on the subject?

This is the kind of thought process these fundamentalists believe in:

djpbarry wrote: »

But Irish people don’t want a ‘low carbon’ lifestyle. They want a semi-detached house with a nice big garden for their decking and at least one car on the driveway (generally speaking). You can criticise the government for fostering an environment in which the above lifestyle was championed (and I’m certainly not saying that they should not be criticised), but it’s not like the general populace were pushing for an alternative. Now that the Greens have come along and intimated that what we’ve been doing is unsustainable and we need to change our ways (and I’m certainly not saying I agree with everything the Greens propose), we’re told that they’re going to go the way of the PD’s at the next election.

They believe that everyday joe soap is stupid, that big government needs to look after them. Afterall, "green is the new red".

djpbarry

mgmt wrote: »

djpbarry wrote: »

Who exactly are the "climate change fascists"? Are we referring to a particular group, or is it just a pejorative term used to describe anyone who disagrees with you on the subject?

This is the kind of thought process these fundamentalists believe in...

So that would be the latter then.

mgmt wrote: »

They believe that everyday joe soap is stupid, that big government needs to look after them. Afterall, "green is the new red".

Ignoring for a moment that you have (deliberately) taken my post out of context in a lame attempt to portray me as some kind of fascist (and the fact that this is again veering off-topic)...

I don’t think people are stupid. I do however believe that people frequently do stupid things and make poor decisions. What’s more, people want regulation (e.g., the financial regulator) to protect them from the consequences of their poor decisions, or to avoid making poor decisions in the first place. If you want to discuss this further, I suggest you do so in the relevant thread.

Now, do you actually have anything to contribute to the subject of this thread? Or are you just here to rant about “climate change fascists”?

coletti

mgmt wrote: »

What are the "climate change" fascists fighting for?
-"Climate Justice" i.e. socialism

While it's easy to make that assessment, the more usual judgement is that this is leading to a World government. If you think a World government might be a good thing, then look at out attempts to create an EU "government" which leads to such appalling things as, for example, the european arrest warrant, is designed to limit our democratic freedoms.

djpbarry

coletti wrote: »

...the more usual judgement is that this is leading to a World government.

Conspiracy theories are also off-topic.

Another element of the whole AGW/manmade climate change is the possibility that is was created to scare people into reducing their oil consumption by making them feel guilty for wrecking the planet, as well as making some people very rich by creating costs out of thin(carbon) air!


This is the latest chart from the IEA, which appears to deny the fact that oil production has peaked and is now declining.
To me it appears that both the IPCC and the IEA are being dishonest and have separatly mislead the public into believing that the consequences of excessive consumption of fossil fuels were going to be an overcooked planet rather than being truthful and making public the real reason.
That real reason is the hard fact that there will soon be insufficient oil to maintain the current (American) way of life that is enjoyed by many in the west!
The real reasons for energy conversation should have been made public decades ago (well Carter did start the ball rolling but it was killed by Regan) then Al Gore and others saw a way to exploit the natural variations in the Earth's climate to make a fast buck. Nice to see that that (carbon trading) is now being dismanteled.

http://bigjournalism.com/wthuston/2010/11/08/al-gores-climate-exchange-utterly-fails-media-ignores-it-all/

Al Gore’s much ballyhooed Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) has recently announced that it will no longer be engaging in carbon trading, an activity that was the sole purpose that it was created. This is an utter failure of purpose in global warming hysteria yet the Old Media is almost completely silent on this colossal failure.
Why has the media remained utterly quite on this abject failure after unleashing on the public an avalanche of stories that touted the creation of the CCX back in 2000 — and since for that matter?

The main reason that the CCX has failed, of course, is because the world has cooled for global warming. With the recent election results in the U.S. cap and trade is as much as a dead issue and even other nations are shying away from Kyoto-styled global warming laws that tend to crush economies while offering little by way of global warming fixes.

Worse, with the emergence of the lies and obfuscation by global warming religionists as evinced in the email chain from the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, the credibility of global warming pseudo science has taken a major hit. It all looks like globaloney at this point.

On top of all that is the worldwide depression that has hit us all. The depression has also helped destroy the starry eyed nonsense that is carbon trading. Rich societies with nothing else to do with their money might have the resources for such silliness, but countries in the grip of depression have more important (and true) things to worry about.

Macha

Deleted User wrote: »

Another element of the whole AGW/manmade climate change is the possibility that is was created to scare people into reducing their oil consumption by making them feel guilty for wrecking the planet, as well as making some people very rich by creating costs out of thin(carbon) air!

How is it possible for you to completely ignore all of the scientific evidence of climate change so consistently and instead come up with barmy consipiracy theories that Jim Corr would be proud off? It truly boggles the mind...

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the latest chart from the IEA, which appears to deny the fact that oil production has peaked and is now declining.

The chart doesn't do anything of the sort. The chart demonstrates that peak oil production was in 2006. Unconventional oil is extremely dirty and expensive and there is no guarantee that it will ever be exploited. What the IEA is saying is that oil production will plateau for the next 25 years. I really don't know where you get your analysis from. It's basically wishful thinking as far as I can tell.

Deleted User wrote: »

To me it appears that both the IPCC and the IEA are being dishonest and have separatly mislead the public into believing that the consequences of excessive consumption of fossil fuels were going to be an overcooked planet rather than being truthful and making public the real reason.
That real reason is the hard fact that there will soon be insufficient oil to maintain the current (American) way of life that is enjoyed by many in the west!
The real reasons for energy conversation should have been made public decades ago (well Carter did start the ball rolling but it was killed by Regan) then Al Gore and others saw a way to exploit the natural variations in the Earth's climate to make a fast buck. Nice to see that that (carbon trading) is now being dismanteled.

Carbon trading is nowhere near being dismantled. The EU ETS is coming into it's next phase and is going from strength to strength. Aviation is due to be included in 2012 and shipping is being discussed. The amount of selective analysis in your post is quite disappointing.

Mahatma coat

Carbon Trading will NOT be acepted by the maority of SANE People, EOS.

People can Bleat on about how such and such is comin in or is being discussed etc, its not going to happen, they had their chance to foist it off on the people before they realised what exactly ir was that theyh were trying to tax, its the AIR you Breathe, When you discuss it in a sane and rational manner wuthout the bluster and rhetoric employed by both sides its fairy obvious that its a SCAM

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Carbon Trading will NOT be acepted by the maority of SANE People, EOS.

People can Bleat on about how such and such is comin in or is being discussed etc, its not going to happen, they had their chance to foist it off on the people before they realised what exactly ir was that theyh were trying to tax, its the AIR you Breathe, When you discuss it in a sane and rational manner wuthout the bluster and rhetoric employed by both sides its fairy obvious that its a SCAM

Mahatma coat, carbon trading has already been accepted.

I suggest you read up on the science behind climate change before you start throwing around accusations that it's just bluster and rhetoric. Because your logic for dismissing carbon trading as a scam seems to be your own judgement that the discussion is not sane or rational - something that seems to be a very convenient opinion.

digme

Macha wrote: »

Mahatma coat, carbon trading has already been accepted.

I suggest you read up on the science behind climate change before you start throwing around accusations that it's just bluster and rhetoric. Because your logic for dismissing carbon trading as a scam seems to be your own judgement that the discussion is not sane or rational - something that seems to be a very convenient opinion.

it is a scam.

Mahatma coat

Macha wrote: »

Mahatma coat, carbon trading has already been accepted.

I suggest you read up on the science behind climate change before you start throwing around accusations that it's just bluster and rhetoric. Because your logic for dismissing carbon trading as a scam seems to be your own judgement that the discussion is not sane or rational - something that seems to be a very convenient opinion.

Accepted??? By Who??

Are you referencing the politicians who Generate a lot of their own CO2 talking about this over and over again??

Which Nations have signed up to a DEAL???

djpbarry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

People can Bleat on about how such and such is comin in or is being discussed etc, its not going to happen, they had their chance to foist it off on the people before they realised what exactly ir was that theyh were trying to tax, its the AIR you Breathe, When you discuss it in a sane and rational manner wuthout the bluster and rhetoric employed by both sides its fairy obvious that its a SCAM

Quite a bit of "bluster and rhetoric" evident in that post, I must say.

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Accepted??? By Who??

Are you referencing the politicians who Generate a lot of their own CO2 talking about this over and over again??

Which Nations have signed up to a DEAL???

The EU ETS has been accepted and implemented in all EU member states. Norway, Lichtenstein and Iceland have also joined. If you're complaining about the fact that it has been implemented despite your personal lack of acceptance, that's another matter.

There are other examples of cap and trade systems outside the EU, including NSW in Australia and Australia talking of implementing a national scheme in 2012. A cap-and-trade bill has been passed by the US senate.

Edit: What do you know?

Kenya is to launch a climate exchange platform to facilitate the trading of carbon credits and help tackle climate change.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-11733765

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-et-cool-it-20101112,0,3653763.story?track=rss

If Al Gore's "An Inconvenient Truth" left you feeling as if we've already lost the battle against global warming, "Cool It" is a tantalizing counterpoint that will make you wonder if maybe we've just been going about it the wrong way.

Bjorn Lomborg, the controversial Danish economist/political scientist at the center of filmmaker Ondi Timoner's energetic new documentary, doesn't find Gore's truth inconvenient so much as distorted, a position that has made him about as popular as a toxic spill in many circles both left and right

Another film highlighting the results of the scare tactics caused by the "Inconvenient truth!"

Macha

Full marks for effort, dolanbaker, Ill give you that. But no matter how many links to newspaper articles and film reviews you post, you still haven't achieved your aim of convincing others that anthropogenic climate change is a myth. That requires a robust scientific debate of the kind you refuse to engage in.

Mahatma coat

Kenya?? Really,thats great Cos they're one of the most prolific Polluters on the Planet, Oh wait.

Was listenin to the Radio on my way in thismornin, Julia Gillard is off to Talk to Obama Shortly, She admitted that they wont be discussing any form of ETS Because the Americans wont vote for it. That would leave it dead in the water then.

OH BTW, there is Curently no Carbon trading Scheme in place in NSW, despite what the flowery but vague article you may find on the internet SEEM to sugest. it is Being Discused but Nothing of substance has ben implemented

OK, first anniversary of the climategate leaks and here is a video from one of the sceptics who have been following the situation closely ever since.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-uzNBtdYOo

My own opinion is that they have another axe to grind with "the establishment", but putting that aside the remainder of the video is worth watching.

The current reduction is solar activity appears to be having more of an affect than anything else.

Mahatma coat

Ah So its called ''Global Climate Disruption'' Now

Call it what ya like its still based on Spurious assumptions and rather vauge 'Predictions'

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Ah So its called ''Global Climate Disruption'' Now

Call it what ya like its still based on Spurious assumptions and rather vauge 'Predictions'

And yet you still haven't managed to prove that..!

Mahatma coat

Proof is a Mathematical Construct

Although I see Nothing from the Climate 'Scientists' that Cements their position either.

They have released Biased studies, and Skewed Reports, anyone who disagrees is labeled a Kook and must be in the pocket of big Oil.

So show me your 'Proof'

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Proof is a Mathematical Construct

Provide sufficient evidence to support the theory then.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Although I see Nothing from the Climate 'Scientists' that Cements their position either.

They have released Biased studies, and Skewed Reports, anyone who disagrees is labeled a Kook and must be in the pocket of big Oil.

So show me your 'Proof'

I'm sorry but this is based on wishful thinking. If you want evidence of anthropogenic climate change you just need to read back over threads on the subject in this forum. Don't expect me to lay it all out in front of you again here.

The mechanism by which carbon dioxide "catches" the infrared radiation on its way out and throws it back to earth was first discovered by an Irish scientist. Tyndall wrote that without carbon dioxide, "The warmth of our fields and gardens would pour itself unrequited into space, and the sun would rise upon an island held fast in the iron grip of frost".

In other words, we've known about the mechanism that climatologists argue is causing climate change since the 1860s.

Mahatma coat

the Point of this thread is ClimateGate, ie, that they lied about the whole thing.

Many of the links in this thread display that Fact in detail.



Question for you,

Are we going to Run out of Oxygen.

Observable scientific Data suggests that this might be a possibility :eek:

Macha

Mahatma coat wrote: »

the Point of this thread is ClimateGate, ie, that they lied about the whole thing.

Many of the links in this thread display that Fact in detail.

That is so far from reality, I don't think your position is amenable for debate.

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Question for you,

Are we going to Run out of Oxygen.

Observable scientific Data suggests that this might be a possibility :eek:

Please try and keep on topic.

Mahatma coat

Ah but that is on Topic

Scientific Research shows that Prior to Mans arrival on Earth there was a much Richer level of Oxygen in the Atmosphere, this allowed Dragonflys to grow to massive Sizes, but then along come the Humans to Breathe it all up.

Its as Solid a theory and Based on as Much Fact as AGW

djpbarry

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Scientific Research shows that Prior to Mans arrival on Earth there was a much Richer level of Oxygen in the Atmosphere, this allowed Dragonflys to grow to massive Sizes, but then along come the Humans to Breathe it all up.

Its as Solid a theory and Based on as Much Fact as AGW

Not exactly, but what's your point?

Mahatma coat

My Point is that its all spurious science, but you know that, you just cant come up with a counterargument thats not Based on spurious science, hence the Short responses which read in my mind as

"I know you are but what am I , NaNa Na NaNa"



AAAANYWAY
I Thought I'd throw this in here, a Friend emailed it to me over the weekend

This makes interesting reading. Professor Ian Plimer could not have said it better! If you've read his book you will agree that this is a good summary.

Australians showed sense in resisting the government pressure to agree to a carbon tax the before the Copenhagen Conference - which seems years ago now

Are you sitting down?

Okay, here's the bombshell. The volcanic eruption in Iceland, since its first spewing of volcanic ash has, in just FOUR DAYS, NEGATED EVERY SINGLE EFFORT you have made in the past five years to control CO2 emissions on our planet - all of you.
Of course you know about this evil carbon dioxide that we are trying to suppress - it’s that vital chemical compound that every plant requires to live and grow and to synthesize into oxygen for us humans and all animal life.

I know, I know.... (group hug)...it's very disheartening to realise that all of the carbon emission savings you have accomplished while suffering the inconvenience and expense of: driving Prius hybrids, buying fabric grocery bags, sitting up till midnight to finish your kid's "The Green Revolution" science project, throwing out all of your non-green cleaning supplies, using only two squares of toilet paper, putting a brick in your toilet tank reservoir, selling your SUV and speedboat, vacationing at home instead of Bali, nearly getting hit every day on your bicycle, replacing all of your $1 light bulbs with $10 light bulbs ...well, all of those things you have done have all gone down the tubes in just four days.

The volcanic ash emitted into the Earth's atmosphere in just four days - yes - FOUR DAYS ONLY by that volcano in Iceland, has totally erased every single effort you have made to reduce the evil beast, carbon. And there are around 200 active volcanoes on the planet spewing out this crud any one time - EVERY DAY.

Oh, I don't really want to rain on your parade too much, but I should mention that when the volcano Mt Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines in 1991, it spewed out more greenhouse gases into the atmosphere than the entire human race had emitted in its entire YEARS on earth. Yes folks, Mt Pinatubo was active for over one year - think about it.

Of course I shouldn't spoil this touchy-feely tree-hugging moment and mention the effect of solar and cosmic activity and the well-recognised 800-year global heating and cooling cycle, which keep happening, despite our completely insignificant efforts to affect climate change.

I'm so sorry. And I do wish I had a silver lining to this volcanic ash cloud but the fact of the matter is that the bush fire season across the western USA and Australia this year alone will negate your efforts to reduce carbon in our world for the next two to three years. And it happens every year.

Just remember that your government just tried to impose a whopping carbon tax on you on the basis of the bogus “human-caused” climate change scenario.

Hey, isn’t it interesting how they don’t mention “Global Warming” any more, but just “Climate Change” - you know why? It’s because the planet has COOLED by 0.7 degrees in the past century and these global warming bull artists got caught with their pants down.

And just keep in mind that you might yet have an Emissions Trading Scheme - that whopping new tax - imposed on you, that will achieve absolutely nothing except make you poorer. It won’t stop any volcanoes from erupting, that’s for sure.

But hey, relax, give the world a hug and have a nice day!

PS: I wonder if Iceland is buying carbon offsets?
.