My outrage at some members of the Private Sector..

Liam79

Who believe everything they read and hear in the biased media.....
ye havent a clue

OMD

Liam79 wrote: »

Who believe everything they read and hear in the biased media.....
ye havent a clue

Enlighten us Liam. I see your wife is lower paid civil servant but to keep it simple people (on both sides) have been talking about average public servants.

Liam79

OMD wrote: »

Enlighten us Liam. I see your wife is lower paid civil servant but to keep it simple people (on both sides) have been talking about average public servants.

What people dont realise is the HSE brings up the average for the rest of them! The HSE is ridiculously over staffed with admin staff, there are 800 Grade 8's!! 800!! My wife is a Local Authority worker and i guarantee you the average wage in the LA's is nothing like what it is in the HSE. But John Doe reads Kevin Myers, Listens to George Hook and thinks they are all the same when they patently are not!

To be honest this thread is just an angry reaction to the ridiculous thread about Public Sector workers on this same page

cavedave

Liam79

ye havent a clue

Well at least the teachers of English are doing a good job.

jimmmy

Liam79 wrote: »

What people dont realise is the HSE brings up the average for the rest of them!

You are correct in that health workers are better paid - on average - than other public servants, but I quote direct from the governments own C.S.O. website :

Average weekly earnings in the Public Sector (excluding Health) are €973.09


I appreciate not everyone in the public service is on the average pay there. That is why is the average pay.

OMD

Liam79 wrote: »

What people dont realise is the HSE brings up the average for the rest of them! The HSE is ridiculously over staffed with admin staff, there are 800 Grade 8's!! 800!! My wife is a Local Authority worker and i guarantee you the average wage in the LA's is nothing like what it is in the HSE. But John Doe reads Kevin Myers, Listens to George Hook and thinks they are all the same when they patently are not!

To be honest this thread is just an angry reaction to the ridiculous thread about Public Sector workers on this same page

I understand the anger but I am afraid it is not just the HSE. Figures from the CSO show that average public service pay excluding HSE was €948.91 (or €49343.32 a year)

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Count Dooku

Liam79 wrote: »

Who believe everything they read and hear in the biased media.....

Do you think that we must believe to union lies rather then facts from media and public service themselves?

Liam79

Ger receives the bones of about 790 euros a fortnight after tax. a fortnight, not a week, a fortnight. and so do many many many others in her LA

Blazer

Honestly Liam...we don't give a flying fúck what the public sector think..
Quite frankly if my boss told me "i'm cutting your wages by 10% but giving you a job for life and a guaranteed pension" I'd bite his fúckin hands off.
If you think you're underpaid sod off to the private sector and see how much more you can get there...:mad:
oh wait...your job isn't guaranteed and your pension fund has lost about €15,000 of your pension this year...sorry about that..but what the hell....you're earning more than the public sector...lol..what a fúcking laugh...

seamus

Forgive me Liam, but I've no idea what a grade 8 and how it relates to payscales.

In any case, it's irrelevant. Take any company in the world and ask them for their "average" salary, you'll find that this average salary is being increased dramatically by a small number of individuals who get a large amount of money.

This is the case in both the public sector and private sector. So in reality, the private sector could equally say that the 30-odd grand figure pushed about as the "average" wage is being brought up for the rest of us by a few thousand highly-paid directors and CEOs.

Your point still doesn't make any difference to the fact that the average public sector wage is higher than the average private sector. Individual cases are irrelevant, however the government should be careful to avoid making indiscriminate swinging cuts and focus on trimming the fat where it's gotten too bulky.

jimmmy

Liam79 wrote: »

Ger receives the bones of about 790 euros a fortnight after tax. a fortnight, not a week, a fortnight. and so do many many many others in her LA

Do you think people of her age, qualifications and experience in the private sector, or her age, qualifications and experience in the public sector in other countries, earn more ?

A guaranteed 790 a fortinight ( plus pension provided for ) after tax is not bad ....I know many hard working, well educated people in the private sector who would be damn glad to get that every fortinight. Lucky her.

shoegirl

Liam79 wrote: »

What people dont realise is the HSE brings up the average for the rest of them! The HSE is ridiculously over staffed with admin staff, there are 800 Grade 8's!! 800!! My wife is a Local Authority worker and i guarantee you the average wage in the LA's is nothing like what it is in the HSE. But John Doe reads Kevin Myers, Listens to George Hook and thinks they are all the same when they patently are not!

You've hit the nail on the head there. A big part of the problem though, is permitting TNCs to obliquely block worker organizations like trade unions has created a communications gap that is easy to manipulate via the media, and lead to an impression that trade unions/public sector workers are the entire cause of the problem.

You are absolutely right on the admins in the HSE, but there are also lots of overworked grade 3s doing the real admin work, on a max wage of about 32k a year, without whom the system simply would break down (these are the folks who do the record keeping, send/answer letters, make appointments etc). Part of the reason of course why there are so many grade 8s is because of the plethora of small units that require local management - I understand a significant part of rolling together smaller units into bigger ones is to eliminate a lot of this expensive local management. Of course why not simply get rid of the local management instead and manage it remotely from the bigger units?

Secondly there are a lot of skilled and qualified roles in the sector that have severe barriers to entry - qualifications that take 4-5 years to achieve like engineers, architects, legal profession etc. You cannot compare that to a similar role in the private sector where technically, nobody in their right mind should pay 900 a week to somebody with no skills or qualifications (although in reality, significant numbers of low skilled idiots are still there on vastly inflated wages also).

Deadalus

Just want to say that the average can be misleading also. I mean there could be 5 public servants working in one area of an organisation. 4 of them make 500 a week and the other makes something like 1800 resulting in an average of around 900 a week for that department. There are huge gaps in pay depending on what position you hold.

meditraitor

Deadalus wrote: »

Just want to say that the average can be misleading also. I mean there could be 5 public servants working in one area of an organisation. 4 of them make 500 a week and the other makes something like 1800 resulting in an average of around 900 a week for that department. There are huge gaps in pay depending on what position you hold.

760 actualy, but I get your point. Get rid of the guy on 1800 a week, the lucky backstart

OMD

Deadalus wrote: »

Just want to say that the average can be misleading also. I mean there could be 5 public servants working in one area of an organisation. 4 of them make 500 a week and the other makes something like 1800 resulting in an average of around 900 a week for that department. There are huge gaps in pay depending on what position you hold.

That is true. However the organisation 24/7 Alliance which is fighting public service pay cuts says that 66% of public service workers are earning over 40,000 a year. (I think you can safely assume that is is well higher than this figure)

ParkRunner

meditraitor wrote: »

760 actualy, but I get your point. Get rid of the guy on 1800 a week, the lucky backstart

This seems to be happening behind the scenes as we speak. Certainly from my experience the numbers retiring over the last 6 months has been phenomenal and there are more to come. Most of these are at the higher grades too. It wont achieve €1.3bn but every little helps!

Tipp Man

Liam79 wrote: »

Ger receives the bones of about 790 euros a fortnight after tax. a fortnight, not a week, a fortnight. and so do many many many others in her LA

Sorry Liam I don't know you from Adam, what is your wife doing for the 790 a fortnight?? She could still be overpaid at that level, its not just a case of the monetary number but also the amount of work involved, level of responsibility etc etc

Liam79

Tipp Man wrote: »

Sorry Liam I don't know you from Adam, what is your wife doing for the 790 a fortnight?? She could still be overpaid at that level, its not just a case of the monetary number but also the amount of work involved, level of responsibility etc etc

Its a valid question Tippman. no problem
she is a full time Library Assistant in Limerick.

dodgyme

Liam79 wrote: »

The HSE is ridiculously over staffed with admin staff, there are 800 Grade 8's!! 800!!

What would your be arguing if your wife was a HSE admin worker. Would you be saying 'oh that is ok we are over staffed and my wife paid too much'.

Pull the other one. My neighbours wife is a HSE admin worker and she is moaning while half the estate is out of work.

This thread is just another case of public sector deflection.

Blazer

dodgyme wrote: »

What would your be arguing if your wife was a HSE admin worker. Would you be saying 'oh that is ok we are over staffed and my wife paid too much'.

Pull the other one. My neighbours wife is a HSE admin worker and she is moaning while half the estate is out of work.

This thread is just another case of public sector deflection.

He'd prob be bitching about library staff being paid €790 to hand out a few books now and then..:rolleyes:

jimmmy

Berkut wrote: »

He'd prob be bitching about library staff being paid €790 to hand out a few books now and then..:rolleyes:

Take home pay of 12.34 per hour, after tax, in a nice warm, cosy environment. The last time I was in a library the librarians spent 99% of the time chatting to each other about their holidays, social lives etc....nice work if you can get it, esp. as its guaranteed, with a pension. No stress, danger, pressure, lack of security etc. I am sure if such a position was advertised plenty of people would apply.

Liam79

jimmmy wrote: »

Take home pay of 12.34 per hour, after tax, in a nice warm, cosy environment. The last time I was in a library the librarians spent 99% of the time chatting to each other about their holidays, social lives etc....nice work if you can get it, esp. as its guaranteed, with a pension. No stress, danger, pressure, lack of security etc. I am sure if such a position was advertised plenty of people would apply.

Jimmy/Berkut...
those types of attitudes are typical of what I would expect! It just shows up your own ignorance and lack of understanding of the real world.
All Librarians do is chat and hand out books, thats it, nothing else
To be honest, those types of attitudes are disgraceful, very offensive and actually seriously dilute any serious argument you may in future try to make.

GoldenTickets

Liam79 wrote: »

Who believe everything they read and hear in the biased media.....
ye havent a clue

+1,000,000

jimmmy

Liam79 wrote: »

All Librarians do is chat and hand out books, thats it, nothing else

Nobody said that. I am sure the junior librarians involved also restack books. And the odd time order books. Very important job.

Now, why exactly do you express " outrage at some members of the Private Sector ", when its the private sector who are paying the bulk of the money to the govt, as opposed to taking money from it ?

Blazer

Liam79 wrote: »

Jimmy/Berkut...
those types of attitudes are typical of what I would expect! It just shows up your own ignorance and lack of understanding of the real world.
All Librarians do is chat and hand out books, thats it, nothing else
To be honest, those types of attitudes are disgraceful, very offensive and actually seriously dilute any serious argument you may in future try to make.

lol..god the delusion of the public sector...:D

S.L.F

jimmmy wrote: »

The last time I was in a library the librarians spent 99% of the time chatting to each other about their holidays, social lives etc.....

Maybe you caught them on a break?

westtip

cavedave wrote: »

Well at least the teachers of English are doing a good job.

And getting overpaid for it.

Liam79

you know something, I feel sorry for you with attitudes like that. The arrogance and downright sheer ignorance of the real situation in the public sector says a lot more about your own intellect and grasp of reality than I ever could. But hey, if Kevin Myers says its so....it must be......

Have a cup of tea lads. Do ye the world of good.

danman

Sorry, we don't have time to drink tea. work to be done in the real world.

soden12

jimmmy wrote: »

Take home pay of 12.34 per hour, after tax, in a nice warm, cosy environment. The last time I was in a library the librarians spent 99% of the time chatting to each other about their holidays, social lives etc....nice work if you can get it, esp. as its guaranteed, with a pension. No stress, danger, pressure, lack of security etc. I am sure if such a position was advertised plenty of people would apply.

Could be worse - could be a nice comfy job in a bank - opening from 10-4 , loads of holidays, cheap loans subsidised by customers , swan out to lunch during their busy period, overcharge accounts and get away with it..

MaceFace

Liam79 wrote: »

you know something, I feel sorry for you with attitudes like that. The arrogance and downright sheer ignorance of the real situation in the public sector says a lot more about your own intellect and grasp of reality than I ever could. But hey, if Kevin Myers says its so....it must be......

Have a cup of tea lads. Do ye the world of good.

Liam, that is on the low side and it is a crime that people in this country need to earn signicantly more than this to have what would be considered a modest living.
Not trying to be bad here, but if a typical library assistant went into the private sector, what job would they be doing, and what would be the typical pay there?

Just because someone is on a low wage does not mean they are underpaid.

Liam79

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

warrenaldo

MaceFace wrote: »

Not trying to be bad here, but if a typical library assistant went into the private sector, what job would they be doing, and what would be the typical pay there?

You could ask similar questions about Garda and Firemen, what job would they do? what would the typical pay be?

Just because they would not get a similar role in the private sector does not mean they should automatically take the salary of what they would earn in the private sector.

Although I fully agree that many public sector employees are overpaid and should/will take a paycut, i find it difficult to understand why people expect them to bend over and take it. You wouldnt!

hobochris

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

In fairness in the real world some degrees are valued more then others.

a business or science/engineering degree would be valued more then a art or philosophy degree.

Zulu

You keep banging on about a degree, like it entitles one to something. It doesn't.

All a degree does is prove you’ve bothered to study a subject more; all a degree does is make you more employable. Having a degree does not entitle you to a higher wage. You may get a higher starting salary, but you are not entitled to one.

…at least that’s the way the big bad world works. Now I may be wrong, perhaps the public sector is different?

Riskymove

Zulu wrote: »

…at least that’s the way the big bad world works. Now I may be wrong, perhaps the public sector is different?

you are overlooking the fact that some jobs require a certain qualification and therefore the wage usually reflects that (barriers to entry and competition etc)

In order to be a Librarian you require certain qualifications

murphaph

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

Pretty much yeah. There are hard degrees and easy degrees. Everyone knows that Liam.

If being a library assistant is easy enough then the pay should be low. Is a degree really needed for it or just specified as a prerequisite? Could I learn the job in say, 6 months with on the job training? If so then the degree is irrelevant to the post.

Zulu

Riskymove wrote: »

you are overlooking the fact...

Not at all. I'm just pointing out that a degree doesn't entitle you to more money or a job for that matter.

MaceFace

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

Hey, I am only asking - no need to bite my head off. I only asked what qualifications someone needs to do that job and what else they could do with that qualification.

Are you saying that the only jobs someone with a library degree can get is in the public sector working in a library?
Unfortunately, this is what I talked about in other threads - pay and conditions whether in public or private sector should be based on one rule - supply and demand.
It does seem like library assistants are in a poor position as they have no realistic alternatives.

seamus

Liam79 wrote: »

if someone in a library with a library DEGREE went into the private sector...? In the same way say a qualified engineer went into the library is it? Cos he would as good to them as a fence post!

Or is what your saying that a library degree which took 5 years start to finish in Maynooth...poo poo.....

get a REAL degree kinda thing is it Mace?

Liam, someone with a library degree is effectively a qualified researcher and those who are good at it can earn decent money in the private sector perform research.
Such a person may need to do additional training depending on the industry they're in (such a legal researcher), but a library degree doesn't only qualify you to work in the public sector as a librarian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_and_information_science#Employment_outlook_and_opportunities

Tipp Man

Riskymove wrote: »

you are overlooking the fact that some jobs require a certain qualification and therefore the wage usually reflects that (barriers to entry and competition etc)

In order to be a Librarian you require certain qualifications

Now this raises a really valid point, do we need all these qualifications in the PS? Why does everyone need to have degrees etc etc, there are plenty of jobs as far as i can see that on the job training would be more than sufficient. Do we really need someone to spend 5 years at Uni to work in a library in Limerick?? Seriously??

Half the degrees in this country should be abolished i reckon, by doing stupid degrees we have too many people who think they are geniuses and with salary expectations to match. and its a double whammy as we have to provide the costs for the stupid degree in the first place

parsi

Tipp Man wrote: »

Half the degrees in this country should be abolished i reckon, by doing stupid degrees we have too many people who think they are geniuses and with salary expectations to match. and its a double whammy as we have to provide the costs for the stupid degree in the first place

Not a bad point really.

The current emphasis on funnelling folk off to degree level courses means that there is a serious dose of over-qualification in the workforce.

"Oh, look at me, I've a degree gained after 4 years of doing nothing, so I must get a job at 47K."

If everyone has degrees who is going to man the shops, the bins, the takeways, the building etc ?

murphaph

parsi wrote: »

Not a bad point really.

The current emphasis on funnelling folk off to degree level courses means that there is a serious dose of over-qualification in the workforce.

"Oh, look at me, I've a degree gained after 4 years of doing nothing, so I must get a job at 47K."

If everyone has degrees who is going to man the shops, the bins, the takeways, the building etc ?

Don't worry, we'll just keep buying and selling property off one another at hugely inflated prices and get poles to do all those messy jobs, oh wait...

Zulu

em, well, personally, I'd much rather we had a highly educated work force.

I think encouraging the populous to further educate themselves to third level is one of the things we should be applauded for.

Riskymove

Tipp Man wrote: »

Now this raises a really valid point, do we need all these qualifications in the PS?

Not everyone needs a qualification

if you have a generalised view that a librarian is just a shelf-stacker then obviously that would be a questionable requirement, but the truth is far from that as set out above by

Liam, someone with a library degree is effectively a qualified researcher and those who are good at it can earn decent money in the private sector perform research

Tipp Man

murphaph wrote: »

Don't worry, we'll just keep buying and selling property off one another at hugely inflated prices and get poles to do all those messy jobs, oh wait...

Unfortunatley Murph thats the way it is, too many people with too many big ideas of themselves giving an over inflated sense of self rightousness and self importance and over inflated salaries to match

Tipp Man

Riskymove wrote: »

Not everyone needs a qualification

if you have a generalised view that a librarian is just a shelf-stacker then obviously that would be a questionable requirement, but the truth is far from that as set out above by

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

Jaysoose

Imagine the wailing when the IMF has to come in and clean up this mess next year....PS dont know how good they have it at the minute and the Beardy union gimps wont be able to save them when the reins are handed over and the cuts WILL be made regardless of what anybody thinks or says.

I say let them keep their pay cos it wont be for much longer.

Liam79

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

Your actually proving my point of general ignorance of the public towards what some people in the PS actually do.
You genuinely believe all librarians do is stack shelves, give out and take back books dont you. I mean the sheer ignorance for want of a better word is laughable.
And sure all farmers do is look after a few cows and feed the hens....and all radio dj's do is work 2 hours a day, and all bank tellers do is give out money at the counter etc etc etc.....

Open your eyes!!:eek:

The Muppet

Berkut wrote: »

Honestly Liam...we don't give a flying fúck what the public sector think..
.

You're dead right there, and it's got to the stage that the Public sector feel the same about the private sector.

Thing is you'll moan next tuesday when your cheap childminders are on strike., or later on as services deteriorate as things escalates which they will.

Don't attempt to play the public sympathy card dowm the road. The Public sector know there is very little and have decided it's time to look after themselves. After all why should they give a flying fúck what the private sector think?

To The North

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm not just talking about librarians but in this case is there anything that this women (an assistant librarian) does that i or any Tom Dick or Harry could not do after 6 months on the job training?? Do you really need 5 years at Uni for it?? What about librarians 20 years ago, did they all have degrees?

Now if this woman was a brain surgen then obviously that answers itself

to be a library assistant you don't normally need a degree, although i think different institutions may ask for you to have one.

so yes anyone can do that job with training and it's the lowest of the wage grades (in my workplace anyway). as a library assistant in the public sector i'm on the same money that i was in the private sector as a retail assistant. my previous emplyer had agreed to negotiate my wage with me every year and give me a raise, so i don't know if this is comparable with other retail assistants.

however, to move up the pay grades and get a better job or to be a librarian you need to do a masters in librarian and information work. like someone mentioned above this means you are a qualified researcher and can work far more fields than just the public service, but some choose to work here because they enjoy their jobs.

i can guarantee you that working in a library involves far more than stamping books now and again and shelving. libraries are an important resource tool for students and facilitate in educating the people who are the future of this country.