N25 Suir Bridge Documentary

Bards

Everyone say sorry to RTE,

they are to show a documentary on the New Suir Bridge

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7812&Itemid=1&ed=767

RTE’s ever popular "Nationwide" programme is to feature a special package next week on the new Suir Bridge.

On Monday night, November 23rd, the station’s South East Correspondent, Damien Tiernan, will report on the success of the bridge and the amazing history of Waterford’s previous attempts to have a second river crossing built at the city.

There will also be superb archive pictures of "Timbertoes" and other matters which will be of great interest to Waterford and south Kilkenny people.

kaizersoze

Bards wrote: »

...."Timbertoes".....

Dare I ask?:D

mike65

The 18th century bridge.

deiseman21

what a failure this has been - complete waste of money

fricatus

deiseman21 wrote: »

what a failure this has been - complete waste of money

I disagree. Timbertoes served the city very well for many years...

Seriously though, the road and the bridge are top-notch. It's just the fact that they stuck a stupid toll on it that is the problem.

I think what people have to remember also is that most of the traffic on the old N25 between Slieverue and Kilmeaden is local traffic. The amount of traffic travelling between Cork/Kerry and Rosslare is negligible (as you can see for yourself by looking at the N25 near Ardmore for instance).

The bypass is a great boon for through traffic, but it's of no use for most local journeys as the time saving is only a few minutes, and for €1.90 a pop, it's not worth it. I use it myself occasionally now, but only if I'm late or in a hurry, or if I'm hitting the city at rush hour.

It should never have been tolled, simple as that.

road_high

fricatus wrote: »

It should never have been tolled, simple as that.

I agree. Locals will not pay €1.90 each way at least twice a day just to get to work/college. It's just not feasible in todays climate at any rate. That's up to €19 per week which most people baulk at.
The raod and bridge are top class, it's just the toll that is the problem unfortunately and why people are continuing to drive through the centre of Waterford.

Zoney

I hope this isn't another scenario where the state (i.e. taxpayers) have to make up the difference if the toll company isn't milking it enough?

murphaph

fricatus wrote: »

I think what people have to remember also is that most of the traffic on the old N25 between Slieverue and Kilmeaden is local traffic. The amount of traffic travelling between Cork/Kerry and Rosslare is negligible (as you can see for yourself by looking at the N25 near Ardmore for instance).

The bypass is a great boon for through traffic, but it's of no use for most local journeys as the time saving is only a few minutes, and for €1.90 a pop, it's not worth it. I use it myself occasionally now, but only if I'm late or in a hurry, or if I'm hitting the city at rush hour.

It should never have been tolled, simple as that.

Sounds like it should never have been built if all that is true. If there's really hardly any traffic needing to bypass Waterford on the N25 then why was a Waterford N25 Bypass built?

I also hope to God this isn't another M3 job where the taxpayers compensate the concessionaires if the bridge is underused as there'll be NO incentive to drop tolls to attract traffic.

It's a shame that the bridge is not taking traffic out of Waterford city though, a real shame.

Judgement Day

murphaph wrote: »

Sounds like it should never have been built if all that is true. If there's really hardly any traffic needing to bypass Waterford on the N25 then why was a Waterford N25 Bypass built?

I also hope to God this isn't another M3 job where the taxpayers compensate the concessionaires if the bridge is underused as there'll be NO incentive to drop tolls to attract traffic.

It's a shame that the bridge is not taking traffic out of Waterford city though, a real shame.

Every little hamlet in Ireland needs a bypass much as they need an airport, hospital, grotto etc.etc........:D

fricatus

murphaph wrote: »

Sounds like it should never have been built if all that is true. If there's really hardly any traffic needing to bypass Waterford on the N25 then why was a Waterford N25 Bypass built?

I wouldn't agree with you there at all. The average daily traffic count on Rice Bridge was up around 44,000 in the past few years. Any incident that caused a lane closure on the bridge would cause massive delays. The second bridge was definitely needed.

However the toll acts as a disincentive for motorists to use the road network in the most efficient way. It's obvious that long-distance traffic will be happy to pay it, but a local delivery driver or commuter just won't, except if the traffic is exceptionally heavy.

Judgement Day wrote: »

Every little hamlet in Ireland needs a bypass much as they need an airport, hospital, grotto etc.etc........:D

My problem is with the notion of it being a "bypass". Places like Abbeyleix and Claregalway need bypasses, because they're bottlenecks for through traffic. What Waterford needed was a ring road to take traffic out of the centre, because the city itself is what generates most of the traffic, not some busy road that happens to pass through it.

In fairness we have the road now, thank God. The problem is that it's not being used, because it's tolled.

murphaph

fricatus wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you there at all. The average daily traffic count on Rice Bridge was up around 44,000 in the past few years. Any incident that caused a lane closure on the bridge would cause massive delays. The second bridge was definitely needed.

But it sounds like only a second crossing was required. You yourself said traffic on the N25 bypassing Waterford is "negligible"?? I said it sounds like the whole bypass was a waste of money if traffic using the N25 to get through Waterford was negligible. I didn't say a second river crossing for Waterford City wasn't needed.

fricatus wrote: »

However the toll acts as a disincentive for motorists to use the road network in the most efficient way. It's obvious that long-distance traffic will be happy to pay it, but a local delivery driver or commuter just won't, except if the traffic is exceptionally heavy.

Hmmm, in Dublin it's mostly commuters who pay the toll to cross the West Link (and it's more expensive for a crappier bridge) so I wonder why it would be any different in Waterford? The alternative routes to the M50 West Link are even worse than the Rice Bridge too.

fricatus wrote: »

My problem is with the notion of it being a "bypass". Places like Abbeyleix and Claregalway need bypasses, because they're bottlenecks for through traffic. What Waterford needed was a ring road to take traffic out of the centre, because the city itself is what generates most of the traffic, not some busy road that happens to pass through it.

In fairness we have the road now, thank God. The problem is that it's not being used, because it's tolled.

Something needs to be done about this though. It would have been better bypassing Calregalway (no expensive bridge required) etc. than Waterford if the Waterford bypass is not going to carry any traffic. It is quite simply a white elephant unless it is used.

I'm trying to get a handle on why the NRA opted to build this massive bypass when it sounds like a second crossing in the city itself should have been opted for and the money seemingly wasted on a bypass that is hardly used by inter-city traffic should have been spent on a Claregalway/Abbeyfeale bypass (lower cost, no big expensive structures, higher volume of traffic). Are you sure so few vehicles use the N25 to bypass Waterford Fricatus? Have the NRA got this so spectacularly wrong? Did they bank on locals using the bridge and that has gone sideways?

Dum_Dum

murphaph wrote: »

...Have the NRA got this so spectacularly wrong? Did they bank on locals using the bridge and that has gone sideways?

I think they would have found it hard to justify charging a toll on a second bridge in the city centre; especially with a toll free one adjacent to it!


There would also be the political implications of having toll free infrastructure in Waterford, even if this is what local geography would determine.



So the conclusion I reach is that they where hoping local traffic would pay the toll to use the new bridge.

Zoney

Also sounds like they'll probably still have to build a second crossing in the city centre (surely unsurprising).

What a mess.

D'Peoples Voice

Zoney wrote: »

Also sounds like they'll probably still have to build a second crossing in the city centre (surely unsurprising).

What a mess.

Or and forgive me for even thinking along these lines.........reduce the price.
Oh now, what have I said,.....I take it back Ted.....I wasn't really thinking about supply and demand equilibrium

fricatus

murphaph wrote: »

But it sounds like only a second crossing was required. You yourself said traffic on the N25 bypassing Waterford is "negligible"?? I said it sounds like the whole bypass was a waste of money if traffic using the N25 to get through Waterford was negligible.

Maybe "negligible" is the wrong word, but there's no way it's anything like the 44,000 that cross Rice Bridge. If you look at the fact that east of Dungarvan (N25-N72 junction) carries around 10,000 a day and there would be a lot of Waterford-bound commuters in that number, then you get a feeling for what the Cork-Rosslare numbers might be.

murphaph wrote: »

I didn't say a second river crossing for Waterford City wasn't needed.

Fair enough, I took you up wrong there.

murphaph wrote: »

Hmmm, in Dublin it's mostly commuters who pay the toll to cross the West Link (and it's more expensive for a crappier bridge) so I wonder why it would be any different in Waterford? The alternative routes to the M50 West Link are even worse than the Rice Bridge too.

That's true, but nobody in Dublin is going to exit at Blanch and crawl through Lucan or Chapelizod if they're going from Finglas to Tallaght, or Red Cow to the airport for example. However someone going from Blanch to Liffey valley would probably choose to go through Lucan, so if you think of the Waterford bypass in those terms, you'll have a better idea of the situation in my view.

murphaph wrote: »

Something needs to be done about this though. It would have been better bypassing Calregalway (no expensive bridge required) etc. than Waterford if the Waterford bypass is not going to carry any traffic. It is quite simply a white elephant unless it is used.

Well quite... and I personally think the bypass is in the ideal place to capture incoming N25 (New Ross) N9 (Kilkenny) and N24 (South Tipp) commuters and deliver them across to WIT and the IDA industrial park just on the other side of the bridge. There's nothing wrong with the physical setting of the bridge, just the fact that Rice Bridge is a reasonable - and free - alternative.

murphaph wrote: »

Are you sure so few vehicles use the N25 to bypass Waterford Fricatus?

There are no up-to-date traffic counts, though I'm sure some sort of analysis will be done in the coming months. What I can tell you is that I'm amazed at how little traffic appears to be on the new bridge, compared to how much appears to be still using Rice Bridge. Then again, 10,000 vehicles a day on a big wide road can look like less than 5,000 a day on a congested little route, to the untrained eye.

murphaph wrote: »

Have the NRA got this so spectacularly wrong?

Well you'd wonder...

murphaph wrote: »

Did they bank on locals using the bridge and that has gone sideways?

Maybe, and remember also that the recession has suddenly left a lot of people with more time and less money. A tradesman living in Mooncoin and doing a job in the IDA park back in 2007 would have been glad to pay €1.90 to save half an hour of his busy day, but now the same imaginary guy has probably half the work and half the money, and because a lot of people are in the same boat, the roads are less congested!

alpha2zulu

This little piece was on Waterford local radio news today, pretty sums up the way a lot of businesses are reacting to the rate of tolls.

http://www.wlrfm.com/tabId/503/itemId/3351/Haulage-companies-avoid-new-bridge.aspx

On the plus side, good to see some noise being made by local companies about the cost of the tolls. Personally speaking, I dont see why they could not experiment with cutting tolls by say 50% for a few weeks to test the change in volumes at the very least. If the car toll was 1 euro, I would use it at least twice as much. Interesting to hear anybody elses thoughts on this.

Trick of the Tail

Here's a thought - make the bridge toll-free for private vehicles.

Commercial vehicles are probably engaged in business of some sort in crossing the bridge, and that toll is a tax-deductable expense - and in any case is probably worth it to get past Waterford in 5 minutes instead of 30.

Private vehicles, however, should be encouraged to use it, even if they're 'local', to take traffic from Rice Bridge and the Quays/Parnell Street etc.

Radical? Maybe. Sensible? I think so.

A.

Dum_Dum

Some people have developed the misconception that the second bridge was built to relieve the first.

It was built with the single purpose of returning shareholder value in spades. Once you accept that, you'll realise what a success it will be for international capital and you still stop dreaming up schemes that will be socially useful.

alpha2zulu

It was built with the single purpose of returning shareholder value in spades. Once you accept that, you'll realise what a success it will be for international capital

Totally agree, however even though we have no figures, just anecdotal evidence to go on, to the untrained eye its not really being much benefit to anybody, trickle of cars over it and traffic in Waterford just as heavy on the Kilkenny approaches.

820am last Wednesday morning for instance, only 1 lane open each direction plus the easy pass lane. Even with just 1 lane there was stil no queues. Surely they would have been hoping for better at rush hour at the very least.

Trick of the Tail

Well alright, you old cynic, you! Reduce the charge for private vehicles to an amount no-one cares about, like 50c.

And erect signs on the ways into the city saying 'vehicles over 5 tonne prohibited, except for access'.

And while they're ordering signs, get some that say 'get in lane' for the approach roads to the Grannagh interchange, to prevent so many people cocking up their navigation of the roundabout.

A.

mike65

I already posted about that sort of thing only the other way round, charge em for entering the city -

On the road into Ferrybank somewhere by the Mile Post there should be a height restrictor with a lane for HGVs to pull into, they pay a toll of say 20 euro to get past. Obviously the city toll would be well signed on the N25. Vehicles that have a delivery manifest for the city centre then they get through free

DWCommuter

fricatus wrote: »

I disagree. Timbertoes served the city very well for many years...

Seriously though, the road and the bridge are top-notch. It's just the fact that they stuck a stupid toll on it that is the problem.

I think what people have to remember also is that most of the traffic on the old N25 between Slieverue and Kilmeaden is local traffic. The amount of traffic travelling between Cork/Kerry and Rosslare is negligible (as you can see for yourself by looking at the N25 near Ardmore for instance).

The bypass is a great boon for through traffic, but it's of no use for most local journeys as the time saving is only a few minutes, and for €1.90 a pop, it's not worth it. I use it myself occasionally now, but only if I'm late or in a hurry, or if I'm hitting the city at rush hour.

It should never have been tolled, simple as that.

I find this very interesting and from looking at the works over the last year and the scheme map, it doesn't really look like it has many local benefits? Thats a real shame as Waterfords notorious bottleneck still remains.

So effectively this project is literally just a bypass (and one feckin big one!) on the N25 route, which doesn't exactly carry a huge amount of traffic between Wexford and Waterford???? Or did it get the nod because Martin Cullen was minister for transport?

Maybe it has something to do with these European transit routes. Wasn't the N25 designated in this category because of the Ferryport in Rosslare?

Personally, I adore all these new roads, but they have to be prioritised and deliver immediate benefits. (Something that is lacking due to the manner of implementation) Realistically does the Waterford bypass deliver much????

Bards

DWCommuter wrote: »

I find this very interesting and from looking at the works over the last year and the scheme map, it doesn't really look like it has many local benefits? Thats a real shame as Waterfords notorious bottleneck still remains.

So effectively this project is literally just a bypass (and one feckin big one!) on the N25 route, which doesn't exactly carry a huge amount of traffic between Wexford and Waterford???? Or did it get the nod because Martin Cullen was minister for transport?

Maybe it has something to do with these European transit routes. Wasn't the N25 designated in this category because of the Ferryport in Rosslare?

Personally, I adore all these new roads, but they have to be prioritised and deliver immediate benefits. (Something that is lacking due to the manner of implementation) Realistically does the Waterford bypass deliver much????

does the fermoy bypass deliver much? does any toll road deliver much?

the WCB was one of 3 Pilot PPP projects and was due to be completed in 2005. It was never going to be built with Exchequer finances, but with "private money"

the "Private Company" took the risk to reay their investment over "30 Years" it is way too early to say if it has been a success or not.

Many people are refusing to pay thre toll and so the figures are scewed

DWCommuter

Bards wrote: »

does the fermoy bypass deliver much? does any toll road deliver much?

the WCB was one of 3 Pilot PPP projects and was due to be completed in 2005. It was never going to be built with Exchequer finances, but with "private money"

the "Private Company" took the risk to reay their investment over "30 Years" it is way too early to say if it has been a success or not.

Many people are refusing to pay thre toll and so the figures are scewed

In fairness the Fermoy bypass is part of the main inter urban route between Irelands two biggest cities (discounting the "international" route to Belfast) Like wise the other inter urbans.

Bards

Exactly, the WCB is a "Bypass" of Waterford for trafic on the Euro Route between Cork & Rosslare. As I said Before it was a pilot PPP announced in 1999 by Minister Dempsey the then Environment Minister (Before a dedicated Transport Ministry was established) and before Martin Cullen got a senior ministry too (He was a junior minister at the time)

It will come into it's own when the M9 is open and during the busy summer months when traffic like other routes peak.

over the next 26 years the exchequer & local authorities will gain through VAT and Rate revenue .

It was delayed by 4 years (it was scheduled to open in 2005) due to objectors and the Woodstown Viking Site, to now say it got prioritised iover other road schemes is fantasy stuff indeed

Zoney

I wonder will the N7 Tunnel similarly result in little change in Limerick - and what tolls are planned there? Even though commuters will be likely to want to cut journey times, many may still choose time over money. There will be the additional screw-up mind you of the M20 (north) terminating on the N7 Southern Ring Road.

DWCommuter

Bards wrote: »

Exactly, the WCB is a "Bypass" of Waterford for trafic on the Euro Route between Cork & Rosslare. As I said Before it was a pilot PPP announced in 1999 by Minister Dempsey the then Environment Minister (Before a dedicated Transport Ministry was established) and before Martin Cullen got a senior ministry too (He was a junior minister at the time)

It will come into it's own when the M9 is open and during the busy summer months when traffic like other routes peak.

over the next 26 years the exchequer & local authorities will gain through VAT and Rate revenue .

It was delayed by 4 years (it was scheduled to open in 2005) due to objectors and the Woodstown Viking Site, to now say it got prioritised iover other road schemes is fantasy stuff indeed

Yes I thought there was some kind of European connection with it alright.

But I disagree that its fantasy stuff that it got prioritised over other road schemes. Without singling out the Waterford bypass, the road building programme in general has many examples of rediculous prioritisation. I think its fair to accept that.- despite what you cite in relation to the WCB.

Bards

DWCommuter wrote: »

Yes I thought there was some kind of European connection with it alright.

But I disagree that its fantasy stuff that it got prioritised over other road schemes. Without singling out the Waterford bypass, the road building programme in general has many examples of rediculous prioritisation. I think its fair to accept that.- despite what you cite in relation to the WCB.

In Fact the Gorey Bypass got shoved up the list due to the ongoing delays with the WCB, it was meant to start after the WCB but was started before the WCB even begun and finished in July 2007 a full two years before the WCB was finished

placard

The WCB toll will pay more then it's worth by the time the private toll contract is up. The toll of 1.90 for cars is also one of the least expensive in the country so I wouldn't complain too much about it. It offers a second option to a lot of local traffic and when the economy improves(nothing lasts forever) more people will use it. The countries population is growing.. expected to be over 6 million by 2035 and that's not including immigration, yes that's right immigration. Irish roads will be a lot busier in the future. I also agree that it will be busier in the summer months.

Chris_533976

Zoney wrote: »

I wonder will the N7 Tunnel similarly result in little change in Limerick - and what tolls are planned there? Even though commuters will be likely to want to cut journey times, many may still choose time over money. There will be the additional screw-up mind you of the M20 (north) terminating on the N7 Southern Ring Road.

Limerick tunnel will be better due to Galway - Cork traffic. ANYONE doing that route will take the bypass.

placard

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Limerick tunnel will be better due to Galway - Cork traffic. ANYONE doing that route will take the bypass.

I agree.. The tunnel will have more traffic as it will take all the traffic from Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry, Cork, Waterford and some. I think the idea is to have at least dual carriagway from wexford to Donegal/Derry bypassing Waterford,Cork,Limerick,Galway and smaller towns on route.

mysterious

With a toll on it, I don't see it doing much help to relieve traffic at the Rice bridge.


What was really needed was the N24/ N9 traffic getting accross the city without having to go through its city centre streets. I do think The N25 bypass was needed, but this layout doesn't really sort the traffic situation. All it does it gives commuters who use the N25 a Faster route over the river. The Rice bridge will still have it's problems and the N9/N24 layout hasn't really improved at all. There is no circulation at all.

I'd say only about 8,000 a day max use the Suir bridge. Though with a toll, it could even be less.


What most people don't realise(or maybe they do.) The majority of N25 traffic is locally generated or commuters going to and from Waterford. The through traffic going from Cork to to Rosslare would be pinceful.

mysterious

placard wrote: »

I agree.. The tunnel will have more traffic as it will take all the traffic from Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry, Cork, Waterford and some. I think the idea is to have at least dual carriagway from wexford to Donegal/Derry bypassing Waterford,Cork,Limerick,Galway and smaller towns on route.

They are asking for a toll of 3 euro or more, lol.. They can fup off. Actually the Limerick tunnel has the same problem as Waterford. It doesn't have efficient traffic circulation for all routes to attract traffic from all routes.

The Majority of cross city traffic

Galway Cork(N17,N18,N20)

N21 connecting to N18-N20 and N7

N18 connecting to N24 and M7 as destination (the tunnel would not attract this movement imo)

It would be far faster going NCR straight through town than swinging south the city and then paying a full whack toll. It seems derelicous.

D'Peoples Voice

mysterious wrote: »

They are asking for a toll of 3 euro or more, lol.. They can fup off. Actually the Limerick tunnel has the same problem as Waterford. It doesn't have efficient traffic circulation for all routes to attract traffic from all routes.

The Majority of cross city traffic

Galway Cork(N17,N18,N20)

N21 connecting to N18-N20 and N7

N18 connecting to N24 and M7 as destination (the tunnel would not attract this movement imo)

It would be far faster going NCR straight through town than swinging south the city and then paying a full whack toll. It seems derelicous.

mysterious, did you ever see the temporary bypass Mitchelstown for the past 2-3 years, surely that shape of road is similar to that going N18 to N20 to N7.
As regards paying for it, when you have a journey of 3-4 hours to make, trust me, you would have no problem paying the price of a bottle of coke for a toll if it saves you having to negotiate the traffic in Irelands 3rd biggest city.

Tech3

mysterious wrote: »

They are asking for a toll of 3 euro or more, lol.. They can fup off. Actually the Limerick tunnel has the same problem as Waterford. It doesn't have efficient traffic circulation for all routes to attract traffic from all routes.

The toll is only going to cost €1.90 for cars. It is badly needed, no doubt whatsoever about that.

The is an average of 20-25k AADT M7,M20 and the N18.

Guramoogah

Bards wrote: »

Everyone say sorry to RTE,

they are to show a documentary on the New Suir Bridge

http://www.waterford-today.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7812&Itemid=1&ed=767

RTE’s ever popular "Nationwide" programme is to feature a special package next week on the new Suir Bridge.

On Monday night, November 23rd, the station’s South East Correspondent, Damien Tiernan, will report on the success of the bridge and the amazing history of Waterford’s previous attempts to have a second river crossing built at the city.

There will also be superb archive pictures of "Timbertoes" and other matters which will be of great interest to Waterford and south Kilkenny people.

7:00 PM this evening. I'm sure it'll be available on the RTÉ Player for up to three weeks.

mike65

I'm watching it now, Ryan is such a lame screen presence and the programme cheaper than chips. Terrible script editing, country and western music (wtf). Only about 5 mins is about the bridge and the earlier crossings.

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1060791

Amtmann

Haven't seen it yet, but based on Mike's description, I'd rather not watch it at all. The reality is that we have nothing to apologise to RTÉ for, because they have utterly failed to document the revolutionary transport transformation effected by the construction of the interurban motorways and other life-saving road realignments. Shame on them.

Bards

Furet wrote: »

Haven't seen it yet, but based on Mike's description, I'd rather not watch it at all. The reality is that we have nothing to apologise to RTÉ for, because they have utterly failed to document the revolutionary transport transformation effected by the construction of the interurban motorways and other life-saving road realignments. Shame on them.

Yes I thought it was going to be an awful lot better, but it was a P**s poor attempt, I take it back

alpha2zulu

Did anybody else notice in Ryans 30second intro, there were no cars heading east on the bridge at all. I thought at first it must have been filmed before it opened then a truck and a car passed westbound...

Dum_Dum

He said it was a product of the Celtic tiger, which we all know is code for 'waste'.

Trick of the Tail

Agreed, a very poor show, Mike above is spot on with his criticisms.


And Michael Ryan is obviously losing it - faltering and looking down at his script continually.

I think they must have got the latest work-experience trainees to edit and direct it.

Bad.

A.

road_high

Dum_Dum wrote: »

He said it was a product of the Celtic tiger, which we all know is code for 'waste'.

Yea, that was kind of a stupid comment I thought. Undermining the existence and need for the whole thing. That's how it came across.

It's not completely finished of course; the M9 opening soon (we hope) will compliment the bypass and bridge very nicely indeed.