70% of companies have not had pay cuts

InReality

Seen this statistic in the papers recently.

Puts the private sector wailing in a new light ..

Dannyboy83

Yup. Its true.

That 70% just fired everybody and went bankrupt. No paycuts tho.

jimmmy

And what about the silent hundreds of thousands not with the luxury of guaranteed paychecks, or the option of going on the dole ? The self employed , not just the builder , architect + sparky but the shopkeeper, the salesman, the farmer, the repair man, the maker of luxury goods, the service provider....most of whose incomes are well down if not decimated, and pensions almost worthless, but yet they have no union which will whinge for them...

maxximus

without a doubt that is true and maybe even more than 70% but the hardcore anti ps crowd only believe what the want to , surely you are aware of that by now.

Tipp Man

Look if a company doesn't need to make a paycut, so what, whats your point??

Jumpy

The private sector is not paid for by the taxpayer. Regardless of the statistics (of which 68.83% of the people reading this forum do not believe) its not even close to the same thing.

maxximus

Also , the amount of social welfare fraud in the private sector is now widespread and deserves a mention. Especially , former construction workers , the amount doing nixers and cash in hand while receiving sw payments needs to be looked into.

jimmmy

Some companies eg Ryanair are efficient because they are largely non-unionised and they keep shareholders and customers happy, and they have a growing and profitable business ; other competitors like the unionised Aer Lingues are losing millions of euro and hence its their problem if they need pay cuts....thats their choice, if they want to survive.

fifth

maxximus wrote: »

Also , the amount of social welfare fraud in the private sector is now widespread and deserves a mention. Especially , former construction workers , the amount doing nixers and cash in hand while receiving sw payments needs to be looked into.

What is your aim here and same Q to OP.

A lot of private sector business made staff redundant , where I work we had redundancies and pay cuts.

Private sector (through tax revenue) contribute to paying Public sector wages, a lot of people in the private sector now feel that public sector wages need to be cut.

Governments wage bill is not the same as the private sectors wage bill - this is tax money that's being spent.

jimmmy

maxximus wrote: »

Also , the amount of social welfare fraud in the private sector is now widespread and deserves a mention. Especially , former construction workers , the amount doing nixers and cash in hand while receiving sw payments needs to be looked into.

Report them if you see them. Very little construction work is going on. The only nixers I see are teachers and lecturers giving grinds etc for cash, and lecturers doing summer tourism nixers. Some lecturers in the areas of quantity surveying, engineering, architecture etc did a lot of nixers during the boom but that has probably dried up now.

MikeC101

The private sector isn't just made up of one employer. If a company is profitable, and plenty are even in recession - often due to their employees being willing to go the extra mile and work long hours without the corresponding pay increases rather than having their union demand extra money for everything, why would it cut pay?

If you want all private sector pay cut, you must realise that will just lead to a smaller tax take, less money in the economy, with no benefits to the exchequer. Just less taxes to pay public sector wages, leading to more borrowing (for a lot of companies the benefit would be an increased profit margin for the American / UK parent company).

Is it that hard to understand the private sector isn't one big company, so the notion of "we'll take a pay cut if all of the private sector takes one" is utterly ridiculous. Plus you're failing to understand that redundancies are really a hell of a pay cut.

maxximus

as i stated above , the private sector only believe what they want to , if you dont think social welfare fraud is widespread , open your eyes lads.

PeteEd

maxximus wrote: »

Also , the amount of social welfare fraud in the private sector is now widespread and deserves a mention. Especially , former construction workers , the amount doing nixers and cash in hand while receiving sw payments needs to be looked into.

Never signed on in my life till now! But haven't had a sniff of a job, or even a nixer for that matter, for a year now, and through no fault of my own! ( no defaulted home loans/toxic debt)
Construction workers are no worse at this than any other sector, just looks worse cause close to a quarter of those signing on come from the construction sector.
So gives us builders a break Max,
And anyone GIVE US A JOB

meditraitor

maxximus wrote: »

as i stated above , the private sector only believe what they want to .

We believe in figures my good friend

I will quote a little post by Count doku
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055741797&page=4

Total taxable income in 2008 was 81.517 Bn
Total number of taxpayers was 2,261,136
If we will remove 20 Bn of public services payroll bill and 350,000 PS workers, we will have about 61 Bn for 1,911,136. This figure includes part time workers, self-employed and billionaires. If you will divide 61 Bn by 1,911,136, you will get 31,918 per year.
It is average for whole private sector
If you will exclude people with income more then 275K, then you will get 28K as average private sector workers

If you will divide 20Bn by 350,000 – you will get 57K as absolute average for public sector.

32K vs 57K
Where is fairness?

This is were the problem arises, clearly the public sector has become an upper class and the private sector(who also pay the PS wages) have become the underclass!
We are a bit pissed of

maxximus

a lot of construction workers are signing and working , it is fact guys , simple as that.

The majority I know have worked days and weeks here and there without signing off the register , it is turning into a copy of what happened in the 80s in this country.

Can any construction worker tell me if they had a nixer tomorrow , eg 1k work , they would sign off , cause it wouldnt happen , you know it and i know it.

Riskymove

InReality wrote: »

Seen this statistic in the papers recently.

Puts the private sector wailing in a new light ..

gross generalisations, bashing and so on...on BOTH public and private sector

gets us NOWHERE!


niether do bitterness, malice or vengence

maxximus

CSO figures shatter myth of huge pay gaps.

It shows that for permanent full-time employees between 25 and 49, the so called public sector premium is 12.6%. As this analysis dates from 2007, the differential would now be far less as public sector workers have since been hit with a pay cut in the form of the so called pension levy of an average of 7.5% of salary.

InReality

Tipp Man wrote: »

Look if a company doesn't need to make a paycut, so what, whats your point??

Jumpy wrote: »

The private sector is not paid for by the taxpayer. Regardless of the statistics (of which 68.83% of the people reading this forum do not believe) its not even close to the same thing.

Most of the threads I see here are "I took a 20% cut so the public sector should too".

If 70% of companies have not had any pay cut yhen it puts that sharing the pain mantra in a different perspective.

meditraitor

maxximus wrote: »

CSO figures shatter myth of huge pay gaps.

It shows that for permanent full-time employees between 25 and 49, the so called public sector premium is 12.6%. As this analysis dates from 2007, the differential would now be far less as public sector workers have since been hit with a pay cut in the form of the so called pension levy of an average of 7.5% of salary.

my granny was funny, she had a dog called rosie!

jimmmy

maxximus wrote: »

Can any construction worker tell me if they had a nixer tomorrow , eg 1k work , they would sign off , cause it wouldnt happen , you know it and i know it.

The only people with a grand to spend now are public sector workers.

If you know someone getting the dole + doing nixers, report them to our ultra efficient revenue etc. End of story.

As someone else said ", clearly the public sector has become an upper class and the private sector(who also pay the PS wages) have become the underclass!
We are a bit pissed of " Too true.

PeteEd

maxximus wrote: »

a lot of construction workers are signing and working , it is fact guys , simple as that.

The majority I know have worked days and weeks here and there without signing off the register , it is turning into a copy of what happened in the 80s in this country.

Well shop them then instead of complaining about it.

Yes it goes on, but talking %'s with the number unemployed, construction workers are no worse than any other sector and don't deserve to be singled out for a bashing over anyone else.

MikeC101

InReality wrote: »

Most of the threads I see here are "I took a 20% cut so the public sector should too".

If 70% of companies have not had any pay cut yhen it puts that sharing the pain mantra in a different perspective.

But you're not taking into account the amount of people who have lost jobs, either through companies trying to stay viable or that have gone bankrupt. Or even how many people are working much longer hours, or doing extra work for no extra pay.

And it's not really a case of "I took a 20% cut so the public sector should too", it's a case of "your employer doesn't have the money to pay you and can't keep borrowing to do so."

What do you suggest? Continuing to borrow is only piling on more debt to future generations. Like it or not, we all have to take a hit, we need increased taxes plus reduced public sector pay plus reduced social welfare. We need to do it all, not just one.

maxximus

meditraitor only believes what he wants .

murphaph

maxximus wrote: »

Also , the amount of social welfare fraud in the private sector is now widespread and deserves a mention. Especially , former construction workers , the amount doing nixers and cash in hand while receiving sw payments needs to be looked into.

True, but the fusspot unions kick up stink when the govt want to move civil servants around into roles that are more pressing and in the national interest. The public sector unions don't know what the national interest is of course.

Does this 70% include those on short time or just those who've had an actual pay-cut exacted on their gross pay?

Does it include the 160,000 now unemployed people who've taken a 100% pay-cut in the past 12 months alone?

If the private sector is so buoyant as the public sector would like to believe from reading these figures-were has all the tax revenue gone (the stuff what pays your wages)?

Scofflaw

Again, there seem to be people under the impression that this is about 'blame' and 'fault', and that the public sector is being 'penalised' as 'scapegoats'.

Get over it - the money isn't there to pay your wages, so your wages will have to be reduced to the point that they can be paid.

It's quite possible this wouldn't happen in 70% of governments, but you've been unlucky - you're in the 30% of governments where it's necessary.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maxximus

I , I would imagine , am like the majority of people, have no bitterness to anyone making a few quid if they can in the current climate.

I dont begrudge anyone for what they earn , neither did I in the boom when a lot earned a lot more than I.

Pity , a lot of people on here dont look at it the same way.

InReality

Riskymove wrote: »

gross generalisations, bashing and so on...on BOTH public and private sector

gets us NOWHERE!


niether do bitterness, malice or vengence

Steady on there !

I actually agree that the private/public "split" is a great distraction from what really caused out current problems and how we could solve them.

But all the anti-PS threads reak of "bitterness, malice or vengence" so I wanted to give some overall perpective on whats actually happening, rather than all the personal rants.

Riskymove

InReality wrote: »

Steady on there !

But all the anti-PS threads reak of "bitterness, malice or vengence" so I wanted to give some overall perpective on whats actually happening, rather than all the personal rants.

the stat you posted is being twisted ...just like many on the private sector twist figures to suit their positions

we all know that not 100% of private sector have had a pay cut (indeed there have been rises) or redundancies etc

but that 70% figure is indeed a smoke-screen to get around redundancies, less hours, compulsary unpaid leave which some in the private sector have been experincing

P. Breathnach

jimmmy wrote: »

... The only nixers I see are teachers and lecturers giving grinds etc for cash, and lecturers doing summer tourism nixers. Some lecturers in the areas of quantity surveying, engineering, architecture etc did a lot of nixers during the boom but that has probably dried up now.

Your inability to see any black economy activity other than that done by public service employees is due to the blinkers you choose to wear.

Riskymove

Scofflaw wrote: »

Get over it - the money isn't there to pay your wages, so your wages will have to be reduced to the point that they can be paid.

cordially,
Scofflaw

thats simply not the case and such a position is part of why we have so much debate on this issue

expenditure has to be reduced but wage cuts do not HAVE to be reduced in order to achieve that

over €2bn has already been shaved off the public pay bill without core pay cuts

InReality

Scofflaw wrote: »

Again, there seem to be people under the impression that this is about 'blame' and 'fault', and that the public sector is being 'penalised' as 'scapegoats'.

Get over it - the money isn't there to pay your wages, so your wages will have to be reduced to the point that they can be paid.

It's quite possible this wouldn't happen in 70% of governments, but you've been unlucky - you're in the 30% of governments where it's necessary.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well your first point is actually happening - have a look through any of the sunday papers !

As for your second , well thats at least 2 of 3 interlinked debates ,all which has been done to death.
I would point out though a few things I think are worth emphasising.
That the idea that the money isn't there has been said many times in this country and yet been proven wrong on many occasions between tax amnesties , ansbacher , and such like.
Secondly whether raising revenue is a good idea or counter productive is almost impossible to tell given that the stats about it get tied up in the ideology around it.
Even the dept of finance memo about the "pleasure of taxing 1 rich person" shows the level of biases around that.

Jaysoose

maxximus wrote: »

I , I would imagine , am like the majority of people, have no bitterness to anyone making a few quid if they can in the current climate.

I dont begrudge anyone for what they earn , neither did I in the boom when a lot earned a lot more than I.

Pity , a lot of people on here dont look at it the same way.

Nobody forced you to work in the PS during the boom so people using this nonsense argument for the current farcical levels of benefits/pay being collected now (as the boom has well and truly bust) in the PS are off their rocker and do not understand basic economics.

Benchmarking has in effect contributed greatly to the impending bankruptcy of this country i just hope the unions etc are satisfied when it happens.

The money is not there anymore so adjustments must be made and quick, its not begrudgery its reality.

maxximus

jaysoose , i chose to work in the public service on the basis of security

Jaysoose

maxximus wrote: »

jaysoose , i chose to work in the public service on the basis of security

So using the "private sector made more than us during the boom" is not an argument that you can roll out.

The same private sector worker without garaunteed pay rises regardless of performance.

jimmmy

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Your inability to see any black economy activity other than that done by public service employees is due to the blinkers you choose to wear.

Do you see any black market economy activity ( apart from teachers + lecturers doing grinds etc ). What type of activity is it / what sector, and I hope you have reported it ?

jimmmy

maxximus wrote: »

jaysoose , i chose to work in the public service on the basis of security

Its just an unrelated bonus so that its better paid, better pension, shorter hours, more sickies etc. Good choice. Who would have thought our govt would do so much for the public service for so long.

gandalf

If people are doing "nixers" they should be shopped end of story. Now as for this 70% figure that is being bandied about does anyone have a source for this.

What is true is people ARE taking cuts in take home pay, I am down 30% from my earnings back in 2007, then again the company I was working with then until the beginning of this year no longer exists and over 20 people were made redundant. Some of those people are still looking for employment (luckly I left just before the axe fell!).

In the private sector if a company is not making money they correct the situation by cutting wages or numbers or both. If they are making money they don't, if they are doing well they reward the staff. In the PS at the moment the cost of staff is exceeding the money there for them. If you don't want a cut in your wages some of you will have to lose your jobs, do you really want this? One thing I agree with is the higher earners in the PS should take a higher proportion of the pain involved.

What really surprises me is the total lack of common sense being displayed by the PS as represented by alot of posters on this forum and their so called union leaders.

ednwireland

the pay gap is irrelevant the gov hasnt the money to pay the wages, when that happens in the co. i work for we get part wages until the money comes in (we also took a paycut btw)

if people are signing on and doing nixers (as a lot of builders did even during the boom then the benefits people arent doing their job properly, when i signed on in 2002 (company went bust) the people i saw signing on all had workwear on i was looked at funny when i signed off when i got odd days work here and there.

so where does the benefit fraud issue really lie?

give you a clue, the people who run the system

MikeC101

Without a source, the stat is fairly useless.

Scofflaw

Riskymove wrote: »

thats simply not the case and such a position is part of why we have so much debate on this issue

expenditure has to be reduced but wage cuts do not HAVE to be reduced in order to achieve that

over €2bn has already been shaved off the public pay bill without core pay cuts

This year the Irish government deficit will increase by €26 billion to an estimated €76 billion, made up of the public service wage bill, welfare, and programmes. Programmes are being cut, welfare is being cut...

cordially,
Scofflaw

maxximus

maxximus wrote: »

CSO figures shatter myth of huge pay gaps.

It shows that for permanent full-time employees between 25 and 49, the so called public sector premium is 12.6%. As this analysis dates from 2007, the differential would now be far less as public sector workers have since been hit with a pay cut in the form of the so called pension levy of an average of 7.5% of salary.

Irrelevant.
The government spends 500 million a week more than it earns.
That means it must cut it's cloth to suit it's measure or eventually the imf will do it for them.

I'm involved with a company by the way that has cut it's staff by two thirds so as to remain trading profitably.
They have not cut the wages of the remainder because they are doing 3 times the work now for a much lower turnover.
The same common sense in a recession should be applied to the public service.

gurramok

maxximus wrote: »

CSO figures shatter myth of huge pay gaps.

It shows that for permanent full-time employees between 25 and 49, the so called public sector premium is 12.6%. As this analysis dates from 2007, the differential would now be far less as public sector workers have since been hit with a pay cut in the form of the so called pension levy of an average of 7.5% of salary.

In hand, its about half of that 7.5% after tax relief. http://finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Publications/other/2009/pensiondedtablemay09.pdf

The private sector wage cuts have been decimated since 2006, why do you think income tax has fallen off a cliff since then?

dvpower

InReality wrote: »

Most of the threads I see here are "I took a 20% cut so the public sector should too".

If 70% of companies have not had any pay cut yhen it puts that sharing the pain mantra in a different perspective.

Yeah. This is a poor arguement. Its always been the case that if you work in a sector that's doing well, you will also do well. If you work in a sector thats under pressure, like construction, the motor industry or the Public Service then you too will be under pressure.

Calling for fairness or someone to share the pain is a little bit naive. The unemployed construction workers and car sales people know this already. Public servants are still on the learning curve.

murphaph

Does this 70% figure also take into account those who've been made redundant through the closure of a firm, then rehired by another firm on lower wages?

It's a pay cut, but hidden behind a redundancy/rehiring.

maxximus

sorry lads , i make no apologies for choosing the public sector route i did 12 years ago , the choice was made on the basis of security as i said , i am now happy i made that choice.

meditraitor

maxximus wrote: »

sorry lads , i make no apologies for choosing the public sector route i did 12 years ago , the choice was made on the basis of security as i said , i am now happy i made that choice.

Good stuff, you made a good choice, but you cannot defend the indefensible. PS pay is too high.

maxximus

as is the private sector

Tipp Man

maxximus wrote: »

sorry lads , i make no apologies for choosing the public sector route i did 12 years ago , the choice was made on the basis of security as i said , i am now happy i made that choice.

Of course your delighted with yourself, your getting more salary than if you worked in private sector, better terms of employment, unrivaled job secrity and a DEFINED BENIFIT pension

meditraitor

Tipp Man wrote: »

Of course your delighted with yourself, your getting more salary than if you worked in private sector, better terms of employment, unrivaled job secrity and a DEFINED BENIFIT pension

All paid for by the taxpayer/private sector

Scofflaw

maxximus wrote: »

as is the private sector

True, but I think there's something you're not quite grasping here. When private sector pay rates fall, so does the government's income tax receipts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

maxximus

im not one who takes pensions seriously , ill worry about it when i reach it and through the pension levy and superannuation and widows and orphans ill have contributed enough towards it .

again , it was part of the deal when i chose the route i did and again i make no apologies for being successful in securing my employment 12 yrs ago.