Lords Supper

BrianCalgary

CHRISTIAN ONLY PLEASE

There are three views on teh Lords Supper. I am curious where everyone sits.

Transubstantiation - The bread and wine get transformed into the body and blood of Christ.

Christ's Presence - christ is present in some way within the host.

Symbolic - The bread and wine are simply symbols of Jesus' body and blood.

Plowman

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Turtwig

I think you should have made this poll public, that way you'd see who was voting and for what.
Not meaning to be cynical but these kinda opinion polls usually attract voters that actually don't even bother posting in the forum.

Anyways, as I'm not a Christian I won't vote, however, I always thought it was transubstantiation

lmaopml

Two for transubstantiation but my understanding of it, is that it's a word that developed over time to make the 2nd option more clearly understandable.

Do we have to post if we vote? Is it bad manners or something not to? lol..

BrianCalgary

this is my first go at a poll. So I wasn't sure whether or not to make it public.

Anyhow, the next question is why do you hold to the particular position you do?

philologos

I don't think Christ is present in the bread and the wine, but rather that He is present during the event itself. So I've picked symbolic on this one.

JimiTime

Symbolic. There are somethings where common sense leads the way. Of course there is always the scripture when Jesus says about what you eat does not make you unlean, and says that what you eat is 'evacuated' from your bowels etc. Its quite obvious to me that its symbolic.

postcynical

I was stuck between 1 and 2 but went for transsubstantiation. When push comes to shove, I do believe that the consecrated bread and wine is actually Christ's flesh and blood on the altar. Now I wish I understood why that is and could explain it.

Of course I also believe Christ is symbolically present too and it's hard to argue that Christ is more present in the consecrated Host at a Mass than He is at a Lord's Supper amongst Christians. He is present all the time anyway as far as I can discern; certainly whenever I need Him, He's there.

I can't explain the technicalities but I believe He's there on the altar, humble and vulnerable; to be mocked, to be trampled underfoot, to be chewed and digested by unworthy creatures if they so want. Just like He was in his human body.

Plowman

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homer911

Plowman wrote: »

I'm surprised at the number of those who only believe in Christ's symbolic presence.

I figured many people would at least believe in His real presence in some non-physical way. Symbolic seems rather empty, but feel free to correct me on that one.

I "voted" as symbolic, on the basis that I believe that Christ is just as present at the Lord's Supper as he is at any other meeting of a body of Christians (Matthew 18:20) No more and no less

cianl1

Trans for the win!:D

In all seriousness though, people see the description that the bread and wine are "the body and blood of Christ" and get scared/confused. What they don't realise is that the Church's official definition, as per the most recent cathecism is that the essence of Christ is in the bread and wine, thus they become part of Him. Godforbid that people should actually look these things up for themselves to improve their understanding of things so complex and hard to grasp.

Makes sense to me...

BrianCalgary

Over the years I have held all three positions at one time or another as I tried to grasp what Jesus meant when He said, 'This is my body' and 'This is my blood'.

I cant go as far as transubstantiation as Jesus was standing right there in the flesh as He said it.

Symbolic doesn't work because every commentary I have ever read finishes with (and I paraphrase) 'what Jesus really meant was 'this represents my body and blood'', in effect adding to words of Jesus.

But when taking into consideration the verses that point to the Lords supper;
The gospel account of the last supper

John 6:50-55 (New International Version)
50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.


And 1 Corinthians 10:16
16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

There is more than symbolism going on. An act that is shared by all of God's people around the world. There is something happening that I can't explain.

The other thought I have is that Jesus instituted two acts: Baptism and Lords Supper. In Baptism the Holy Spirit is present, I can't help but think that there is a presence within communion as well.

In the end it is not a topic that should divide us as it is secondary and does not bear on salvation.

Fanny Cradock

I'd go for option 2. But I would have to admit that I'm not clear on the finer points of what this entails.

Soul Winner

Symbolic.

There are two elements at the Table of the Lord. Wine and Bread. That's because there are two issues being addressed in the atonement. Forgiveness of sins and healing of sicknesses. The blood provides forgiveness of sins and the bread provides healing. When we partake of these elements in the right way and approach this table properly then we can avail of these benefits. If we don't partake properly then unfortunately the opposite is true. So it is very important that we partake in the right manner.

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Isaiah 53:5


"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."1 Peter 2:24

The stripes He endured are when God laid on Him all our sicknesses and diseases and this is remembered when we partake of the bread. God not only laid our sins on Christ but He also laid our sicknesses on Him too. When we partake of the elements of the Table of the Lord we must keep our focus on what He has already done as Paul points out below. As soon as our focus shifts from what He did for us on the cross to anything else including ourselves then we are not partaking properly. We are to understand that what Christ did for us on the cross is forever adequate to cover our sins and bring healing to our mortal bodies when we are sick. That's why there are two elements at the table not just one. If the covering for sins was all that was needed then all we would need is the cup with the wine. The bread is there because God also provided healing through His stripes.

In the Old Testament these two elements we symbolized in the Passover supper that the Israelites kept every year after they were delivered from their bondage in Egypt. They killed a lamb and put the blood over their doors and lintels. The went inside their houses and ate the roasted lamb for strength. Two elements yet again. Sins covered which provided protection from death and healthy bodies from eating the roasted lamb. That's why Psalm 105:37 states that they came forth from that land and there wasn't a feeble person among them. Jesus transposed this supper which was symbolic into the new practice of partaking of the bread and wine. No need to kill a lamb anymore as He was the true Lamb, the others being symbolic of Him. Both of these suppers were first kept in houses and not in churches which means that anyone can partake of these elements in the privacy of their own homes. The first Passover was kept in homes and the first of the Lord's supper was kept in John-Mark mother's home in the NT.

Here's what Paul has to say about the Table of the Lord.

"For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." 1 corinthians 11:23-30


Notice that Paul states that it is the not discerning of the Lord's body that defines eating and drinking unworthily? So it is the manner of partaking that is really important. That means that when we partake we must put all our focus on what Jesus already did for us. We are not to put our focus on anything else including even ourselves. We are to examine the manner in which we are partaking not the worthiness or not our ourselves as partakers. Nobody is actually worthy to partake, but because of what He did we are made worthy. When we keep our focus on Him and what He did for us while we are partaking then we are partaking worthily. If our focus is on anything else and not on what He already did, then we are partaking unworthily.

Why is it that most of Christianity has this backwards? They teach that we must somehow become worthy before we partake? But as we have seen, to do that would be to take the focus off what He did on the cross and put it onto ourselves. We must be careful not to do this and keep away from anybody who persists in this false teaching.

BrianCalgary

Soul Winner wrote: »

Notice that Paul states that it is the not discerning of the Lord's body that defines eating and drinking unworthily? So it is the manner of partaking that is really important. That means that when we partake we must put all our focus on what Jesus already did for us. We are not to put our focus on anything else including even ourselves. We are to examine the manner in which we are partaking not the worthiness or not our ourselves as partakers. Nobody is actually worthy to partake, but because of what He did we are made worthy. When we keep our focus on Him and what He did for us while we are partaking then we are partaking worthily. If our focus is on anything else and not on what He already did, then we are partaking unworthily.

Why is it that most of Christianity has this backwards? They teach that we must somehow become worthy before we partake? But as we have seen, to do that would be to take the focus off what He did on the cross and put it onto ourselves. We must be careful not to do this and keep away from anybody who persists in this false teaching.

Well said.

LordSutch

As a protestant I obviously voted Symbolic .............

Importantly, 'This Topic' is one of the main teaching differences (and/or beliefs), that seperates the 'Roman Catholic Church' from the rest of the Christian family of reformed Churches. > Church of Ireland for example.

BrianCalgary

Camelot wrote: »

As a protestant I obviously voted Symbolic .............

Importantly, 'This Topic' is one of the main teaching differences (and/or beliefs), that seperates the 'Roman Catholic Church' from the rest of the Christian family of reformed Churches. > Church of Ireland for example.

Church of Ireland holds to 'the real presence of Christ'.

BrianCalgary

Question 168: What is the Lord's Supper?

Answer: The Lord's Supper is a sacrament of the New Testament, wherein, by giving and receiving bread and wine according to the appointment of Jesus Christ, his death is showed forth; and they that worthily communicate feed upon his body and blood, to their spiritual nourishment and growth in grace; have their union and communion with him confirmed; testify and renew their thankfulness, and engagement to God, and their mutual love and fellowship each with other, as members of the same mystical body.

Question 169: How has Christ appointed bread and wine to be given and received in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper?

Answer: Christ has appointed the ministers of his Word, in the administration of this sacrament of the Lord's Supper, to set apart the bread and wine from common use, by the word of institution, thanksgiving, and prayer; to take and break the bread, and to give both the bread and the wine to the communicants: who are, by the same appointment, to take and eat the bread, and to drink the wine, in thankful remembrance that the body of Christ was broken and given, and his blood shed, for them.

Question 170: How do they that worthily communicate in the Lord's Supper feed upon the body and blood of Christ therein?

Answer: As the body and blood of Christ are not corporally or carnally present in, with, or under the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper, and yet are spiritually present to the faith of the receiver, no less truly and really than the elements themselves are to their outward senses; so they that worthily communicate in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, do therein feed upon the body and blood of Christ, not after a corporal and carnal, but in a spiritual manner; yet truly and really, while by faith they receive and apply unto themselves Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death.

Question 171: How are they that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper to prepare themselves before they come unto it?

Answer: They that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper are, before they come, to prepare themselves thereunto, by examining themselves of their being in Christ, of their sins and wants; of the truth and measure of their knowledge, faith, repentance; love to God and the brethren, charity to all men, forgiving those that have done them wrong; of their desires after Christ, and of their new obedience; and by renewing the exercise of these graces, by serious meditation, and fervent prayer.

Question 172: May one who doubts of his being in Christ, or of his due preparation, come to the Lord's Supper?

Answer: One who doubts of his being in Christ, or of his due preparation to the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, may have true interest in Christ, though he be not yet assured thereof; and in God's account has it, if he be duly affected with the apprehension of the want of it, and unfeignedly desires to be found in Christ, and to depart from iniquity: in which case (because promises are made, and this sacrament is appointed, for the relief even of weak and doubting Christians) he is to bewail his unbelief, and labor to have his doubts resolved; and, so doing, he may and ought to come to the Lord's Supper, that he may be further strengthened.

Question 173: May any who profess the faith, and desire to come to the Lord's Supper, be kept from it?

Answer: Such as are found to be ignorant or scandalous, notwithstanding their profession of the faith, and desire to come to the Lord's Supper, may and ought to be kept from that sacrament, by the power which Christ has left in his church, until they receive instruction, and manifest their reformation.

Question 174: What is required of them that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper in the time of the administration of it?

Answer: It is required of them that receive the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, that, during the time of the administration of it, with all holy reverence and attention they wait upon God in that ordinance, diligently observe the sacramental elements and actions, heedfully discern the Lord's body, and affectionately meditate on his death and sufferings, and thereby stir up themselves to a vigorous exercise of their graces; in judging themselves, and sorrowing for sin; in earnest hungering and thirsting after Christ, feeding on him by faith, receiving of his fulness, trusting in his merits, rejoicing in his love, giving thanks for his grace; in renewing of their covenant with God, and love to all the saints.

Question 175: What is the duty of Christians, after they have received the sacrament of the Lord's Supper?

Answer: The duty of Christians, after they have received the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, is seriously to consider: How they have behaved themselves therein, and with: What success; if they find quickening and comfort, to bless God for it, beg the continuance of it, watch against relapses, fulfil their vows, and encourage themselves to a frequent attendance on that ordinance: but if they find no present benefit, more exactly to review their preparation to, and carriage at, the sacrament; in both which, if they can approve themselves to God and their own consciences, they are to wait for the fruit of it in due time: but, if they see they have failed in either, they are to be humbled, and to attend upon it afterwards with more care and diligence.

LordSutch

BrianCalgary wrote: »

Church of Ireland holds to 'the real presence of Christ'.

We believe that the taking of the 'bread & wine' is purely Symbolic.

santing

As a Christian I obviously voted Symbolic. Transubstantiation is part of the Roman superstitions and idolatry.

Plowman

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Plowman

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lmaopml

The Eucharist is one of the reasons why I chose the Catholic Church

santing

Plowman wrote: »

So how would various non-Catholic denominations interpret passages such as:...

In John 6 the Lord Jesus clearly indicated a spiritual interpretation of his saying when He finished with:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (Joh 6:63)

So we take these passages as spiritual, not physical - afterall, He was bodily present there when He said "This is my body." He didn't say: "This is also my body"
Compare it with various other passages speaking about the body of Christ, are these meant spiritually or physically?

But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Rom 8:10)

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?--unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2Co 13:5)

I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)

so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith--that you, being rooted and grounded in love, (Eph 3:17)

For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.(Col 3:3-4)

so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. (Rom 12:5)

Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. (1Co 12:27)

[the Church], which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. (Eph 1:23)

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Eph 3:6)

And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
(Col 1:18)

Speaking about the "Real Presence," we Christians are the real presence on earth

LordSutch

Plowman wrote: »

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Who are the non-Catholics you speak of?

BrianCalgary

santing wrote: »

In John 6 the Lord Jesus clearly indicated a spiritual interpretation of his saying when He finished with:
So we take these passages as spiritual, not physical - afterall, He was bodily present there when He said "This is my body." He didn't say: "This is also my body"
Compare it with various other passages speaking about the body of Christ, are these meant spiritually or physically?
Speaking about the "Real Presence," we Christians are the real presence on earth

Thanks you for all that work. As far as I'm concerned, and I have held to all three views in my lifetime, is that I cant go transubstantiation because Jesus' body was right there as he spoke the words at the last supper.

Symbolism was empty as I particaipated in communion. His spiritual presence, a more intimate presence, that occures at this time is what I see as being more likely, I think you have articulated that very well.

BrianCalgary

Camelot wrote: »

We believe that the taking of the 'bread & wine' is purely Symbolic.

Isn't Church of Ireland the same as the Anglican Church and Church of England?

LordSutch

The Church of Ireland is part of the worldwide Anglican communion, (as is the Church of England), and we do not believe in Transubstantiation, but I think I am right in saying that the 'Roman Catholic Church' is the only church that believes in the 'literal change' from bread & wine, into real flesh & actual blood of Christ.

For us 'Communion' is a very powerful & moving event (but its purely Symbolic) in a very spiritual way.

BrianCalgary

The Westminster Catechism is the official teaching of teh Anglican church which is clearly, 'presence of Christ'.
Whish is what I was taught in my confirmation classes.

LordSutch

We can bat this back & forth until the end of time, but i'm telling you with a great degree of certainty that the Anglican Church does not believe in Transubstantiation.

philologos

Westminster Cathecism is a Reformed document by the Presbyterian churches, and other dissenting Protestants not by the Church of England and by extension, not by other Anglicans.

It is worthy of consideration though.

The document you are looking for is the 39 Articles of Religion by Richard Hooker one of the founding members of the Church of England:

28. Of the Lord's Supper.
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to
another, but rather it is a Sacrament of our Redemption by Christ's death: insomuch that to such as rightly,
worthily, and with faith, receive the same, the Bread which we break is a partaking of the Body of Christ; and
likewise the Cup of Blessing is a partaking of the Blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be
proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament,
and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
The Body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten, in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the Body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper, is Faith.
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or
worshipped.

This is on the Church of Ireland website and in the Book of Common Prayer:
http://ireland.anglican.org/index.php?do=worship&id=14