Railfreight as Obsolete as Donkey Carts Soon.

csd

corktina wrote: »

I think you forget that the cost base of freight by rail must include some of the cost of the track , signalling etc. (The truck driver pays his road tax(yes no such thing I know:rolleyes:) maintains his truck and claims such expense against his tax and away he goes). If the provider of the track, signalling et al is an inefficent organiisation then the costs attributable to the rail operation will be huge and the 18 trucks pretty soon come out cheaper....

Now we're on to something here. The question then becomes, do the various taxes collected from hauliers cover the direct and indirect costs due to the haulage industry? IE may be inefficient, but the road network doesn't come for free either.

Is anyone aware of any studies done on this?

/csd

csd

DWCommuter wrote: »

You'll have to address that question the the person who claimed that. I didn't.

Apologies, I should have more clearly directed the latter half of the post to Nostrudamus. You can't blame me too much though, sometimes it's hard to tell between you two

I supported the OPs comments in relation to the type of person campaigning for railfreight and I commented on that. The simple point I was making is; Rail Freight campaigners in Ireland tend to be dominated by rail enthusiasts and a large amount of them from the UK. There is no escaping this fact. I then stated that they existed outside of the "normal day to day commerce of it".- By this it should be obvious that Im referring to the various companies still using rail for freight and those who want to. But is it not true that we hear more about the Nigels and Tarquins than we do about Norfolk line and IWT?

Yes, I understand what you were trying to do, I just still can't fathom why. Googling only proves that there are enthusiasts posting about railfreight, it doesn't mean they're actually an effective instrument for influencing transport policy in Ireland. As I said in the Sligo thread, apart from anecdotes about emails you received from some of the lunatic fringe during your P11 days, I just don't know why yourself and Nostrudamus have to keep banging on about UK trainspotters.

Sure, if IE had retained a fleet of A-class locos to trundle up and down the Cork main line at 25 mph with loose-coupled sundries wagons, and if you could provide at least a little proof that this was because of the Nigels and Tarquins, then I'd be right behind you, 100 per cent. In reality, IE have scrapped all 1950s and 60s vintage locos and retained the 071s for PW trains and a very lean freight operation based on bulk charters. So what's the hysteria for? It was funny the first few times, but now it just distracts from the real issues.

For example, I'd love to know if anyone has ever done a comprehensive cost study on the comparitave per-tonne-km costs for rail and road freight in Ireland. Include everything on the road side: fuel, depreciation and maintenance of the vehicles, depreciation and maintenance of the road network, costs due to deaths/accidents, carbon emissions. Include everything on the rail side too, as corktina said: PW and signalling costs, level crossing keepers, fuel and maintenance for the locos, etc etc.

Until this is done I'm not going to believe the extremists from either camp. The answer probably lies somewhere in the middle, where railfreight is neither our saviour nor a hopeless cause to be consigned to the dustbin of history.

/csd

corktina

csd wrote: »

Now we're on to something here. The question then becomes, do the various taxes collected from hauliers cover the direct and indirect costs due to the haulage industry? IE may be inefficient, but the road network doesn't come for free either.

/csd

no they dont, any more than your car tax covers your share of road building and maintenace costs... Now then, what to do about it? Do you increase costs to road hauliers to a real level and push up the price of everything pretty well OR do you make sure that CIE is as efficient as it is possible to make it? OR is there another alternative?

Victor

csd wrote: »

For example, I'd love to know if anyone has ever done a comprehensive cost study on the comparitave per-tonne-km costs for rail and road freight in Ireland. Include everything on the road side: fuel, depreciation and maintenance of the vehicles, depreciation and maintenance of the road network, costs due to deaths/accidents, carbon emissions. Include everything on the rail side too, as corktina said: PW and signalling costs, level crossing keepers, fuel and maintenance for the locos, etc etc.

From an end user point of view, it seems the break-even point is 400km. Of course that will depend on load type, handling, etc. I don't know how thorough thte examination is with regard to secondary costs.


http://www.engineersireland.ie/community/societies/transportation/

Rail Freight in Ireland

Presented by Derval Cummins, Booz & Company

16th September, 2009
Content

* Why is rail freight topical?
* Benefits of rail freight
* Policies to support rail freight
* Status of rail freight in Ireland

Rail Freight in Ireland (PDF 4.25MB)

Hungerford

DWCommuter wrote: »

"outside of the normal day to day commerce of it"

That's actually a rather important element of the discussion: if you don't allow people to discuss the business case for a business service, you can win pretty much every argument for the non-provision of such a service.

Switch rail freight for, say, petrol stations and you'll see what I mean.

dermo88

Railfreight in Ireland is no longer relevant at the time of writing. In 1994, a report by the Ministry of Transport stated that.

"Iarnrod Eireann is vulnerable on depending on so few customers in the railfreight sector, and the demise of one, may lead to the loss of the whole business"

It almost happened, and the man who helped assist the decline is now in charge of the ESB Unions, Mr Brendan Ogle.

So remember that if you are cold this winter, and his buddies are down the pub singing "We'll keep the red flag flying". Words cannot express how much contempt I hold for their brand of champagne socialism.

Meanwhile, I could go on forever wasting my time on the likes of Alan Helfner (DublinCorkTGV) at another forum using haemorrhoid cream inducing phrases such as "Argumentum ad Hominem".

munchkin_utd

Thought this would be a good place to park what I just found.

Freight doesnt look like its being abandoned just quite yet.
Heres a tender for "Supply of 40 leased or purchased rail freight wagons (new or 2nd hand)" for Irish Rail.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN140196&catID=22

(then again, it might simply be for wagons to carry balast for track repairs for all the contract seems to specify!!)

FlameoftheWest

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Thought this would be a good place to park what I just found.

Freight doesnt look like its being abandoned just quite yet.
Heres a tender for "Supply of 40 leased or purchased rail freight wagons (new or 2nd hand)" for Irish Rail.

http://www.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=JAN140196&catID=22

(then again, it might simply be for wagons to carry balast for track repairs for all the contract seems to specify!!)

They are for removing spoil from the Interconector works.

Hungerford

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

They are for removing spoil from the Interconector works.

Doubt it. They normally specify spoil wagons by name when they are tendering for them. Besides, would they really need 40 for removing spoil?

FlameoftheWest

Hungerford wrote: »

Doubt it. They normally specify spoil wagons by name when they are tendering for them. Besides, would they really need 40 for removing spoil?

By spreading the spoil load along a 40ft lenght you can get a conveyer inside a tunnel to have enough clearence to load the container which is not possible with a high-sided spoil wagon.

monument

Lads... It's not those nasty UK train spotters you need to watch out for. Those are not the foreigners who are taking over Irish railways. It's the multi-national companies you really need to keep an eye on.

corktina wrote: »

...there IS no suitable cargo stream for rail in Ireland with the possible exception of Tara mines.... there is no likelihood of there ever being such a thing in the future.

What on earth is this then?...



Ballina rail yard, and note the date it was taken on: January 27, 2010.

Shocking stuff this.

corktina

that is the aforementioned Norfolk lines working to Waterford which, im told runs almost empty and whic together witht he timber traffic and the tara mines traffic comprises the sum taotal of IE freight operations

Judgement Day

Keep those pics coming - but one swallow doesn't make a summer. The lesson from Ballina is that despite the best efforts of CIE/IE to abandon rail freight private operators want to send goods by rail.

Incidentally don't you just love these further examples of accuracy from the 'paper of record', typical of the sort of lazy journalism that the paper has become synonymous with since Madame took over.

'Trains of 18 carriages each carrying 40ft containers holding 35 tonnes of product will arrive at the port every Monday and Wednesday evening, taking up to 4,000 lorries off the road yearly. IWT said it intends to expand to a daily service within six months, servicing the western region.'

and

'While the McCarthy report recommended cuts to some regional rail freight lines, this would not affect the new service, as it operates on the Dublin-Ballina passenger line.'

And there was me thinking that McCarthy highlighted three passenger lines for closure: Manulla Jn-Ballina; Limerick-Ballybrophy and Limerick Jn-Rosslare Harbour. Silly old me!:D

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

that is the aforementioned Norfolk lines working to Waterford which, im told runs almost empty and whic together witht he timber traffic and the tara mines traffic comprises the sum taotal of IE freight operations

That is IWT liner train from Dublin's North Wall being unloaded at Ballina and as it is run by a private operator I sincerely doubt that it runs empty contrary to reports by an ex.member of Boards.ie

corktina

sorry..i meant the timber traffic goes to waterford...got my tongue in my eye tooth, couldnt see what i was saying

KC61

If you are seriously suggesting that the private companies paying for and contracting the liner trains to/from Ballina are operating "nearly empty trains" then really I think you need to go and view them for yourself. That is pure nonsense and drivel. Any of the pictures that I have seen were and are far from empty. It was only one person who rather mischievously suggested otherwise.

The current railfreight is:
Tara Mines to Dublin Port
IWT liner from Ballina to Dublin Port
Timber from Ballina to Waterford
IFDS liner from Ballina to Waterford

True - a shell of its former self, but the liner flows are seemingly performing well and there may well be more to come.

corktina

it has been suggested by "people who take numbers" that some of the liner trains contain some of the same containers all the time and that these are shuttling back and forth empty or nearly so. I dont know how true this is but thats what I was told, im not about to go up there and start writing down container numbers to find out you understand.

Personally Id love to see rail-bourne freight increase dramatically, but I just cant see where a suitable flow would exist.

KC61

corktina wrote: »

it has been suggested by "people who take numbers" that some of the liner trains contain some of the same containers all the time and that these are shuttling back and forth empty or nearly so. I dont know how true this is but thats what I was told, im not about to go up there and start writing down container numbers to find out you understand.

Personally Id love to see rail-bourne freight increase dramatically, but I just cant see where a suitable flow would exist.

That was suggested by Nostradamus rather mischievously.

Come on - get real here. We are talking about two major multinationals here. They are not going to pay out for a liner train to go back and forth carrying the same containers for the sake of it.

Cookie_Monster

Its a pity that the distances involved are too small for the supermarkets to get involved. In the UK Tesco (and others I'd imagine) ship freight from the south to Scottish depots by rail. train a day each way iirc, runs by Stobart Rail

paulm17781

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Its a pity that the distances involved are too small

This is why rail freight is dead in this country.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

This is why rail freight is dead in this country.

Plus a lack of political will or interest from the railway company!

csd

It seems to me that while important, distance has less to do with it than the type of economy we're moving towards. Rail handled freight quite well in the past, even with the smaller distances.

What seems to be a big factor is the move away from making stuff and towards a knowledge-based economy. The remaining manufacturing is conveniently located close to ports (pharmaceuticals, alumina), or too small to sustain the bulk flows rail is suited to. The old industries that used freight (Asahi, IFI) are gone. It seems that wages in Ireland are just too uncompetitive for manufacturing these days.

/csd

corktina

distance is one factor, lack of population density is another. Its one thing Tesco freighting stuff from the densley populated south UK to the densely populated forth/clyde valley area , quite another to freight stuff to or from a small town like (say) Sligo.

pie chart

corktina wrote: »

distance is one factor, lack of population density is another. Its one thing Tesco freighting stuff from the densley populated south UK to the densely populated forth/clyde valley area , quite another to freight stuff to or from a small town like (say) Sligo.

I disagree. Tara Mines - Alexander Road ore traffic is only 50 miles or so in each direction, yet it appears to be one of the (few) freight flows left on Irish Rail. Numerous flows operate throughout Europe which are "short distance" flows with great sucess.

I personally believe that freight traffic can work in Ireland even that Irish Rail have turned away many freight flows over the past few years, such as Scrap Metal, Aggriates, Bulk and Bag cement, Bulk Timber, Bituminen, numerous flows of container traffic, kegs, bulk oil, the list goes on and on and on.

There's (in my opinion) several flows which could start very shortly if the "will power" was there.
Such as Bulk cement, Limerick - Waterford or Platin - Waterford or Platin - Tullamore. "De mountable" cement tanks can be leased out for the flows and mounted on existing freight wagons.
The Shale traffic from the quarry near Nenagh - Limerick
Container Traffic from Cork - Dublin
To name but a few...

The problem is that there appears to be no direct interest from the Government - and certainly not from Irish Rail (Prove me wrong!) to run anything other than passenger trains, and even then!!

Regarding Tesco/Stobart you could indeed have them running in Ireland I believe, with "central distribution points" for trains to stop at, and then the containers roaded onto each destination from there in that area. I agree that the thought of having a train run from Dublin - Sligo for just 1 or 2 stores doesn't seem to be the way forward.

But, you could have "Distribution points" at the likes of Longford (for the Midlands) Mallow (For the south) Waterford/Wexford (for the south East) and Galway for the West for example.

corktina

pie in the sky if you'll excuse the rather obvious pun.

The whole point of the UK tesco operation is you have a whole train load moving to Scotland, not one container to Mallow. It would be far quicker to have a container on a lorry moving from Dublin to (lets say) Macroom than it would be to have that container loaded on to a train and then waiting whilst all the other containers are loaded and then probably having to wait again in mallow for its turn to be unloaded andf put on a truck to go to Macroom. In Tescos operation the goods go to a distribution centre where the loads are broken down and shipped off (on a truck) to all the many Tesco shops around Scotland. Ie goods in bulk...no doubt you'd have a container of (say) washing powder from Unilever...you just wouldnt have that bulk in Ireland, there arent enough shops...(low population density...)

OK, lets assume Tara Mines operation is a big sucess (although only the other day someone was talking about that traffic ceasing soon) show me another Tara mines...

The problem with all these flows you mention is that they are all short haul (because Dublin is half way up the country) and most need transshipping onto (or off) a lorry at one or both ends of the trip.

pie chart

Ok, what about the following that were working before Irish Rail ceased the traffic:

Kilmastulla Quarry - Mungret Factory Shale
Waterford - Limerick Bulk Cement
Platin - Tullamore Bulk Cement
Dublin Port - Sligo Port Oil
Galway Port - Claremorris Oil
Sligo Port - Waterford Bulk Logs
Millstreet/Ennis/Galway - Clonmel/Waterford Bulk Logs

An argument could be used that theres no demand for building supplies, however the worst of the recession appears to be over, and there has been a considerable rise in the demand for bulk timber of late, and not just by rail either....

Also the demand for bulk cement is slowly rising too from what I've seen.

pie chart

If it were all pie in the sky then why have there been numerous campaigns from TRANSPORT companies to get Irish Rail to transport their goods.

I agree that there is no need for a railfreight service for 1 container to be dropped off down the back of beyond for 1 customer.

But, if that railfreight service was restructered for a demand for "point - point" bulk flows (as I've listed above) then I believe there is a scope for demand, and more to the point more efficent & better for the enviroment than road transport...........

The likes of Waterford - Ballina and Ballina - Dublin freight flows are a good example of how this can work, and to a sucess too.

Some could say "there's no demand for a container service from a village in the west to Dublin/Waterford" and look at whats happened. Yes, there are 2x major indrustires which use the service, but I'm pretty sure if more of these flows were introduced to other "villages" then the demand could surely be there!!

Longford, Portlaoise, Cork, Dublin, Dundalk for example!!

Ham'nd'egger

pie chart wrote: »

Ok, what about the following that were working before Irish Rail ceased the traffic:

Kilmastulla Quarry - Mungret Factory Shale
Waterford - Limerick Bulk Cement
Platin - Tullamore Bulk Cement
Dublin Port - Sligo Port Oil
Galway Port - Claremorris Oil
Sligo Port - Waterford Bulk Logs
Millstreet/Ennis/Galway - Clonmel/Waterford Bulk Logs

An argument could be used that theres no demand for building supplies, however the worst of the recession appears to be over, and there has been a considerable rise in the demand for bulk timber of late, and not just by rail either....

Also the demand for bulk cement is slowly rising too from what I've seen.

Many of these ceased when the carried company breaks production, ceases with a market line or can't justify the cost or can do it cheaper another way. The timber trains have slowed up from 7-8 a week to just 2-3 a week now, cement productions has almost dried up while the shale traffic is ceased at the minute. Oil is the only traffic that Irish Rail could reintroduce but it's cheaper to bring it on road which should tell us something about the economics at play here.

corktina

exactly. Why would you want to transship the oil into a rail wagon only to have to transship it again to deliver it? The only flows that would work would be from port to end user direct or from producer to port direct. So you are limited to places with a rail connection whereas raod transport cqan not only deliver to pretty well anywhere but can also switch routes at the drop of a hat in case of problems like accidents or floods for example.

pie chart

Hamndegger wrote: »

Many of these ceased when the carried company breaks production, ceases with a market line or can't justify the cost or can do it cheaper another way. The timber trains have slowed up from 7-8 a week to just 2-3 a week now, cement productions has almost dried up while the shale traffic is ceased at the minute. Oil is the only traffic that Irish Rail could reintroduce but it's cheaper to bring it on road which should tell us something about the economics at play here.

The bulk timber trains (as I understand it) have been running 2-3 a week last year due to lack of demand, with some weeks with nothing running at all.

However, as I understand it there has been a significent rise in demand for bulk timber. Westport - Waterford has been re-introduced as a result, and Ballina - Waterford continues to run, with trains now running 4-5 times weekly. At the peak of the boom bulk timber trains were running 5-6 times weekly.

Bulk cement traffic is still viable in my opinion, there has been a slow (but a rise all the same) for bulk cement since December, yet Irish rail descided to cease the Limerick - Waterford cement flow.
Regarding shale, I gather this made in the region of €1.3 million profit, yet Irish Rail descided to axe it along with the bulk cement it seems.

Yes, I agree that Bulk Oil would most certainly be suited to rail. Running from Terminal - Reception terminal all by rail seems to be far more economic paying for 1/2 drivers and wagon maintence, rather than paying for 10-15 lorry driver's and their fuel on top of that.