Pilot training

MightyDucks

Hi all,

im looking into getting a pilot's licenceand have found that many colleges require you to have physcis and good maths. i didnt do physcis and my math results werent great. should i go back and get these results.

oh ya i did the pilot assesment course with the ptc and they said i did very well but i was told that that is easy enough.

Cheers

diverdriver

There's no point in going back to do them now. In any case, except for certain expensive flight schools and the military. There are no actual specified educational requirements before you can start training as a pilot. Certainly PTC don't. Neither do most others.

Being good at Maths can help and I suppose Physics. But frankly I wasn't great at Maths and never did Physics and I got through the pilot exams alright.

So don't waste your time going back for either of them. Flight schools are not colleges even though they like to call themselves colleges. They're commercial organisations who want you to spend your money with them. Pilot assessments can be tough in places like Oxford Aviation Academy because they only want suitable people on their courses so they can maintain their standards or they can be marketing exercises for the flight school. 'Look you passed our tough tests, you too can be a pilot'.

Your biggest problem will be getting the money together.

donkey balls

why pay PTC 100,000+ for a licence when you can get the same licence for around 65,000.

MightyDucks

Cheers,

Ya i was looking into that. i rang aib and they said id need 30k deposit. do you no if there is any other way

donkey balls

MightyDucks wrote: »

Cheers,

Ya i was looking into that. i rang aib and they said id need 30k deposit. do you no if there is any other way

get your class 1 medical done first before you start training there is another way of training its called modular you pay as you go along my mate did his ppl in florida came home then went to oxford to do full time ATPL that took about six months.once he passed the fourteen exams he headed back to the USA to hour building and CPL that took about six weeks he then did his multi before heading back to bristol to do his IR which he has since passed.
his licence will be the same as anyone else who trained at PTC dont belive the marketing speil that some schools use.
it took him just under two years to complete his training

diverdriver

You'll have to do a modular course anyway as you won't be accepted on an integrated course because they do have educational requirements. One thing, PTC are quite shameless in describing one of their course as 'integrated' when they really mean it's all the modules integrated into a full time course. Real integrated courses have very specific sequence of events, no private licence is issued for example and their usually is a six month ground school. Also you graduate with fewer hours. PTC's course is modular but costs as much as a real integrated course. Really it's a bit cheeky of them to do that on their website.

In any case, mightyducks you have no choice but to do a modular course. Save some of the money so you can pay Aer Arann or Ryanair to give you a job at the end of training.

Assuming they're hiring which hardly anyone is at the moment. It's a very bad time to start training. The industry is at rock bottom. That doesn't mean you won't get a job. It just means it will take longer. In the past you could be waiting five or six years. That could be the way again soon.

donkey balls

diverdriver wrote: »

You'll have to do a modular course anyway as you won't be accepted on an integrated course because they do have educational requirements. One thing, PTC are quite shameless in describing one of their course as 'integrated' when they really mean it's all the modules integrated into a full time course. Real integrated courses have very specific sequence of events, no private licence is issued for example and their usually is a six month ground school. Also you graduate with fewer hours. PTC's course is modular but costs as much as a real integrated course. Really it's a bit cheeky of them to do that on their website.

In any case, mightyducks you have no choice but to do a modular course. Save some of the money so you can pay Aer Arann or Ryanair to give you a job at the end of training.

Assuming they're hiring which hardly anyone is at the moment. It's a very bad time to start training. The industry is at rock bottom. That doesn't mean you won't get a job. It just means it will take longer. In the past you could be waiting five or six years. That could be the way again soon.

your spot on diver when i asked them about there 100,000 price i mentioned that you could do the whole lot for around 65k.
they dodge the questions like a politician when my mate went there one of the morketing/sales girl was in a white shirt with three bars on.
he asked her was she a pilot she changed the subject

jamiemcg85

Hi all!

I am wishing to start my pilot training in the new year. Was looking for advice on some Irish schools? Does anyone have any info on a school in Co. Cork called 'Atlantic Air'? Or maybe offer other suggestions.

Also if I train in Ireland and in the future ever want to move to the states, Canada or Australia, is it hard to transfer your licence?

Any help would be great!

jamie.

diverdriver

Atlantic air have a good reputation but they suffer like all Irish schools from the simple fact of being based in Ireland with all that implies in terms of weather and expense.

If you're talking about a private pilot's licence the process of getting a local licence is usually quite straightforward. They will issue one of theirs based on your Irish or European one after exchanging money and paperwork etc. It's very commonly done in fact. I have an American licence based on my PPL.

On the other hand if you're talking about a professional licence and ratings. It's also not particularly hard to transfer licences. In Europe under the JAA system between countries operating under the auspices of the JAA, it's just an exercise in fees and and paperwork.

I'm not up to speed on the requirements of the countries mentioned but they all have their own method. You may have to pass all their written exams, undergo some training and pass their flight tests unless you happen to be a highly experienced pilot. For example to do the reverse and to obtain an Irish/JAA on the basis of holding a foreign one. You will be expected to undergo a course of training for each rating you want and pass the flight tests. And of course pass all 14 written exams. That will take months.

I should add that if you think being a pilot is a good route to obtaining a visa to work in any of these countries. Then forget it. They have no shortage of pilots and no need to import them.

thesweeney

Atlantic in Cork are fantastic. Give them a call and arrange a visit.

Best thing to do is way up everything, cost, timeline, training schools. There is no such way as the perfect way to do your license, its whatever way suits you and your circumstances.

Flyer1

thesweeney wrote: »

Atlantic in Cork are fantastic. Give them a call and arrange a visit.

Best thing to do is way up everything, cost, timeline, training schools. There is no such way as the perfect way to do your license, its whatever way suits you and your circumstances.

x2 !

InTheTrees

jamiemcg85 wrote: »

Also if I train in Ireland and in the future ever want to move to the states, Canada or Australia, is it hard to transfer your licence?

I used my brit licence (ppl) to get a US licence.

All it took was passing a US Biannual flight review (which took a awhile because it was basically doing a US ppl course), but didnt require exams etc, then I went to a FAA office and they gave me my US ticket. Its not really a "transfer" because you keep your original licence.

A benefit is that in europe you'll have taken a RT Operators exam which they generally dont do in the US (i think).

The BFR is just a sign off from a flight instructor in your log book so it doesnt require formal exams, paperwork etc.

jarls

jamiemcg85 wrote: »

Hi all!

I am wishing to start my pilot training in the new year. Was looking for advice on some Irish schools? Does anyone have any info on a school in Co. Cork called 'Atlantic Air'? Or maybe offer other suggestions.

Also if I train in Ireland and in the future ever want to move to the states, Canada or Australia, is it hard to transfer your licence?

Any help would be great!

jamie.

HI Jamie
Best of luck with your training. A few things to consider. If you want to be an airline pilot you need an ATPL air transport pilots licence, if you want to fly a privately owned plane for reward you need a CPL commercial pilots licence, or just personal flights you need a PPL private pilots licence.

If you want o job with an airline they like to see continuity of training and can view people who buy training modules all over the place as a negative.

This is why you will see airline cadetship programs advertised via schools they are happy with and usually an integrated course although not always.

If you want fast track airline entry, get on to an integrated program recognized by any airline ( they have done industry standard reviews of these schools/ colleges, also look for schools that run other affiliated programs with various colleges etc again view this as an endorsement of training caliber. Airlines want the best trained candidates.
be very careful of buying your training on the cheap all over the world, there are stories of schools in the states selling hours below cost and allowing the plane tick over on the apron as the student sits inside and reads a book. Airline H.O.T.'s are aware of this and again follow their lead and money!

Thirdly the availability of residential integrated JAA courses or structured modular represent the best value by the time you add in ALL expenses they equate to the same as anything you can buy individually, and in the most efficient way possible. Where do airlines train their students on their mentored cadetship programs?

Transferring from Jaa to any other jurisdiction is relatively straight forward and in expensive by comparison to the other way round.

If you want an airline job train at a school offering integrated motored cadetships and try and get on one of these courses if not train on the same course and you will have an equivalent qualification as the mentored students (of which there are very few) and equally employable

If you want airline and can’t commit the time and or money train in a structured modular way at one of these schools again find one the airlines approve. And one that offers ALL modules up to and including MCC and JOC.

diverdriver

Ahem, been to an integrated flight school briefing lately by any chance?

A few things to consider. If you want to be an airline pilot you need an ATPL air transport pilots licence, if you want to fly a privately owned plane for reward you need a CPL commercial pilots licence, or just personal flights you need a PPL private pilots licence.

You don't need an ATPL to be an airline pilot, you need to have the exams done for most airlines. You need an ATPL to command an aircraft above a certain weight. You can be an airline pilot all your life without an ATPL. You'll just never make Captain.

If you want to fly any aircraft for reward. You need a CPL. Ultimately all non military aircraft are in fact private.

If you want o job with an airline they like to see continuity of training and can view people who buy training modules all over the place as a negative.

This is why you will see airline cadetship programs advertised via schools they are happy with and usually an integrated course although not always.

The first statement is correct but in practise most do train at one school, at least for the higher ratings. Mentored programs, I think you mean and yes they are often integrated but for example the PTC program for FlyBe was not integrated but modular. Just full time.

If you want fast track airline entry, get on to an integrated program recognized by any airline ( they have done industry standard reviews of these schools/ colleges, also look for schools that run other affiliated programs with various colleges etc again view this as an endorsement of training caliber. Airlines want the best trained candidates.

There are no fast tracks anymore if there ever was. Only mentored programmes are arguably fast track but with no job guarantees as several candidates have recently discovered. I'm guessing you got the rest from a recruiter in an integrated school. That's sales talk in order to get gullible people to stump up the massive money required to train on an integrated course rather than a modular course. A couple of airlines do have a preference. Most don't care.

be very careful of buying your training on the cheap all over the world, there are stories of schools in the states selling hours below cost and allowing the plane tick over on the apron as the student sits inside and reads a book. Airline H.O.T.'s are aware of this and again follow their lead and money!

Well that's a new one on me. Never heard of it. Why bother sitting in an aircraft reading a book. Why not just fake the hours. It's cheaper still. Again that sounds like a flight school recruiter scare story. Any pilot who tries that is soon found out. You cannot fake experience.

It is undeniable that training full time whether integrated or modular is the most efficient way of training. Your last bolded bit WHY SO BIG? is all very well but you really don't have to train at OAA/Cabair/FTE to be well trained and employable. There are three schools here in Ireland. All three have their faults but all have provided pilots to airlines around the world. The same is true of most long established flight school.

Don't be conned into paying too much money for the illusion of a 'fast track' into an airline job that either doesn't exist at the moment for low time graduates of any flight school.

Save your money for the type rating, so you can buy your job into Ryanair.

Cessna_Pilot

JARLS,

If ever there was a more obvious marketing plug you've just beaten it by a 6076 feet.

Atwork

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

JARLS,

If ever there was a more obvious marketing plug you've just beaten it by a 6076 feet.

Had to google that, Nice to learn something new;)

jarls

diverdriver wrote: »

Ahem, been to an integrated flight school briefing lately by any chance?

You don't need an ATPL to be an airline pilot, you need to have the exams done for most airlines. You need an ATPL to command an aircraft above a certain weight. You can be an airline pilot all your life without an ATPL. You'll just never make Captain.

If you want to fly any aircraft for reward. You need a CPL. Ultimately all non military aircraft are in fact private.

The first statement is correct but in practise most do train at one school, at least for the higher ratings. Mentored programs, I think you mean and yes they are often integrated but for example the PTC program for FlyBe was not integrated but modular. Just full time.

There are no fast tracks anymore if there ever was. Only mentored programmes are arguably fast track but with no job guarantees as several candidates have recently discovered. I'm guessing you got the rest from a recruiter in an integrated school. That's sales talk in order to get gullible people to stump up the massive money required to train on an integrated course rather than a modular course. A couple of airlines do have a preference. Most don't care.

Well that's a new one on me. Never heard of it. Why bother sitting in an aircraft reading a book. Why not just fake the hours. It's cheaper still. Again that sounds like a flight school recruiter scare story. Any pilot who tries that is soon found out. You cannot fake experience.

It is undeniable that training full time whether integrated or modular is the most efficient way of training. Your last bolded bit WHY SO BIG? is all very well but you really don't have to train at OAA/Cabair/FTE to be well trained and employable. There are three schools here in Ireland. All three have their faults but all have provided pilots to airlines around the world. The same is true of most long established flight school.

Don't be conned into paying too much money for the illusion of a 'fast track' into an airline job that either doesn't exist at the moment for low time graduates of any flight school.

Save your money for the type rating, so you can buy your job into Ryanair.

Agressive smart tone is not neccessery. WHY SO BIG is simply because i started the reponse in a word document and went back to a second time at which stage the font etc changed, So my appollogies for any confussion. to sum up all I was saying was Airlines run their mentored programmes through verious schools and not others. So spending a vast sum of money personaly i would follow the industry. Only my opion but I was under the illusion that these forums were for that purpose alone and not to allow individuals get off on the sight of their name in type. sorry but ill back out now and spend what little free time i have in more plesant enviornments. Excuse the typos hence the word format .

jarls

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

JARLS,

If ever there was a more obvious marketing plug you've just beaten it by a 6076 feet.

see responce to driverdriver same applies.. Marketing What?? common Sense / opinion.......?????

globemaster1986

Hi Folks, i'm new here, 23yr old college graduate. Have dreamed for as long as i can remember about being a pilot and i have been looking into it for quite some time now. I'm aware of the costs associated etc and of the pitfalls and the demands of the job. My difficulty is in choosing where to train. i would prefer a full time course rather than a modular one. I've looked at PTC and the other irish ones, was being hounded with phonecalls and emails by PTC recruiter even after an exhibition i attended. The link below is for a course i have come across. The price is €85000. The literature says you will obtain both FAA and JAA qualifications. Is this possible?

http://www.gestair.com/international-programmes/courses/abinitioUSA/en

It seems like a good course, but i would welcome any feedback?

Also, the class 1 medical is my next goal but i have a question on that. Is weight/BMI a factor for the medical? I have had conflicting info on this but was reassured when a rather short & portly chap i met at PTC exhibition had passed it (he was on the flybe cadetship at the time) and he said it didn't matter. Anyone any input?

donkey balls

globemaster there is allways going be a debate on the inter v mod training pros&cons etc.this is my take on it having worked for an airline i know two LTC who fly for FR both went down the modular route both while holding down a job in dubllin.
also at an interveiw you will asked questions on who you did your training with and did you pass your CPL/IR first time etc my mate who i worked with did his modular and was offered a job with a well known operator i even asked one of the snr capts which way should i train and he said modular.
a lot of these schools both intergrated&modular have slick websites/sales teams in place look around before departing with your hard earned cash as for joint FAA/JAA licence i never heard of people doing both especially if there working in europe.

as for the class1 bmi/weight factor you could allways ring the IAA but i have known one or two podgy pilots.

globemaster1986

Thanks Donkey! I'm not knocking the modular merely saying i favour integrated because i would prefer to train fulltime and get myself qualified and on the jobs merry-go-round etc sooner rather than later (which would be approx 18-24mths from now all going well!)...

I have spoken with a few pilots, one an FR training captain was advising me to go to Florida (after his preferred Air Corps option!) as it would be the quickest place to train due to weather etc

diverdriver

Globemaster, had a look at the website for that school. Now I know nothing about them but note that the course is carried out in Florida, Portugal and Spain. So I would advise caution. Certain Spanish integrated schools have got themselves a bad name. I would want to talk to former students first before committing to it. Having said that I haven't heard anything bad about them. Plus the price is quite high considering other options from other schools.

I also see no point in getting FAA licences and ratings. You are simply increasing your workload. Two sets of exams and flight tests. Unless you actually need FAA certification there's no point. Several US schools are CAA approved and you will come out of them fully JAA certified.

To me that course looks like a straightforward case of simply doing a full FAA Commercial/Multi/Ir and then travelling to Spain or Portugal and converting it to JAA via the standard process. Why not cut out the middleman and save money by going to a reputable US flight school. Get yourself all the FAA ratings and then come back to Ireland or go to Britain and do the JAA conversion courses. Both Atlantic and the NFC do quite a few of those. The CPL conversion is straightforward. The JAA Commercial flight test is considered easier than the FAA. It is. The Multi/IR is tougher but the conversion is mostly sim based so it's not so weather dependant.

Incidentally that is not an integrated course, it's modular. In fact it's not even modular. It's an FAA course followed by two conversion modules. Firstly to obtain a JAA CPL and then a Multi/IR. Their integrated course is entirely based in Europe.

It would be better to simply go to a JAA approved school in the States. One of those approved by the CAA.

Incidentally just to clear up any confusion out there an integrated course doesn't just mean full time. Integrated courses are very specifically structured and certified by the authorities. The most obvious difference is the lack of a PPL and lower total hours. Plus the ground school and exams are done up front before any flying.

A full time modular course includes the PPL followed by the ground school and exams. PTC very cheekily always marketed their full time modular course as 'integrated' and even call it an airline pilot programme with the final stage listed as 'Airline Interview'. Tell that to my friend who just finished the course and it wondering when his 'airline interview' is coming up. It isn't integrated, although I do believe they are in the process of actually putting a genuine integrated course in place.

So modular or integrated? It doesn't matter except to try and do it full time. If you can't, well that's too bad but it possible to do it while holding down a full time job to pay for it all. It's just not as easy or as quick. But I know many who've come down that route and got into the airlines. Back before the JAA, unless you got sponsorship. It was the only way. So most older pilots did it part time simply because there was no other option.

And Jarls, no need to get all upset. I not here to massage my massive ego. I like to think I'm helping future colleagues. Your post was riddled with errors and distortions which I tried to correct. As for the big writing. There is an edit function here. You can reset the font anytime. Word I might add also has a spell corrector. You need to develop a thicker skin if you're going to contribute to the internet. Whatever you don't go to PPRuNe:rolleyes:

globemaster1986

Diverdriver, thanks for your opinion on that course. That type of assesment is good because ot comes from someone in the indusrty rather than just the FTO themselves, who will always do their best to sell the course. Out of curiosity is there any particular ones you would recommend/suggest? Any opinions on FTE or CTC? Or any other good ones in Florida you know of? Any opinions on Flight Safety International in Vero Beach, PTC used to use them?

diverdriver

I would be wrong to make any recommendations as everything I would learned about them is hearsay. But all those mentioned have a good name. All of them do suffer from the problem everyone has now and that is the lack of jobs. Despite all their talk of placement there are few jobs out there right now and big competition for them.

Look beyond the glossy website that makes the whole thing look like an easy transition from school to airline.

Take at look at this thread in PPRuNe http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/401067-oxford-aviation-employment-statistics.html

A dose of reality. Note these figures from the first post:

112 got jobs.

of which;

71 - paid for TR with Ryanair
16 - on the netjets scheme (if they are actually flying!!!)
6 - Thomas Cook (was that through CTC)

Leaving only 19 who went to A N Other.

The absolute majority got into Ryanair but had to pay for their own type rating. Remember after paying for their overpriced integrated course which the website promised would open doors to the likes of BA and Aer Lingus. They ended up in Ryanair with the plebs who trained in Florida with the likes of OBA or whoever. The plebs of course are laughing because their debts are lower.

If you face the reality that you're going to end up in Ryanair no matter what, you might as well train in Ireland with a certain school who employ serving Ryanair pilots as Instructors and who have ex students and Instructors at all levels in Ryanair. I won't name names.

FidesEtRobur

It doesn't matter where you train.

Do your MCC with a well known provider at Dublin airport on the 737-200 or soon to be offered ATR72-500. Show potential and you'll get an assessmnent.

Network.

Try and judge your training to be finisheed when recrutiment picks up.

As one of the "plebs" who did each module in a different place, including OBA I was offered assessments/interviews with Aer Lingus. Ryanair, Aer Arann, and Cityjet on finishing training with the grand total of 230 hours. Albeit this was in 2007 at the peak of the cycle.

cuterob

did u get a job?

FidesEtRobur

Yes.

Not my first choice at the time, but my second choice. That was due to poor interview technique on my part and not where I trained.

In hindsight I think I'm fortunate how it worked out.

diverdriver

FidesEtRobur that's exactly it. Network and frankly you have to impress at interviews as you found out the hard way. I know several OBA graduates now happily working all over the place.

Networking is important particularly in Ireland. Get yourself known in a good way and it will count in your favour. A friend of mine mentioned my name at an interview and the interviewer knew of me. Which I think it good. But at least proves that networking works.

yaeger

Globemaster, If I could throw my view in the ring.... You shouldnt be in any rush at the moment, Finances is everything so plan carefully and do what your at now which is ask questions. My advice is modular training, ppl here or in states and then go to the UK for the commercials. Thats it really keep it simple, FAA route is a complete waste of time and dont let the FTO's tell you otherwise.

Blueskies.

jamiemcg85

Hi Guys and Girls,

Two questions for you!

I am looking to start my PPL in Atlantic Air flight school in Co. Cork. I am doing the moduler program (full time) and Looking to have my APTL between 16-18 months time.

Does anyone have any info re my choice of school. My uncle is very friendly with the present chief captain of Aer Lingus and when explaining to him that I was starting in Atlantic he was very concerned that if I trained there that I'd be lucky to get a job at all! He would prefer to see me in PTC Co. Waterford.

I Don't know if it's a genuine concern or just the snob factor? It exists in my opinion.

The second question I have is... I'm 24 and as I said I am starting my PPL in Co. Cork. I'm a qualified electrician by trade dropped out of school at the end of 5th year, meaning I have no Leaving Cert!

I know it won't be a problem getting into Ryanair or Aer Aran once I have my ATPL and the likes... But will it effect me getting into flagship carriers?? E.g Aer Lingus, British Airways??

Sorry for the essay!!

Regards,

Jamie

airvan

It's no secret that Aer Lingus and BA prefer to recruit inexperienced pilots from integrated courses at places like OAA and FTE. As neither are recruiting at the moment it's not particularly relevant. In any case as you say you have no leaving cert so you won't qualify for an integrated course at either of those places anyway. As someone pointed out earlier on this thread PTC's course isn't an actual official integrated course under the rules. They just mean it's full time. So I'm not sure it would count with Aer Lingus in any case.

It's probably snobbery, you get a lot of that. I've never heard a bad thing said about Atlantic which is more than can be said from a certain other school.

In any case you can join BA or Aer Lingus later when you are experienced if either of them still exist by the time Ryanair is finished with them.

It doesn't matter where you train. We're all going to end up in Ryanair or Aer Arran eventually. (I hope):P

yaeger

Airvan... You hope to fly for an airline that ensnares you contractually and financially, You hope to have any priviledge once regarded as standard taken from you or worse charged to you. You want to fly for airlines, Well fantastic but dont be so eager to join the race to the bottom, there have been and will be other options in the furture to gain your airline position.
Hoping to be part of what has become effectively a cancer on the flight crew quality of life and terms and conditions is well selling yourself a little short. All that glitters aint gold and all that sh1t !!

In short there are other options, all the best with your flying .
Bluskies

airvan

Well I was kind of favouring my local operator Aer Arran but I get your point. But the fact is that I am in fact at the bottom right now, contractually and financially. Ryanair would be a step up for me. If I was offered Ryanair, I would find it difficult to explain to my wife that I was turning it down on a moral principle. She knows that won't pay the mortgage.

In any case it's not just Ryanair is it? Short term contracts are in every industry at the moment. The race to the bottom is everywhere.

It's a moot point anyway as I'm not in a position to apply to any airline at the moment.

jarls

FYI i heard from a pal of mine that Aer arran gave a talk to some grads yesterday and that they were going to be recruiting for at least one new aircraft (10 fo's? he said ) very soon. Hope this helps you good luck

airvan

That's good news but I know of at least two guys in the holding pool who were offered places before the recession hit. There's probably more waiting too. I imagine they'll get first preference. But it is a good sign.

donkey balls

do aer arran not have the same kind of TR in place that FR do i.e pay for the rating yourself, the days of EI getting hiring cadets is well over.
i reckon in the future they might go down the FR way and get fATPL holders to pay for the TR or hire guys that have experience on type.

airvan

Yes, with one difference. They will pay you back the money if you stay with them long enough. What's clever about that is the fact that they know most junior pilots move on in a couple of years and probably pay Ryanair again for their TR.

Growler!!!

Aer Arann no longer pay back the type rating as they no longer have an issue with high turnover of staff. However the rating is now substantially cheaper as all training is done in house.

As to the 10 possible f/o's to be taken on - 3 have already been taken on for the IOM base. There are 8 further lads in the pool who were interviewed and sim checked back in '08. However they will have to be interviewed again.

Its not all doom and gloom thought as there may be further aircraft delivered late '10 or early '11.