Witches -the death of Bridget Cleary in 1894

CDfm

I found this interesting essay on belief of changelings in Europe


http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/changeling.html#13

EDit http://books.google.ie/books?id=lCG7i1Qm5mIC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=anne+roche+and+michael+leahy&source=bl&ots=97jClUG4Wo&sig=yX3R-VT94EegbjWYSe_cn5S7djg&hl=en&ei=q7MdS9bUG8WNjAewi6iQBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=anne%20roche%20and%20michael%20leahy&f=false

This link will bring you too an e book and on page 58 you will see details of a child killing of Michael Leahy in Cork in 1826 by his grandmother Anne Roche. The child was 4 and not able to speak so it may have been infanticide.Granny was aqquited.

There only seems to be those two such incidents in the 19th cetury in Ireland..

ocianain

meathstevie wrote: »

If you'd know the background of most witchcraft trials that have ever been conducted by the inquisition and other very savoury kangaroo courts in European history I think you'll find that jealousy combined with superstition, stupidity and often avarice have been the motivation for a lot of cruel deaths. Although Bridget Cleary hadn't been convicted of witchcraft in some sort of a "court" the likely motivation behind her death and the cruel nature of her murder is quite similar to what has been inflected on thousands of European women in the course of history.

Which Inquisition court burned witches? I'm not aware of one. Kamen dismisses as a myth that the Spanish Inquisition tried witches, he shows in fact that the Spanish Inquisitors regarded withes as mentally ill. The Roman Inquisition was even more benign that the Spanish. Which, no pun intended, Inquisition tried witches?

ocianain

Regarding violence in post famine Ireland see:

http://www.amazon.com/Melancholy-Accidents-Meaning-Violence-Post-Famine/dp/0739100076/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261345918&sr=1-2

The author shows quite convincingly that violence was lower in Ireland than in either Scotland or England. The book is full of anachronistic anecdotes (a stabbing victim pleading for the judge to go easy on his attacker, "...he was caught up in the moment e was, thats all, he didn't mean it."). Conley published another book on violence in Scotland and England, pretty much shows what we all know, the're much more violent than the Irish!

CDfm

Here is a link about fairy style crimes which is very interesting.

http://blogs.forteana.org/node/71

So the issue with the Bridget Cleary case was whether the guy they called in was a "fairy doctor" with the skills to reverse the swap and whether or whether they believed her to be a changeling.

Personally, I dont believe they honestly believed that to be the case and that they tried this as a defence. The jury didnt believe them and the judge didnt believe them.

Emme

CDfm wrote: »

They were also unusual in not having any children.

Would this have been grounds for a trumped-up charge of witchcraft against Bridget Cleary and a murder? Did her husband marry again and have children?

CDfm

Emme wrote: »

Would this have been grounds for a trumped-up charge of witchcraft against Bridget Cleary and a murder? Did her husband marry again and have children?

I dont think so.

The jury convicted and the judge believed it was an ordinary murder/manslaughter case so I dont think it was generally believed. I think her interest in folklore was dressed up as the changeling story and her husband escaped getting hanged.

AFAIK - he disappeared after leaving jail and is believed to have gone to Canada.

I will check to see what happened him.

Yahew

There is a massive amount of mis-representation of the Bridget Cleary case here. A witch killing it was not. The taken by the fariries myth probably was used to explain depression, or illness. When some one changes suddenly - their mood - an explanation is needed. The use of fire was to frighten the changeling away and bring the real person back, it was not normallly meant to kill. That would be pointless. Michael Clearly was probably trying to kill though, but in general the use of fire was not intended to. It probably did manage in some cases to "cure" the depression, to snap people out of it.

You took the gay child of my passion, and gave me your clod conceived.

The idea has hardly disappeared from legend or print. In Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell a woman is explicitly replaced by her doppelganger and taken by the fairies, gangers have turned up in Dr. Who.

A systematic village led witch hunt, this was not. The peasant class involved here would ahve been considered barely christian, and the myths were pre-Christian.

Not that witch-hunts are confined to Christianity, but this was not one.

Fuinseog

CDfm wrote: »

I came accross this historic crime site and up in there is a killing in Tipperary in 1894 of a woman Briget Cleary

http://www.laurajames.com/clews/2005/06/the_witchcraft_.html

there is a book on the subject. i even came across a tacky Irish american folk group called 'Burning bridget cleary'.

folks back then could not afford real doctors and electric shock treatment.

Fuinseog

CDfm wrote: »

You could say the same about homosexuals or indeed anyone who is a little bit different.

In her case she managed to get the best house in the village and had money and her hubby was a cooper. So they were both skilled workers.

It seems to me that she was very smart.

Looking up the 1911 census on ancestors these two were quite well off and near contemporaies of an ancient uncle of my dads who you wouldn't class as stupid or supersticious.

I don't buy into the folklore bit.

have we moved on? I read an interview with Colm Toibin where his family in the 1950s were going to bring him to hospital where the 'gay' part of his brain would be surgically removed.

Fuinseog

only outsiders would label Cleary a witch. Her relatives believed she was a siofra, a changeling. its not quite the same.
the fear feasa was given the task of exorcising her. outsiders find it bizarre, but exorcisms still take place in Ireland among Christians, but are rarely publicised. sometimes they end in tragedy

CDfm

Yahew wrote: »

There is a massive amount of mis-representation of the Bridget Cleary case here. A witch killing it was not. ...........................Not that witch-hunts are confined to Christianity, but this was not one.

I don't know the answer I picked up on the story and looked around for explanations.

A young woman got burnt to death and either the people believed the "changeling" theory or it was a type of cover up which the judge was inclined towards.

Fuinseog wrote: »

have we moved on? I read an interview with Colm Toibin where his family in the 1950s were going to bring him to hospital where the 'gay' part of his brain would be surgically removed.

In the 1950's lobotomy was flying around big time. It was seen as a cure all. The Hollywood actress Frances Farmer had one and I think one of the Kennedy's had one that went wrong and was hospitalized for life.

My father grew up on a farm and the concept of gay bulls and cows was something he was aware of from an early age. He says you learn a lot about sex growing up on a farm.

I think it is easy to judge back then with reference to the extremes. In 1932 DeValera looked for the repatriation of Roger Casement and the British made some noises about him being homosexual and DeV said the people like him.

So the cultural reference points are important.

The Colm Toibin story is about what happened to him and I grew up in a tolerant household and one of my parents friends was gay so my view is different.

I am not naive and people did emigrate because of their orientation and family acceptance so it.

It was a mixed bag.

CDfm

Fuinseog wrote: »

only outsiders would label Cleary a witch. Her relatives believed she was a siofra, a changeling. its not quite the same.
the fear feasa was given the task of exorcising her. outsiders find it bizarre, but exorcisms still take place in Ireland among Christians, but are rarely publicised. sometimes they end in tragedy

A good point and there is a "witchcraft" murder trial happening in the UK.

It is one of the possible explanations.

Yahew

I am pretty sure that she was murdered, and Michael was claiming to be scaring away the changling. However changlings weren't burnt to death in general, they were put to a fire to scare away the changling. It was a primitive way of fighting depression, I suppose.

It wasnt a witch killing.

pedroeibar1

CDfm wrote: »

I don't know the answer I picked up on the story and looked around for explanations.

A young woman got burnt to death and either the people believed the "changeling" theory or it was a type of cover up which the judge was inclined towards.

This book on the 'burning' got a very good review in the Tipp Hist Journal when it was published http://www.amazon.com/Burning-Bridget-Cleary-True-Story/dp/0141002026

CDfm wrote: »

I think it is easy to judge back then with reference to the extremes. In 1932 DeValera looked for the repatriation of Roger Casement and the British made some noises about him being homosexual and DeV said the people like him.
So the cultural reference points are important.
It was a mixed bag.

As for tolerance of homosexuals, what about McLiamoir & Hilton? Leaving the Abbey one evening, holding hands, a Dublin gurrier calls out 'Hey Mister, are youse getting married?' Michail: 'Certainly not, dear boy, he's a Protestant'.
P.

CDfm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

As for tolerance of homosexuals, what about McLiamoir & Hilton? Leaving the Abbey one evening, holding hands, a Dublin gurrier calls out 'Hey Mister, are youse getting married?' Michail: 'Certainly not, dear boy, he's a Protestant'.
P.

Priceless.

CDfm

I once gave gay ireland a shot as a topic

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056206669

Odds and sods I had come across.

snafuk35

Have you ever considered that the Fairies do exist?

This delightful man called Eddie Lenihan definitely believes they do and he tells spine chilling tales:

The Fairies aren't the gentle little pixies or gentle leprauchans of popular lore.

Oh no! If you make them cross with you, then you are in trouble!

dubhthach

Eddie is a legend. RTÉ had him on their TV program about Lúnasa (Lughnasa) and he pulled no punches. Basically said Irish people aren't interested in listening to story tellers anymore. Que Gráinne Seoige cutting away from him as quickly as possible.

Here he is on Cogar shown in TG4 back in 2007

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eSgC6DJ09Q

snafuk35

Lenihan will raise the hairs on the back of your neck.

The weasels are worse than the fairies:

carolinej

Reading "The burning of Bridget Cleary" now, good read so far

CDfm

carolinej wrote: »

Reading "The burning of Bridget Cleary" now, good read so far

Really , a controversial book.

I am stuck with Michael Cleary got away with murder.

So I will be waiting CSI Clonmel .

Nitochris

CDfm wrote: »

Really , a controversial book.

I am stuck with Michael Cleary got away with murder.

So I will be waiting CSI Clonmel .

Have you tried The Cooper's Wife is Missing the other book on the subject, it goes in for a lot of what you could call scene setting, arguably including irrelevant material. It was written after Burning so it is able to debate some points, (not whether it was murder if I recall).

EDIT and just after typing the above I remember that there is a book by Pauline Prior which looks at (other) fairy deaths in relation to the system of insanity, after reading it I was convinced Cleary was going for an insanity defense but if Ireland's asylum system was anything like Colney Hatch this would not have been seen an easy option.

Fuinseog

CDfm wrote: »

Really , a controversial book.

I am stuck with Michael Cleary got away with murder.

So I will be waiting CSI Clonmel .

he served ten years in gaol, so he did not quite get away with it. I am not sure if you read about the Satanic ritual slaying in Dublin 1974, but the culprit only got seven years. both of these cases were not quite run of the mill murders and hard to know what to do in such cases.

CDfm

I think this is the one I read The Cooper's Wife is Missing when I was on a break in Trim years ago. I knew the story vaguely and heard it and saw the house in my teens.

Pauline Prior has written some great stuff and her articles and books gave me a great insight. Well researched and well written.

CDfm

Fuinseog wrote: »

he served ten years in gaol, so he did not quite get away with it. I am not sure if you read about the Satanic ritual slaying in Dublin 1974, but the culprit only got seven years. both of these cases were not quite run of the mill murders and hard to know what to do in such cases.

The 1970's justice system.I am always shocked at murders and when I did this and the crime thread was that I was jaded of reading that Irish people were saintly people and real crime was airbrushed out.

herisson

This is a very interesting topic!
i studied it in my first year of college and found it fascinating!
RTE did a documentary on it years ago....i remember watching it in college
my lecturer brought it into us it was very interesting!
might see if she still has a copy of it that she uses for the first years!

carolinej wrote: »

Reading "The burning of Bridget Cleary" now, good read so far

The book is so good i might read it again!

CDfm

Pixie-Fairy wrote: »

This is a very interesting topic!
i studied it in my first year of college and found it fascinating!
RTE did a documentary on it years ago....i remember watching it in college
my lecturer brought it into us it was very interesting!
might see if she still has a copy of it that she uses for the first years!

What subject is it taught under ?

The book is so good i might read it again!

And what do you make of it all ?

herisson

CDfm wrote: »

What subject is it taught under ?


And what do you make of it all ?

its taught under English! From what can remember it was Big House Fiction.

i think it was an interesting case!
to be honest i think Michael was crazy!
he clearly was not right in the head and i am aware that back then there was a belief in changelings but is that really enough of a defense for killing your wife??
it is murder no matter what way you look at it!
its hard to say what actually happened!
my theory is that maybe he was threatened by her independence!
she had her own sewing machine and worked as a dressmaker, she had her own chickens. she was essentially an independent woman!
maybe he believed she should be at home all the time and this just pushed him over the edge!

even the events surrounding her death are horrifying!
She was held down and force fed a concoction by the local doctor to rid her of the changelings and she was burned to death! Her brothers were involved with this also!

my facts may be slightly off as i studied this back in 2009!
but i can remember most of it!
ill just have to read back up about this after im finished with all this work i have to do!

Yahew

I think he was using a changeling defence, not that that would have worked, but he wanted to kill her.

CDfm

Pixie-Fairy wrote: »

its taught under English! From what can remember it was Big House Fiction.

Really, under fiction.

Though trying to find Irish murder stories is hard.

i think it was an interesting case!
to be honest i think Michael was crazy!
he clearly was not right in the head and i am aware that back then there was a belief in changelings but is that really enough of a defense for killing your wife??
it is murder no matter what way you look at it!

I think it is murder to.If you heard something like it today you would think lots or drink or drugs.

Personal opinion.


I did a crime thread and the only similar thing i came across was this of a woman killing her husband.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69312246&postcount=70