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M1 needs 3rd lane

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭Redsoxfan


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    I have no problem with people's right to drive. I just think they should pay for it, and pay a tad more than the other person sitting in a bus.

    How much is a 'tad more'?

    I live in Maynooth and work in Sandyford, so public transport isn't really a feasible option unless I want to double my travel time.

    But let's just say I worked in the city centre and was lucky enough to have parking (for which I may or may not have to pay €200 a year under the Budget 2009 rules)

    This year, I have paid the following:
    • Motor Tax €620
    • Insurance €450
    • Diesel €1,680

    or €2,750 in total. (ignoring depreciation and maintenance costs)

    My wife has an annual tax saver ticket (short hop bus and rail) which costs €1,190 (before allowing for benefit of tax and PRSI relief).

    So if I wanted to drive to work in the city centre, I would be paying nearly 5 times the after tax cost of using public transport, or nearly 2.5 times the gross cost (not everyone is lucky enough to benefit from the taxsaver scheme).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    It is a huge debate, with so many angles, many of which come back to the state the country finds itself in today, the national debt, people living in commuter towns miles out of the city, the road network, the neglect of the railway, years and years of government ineptitude, capped by ten years of Bertieism.

    At least it is good to remember it could even be a whole lot worse. Thank God we don't seem to have the kind of people who would seriously suggest filling the tunnel with cars, for example, there is still a semblance of sense in the corridors of power.

    I will never forget Olivia Mitchell of Fine Gael before one of Bertie's supersaver elections, telling us all that if Fine Gael were elected, they would let carpoolers use the bus lanes, with absolutely no thought as to how that would be policed, or what the advantages might be, other than as a soundbite to woo commuter town BMW driving voters.

    So, bad as it is, we could be a lot worse off! Be careful what you wish for! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭Praetorian


    HydeRoad, your attitude is terrible. All negativity and not a single good idea of your own.

    I'm not saying the tunnel should be full of cars, but it should be priced so that it carrys more traffic than it does currently. As it stands, building it as a two lane road (two tunnels) was a waste of money, because there is never enough trucks going through it to need that much capacity.

    Irish motorists aren't good motorway drivers, I'll give you that one, but at peak times on the M1 it's not a major factor. There is just too much traffic for the road.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    Redsoxfan wrote: »
    How much is a 'tad more'?

    Well, the fact is, that even most habitual bus users have a car parked at home for weekends, etc. so they are all paying exactly the same bills. In fact, if the private motorist uses his car for his weekly commute, while he is doing what makes economic sense for him personally, he is actually better off than the person who pays for a car for weekend and social use, yet leaves it at home and gets the bus to work.

    I still believe the balance is wrong. There is too much carrot to take the car to work, and congest up the city for those who really need the roads.

    How somebody lives in Maynooth and works in Sandyford, to take your example, or say someone living in Gorey and working in Dublin, well that is a question rooted in how this economy was managed over ten years of Bertie and before, and why such an unsustainable system was allowed to grow to the point it is at now. How do you right that? Well, how do you right the economy? It's really a case of, 'I wouldn't start from here...'


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,712 ✭✭✭Praetorian


    I'm all for Metro North which definitely will be beneficial for North Co Dublin and I would also be well up for a major overhaul of the Drogheda / Dublin rail link. An extra 1 or 2 tracks would increase passenger capacity dramactically. Metro north may happen, but the extra tracks are a long time off, if they ever happen. The road needs to be done.

    It takes me an hour and 40 minutes to get to work by public transport. Wheras up until the last year or so, the m1 got me to work in about 35 minutes. (currently about an hour).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 495 ✭✭HydeRoad


    Praetorian wrote: »
    HydeRoad, your attitude is terrible. All negativity and not a single good idea of your own.

    I'm not saying the tunnel should be full of cars, but it should be priced so that it carrys more traffic than it does currently. As it stands, building it as a two lane road (two tunnels) was a waste of money, because there is never enough trucks going through it to need that much capacity.

    Irish motorists aren't good motorway drivers, I'll give you that one, but at peak times on the M1 it's not a major factor. There is just too much traffic for the road.

    Ha ha, of course I am negative! The whole system is mad, totally unsustainable! And being fed by people who would fill more cars into the tunnel?

    Look, if the M1 is jammed all the way back to the Skerries turnoff, and some of that traffic is bound for the M50, and some for the city, besides the fact that soon there will be new freeflow junctions in place, are you really suggesting that more of that jam should be allowed flow into the tunnel? And then what? Down to the traffic lights on East Wall Road? What does that do, only move the jam to a different place, and create a safety issue in the tunnel itself? Besides encouraging trucks back onto the city quays?

    You aren't making any better suggestions than I am. I am at a loss for suggestions quite frankly, but I cannot stand back and see people make suggestions that will leave us even worse off.

    If just some of the people who sit in these jams day in, day out, would consider using public transport, then public transport would have the impetus to grow, and even provide more travelling options. But most private motorists are only interested in options that will allow them to stay in their warm cars, and somehow skip past everyone else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,324 ✭✭✭Redsoxfan


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    Well, the fact is, that even most habitual bus users have a car parked at home for weekends, etc. so they are all paying exactly the same bills.

    Tax and insurance, most likely yes, but not fuel. If you wanted to add in maintenance and depreciation, the cost for the car commuter will outweigh those for the occasional car user.

    Anyway, looks like the Dutch have been reading this thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    HydeRoad wrote: »
    No, no, no, no, no, we do NOT have the culture of road craft and respect for the law in this country to facilitate this. When the M50 jams up to the point of not moving, and a truck zooms past in the 'hard shoulder,' the world and it's mother will pile in after it, unquestioned. It already happens. On the M1 last Saturday evening, there was an accident, and everything southbound was stopped for miles, and idiots were not only using the hard shoulder, but they were storming up the inside of lines of stopped cars at 120kph plus. This is beyond danger, this is absolute madness. They should be jailed. What if a car door opened, or a car pulled into the hard shoulder, or as happened, a car was stopped in the hard shoulder in complete darkness with no lights or advance warning?

    Too many people propose solutions whereby they might be able to bypass all the other stopped traffic, and thereby not have to queue. Don't you see, if you are entitled to 'skip' the queue, then so is everybody else, and you end up with just another line of traffic jam?

    The hard shoulder is the only access emergency vehicles have to clear obstructions and access accidents. You want to fill it up with more cars.

    Absolutely right. I know it's a sweeping generalization, but it's true - the majority of Irish drivers are too simple-minded and some just too downright stupid to have any respect for this sort of a measure and it would be abused to the hilt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    20,000,000+ passengers passing through Dublin Airport every year, all getting to/from the Airport by road. Shameful really and an alternative method of transport to/from the airport is long overdue. Hopefully Metro North will be built sooner rather than later.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,792 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    HydeRoad wrote: »

    I will never forget Olivia Mitchell of Fine Gael before one of Bertie's supersaver elections, telling us all that if Fine Gael were elected, they would let carpoolers use the bus lanes, with absolutely no thought as to how that would be policed, or what the advantages might be, other than as a soundbite to woo commuter town BMW driving voters.

    I agree with you on this, but have you seen anywhere a proper explanation of why this would be a bad idea and wouldn't work? This particular myth was never properly debunked.

    Antoin.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    I agree with you on this, but have you seen anywhere a proper explanation of why this would be a bad idea and wouldn't work? This particular myth was never properly debunked.

    Antoin.

    In my experience the bus lanes are already too crowded with taxis and buses, then you have cyclists, motorcyclists etc. Adding people with more than 2 people in the car to this would cease to be an incentive if very many people took it up.

    Taxis need to be banned from the bus lanes if they have no fare in the car tbh. (The majority also need to pass another driving test but that's a different thread)

    The only solution to this nightmare on our roads is Metro North and West. The government needs to make priority #1 Welfare, #2 Education, #3 Transport and just get the bloody things built NOW NOW NOW. The banks might not collapse overnight if we dont bail them out; they will if nobody can get to bloody work to drive the economy ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,792 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    But is there modeling, statistics, international comparisons?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    The simple truth is that everyone would pile into those lanes, with one driver and no passengers. Since there is a culture of not enforcing laws, they would just get away with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    But is there modeling, statistics, international comparisons?

    Three of the largest wastes of time and money. Fúck paying private enterprise millions or even tens of millions to do studies and plans and test-boring and other red-tape activities, just figure out what we need (my 2 year old cousin could do that) and then bloody well build it (he could probably have a decent go at that part, too)...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The only thing I would do is build an eastbound M50 to airport direct slip to reduce Airport bound merges to the M1 from the M50 .

    None of the rest of it is a priority at all compared to the dismal state of the roads outside Dublin . Come back to it in the 2020s when an outer orbital is envisaged and forget about it in the meantime and take the train or express bus instead if it bothers you :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The only thing I would do is build an eastbound M50 to airport direct slip to reduce Airport bound merges to the M1 from the M50

    Ther's a fairly direct slip M50N->M1N already, it splits in two. The problem is that the main merge (the right hand one) is far too short and slows everyone down, or forces mainline M1N traffic into the overtaking lane.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Then the need another one for M1 north to Airport about here

    http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=53.433908&lon=-6.213177&zoom=18

    and ban exiting from M1 to Airport at that junction, far to close to the M50 .


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    The short merges from M50 to M1N and M1E to M1N cause congestion because you can't merge in your own good time at a proper motorway speed.

    Also THere should be an auxilliary lane from the M1E/M1N junction to the Holywell exit and vice versa. the 3stripemarker is before the on slip from Holywell to M1S ends so it's not a huge distance.

    Also another mistake was making the M1S 3 lanes just before the M1E->M1S junction. the third lane should start at the onramp so those cars don't have to merge immediately in another short merge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,588 ✭✭✭Bluetonic


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Then the need another one for M1 north to Airport about here

    http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=53.433908&lon=-6.213177&zoom=18

    and ban exiting from M1 to Airport at that junction, far to close to the M50 .
    Jesus, Yahoo could do with updating their maps. The M1 north of J2 isn't even finished in these maps, circa 2003.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,792 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    It's not the exits off the motorway that cause the congestion as much as the entrances onto it, as I understand it. The congestion often backs up from the entrance to the exit, and that's why it seems like the congestion is caused by the exit. But it isn't necessarily.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    It's not the exits off the motorway that cause the congestion as much as the entrances onto it, as I understand it. The congestion often backs up from the entrance to the exit, and that's why it seems like the congestion is caused by the exit. But it isn't necessarily.

    No, it is, too. For example the M1 southbound slip to the N/M32-M50 junction remains clogged to the gills. It's nigh on impossible to merge into the M1S-city lanes from the airport interchange at peak.

    Thought someone said those slips at the N32-M50-M1 junction were open? Closed firmly anytime I've passed since (daily).


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,792 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Well, the m1/m50 issue is a different issue - the junction is just overloaded to bits and needs to be upgraded.

    If it is difficult to get onto the motorway, then every vehicle that does get on is also causing congestion on the motorway itself, which cascades backwards. Maybe they need longer slips? I don't know the junction well enough at peak times to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R


    Did I hear something on the radio this morning that its now freeflow from the M1 Southbound to the M50 southbound. Not sure if I misheard it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    M1S>M50S freeflow slip was open according to the electronic signage this morning though I didnt see any vehicles on the bridge itself, only queueing, hopefully just a little hiccup.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,528 ✭✭✭dcr22B


    It was open this morning and traffic was going over it at 8.30am this morning while we were commuting into the city centre.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,233 ✭✭✭sdanseo




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Was on the M1 this morning and the M1 South to M50 South connector (Turnapin) was open alright, but the traffic at Lissenhall was horrendous - both the M1 South and R132 South were bumper to bumper - both leading into and coming out of the interchange that is - yes, 4 solid lanes of traffic inbound. The Malahide Viaduct re-opening seems to have made no difference at all. That said, once past the Estuary Roundabout, there's no real traffic problems on the R132 - Fingal CC has plans for a Southbound bus lane (a reconstructed hard shoulder on the R132) from the Tesco Roundabout (South of Blakes Cross) to the Estuary Roundabout - here's the link:

    http://www.fingalcoco.ie/Roads/QualityBusCorridorsQBCs/ProposedBusQBCNthofSwords/

    Also, a third lane on the M1 from Lissenhall is badly needed. However, we need that R132 bus lane now!

    Regards!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    The only thing I would do is build an eastbound M50 to airport direct slip to reduce Airport bound merges to the M1 from the M50 .

    None of the rest of it is a priority at all compared to the dismal state of the roads outside Dublin . Come back to it in the 2020s when an outer orbital is envisaged and forget about it in the meantime and take the train or express bus instead if it bothers you :)

    This morning, I saw some vergeside excavation on the M1 North (J1 to J2) - maybe they're are doing something along the lines of what you're suggesting - wouldn't hold my breath though!

    Regards!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    It would help too if all trains heading into Dublin in the morning from the north were 8 cars and not 4 or 6 because IE can't do fleet management. Slots at that time are precious and they should be maximised.


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