End of Religion

Hellm0

So I've been thinking recently, will religion ever die out? Growing up in Ireland during the 90's and 2000's, I saw how money and consumerism more or less destroyed Catholicism. A quick chat with my grandparents(who have now passed on) always used to highlight this for me, the devout subjects they were.

Of course capitalism alone cannot get all the glory for bringing us that one step further out of the stone age, but I fully believe that as a society becomes more educated and wealthy, superstition must decline. My only question is, will we ever be completely rid of it? And how long until we are?

Turtwig

Given that we have biological prediposition to believe and that religious church goers people tend to have lower mortality rates*.
Religion is going to be here for a long time to come.


*These surveys are a little dubious though*

Hellm0

Malty_T wrote: »

Given that we have biological prediposition to believe and that religious church goers people tend to have lower mortality rates*.
Religion is going to be here for a long time to come.


*These surveys are a little dubious though*

This is an unfortunate truth. If we make the assumption that poor people are also more likely to be religious then this becomes even more of a problem. Poor people have larger families:(

doctoremma

Hellm0 wrote: »

My only question is, will we ever be completely rid of it? And how long until we are?

If you follow the arguments of Dawkins (and I admit I find this one fairly persuasive), religion is a byproduct of our psychology. We might be "fitter" as individuals if we obey authority. In evolutionary terms, this means that when your mother tells you not to eat something because it's dangerous, you do so unquestioningly. In society, this means that children are very mouldable.

If you put an end to all religion right now, I don't think it would be too long before it popped up again.

Turtwig

doctoremma wrote: »

If you put an end to all religion right now, I don't think it would be too long before it popped up again.

It probably wouldn't be as stupid though.

liamw

doctoremma wrote: »

If you follow the arguments of Dawkins (and I admit I find this one fairly persuasive), religion is a byproduct of our psychology. We might be "fitter" as individuals if we obey authority. In evolutionary terms, this means that when your mother tells you not to eat something because it's dangerous, you do so unquestioningly. In society, this means that children are very mouldable.

If you put an end to all religion right now, I don't think it would be too long before it popped up again.

Given it is our natural predisposition to want to believe in the supernatural, I think Religion as it is currently defined may more or less die out but superstition and irrational belief will continue in my opinion.

ChocolateSauce

I think that as along as we exist, there will be religion.

fitz0

Malty_T wrote: »

It probably wouldn't be as stupid though.

Really? One of the newer religions, also one of the faster growing ones, is Scientology. Times may change but religions stay as nutty as ever.

GLaDOS

Can't see religion ever dying out, however I do hope that atheism/agnosticism becomes a lot more prominant and accepted

Sea Sharp

I'd also say it'll never completely die out completly.
Looking at the current generation. It seems to me that the vast majority of people under 35 really couldn't care less about religion.
When this age group are in their 50s and running the world then we might finally see an overwhelming percentage of the western world being atheists. (I'm also hoping that the sensible act of marijuanna legalisation will be on the cards then )
I'd say the middle east will take 30 - 50 more years to adapt. Religion really has a firm hold on the population in those areas.

2025 - 2035 = death of christianity (for all practical purposes).

Turtwig

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Can't see religion ever dying out, however I do hope that atheism/agnosticism becomes a lot more prominant and accepted

Well according to Dan Dennett,
Atheism is a chick magnet.

I don't see how that could possibly lose prominence.

GLaDOS

Malty_T wrote: »

Well according to Dan Dennett,
Atheism is a chick magnet.

I don't see how that could possibly lose prominence.

And any chicks you get with religion probably won't be much use anyway :pac:

Flamed Diving

Well according to recent polls, approx 107% of people in this country believe in God.

So, it's not very likely to happen, kid. Sorry.

nozzferrahhtoo

Apparently part of our evolution was to develop a habit to look for the “intention” in everything.

Why this would be of survival benefit is clear. If a rock suddenly falls, or a shadow suddenly moves, it is better to think “Who is that, what did they do that for and what do they want with me” before anything else. Explanations involving intentional deliberate action will always come to us before anything else.

It is a bit of a truism that one rarely mistakes an attacker for a shadow, but we often mistake shadows for attackers.

As long as this aspect of our nature is true, I cannot see any way to hope that people are not going to look out on the world itself and think “Who did this, what is it for, and what do they want with me?” and as long as they think that religion is going to be with us.

pinksoir

As soon as the oil and gas starts to run out and civilization as we know it begins to crumble, many people will turn back to religion. Future generations will look back at our age as one of enlightenment and unparalleled prosperity, culture, and freedom. It is a bleak but entirely realistic outlook.

We will revert to a religiosity comparable to that of the age following the fall of Rome. Religion offers so much comfort to those with tough lives, atheism is very much one of the luxuries of the industrial and technological age. This age is drawing to a close, it will be nothing but a blip in human history, and this brief period of reason and rationality will appear to have been the closest we got to utopia, however fleeting.

Grimly enough, all this will probably begin happening in this century. So, no, we won't see the end of religion any time soon...

Flamed Diving

pinksoir wrote: »

As soon as the oil and gas starts to run out and civilization as we know it begins to crumble, many people will turn back to religion. Future generations will look back at our age as one of enlightenment and unparalleled prosperity, culture, and freedom. It is a bleak but entirely realistic outlook.

We will revert to a religiosity comparable to that of the age following the fall of Rome. Religion offers so much comfort to those with tough lives, atheism is very much one of the luxuries of the industrial and technological age. This age is drawing to a close, it will be nothing but a blip in human history, and this brief period of reason and rationality will appear to have been the closest we got to utopia, however fleeting.

Grimly enough, all this will probably begin happening in this century. So, no, we won't see the end of religion any time soon...

L:DL

pinksoir

Flamed Diving wrote: »

L:DL

Funny cos it's true.

Hellm0

pinksoir wrote: »

As soon as the oil and gas starts to run out and civilization as we know it begins to crumble, many people will turn back to religion. Future generations will look back at our age as one of enlightenment and unparalleled prosperity, culture, and freedom. It is a bleak but entirely realistic outlook.

We will revert to a religiosity comparable to that of the age following the fall of Rome. Religion offers so much comfort to those with tough lives, atheism is very much one of the luxuries of the industrial and technological age. This age is drawing to a close, it will be nothing but a blip in human history, and this brief period of reason and rationality will appear to have been the closest we got to utopia, however fleeting.

Grimly enough, all this will probably begin happening in this century. So, no, we won't see the end of religion any time soon...

Over my dead bo...Oh wait.

Flamed Diving

pinksoir wrote: »

Funny cos it's true.

Tell it to someone more gullible, Nostradamous.

L:eek:L

pinksoir

What the... who told y... oh. I see.

But seriously. Gonna happen.

Hellm0

pinksoir wrote: »

What the... who told y... oh. I see.

But seriously. Gonna happen.

Meh, hopefully the bulk of them will think its the rapture and "take care" of themselves, leaving us to party with whats left!

Flamed Diving

pinksoir wrote: »

What the... who told y... oh. I see.

But seriously. Gonna happen.

Whatever you say, Senor Malthus.

Turtwig

Hellm0 wrote: »

Meh, hopefully the bulk of them will think its the rapture and "take care" of themselves, leaving us to party with whats left!

They'd be more inclined to attempt to "purge" us first though.:(

pinksoir

That's Mr. Malthus to you.

Whatever, don't believe me. But don't go asking me for a space in my bunker, or for any of my canned goods* that I stocked up on when the time comes.

*beans mostly.

Hellm0

Malty_T wrote: »

They'd be more inclined to attempt to "purge" us first though.:(

Hmm you make a fine point. Maybe if I grow my hair/beard out, start wearing white robes and take up carpentry....

ShooterSF

pinksoir wrote: »

That's Mr. Malthus to you.

Whatever, don't believe me. But don't go asking me for a space in my bunker, or for any of my canned goods* that I stocked up on when the time comes.

*beans mostly.

A bunker with canned beans as the staple diet? No thanks I'd rather be cleansed than gassed to death...

robindch

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Well according to recent polls, approx 107% of people in this country believe in God.

Think I saw that one -- wasn't it from the Iona Institute's latest report?

pinksoir

ShooterSF wrote: »

A bunker with canned beans as the staple diet? No thanks I'd rather be cleansed than gassed to death...

Suit yourself.

Zamboni

pinksoir wrote: »

As soon as the oil and gas starts to run out and civilization as we know it begins to crumble, many people will turn back to religion. Future generations will look back at our age as one of enlightenment and unparalleled prosperity, culture, and freedom. It is a bleak but entirely realistic outlook.

We will revert to a religiosity comparable to that of the age following the fall of Rome. Religion offers so much comfort to those with tough lives, atheism is very much one of the luxuries of the industrial and technological age. This age is drawing to a close, it will be nothing but a blip in human history, and this brief period of reason and rationality will appear to have been the closest we got to utopia, however fleeting.

Grimly enough, all this will probably begin happening in this century. So, no, we won't see the end of religion any time soon...

I don't think you're too far off the mark at all.
I'm thinking amish communities, big farms with hydro electric powered i-pods and lots of mass. Strangely appealing and repulsive at the same time.
Anyhow, I don't see religion going anywhere any time. Still doesn't make it true though
Ps: I'm thinking salmon rather than beans. It's all about the protein.

pinksoir

Zamboni wrote: »

I don't think you're too far off the mark at all.
I'm thinking amish communities, big farms with hydro electric powered i-pods and lots of mass. Strangely appealing and repulsive at the same time.
Anyhow, I don't see religion going anywhere any time. Still doesn't make it true though
Ps: I'm thinking salmon rather than beans. It's all about the protein.

I've been reading a lot about peak oil lately and all malthusian joking aside, a more localised, farming based social structure seems like a very real eventuality. In fact, you're spot on with the Amish thang; they've been sited as examples of how communities will be organised after cheap supplies of oil and gas are no longer available to the world at large.

You bring the salmon, I'll bring the beans, and we'll get someone to hook us up with some of those 'roast chicken in a can'



*licks chops*

Zillah

pinksoir wrote: »

As soon as the oil and gas starts to run out and civilization as we know it begins to crumble, many people will turn back to religion. Future generations will look back at our age as one of enlightenment and unparalleled prosperity, culture, and freedom. It is a bleak but entirely realistic outlook.

We will revert to a religiosity comparable to that of the age following the fall of Rome. Religion offers so much comfort to those with tough lives, atheism is very much one of the luxuries of the industrial and technological age. This age is drawing to a close, it will be nothing but a blip in human history, and this brief period of reason and rationality will appear to have been the closest we got to utopia, however fleeting.

Grimly enough, all this will probably begin happening in this century. So, no, we won't see the end of religion any time soon...

Actually, professional opinion is that there are still massive amounts of oil available, but that they will only become economically viable with future extraction technologies. We have seen a solid trend of reserve underestimations in decades gone past, and time and time again those estimates get brought up again, often hundreds of times over the original estimate. We quite possibly have centuries of oil left. All estimates on how much oil is left are based on current technologies, which is a method that consistently shows itself to be meaningless.

There is also the fact that there are plenty of alternatives, such as nuclear, wind, solar, wave and bio. Combine that with the entrepreneurial spirit of capitalism and we see that it will lead to these becoming more prominent as oil becomes too expensive. The doomsayers of today or no more accurate than the doomsayers of yesterday.

Sea Sharp

Actually, professional opinion is that there are still massive amounts of oil available, but that they will only become economically viable with future extraction technologies. We have seen a solid trend of reserve underestimations in decades gone past, and time and time again those estimates get brought up again, often hundreds of times over the original estimate. We quite possibly have centuries of oil left. All estimates on how much oil is left are based on current technologies, which is a method that consistently shows itself to be meaningless.

There is also the fact that there are plenty of alternatives, such as nuclear, wind, solar, wave and bio. Combine that with the entrepreneurial spirit of capitalism and we see that it will lead to these becoming more prominent as oil becomes too expensive. The doomsayers of today or no more accurate than the doomsayers of yesterday.

What he said. ^

pinksoir, you seem to be under the impression that society is suddenly going to revert to how it was before science and logical thinking removed the need for religion. That aont gonna happen.
The 'peak oil' scare mongering, (and more importantly your proposed consequences of such a scenario) are analogous to somebody in the early 20th century claiming that the world is going to revert to pre-industrial revolution times because of X.
The logical reasoning for not believing in god is now out there for all to see, and it's not going away any time soon.

Piriz

Societies will become more liberal, as in Ireland the church has lost its hold on the state. No longer is it frowned upon to not attend mass and its socially acceptable to declare yourself as atheist. Atheists will not raise their children as religious and the snowball effect will take place. The scientific understanding of evolution holds more weight with a society of non-religious upbringing than the theory of god & creationisn etc..Academics and intellectuals in the public domain regularly dismiss creationism and support evolution/Darwinism etc. These are the people who will write the future and even those with religious upbringings will identify with the scientific logic applied in evolution theories..this is what has already changed many with religious upbringings to atheist and this is set to continue.. Once the seed of evolution theory is planted its difficult to dismiss. A more liberal and informed world is emerging and with this the evolution seed is being planted. Atheism is more prevalent now than it ever was and is set to continue.. People opt for logic, evolution provides more logic than any religion, religion has thought us many great things and brought about a just society (eh kind of) but its battle with science is hopeless in the long run...religion will decline possibly over a very long period. if Ireland is to be used as an example the opting out of religion is very evident and the snowball has started to gather speed..
i think a key thing is that if you raise a child teaching the science of the world and the theory of evolution the child will never find the logic in religion and never opt that direction however children whom are raised with religion often cant find the logic and opt out...meaning atheism will spread...we all thought the world was flat till we discovered otherwise...we all worshiped the sun and the moon until someone told us about God..now a more sound logical systematic understanding of why we are here is open to us it will be taken seriously!
if anyone has the time id suggest this:
http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyond-belief-science-religion-reason-and-survival

Flamed Diving

pinksoir wrote: »

I've been reading a lot about peak oil lately and all malthusian joking aside, a more localised, farming based social structure seems like a very real eventuality. In fact, you're spot on with the Amish thang; they've been sited as examples of how communities will be organised after cheap supplies of oil and gas are no longer available to the world at large.

You bring the salmon, I'll bring the beans, and we'll get someone to hook us up with some of those 'roast chicken in a can'



*licks chops*

I just roared out laughing at that.

(It's not even cooked!)

pinksoir

Zillah wrote: »

Actually, professional opinion is that there are still massive amounts of oil available, but that they will only become economically viable with future extraction technologies. We have seen a solid trend of reserve underestimations in decades gone past, and time and time again those estimates get brought up again, often hundreds of times over the original estimate. We quite possibly have centuries of oil left. All estimates on how much oil is left are based on current technologies, which is a method that consistently shows itself to be meaningless.

American oil has past peak. As has it's gas reserves. North sea oil is past peak. Global oil is set to be past peak by 2020. Only 14 of the 44 countries that produce oil are still growing. Of course there is massive amounts of oil left, and you're absolutely right, most of it would be unattainable with todays extraction technology. The thing is there has very little progress made on developing new, more efficient equipment. Things like repressurizing oil fields with water can only go so far. Extracting oil requires a huge amount of energy once the natural pressure subsides. One of the biggest percieved problems is that the majority of the remaining oil will be subject to diminishing returns, ie it will cost more than a barrel of oil to produce a barrel of oil. Add to that the fact that a lot of the oil reserves left are non-conventional; sand oils and shale oils. The extraction of these requires much more energy than the extraction of crude oil.

What's more, many of the remaining oil fields are located in politically volatile nations. You only have to look at the OPEC embargo of the 70's to see what an effect such an occurrence would have on the world if the Saudi monarchy, for example, was overthrown by Islamic fundamentalists.

Then there is India and China.

There is also the fact that there are plenty of alternatives, such as nuclear, wind, solar, wave and bio. Combine that with the entrepreneurial spirit of capitalism and we see that it will lead to these becoming more prominent as oil becomes too expensive. The doomsayers of today or no more accurate than the doomsayers of yesterday.

You're correct, nuclear power is a great alternative for electricity. Unfortunately there is great opposition to it democratically. Current nuclear power can only run on the back of an oil based economy. You can't run farming equipment on nuclear power. You can't drive nuclear powered cars. You can't make plastics, fertilizers or pesticides out of nuclear power. The applications for oil are immense, our whole economy is based on oil. Capitalism only exists because cheap oil made it possible. A future without oil will be very different to the present. How can it not be when you take into account that our whole way of life revolves around oil, of which there is no viable alternative, or combination of alternatives.

I am not saying that we will revert to pre-industrial conditions, but I am saying that our communities will be ordered in a very different way, farming will be more localised, the world will become much bigger again (air travel will become a thing of the past), shanty towns will develop around major cities as people won't have cars to commute long distances anymore, governments such as that of the US will become inept. Life will become a lot tougher for the vast majority.

Earth's population has seen an unprecedented boom on the back of the oil economy. From less that a billion in the early 1800's to nearly 7 billion at the turn of this century. How will such a population be sustained when current farming techniques become unsustainable? When long distance trade costs more than it's worth?

All of this may not happen. I don't know any more than you do. The technological breakthroughs of the 20th century couldn't have been conceived of at the beginning of that century, any more than the future developments of this century could been envisioned from now. But anything that I've read has pointed to a pretty bleak future.

faceman

pinksoir wrote: »

American oil has past peak. As has it's gas reserves. North sea oil is past peak. Global oil is set to be past peak by 2020. Only 14 of the 44 countries that produce oil are still growing.

Zillah wrote: »

Actually, professional opinion is that there are still massive amounts of oil available, but that they will only become economically viable with future extraction technologies.

[off-topic] You'd probably like to hear the ramblings of Michael Ruppert. He paints a grim picture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ3r93ELuB4

[/off-topic]

Anyway back on topic, I dont believe there will ever be an end to religion nor would I see a problem with it as long as it is non intrusive to the lives of others who have other beliefs/non beliefs.

pinksoir

Quite grim.

robindch

pinksoir wrote: »

*licks chops*

hmmm... is that Sigourney Weaver in the background?

robindch

Hellm0 wrote: »

So I've been thinking recently, will religion ever die out? [...] as a society becomes more educated and wealthy, superstition must decline. My only question is, will we ever be completely rid of it? And how long until we are?

No, we won't ever be rid of it. As it's the product of an immensely long process of cultural evolution, there's no chance that it's going to disappear completely -- some people are always going to find its simplistic answers appealing, and if they don't, then new simplistic answers will be created that do appeal.

The best we can realistically hope for is that the influence of religion and other forms of organized superstition can, if not eliminated, at least be reduced. It's also quite likely that the automatic, unquestioning respect that many religious people currently feel is due to them and their thoughts will decline.

pinksoir

robindch wrote: »

hmmm... is that Sigourney Weaver in the background?

Darina Allen.

Xluna

Religion will exist so long as there is suffering and death-it's what it survives on.

faceman

Xluna wrote: »

Religion will exist so long as there is suffering and death-it's what it survives on.

Would you care to expand on that? It doesnt make sense.

Excelsior

Well lads, although the secularisation thesis has been thoroughly challenged by:

• the dramatic growth of Christianity in the majority world in the aftermath of the end of colonialism
• the politicisation of Islam around the world
• and the failure for secularisation to take root anywhere other than Europe

I am glad to see that the adherents to that true faith of mid-twentieth century social sciences persist here.

CerebralCortex

Wha?

Excelsior

Sorry. What I was trying to say was:

Putting on a sociologist's hat (and therefore taking off the church leader's hat) there's no evidence religion is going anywhere. It is more prominent in public discourse in the West since the late 1800s, it is more present in devotion around the world and it seems to not be awfully disturbed by the four horsemen of the apocalypse.... (Harris et al)

liamw

faceman wrote: »

Would you care to expand on that? It doesnt make sense.

I don't mean to answer for Xluna, but I'm pretty sure he/she means that religion offers comfort

faceman

liamw wrote: »

I don't mean to answer for Xluna, but I'm pretty sure he/she means that religion offers comfort

Ah sorry, I completely misinterpreted Xluna's post. I thought it was trying to suggest that religion caused all wars and that nonsense.

Sorry Xluna!

Flamed Diving

Excelsior wrote: »

Sorry. What I was trying to say was:

Putting on a sociologist's hat (and therefore taking off the church leader's hat) there's no evidence religion is going anywhere. It is more prominent in public discourse in the West since the late 1800s, it is more present in devotion around the world and it seems to not be awfully disturbed by the four horsemen of the apocalypse.... (Harris et al)

http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/CN/people.html

That's 767,000,000 non-religious Asians right there. Of course, to those who have half-read a Wikipedia article, most of Asia is difficult to classify as "atheist or not" simply due to the nature of the religions in that region, where one can be religious, and not believe in god/s.

But sure, using models designed for European cultures and applying them to any region is bound to work, right? I'm sure they must have said that on the Corn Flakes box from where your Sociology degree originates.

Dades

Excelsior, the rise of Christianity in places like Africa does not equate to a rise in religion - just in your religion at the expense of those regions' existing cultures. Just because they used to shake feathered sticks - doesn't mean they didn't have a religion already.

Linoge

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Whatever you say, Senor Malthus.

ha! Thats exactly what i was thinking!:D

philologos

Flamed Diving wrote: »

http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/CN/people.html

That's 767,000,000 non-religious Asians right there. Of course, to those who have half-read a Wikipedia article, most of Asia is difficult to classify as "atheist or not" simply due to the nature of the religions in that region, where one can be religious, and not believe in god/s.

China has a Communist history, hence why people are more predisposed to be non-religious, it's pretty much the same in Estonia, and the Czech Republic for example.

Flamed Diving wrote: »

But sure, using models designed for European cultures and applying them to any region is bound to work, right? I'm sure they must have said that on the Corn Flakes box from where your Sociology degree originates.

Isn't it an arrogant notion to assume that our Western culture is superior to all others?