Ireland Outhalf Vs Australia

sedantez

Well, it went against our recent poll on the site where 70% of us felt that Sexton deserved to start.

I think Kidney has played his safe hand - O'Gara has the experience not to crack under the pressure of such a big game. And if he does.... bring on the young fella and let him step up.

I think Sexton is a better player at the moment but I also think O'Gara deserves to start for Ireland Vs Australia. Will be interesting to see how he performs.

SomeFool

magotch07

i think the rite decision was made ROG to start the series while i think if Sexton steps up he will finish the series

siochain

sexton is the furture and should be give as much exposure as possible.

ScrubsfanChris

Mods please close thread now!
This disscusion always gets out of hand.

_blank_

Leaving this open for now.

The first person to even think about stepping over the line will get a week's ban, everyone else a month.

Stev_o

Honestly it's a safe compromise, ROG gets one last shot at proving why he should be Ireland's number one OH and Sexton will come on as a great impact player to win his first cap and hopefully add a new dimension to our backline.

Everyone wins. Hope they both play well.

AdeT

Well, it must have been a tough decision. If the rugby public and fans have been dissecting performance we can only imagine how much footage and stats Kidney and his staff have been going through.

I just wonder if ROG sat down with DK and said something along the lines of...listen my performances have been poor recently and Sexton's have been good. I understand if you start him but I've put alot into this team and want to prove that I'm the Number 1 OH in the country. If I don't show that, then drop me, do it publicly if you have to...

I know alot of coaches would respond to that with a "go on then, you've got 1 chance"

Cuchulain

Stev_o wrote: »

Honestly it's a safe compromise, ROG gets one last shot at proving why he should be Ireland's number one OH and Sexton will come on as a great impact player to win his first cap and hopefully add a new dimension to our backline.

Everyone wins. Hope they both play well.

Thats a good way of looking at it. I initially was peeved that Sexton didnt start but ROG should rightly have a bit at the cherry. After all only 8 months ago he did win us the Grand Slam.

Sexton doesnt have a full ireland cap yet so blooding from the outset against the Aussies might be foolhardy.

Stev_o

Cuchulain wrote: »

Thats a good way of looking at it. I initially was peeved that Sexton didnt start but ROG should rightly have a bit at the cherry. After all only 8 months ago he did win us the Grand Slam.

Sexton doesnt have a full ireland cap yet so blooding from the outset against the Aussies might be foolhardy.

Well look at it this way the last time ROG had someone breathing down his neck for the Irish jersey was Humprheys and back then ROG was playing very well. What DK is doing now is hopefully trying to recreate that. He ll know that his necks on the chopping board now and that it's time to deliver the goods like he's done before.

So if ROG is upping his game that ll mean that Sexton will have to do the same to his which is fascinating because his repertoire is very high it ll be interesting to see what he can add to it.

In all this should (at least in theory) give us two extremely good OH's choices who can win us games.

buck65

This decision also protects Sexton to an extent. Pick him now and the pressure will be huge. Bring him into the game - less pressure. Remember Croke Park in May?
TBH I was hoping that Sexton would start, baptism by fire and all that.

pappyodaniel

Stev_o wrote: »

Well look at it this way the last time ROG had someone breathing down his neck for the Irish jersey was Humprheys and back then ROG was playing very well. What DK is doing now is hopefully trying to recreate that. He ll know that his necks on the chopping board now and that it's time to deliver the goods like he's done before.

So if ROG is upping his game that ll mean that Sexton will have to do the same to his which is fascinating because his repertoire is very high it ll be interesting to see what he can add to it.

In all this should (at least in theory) give us two extremely good OH's choices who can win us games.

I agree with you, back when Humphreys and RO'G were competing for the same jersey it did bring the best out of each player. It doesn't seem to be working at Munster though as Warwick's form has been very impressive and RO'G's form hasn't been improving with Warwick breathing down his neck.

Besides my own opinion on who should start, I have complete faith in DK AND his choice for who plays where. If he feels RO'G is the most suitable candidate for the job, then in all probability, he is right. Depending on what type of game it is, Sexton will deservedly get some game-time.

I seriously can't wait for this game!!!

Amazotheamazing

Interesting to see how far Keatley's star has fallen in the last 12 months. No one seems to rate him as much of an Irish option at the minute but skillswise he's possibly the most talented, can kick better than Sexton, faster than either Sexton or O'Gara, seems to have lovely hands. I suppose he's in the same Connacht netherworld as Carr.

Snickers Man

XXXXX wrote:

Mods please close thread now!
This disscusion always gets out of hand.

OP blotted out just to show that this is a retort to a post not a poster but MODS can we please consider banning people who say "Shut this thread now!" after the first few posts? Far too many perfectly respectable threads , especially in this forum, get shut off way too early thanks to the eye rolling dismissive attitude of some posters who seem not to like the idea of a debate at all.

They remind me so much of the type of self righteous arrogant oik so prevalent in student politics, at least in the days of my youth, who would try to shout down dissenting voices with dismissive curt responses that never moved beyond the eloquence of "Tut Humph!"

Let the debate continue. It is a PERFECTLY APPROPRIATE debate to have at this point in time.

And if you don't like debate, what the hell are you doing on a DISCUSSION forum in the first place?

[/tuppence]

Munster Blogger

Kidney couldn't just drop our GS winning outhalf and have Sexton walk on. If ROG plays bad im 100% Sexton will get his chance and I would like to see him start v Fiji, he has some promise but no experience

poncho000

a team should always be picked on form, not sentiment

Munster Blogger

poncho000 wrote: »

a team should always be picked on form, not sentiment

Ian McGeechan reckons this is why he lost the first test. He pick on form and those players weren't physical enough to beat the BOKS. He said he should have factored size into it as well. I think in this case, form is with Sexton but ROG has so much experience safe to start with him as he would bring much off the bench. I think Kidney will look at Sexton as an Impact sub if all goes south. Bring him on with 15 to go give him some experience with an aim of starting him against Fiji and in some 6 nations matches

Amazotheamazing

poncho000 wrote: »

a team should always be picked on form, not sentiment

Form is important but other factors are important too. O'Leary and Paddy Wallace don't have a lot of experience at International level, O'Gara does. If Stringer and D'Arcy were to start, maybe you could start Sexton, but then again, Stringer and Sexton would not have played together before, so is a test against Oz the best place to go with them? Maybe bring in Reddan, but again, Sexton and Reddan haven't played much together, and Reddan isn't very experienced at test level either.

People need to stop looking at each players as individuals and start asking about units, etc.

subfreq

Slowly slowly catchy monkey. Sexton is for the first time on the bench of the senior team. Trains to know all the plays and be inside the dressing room and part of it all for the first time.

Senior management are obviously getting a proper look now and letting him come in slowly which is probably a good thing. I know some posters don't like it but the comparison to how Cipriani was fast tracked so dismally does spring to mind.

Only weird thing is that the Aussie game would be an easier first cap than the SAF one if they chose to throw him in there.

I would guess now that ROG starts both and JS gets time from the bench in them.

Johnny Utah

Sure, why can't they both play?

Give them a half each; it's a game of 2 halves, you know!

Iron Hide

Hopefully Sexton will get some decent gametime, 30 mins or more methinks... Would put him in a good position to start against Fiji then..

little173

poncho000 wrote: »

a team should always be picked on form, not sentiment

How would you define form? Over what period? It really is not that simple, past experience and performance has to play some part.

siltirocker

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Interesting to see how far Keatley's star has fallen in the last 12 months. No one seems to rate him as much of an Irish option at the minute but skillswise he's possibly the most talented, can kick better than Sexton, faster than either Sexton or O'Gara, seems to have lovely hands. I suppose he's in the same Connacht netherworld as Carr.

I felt the only reason people from outside Connacht have stopped rating him is because others from their own province have started having similiar form (around new year gone, people where screaming for him to return home & then again when Dr. Phil made his decision) and with ROG, well, you don't want big up the fourth in line, especially when your number one is in v.poor form.
Keatley had a dip in form at the end of last season but has been immense since winning back his jersey in spectacular match winning fashion. Like how he won the jersey last season from that year's 'IRFU unsung hero' winner Andy Dunne.

Spore

Munster Blogger wrote: »

Ian McGeechan reckons this is why he lost the first test. [...] He said he should have factored size into it as well.

If we're going by size why aren't the English team doing better than they are? Geech chose on form and should be decided upon as such. I thought the Lions acquitted themselves quite well considering the talent or-lack-there-of at disposal.

Any management will always choose reputation over form on the big occasions. While I would like Sexton to get a start ASAP, I think he and Ireland aren't losing anything by him being on the bench. If ROG has a shocker, Sexton will come on. But only if. I don't believe ROG will have anything like a shocker, he's never been bad in every facet of play simultaneously - he's had poor defensive games while kicking perfect, some great distribution games while defensivesly poor. But for Christ's sake he's been our only ten for about five years! Doesn't that count for something?

Spore

siltirocker wrote: »

I felt the only reason people from outside Connacht have stopped rating him is because others from their own province have started having similiar form (around new year gone, people where screaming for him to return home & then again when Dr. Phil made his decision) and with ROG, well, you don't want big up the fourth in line, especially when your number one is in v.poor form.
Keatley had a dip in form at the end of last season but has been immense since winning back his jersey in spectacular match winning fashion. Like how he won the jersey last season from that year's 'IRFU unsung hero' winner Andy Dunne.

Keatley looked promising for about a month - until Sexton became the consummate number ten in regards to kicking, defending and game breaking, plus Sexton's played in the highest echelons of club rugby - the Heineken Cup final, which he came through, cool as a cucumber. Whereas Keatley has been doing that ridiculous leg-pump thingy (x 6) for his kicks... Keatley playing standard rugby for Connaught = not a hope in hell for Ireland.

Amazotheamazing

siltirocker wrote: »

I felt the only reason people from outside Connacht have stopped rating him is because others from their own province have started having similiar form (around new year gone, people where screaming for him to return home & then again when Dr. Phil made his decision) and with ROG, well, you don't want big up the fourth in line, especially when your number one is in v.poor form.
Keatley had a dip in form at the end of last season but has been immense since winning back his jersey in spectacular match winning fashion. Like how he won the jersey last season from that year's 'IRFU unsung hero' winner Andy Dunne.

I tend to agree, there's a lot to work on in Keatley's game, but he has all the raw materials to be O'Gara's long term successor. Would love to see him move to Munster to replace O'Gara. It's a pity Ian Humph's is getting a game ahead of him tomorrow, Humph's will never be an option for Ireland, imo.

siltirocker

Spore wrote: »

Keatley looked promising for about a month - until Sexton became the consummate number ten in regards to kicking, defending and game breaking, plus Sexton's played in the highest echelons of club rugby - the Heineken Cup final, which he came through, cool as a cucumber. Whereas Keatley has been doing that ridiculous leg-pump thingy (x 6) for his kicks... Keatley playing standard rugby for Connaught = not a hope in hell for Ireland.

He is by miles the best defensive 10 in Ireland, light years IMO. Although i don't think that's up for debate.


I have taken no regard to what you have said due to the part in bold. If you had watched Ian Keatley, you would know he hasn't done that since mid-Spring. If you had watched Ian Keatley, you would know how to fairly comment on his game.
As you have not watched Ian Keatley (since mid-Spring, i can presume:D), you wouldn't know how to fairly comment on his game.


The part underlined, i see it and raise you a Flannery, Cronin & Reddan all in our 22 for Saturday.



btw dude, its Connacht man, c'mon!:(

Connaught is the Queen's name for the province.

buck65

Keatley has reduced his time before kicks, anyone familiar with the ML would have known this, too many on this forum talk thrugh their arse.

murphym7

A thread about ROG versus Sexton by any other name is still a thread about ROG versus Sexton. I have a tenner on the thread being shut down by 17:00!! Anybody want a bit of that action?:D:D

buck65

You're on!
I think both Munster and Leinster fans realise that this was going to be the call from Kidney.

Auvers

murphym7 wrote: »

A thread about ROG versus Sexton by any other name is still a thread about ROG versus Sexton. I have a tenner on the thread being shut down by 17:00!! Anybody want a bit of that action?:D:D

indeed

maybe there should be a sticky "bitch about ROG" thread where all the 15 year olds can go and vent thier frustrations, so we can all be free of this wankery

Then I can choose to have a brief glace every now and then to have a good giggle

Cuchulain

For gods sake, this is the first time in a decade that somebody has seriously challenged ROG for the 10 spot. Its a perfectly valid discussion on a rugby forum after all.

Its hard to say if Sexton is as good as ROG at such a young age. ROG has served Ireland well for many years and has been our best outhalf ever. Its natural that players decline slightly when they get older and people should be relieved that we actually have a proper 10 to fill ROGs boots when his international career does eventually end.

Oafley Jones

poncho000 wrote: »

a team should always be picked on form, not sentiment

Pretty much why I wanted BOD dropped when he was in the doldrums and look how that turned out. I'd have started Sexton, but I trust Kidney won't hesitate to pull ROG off if he's playing poorly.

It is interesting to see that Planet rugby predict a "field day" from ROG

If they don't and Australia lose possession in their own territory, and then continue to infringe at the breakdown... expect Ronan O'Gara to have a field day at Croke Park.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_5691823,00.html

Podge_irl

Oafley Jones wrote: »

Pretty much why I wanted BOD dropped when he was in the doldrums and look how that turned out. I'd have started Sexton, but I trust Kidney won't hesitate to pull ROG off if he's playing poorly.

Difference being BOD was poor by his standards, but still playing reasonably well as a whole. His defence never dipped below excellent, even his if his attack was slightly stunted. There was also no obvious replacement for him. I don't think they are comparable situations, despite people's attempts to draw parallels.

Crash

buck65 wrote:

Keatley has reduced his time before kicks, anyone familiar with the ML would have known this, too many on this forum talk thrugh their arse.

One of the wonderful things about this years ML tv schedule - Its been the guts of 8 months since i've seen Connacht play

murphym7

Cuchulain wrote: »

For gods sake, this is the first time in a decade that somebody has seriously challenged ROG for the 10 spot. Its a perfectly valid discussion on a rugby forum after all.

Its hard to say if Sexton is as good as ROG at such a young age. ROG has served Ireland well for many years and has been our best outhalf ever. Its natural that players decline slightly when they get older and people should be relieved that we actually have a proper 10 to fill ROGs boots when his international career does eventually end.

Have you not looked at previous discussions we have tried to have on this topic already? This will always end up in a pissing match. Some folks just can't help themselves.

magotch07

i think its the rite decision....sexton will get game time in each match i reckon most likely start against fiji....but i reckon ROG will have a stormer on sunday....this competition for places is only a good thing for irl in the long run

SpAcEd OuT

murphym7 wrote: »

Have you not looked at previous discussions we have tried to have on this topic already? This will always end up in a pissing match. Some folks just can't help themselves.

What doesn't help is posters like you who feel the need to make IBTL type comments. If you don't want to discuss the topic at hand then don't post.

Anyway, Sexton earned his start and this was a great chance to give him experience against a top team before the 6 Nations. Throwing him in against Fiji is meaningless unless Ireland play their first 15 (which I doubt they will) and starting him against the world champions on his debut is a big ask. Honestly I wouldn't be suprised if Sexton didn't start any of these AI tests. If O'Gara has a poor game I am almost positive Kidney will give him a chance to redeem himself against Fiji.

buck65

:DMurphy is just trying to get the thread closed, he has a vested interest

buck65

magotch07 wrote: »

..but i reckon ROG will have a stormer on sunday....this competition for places is only a good thing for irl in the long run

I actually doubt he will have a stormer, tbh if he gets through 60 minutes without missing his kicks and keeping it simple I will be happy.

magotch07

buck65 wrote: »

I actually doubt he will have a stormer, tbh if he gets through 60 minutes without missing his kicks and keeping it simple I will be happy.

oh yeah i agree with you there about keeping it simple, but i reckon he could get alot of kicks and if he nails them he will be have a "stormer"

Iron Hide

A teams designated kicker nailing a good percentage of his kicks hardly qualifys as a stormer imo,

Otacon

Red Storm wrote: »

A teams designated kicker nailing a good percentage of his kicks hardly qualifys as a stormer imo,

Compared to previous form it could be.

louthandproud

Stev_o wrote: »

Honestly it's a safe compromise, ROG gets one last shot at proving why he should be Ireland's number one OH and Sexton will come on as a great impact player to win his first cap and hopefully add a new dimension to our backline.

Everyone wins. Hope they both play well.

Absolutely true, ROG is the incumbent Sexton is or should be the heir to the position.

I wouldn't have expected Sexton to go from zero caps to first choice 10 in one team selection, that wouldn't even have been fair on Sexton himself.

Unless Sexton messes up badly, he is quite obviously going to be Ireland's number one 10, probably by the end of this AI series too, regardless of what ROG does.

For now lets hope everyone plays well and we give a great account of ourselves in these AI's.

anonymous_joe

siltirocker wrote: »

btw dude, its Connacht man, c'mon!:(

Connaught is the Queen's name for the province.

Madly off topic, but we don't call the others Ulainn, Laighin and (this is embarrassing. Mhuain? Ah crap.) It is just an Anglicised version. Though I do prefer the Irish, sounds more natural.

On topic -

I'm really looking forward to France's game with South Africa tonight, and very interested in the French 10. Trinh-Duc's early game's for France really did look like the early games of a very young inexperienced player. He certainly had the talent, but he was a kid playing international rugby, where most of those around him, especially in the very conservative Irish and Scottish teams (less so the Welsh, and definitely not the English, while the Italians have always tended towards pragmatism, with a reliance upon experience thrust upon them) had bags of experience. Ireland had O'Gara, Scotland the likes of Parks (and very recently Godman). England wouldn't have dropped Wilkinson either if they'd had the choice.

Certainly it's been a tough education, and an on-going one.

The issue that springs to mind though, at least to me, is when do you give youth a chance? I remember O'Gara and a whole host of others getting the nod against Scotland many moons ago when a much worse Gatland's career was nearly over, and he was about to be given the heave-ho by his own players and coaches.

At this point in time, O'Gara's 32. He is now experienced. He's played well at every level of the game bar the WC. (And other than O'Driscoll at 07, very few Irish players in the pro era have done well at a WC.)

The point is, throw in someone with less experience, the obvious candidates being Sexton, iHumph, Staunton (I guess) and Keatley. Any of that group is inexperienced at an international level.

It's fast reaching a stage where we will have to commit inexperienced players to international matches. Personally, I would much rather that happened now than in the 6N.

Otacon

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The issue that springs to mind though, at least to me, is when do you give youth a chance? I remember O'Gara and a whole host of others getting the nod against Scotland many moons ago when a much worse Gatland's career was nearly over, and he was about to be given the heave-ho by his own players and coaches.

At this point in time, O'Gara's 32. He is now experienced. He's played well at every level of the game bar the WC. (And other than O'Driscoll at 07, very few Irish players in the pro era have done well at a WC.)

The point is, throw in someone with less experience, the obvious candidates being Sexton, iHumph, Staunton (I guess) and Keatley. Any of that group is inexperienced at an international level.

It's fast reaching a stage where we will have to commit inexperienced players to international matches. Personally, I would much rather that happened now than in the 6N.

You seem to be under the impression that because ROG is starting this game, he will be starting the others. I get the impression that Kidney is going to give Sexton his chance in this game [20 or so minutes]. He will then start him against Fiji, and probably give him the full game. Then, a decision will be made regarding the SA game.

In fact, I think this will probably happen for Reddan/TOL and Wallace/D'arcy as well.

anonymous_joe

Otacon wrote: »

You seem to be under the impression that because ROG is starting this game, he will be starting the others. I get the impression that Kidney is going to give Sexton his chance in this game [20 or so minutes]. He will then start him against Fiji, and probably give him the full game. Then, a decision will be made regarding the SA game.

In fact, I think this will probably happen for Reddan/TOL and Wallace/D'arcy as well.

I am under that impression tbh.

Kidney's a great coach, but he's a bit conservative. I think that (like) Eddie is his major weakness. Where he really excels in is delegation. Both were/are fantastic coaches, but they still aren't perfect. Who is?

I actually think tactically this game'd suit Sexton more than the Saffer one. Australia defend out wide very very well. O'Gara's got a lovely pass when it comes to letting the outside backs move, but he offers very little in attack as an individual. Given that Australia excel at stopping teams out wide, someone who can cause a threat and make the odd break against them wouldn't go amiss.

Then again, this is Kidney, I reckon we're going to kick for territory for the next three games. It won us a Grand Slam after all.

buck65

Well I could see Sexton and D'arcy starting but Reddan V O Leary ? Reddan is well behind Tomas in the reckonings and will do well to keep his place in the squad.

sedantez

I reckon the Aussies will be talking about O'Gara's poor defence. Watch Rocky Elsom- first crash ball will be straight for O'Gara.

Hopefully O'Gara has learned something from watching Wilkinson's defence against the Aussies - that has to be the single best defensive performance from an outhalf I've ever seen.

Peter B

subfreq wrote: »

Slowly slowly catchy monkey. Sexton is for the first time on the bench of the senior team. Trains to know all the plays and be inside the dressing room and part of it all for the first time.

Senior management are obviously getting a proper look now and letting him come in slowly which is probably a good thing. I know some posters don't like it but the comparison to how Cipriani was fast tracked so dismally does spring to mind.

Only weird thing is that the Aussie game would be an easier first cap than the SAF one if they chose to throw him in there.

I would guess now that ROG starts both and JS gets time from the bench in them.

In regards to the bit in bold. I agree and think Tait playing for England against Wales is another example as well as Earls playing for the Lions. While these players were on form its best for them to be eased in slowly. IMO obviously!